Thai Airways Will Not Move To Don Muang Airport

[qualtrough]

I am flabbergasted that so many of you have been suckers for what is in essence a conflict between two or more power groups. Group A are those who benefit from the new airport, and Group B are those who lost out due to the move. The safety issues were nothing more than ploys used by Group B and their supporters to wrest back the money and power they enjoyed at Don Muang. If there was any substance to the safety claims that have been bandied about here and elsewhere the major carriers would have pulled operations faster than you can blink your eye. The fact that the airlines have almost en-masse decided against a move speaks volumes. The new airport is here to stay-deal with it.

[yoshiwara]

.....so you think the Thai airport authorities are any worse than the corporate culture prevailing at BP? that's BRITISH petroleum to those who weren't sure........

[britmaveric]

Time will tell, and mean while massive structural problems will only get worse.

[bri1guy]

When do these other smaller airlines fly out of don muaang again< I fly in and out of both I guess in two weeks FINAIR <& air asia are there still all airline offices availible?

[moobie]

Perhaps the reason that "Thai Engineers - Only" will look at the problem opposed to an International team is one of silence on the "maybe" problems. The latter being less likely to keep quiet on the true state of play?

[Kimera]

The umpteen billion baht question is: "Are there voids under the runways, or not?".

I suspect if there is they will be full of water

[DrDweeb]

As a matter of passing interest;

AMS is several metres BELOW sea level.

AMS has 5 runways.

Holland is, in fact, a swamp.

I propose that we accept as a given that it is possible to build concrete runways on a swamp.

It was reported to me (technically hearsay, since I did not second source the report) that Runway 5 (that's the one that is 12-15 minutes drive in a 747 from the terminal) delaminated last year, spraying concrete into 2 of the 3 engines of a 3 engine passenger jet during landing. It was subsequently closed for repairs.

I propose that we accept as a given that building concrete runways on a swamp is not an exact science.

I think I have been through Suvarnabhumi 10 times now, both domestic and international. IIRC my first arrival, was within 10 days of opening. From "wheels down" until I was seated in a taxi was 35 minutes. This is a very impressive number. I cannot complain, and is certainly better than I had been expecting. It was a bit longer last time, because my baggage was, literally, the last piece out

On my recent departure, like 10 days ago, the time from Sukh. Soi 4 at "Bus Stop" at 22:00, until I had passed through customs, was precisely 30 minutes. This figure, curiously, is more or less identical with the same journey to Don Muang.

So guys, really, except for the stupid monochrome signs which are difficult to spot and often occluded, lack of lavatories, an outdated design and dubious aesthetics, Suvarnabhumi is actually not too bad. Writing as someone who passed through airports 100+ times last year, I can personally vouch for the statement that there are plenty of worse ones to visit. Jetways break, concrete is not an exact science (I used to work for Pioneer concrete, so I have some specific knowledge here), and mega projects always have some issues.

Anyone recall the pr Christmas baggage disaster at LHR ?? My daughter got her luggage back last week. She transited LHR 19 Dec !!! I do not think any airport in the world can match that disaster. Millions of pieces of lost/delayed baggage.

So I think we should chill, and let the politics be politics. It is, after all, Thailand - LOS.

I now return you to your regular programming.

[peekint]

I'm sorry the Thai engineering group is so sensitive about nationality. Actually, this is quite un-engineery. The foundation of Engineering is physics and chemistry, which respect no borders. The response by an engineering group should be "We are qualified because" or "We are not qualified because" and list the reasons/qualifications. The folks who hire them (the gov't) can then make a decision. In fact, in this case, due diligence would suggest that, even if the local engineers were qualified to do the job, the fact that it is ALREADY so botched means independent oversight is required. That independent oversight should be chosen based on a simple criterion: chose the best, most experienced in the world to review all decisions, plans, and executions. There is too much at stake in money and lives to allow this to be executed on the basis of "face" and "national pride".

No one loses face if the job is done right.

I'm reminded of the problems China Airlines, the national carrier of Taiwan, was having some years ago. They lost several aircraft, with many casualties. As a last straw, they put a brand new 747 in Hong Kong harbour, albeit with no injuries. The government said "enough!" and hired Lufthansa to manage their safety and operations. In which way did they lose more face? By putting a 747 in Hong Kong Harbour, where it floated for 6 months at the end of the runway while salvage operations were carried out, or by becoming one of the most respected Asian carriers after fixing the problem? The world hailed their move to do "what was right". The world would do the same for Thailand.

