Thai Corruption Revisited - My View.

[frikkiedeboer]

In the west you have the choice to choose to work hard and have a future.

and in thailand, all the same opportunities, and more exist. it takes hard work to ensure a good future for yourself. if you reject education, or lie around in an hammock all day, you will get no-where. it is no different in the west.

[siamamerican]

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

Well, maybe Western food are better. Take McDonald's as an example. It's crap food, but it's clean. Because they're the largest fast food company, they're the most controlled. But if you eat Thai fast food, as in the food shops on the street, nobody controls them. Have you ever spent some time watching how they wash the dishes? Or the meat they put in the soups? Not to mention it's hanging in the sun for probably 6 hours before you eat it and develops bacteria. McDonald's burgers at least are in the fridge. So yes, Western fast food, even if crap food, is still better than Thai fast food.

I find Thai street food quite good. The ones that aren't clean don't have many customers. At least you get to see most of the preparation. The kid making