A false sense of pride is making Thailand the laughing stock of the world. Thailand has many many things to be proud of. Perhaps one day Thailand will be proud of the fact that it knows when to ask for help. Or will hubris be it's tragic flaw?

[Bruce1]

I like the new airport and flew out of it last Thursday night for Brisbane. It was fine. The only improvements I'd like to see are an arrivals/departure board on the restaurant level and rubber strips laid in the gaps on the floor of the pedestrian bridges to the car park so the trolley wheels don't get stuck in them. I ignore the overpriced King Power franchises, so their excessive floor space means nothing to me.

As for the runways, I expect the problem isn't the engineering design, which I'm sure met the required standards, but the way it was actually constructed. I gather from various reports that inferior grade sand was used and they didn't lay enough drainage under the runways, allegedly because they were afraid of flooding neighbouring residents. I read somewhere they're going to create openings in the sides of the sealed drains to let the water ooze out into the drains when it's not raining.

So the real issue would be corruption and failure to follow the engineering designs, I would think.

BTW several workers were repairing the airbridge we used to get onto our aircraft last Thursday night, so that doesn't seem a big issue.

Don't forget also that politically its in the interests of the current regime to make the airport seem as bad as possible since they need to find reasons to point the finger at the Thaksin Govt. to justify their decision to stage the coup and overthrow it. Heads have rolled, face is being restored, so now life can go on.

If I was an airline I'd want to be at the new airport, not relegated to a backwater at Don Muang, which was a very tacky place, where my passengers would complain about having to transfer between airports.

So don't panic, its all part of the bigger tapestry of life ...

[pap]

The nationality of the Engineers is not important. The quality of the Engineers is. Thailand has capable people in all areas. They also have incompetent people in all areas. Going with a Thai engineer over another qualified engineer stated as it was above is the wrong reason to use a Thai engineer. He should be chosen because he can do the job. Not because Vira Mavijak has a strange sense of what the nation should be embarrassed about.

I would expect the Council of Engineers President Vira to say something like this. He has an agenda specific to his title.

For a project of this nature it would be important to hire Engineers to cross check each others work. This is the norm on most major projects. The end result is what the contractor builds. This is usually where the failures occur. Not on the Engineering side.

[pap]

P - L - E - A - S - E not the "loss of face" argument again!!

1) It is openly admitted that corruption (this only happened under Thaksin of course! ) was the cause of all and any problems

2) There are many reports about cracks in the runways etc - it does appear to have been built on a swamp! Of course this is a matter of concern!

3) Major international airlines will be watching and considereing what to do

4) Thailand cannot lay claim to the greatest safety standards in the world

5) Potential visitors will be looking at this along with other scares such as the coup itself, Tsunami's and the apparent attempts to further restrict nightlife entertainment etc

Anyway how could it be "loss of face" if , as I am sure they would - the internation experts "confirm" the minor nature of the problem- or is the real fear that, IF they found it to be more serious, the authorities would not be able to hide the problem as suggested in the article

Does it have to wait for "loss of life" before they will stop worrying about "loss of face"

Yes,unfortunately,the NTSB in the u.s. and the EASA in Europe have a saying called(i think) "The body prerogative",or something similar,

basically all of the major safety leaps in air travel and aircraft maintenance have come about as a result of catastrophic loss of life,

its been proven time and time again that the biggest companies in the world will routinely choose the "cheap" option,rather than the "safe" one,

and its only after a couple of hundred people get turned into "statistics"(the cost of possible lawsuits is compared to the cost of the repair/upgrade/maintenance change),and its ONLY after A. is proven to cost MORE than B. that they institute safety protocols,strengthen parts,shorten "between maintenance" time etc,

why should we be surprised that money(and face)is coming before safety at suvarna?

I'll tell you what though,

I hope none of us is on that plane thats going to inevitably get torn to pieces because a "Tiny" crack in a runway(read 6 foot gape) rips off the landing gear when the plane is taking off,or landing.

Air travel is a very emotional subject,because once you're on a plane you have no control(unless you're a pilot ),and unlike a car,or boat its an "All or nothing" proposition in people's minds,

we all(erroneously in fact) think that either we get there safely,without incident,or we die horribly in a huge fireball ,

in fact a lot of air crashes are survivable(at least,the INITIAL impact is survivable),and blind panic kills as many people as smoke or impact damage...but its just "plane" wrong that the risks we already face as air passengers be compounded by a litany of errors,denial,corruption,and false pride.

depressing post,I know!,but sadly true...

I wouldn't worry much about cracks breaking off landing gear. I would be a bit concerned about passing gravel from the cracks through the engine though. The engines are geared to take a bit of abuse however.

[qualtrough]

[snip]

Don't forget also that politically its in the interests of the current regime to make the airport seem as bad as possible since they need to find reasons to point the finger at the Thaksin Govt. to justify their decision to stage the coup and overthrow it. Heads have rolled, face is being restored, so now life can go on.

If I was an airline I'd want to be at the new airport, not relegated to a backwater at Don Muang, which was a very tacky place, where my passengers would complain about having to transfer between airports.

So don't panic, its all part of the bigger tapestry of life ...

Right on the money. I have been saying this on this thread and a previous one, but you summed it all up very nicely--and a bit more tactfully than I did.

[robint]

quote

Council of Engineers President Vira Mavijak also said yesterday that Thai engineers are capable of fixing the problems at Suvarnabhumi without any help from foreign experts. He is against the Airports of Thailand chairman Gen Saprang Kalayanamitr's idea of appointing foreign engineers for the job, citing it would be a disgrace to the country.

unquoite

that man needs the sack, appalling intellectual arrogance

as a retired professional engineer, such cant makes me sick

as you mature, you realise that the more you know, the more you realise how little you know.

peer review and cross checking with criticism is an essential element of good design work

of course these tenets are an anathema to the closed hierarchical (boss is never wrong) culture

I never met a thai engineer with the intellectual entegrity matching up to a gerbil, too busy looking good and licking ass. in the international arena they would have their ass kicked out pdq

of course the real reason is that they dont want the truth to leak out and spoil any corruption repair contracts 555

[markg]

It's actually quite easy to build ANYTHING on a swamp.

Though it isnt cheap.

I said it's easy - but it isnt cheap.

You just pile down to bedrock and let the piles support it.

Imagine a traditional seaside pier, of which the UK used to have many and now doesnt., cos no one goes on holiday there anymore.

They were built in victorian times, going out, over sand and sea.

They were built using WOODEN piles.

And some of them are still standing.

The piles were banged in til they hit bedrock. Thats why they dont move.

And they deal with the tide coming in and going out twice a day. For hundreds of years.

Its a similar deal when building a runway on a swamp.

In fact, the more i think of it, the traditional English piers and the new airport have many similarities.

Both are built over a none supportive environments and both have halls of hilarity at the ends of them. The piers halls of hilarity and smoke and mirrors can only take a few hundred people, whilst the airport's takes nearly 70 million.

[Livinginexile]

I fail to understand their reasoning sometimes. The idea of foreign engineers being a disgrace to the nation?!!! I think the airport itself has been a disgrace to the nation. Outside engineers could only bring credibility to any repairs. I don't think the work needs to be done by foreigners, but some oversight, some supervision some expertise would probably make a lot of people feel more comfortable.

You know nothing of what you speak.

I am an engineer and I worked on the new airport for 2 years.

ALL work was checked and certified as per International regulations by the international governing body. All concrete pours were checked as the runways were being built. All runways have cracks!

Can't you understand! this is all about the junta trying to make the Thaksin regeme look bad. Thailand has a fantastic new airport.

[Livinginexile]

I fail to understand their reasoning sometimes. The idea of foreign engineers being a disgrace to the nation?!!! I think the airport itself has been a disgrace to the nation. Outside engineers could only bring credibility to any repairs. I don't think the work needs to be done by foreigners, but some oversight, some supervision some expertise would probably make a lot of people feel more comfortable.

You know nothing of what you speak.

I am an engineer and I worked on the new airport for 2 years.

ALL work was checked and certified as per International regulations by the international governing body. All concrete pours were checked as the runways were being built. All runways have cracks!

Can't you understand! this is all about the junta trying to make the Thaksin regeme look bad. Thailand has a fantastic new airport.

Sorry Scott, I responded to the wrong post. My reply was not meant for your comments.

[Bagwan]

Come on folks, lets get real. This is Thailand and the prime source of problems at Cobra Swamp is that evil spirits have been at work ever since construction began. This was confirmed by the Transport Minister about two years ago when he made an inspection tour and said he had seen evil spirits lurking there. His view was backed up by a contractor who added that every time one of his lorries left the beaten track it mysteriously sank into the ground. I suspect that the feng shui of Thaksin's Folly is out of kilter too and suggest that maybe the runways should be moved through ninety degrees. This could easily be achieved within, oh I don't know, maybe another fifty years.

Anybody who thinks that a tour of inspection may be linked in any way to the collection of the latest instalment of 'tea money' should be ashamed of himself.

That any credence to the utterings of the apologist for Thai engineers be given is misplaced. The world and his wife knows how examinations are passed and credentials obtained in Thailand. The same parameters are in force for employment and advancement. The Shinawatra siblings are ample proof of this.

It is worth bearing in mind that it was a British company that walked off the waste water project at the initial stage that after several billions of baht, and God knows how long, is now recognised for the disaster that it is. The 'masterminds' kept this well under wraps of course as did their brothers in regard to the bird flu business. Honesty, straight dealing, openness by the poo yai? Then I'm the fairy on top of the Christmas tree.

At times I could cry for the good ordinary folk of Thailand whose suffering under the heels of 'the elite' continues unabated.

[markg]

That any credence to the utterings of the apologist for Thai engineers be given is misplaced. The world and his wife knows how examinations are passed and credentials obtained in Thailand. The same parameters are in force for employment and advancement. The Shinawatra siblings are ample proof of this.

Honesty, straight dealing, openness by the poo yai? Then I'm the fairy on top of the Christmas tree.

At times I could cry for the good ordinary folk of Thailand whose suffering under the heels of 'the elite' continues unabated.

This is shocking news to me. Shortly, all teachers in Thailand will have to do a Thai Cultural Awareness course, (i kid you not) and one of the modules is Thai Professional Ethics, (again, i kid you not). Is this the sort of thing we will learn then? I'm shocked and stunned.

[thaimat]

I fail to understand their reasoning sometimes. The idea of foreign engineers being a disgrace to the nation?!!! I think the airport itself has been a disgrace to the nation. Outside engineers could only bring credibility to any repairs. I don't think the work needs to be done by foreigners, but some oversight, some supervision some expertise would probably make a lot of people feel more comfortable.

You know nothing of what you speak.

I am an engineer and I worked on the new airport for 2 years.

ALL work was checked and certified as per International regulations by the international governing body. All concrete pours were checked as the runways were being built. All runways have cracks!

Can't you understand! this is all about the junta trying to make the Thaksin regeme look bad. Thailand has a fantastic new airport.

So the 8" wide, 6" deep "grooves" that run the length and width of one runway, (picture can be found in an earlier thread here), aren't a problem? They sure look like they could break a wheel off of any jet not landing perfectly straight into them. The softness of the asphalt, an incorrect mix reported earlier, will what, grow stronger with age? The drainage issue, a problem during dry season, and a bigger problem during rainy season's no big deal? The other cracks that all earlier reports said , (going back to before the airport opened), were a safety hazard are really nothing at all, just minor fissures? Sounds like bs to me, a whitewash for pr reasons, while safety is sacrificed for saving face.

Edited February 16, 2007 by thaimat

[Martin]

"The world and his wife knows how examinations are passed and credentials obtained in Thailand. The same parameters are in force for employment and advancement. The Shinawatra siblings are ample proof of this."

Fill in the gaps for an assortment of other countries in this: "The world and his wife knows how examinations are passed and credentials obtained in ------------. The same parameters are in force for employment and advancement. The -------------------- siblings are ample proof of this."

I would fill in: "England" and "Buckingham Palace".

[CHAIYES]

Today's technology allows airports to be constructed literally anwhere..

Japan's Kansai airport (yes the whole airport was constructed over the ocean floor!).

Apart from corruption scandals; questions with Suvarnabhumi are;

1. Is the foundation design structure good enough.

2. Quality of materials used in laying the foundation

3. Sufficient Water drainage (15% of airport lighting already dont work- cables are burried

underground & water causes short circuits..!).

Thai engineers refusing to allow external engineering experts to make an independant assesment speaks volumes.!

[esprit]

Didn't that other engineering marvel of it's time have a problem with the ingress of water and I don't think Thai Engineers were involved there, although I may be wrong - The Titanic ?

[PhilHarries]

Didn't that other engineering marvel of it's time have a problem with the ingress of water and I don't think Thai Engineers were involved there, although I may be wrong - The Titanic ?

I think you'll find that was due to a bunch of cretins driving it full tilt into an icefield in the middle of the night. Nothing to do with poor design, poor construction methods, sub-standard materials and under the table money.

Still it rather prophetic (?) for you to compare the Titanic with Suvarnabhumi. A project undertaken in the steam age with one undertaken in the space age, or is this a sleight at the relative competence of today's Thai engineers?

[esprit]

Didn't that other engineering marvel of it's time have a problem with the ingress of water and I don't think Thai Engineers were involved there, although I may be wrong - The Titanic ?

I think you'll find that was due to a bunch of cretins driving it full tilt into an icefield in the middle of the night. Nothing to do with poor design, poor construction methods, sub-standard materials and under the table money.

Still it rather prophetic (?) for you to compare the Titanic with Suvarnabhumi. A project undertaken in the steam age with one undertaken in the space age, or is this a sleight at the relative competence of today's Thai engineers?

Not withstanding that stupid iceberg that popped up out of nowhere, it was due to an inherent design failure, albeit not recognised until after the event hence the analogy. The Titanic' water tight bulkheads did not extend up to the highest continual longitudanl member, i.e. the deck. As a consequence progressive flooding occured as the ship took on water ultimately cause loss of bouyancy. Until that time "this was as it had always been" so hence until that disaster all best practises known at the time were incorporated into the design. Following recognition of the series of events following the striking of that stupid iceberg, Lloyds Register of Shipping incorporated relevent changes into it rules for passenger ship construction to prevent a similar re-occurance. Back to the airport and most probably Thai Engineers or whomever ( was it designed and built by Italian- Thai construction? - maybe wrong ) incorporated all best design practices. Perhaps time will tell whether or not those design codes used need updating if is is found that perhaps the area has some peculiar sub strata properties not previously indentifiable. And before anybody queries the analysis of the original core samples I would assume that that was undertaken by the original consultants and re-verified by the designers. Maybe Cobra pee has a very un-stablising effect on sand and clay over the longer term.

Edited February 16, 2007 by daveupson

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps time will tell whether or not those design codes used need updating if is is found that perhaps the area has some peculiar sub strata properties not previously indentifiable. And before anybody queries the analysis of the original core samples I would assume that that was undertaken by the original consultants and re-verified by the designers. Maybe Cobra pee has a very un-stablising effect on sand and clay over the longer term.

There you have it, folks. Stop the presses; dave upson has just identified the ultimate scapesnake - I mean, scapegoat: cobra pee! You heard it here first on ThaiVisa: it isn't Taksin's fault or the junta's fault or the Thai engineers' faults or the farang's faults. It's cobra urine.

[Arandora]

It's cobra urine.

Snake Pee plus Bull Sh*t - the new cocktail. Sold only at Suvarnabhumi - by the bucket!!

[wintermute]

Didn't that other engineering marvel of it's time have a problem with the ingress of water and I don't think Thai Engineers were involved there, although I may be wrong - The Titanic ?

The only difference is the Titanic was built in the early 20th century when large luxury passenger vessels were still in their experimental engineering stage. Whereas it's 2006 and Thailand is just figuring out that building airports on swamps might possibly have some engineering complications.

[esprit]

Another enigma.

Swampybalm has not got it's Aerodrome Certificate and the interim cert has expired. Aviation insurance is apparently dependant upon airports holding this certificate in order to ensure a level of standardised risk assurance. If no cert then are the airlines potentially running ops at "risk" and hence would be directly liable for any incident that may occur?

Perhaps an insurance specialist, not a bar room insurer, could advise on that issue?

Don Muck still maintains this full cert so thus one could argue that the cost, based on potential liability, would be far less should airlines revert to Don Muck

[Martin]

It would be interesting to this dreadfully-nosey, inquisitive farang, who has the misguided notion that he should be privy to the same level of information as those who are 'far above his station in life', to know what a suitably-qualified and experiencd Risk Assessor would say about the Cobra Swamp runways.

What mode of failure could occur? Would it only be a progressive worsening that would first rule out the really heavy stuff, and then the medium-heavy stuff, and finally only be able to handle proper aircraft like DC3s (which can land on a mere coating of ice on a lake after a few days of freezing temperatures)?

Or could there be catastrophic failure, like a section giving way under the load of an A380 doing a heavy landing on it?

The problems with the buildings, whilst causing a lot of annoyance, are relatively minor matters compared to that.

[thedude]

i hear the airport foundations were laid during Banharn's time.

can anyone verify that? Livinginexile?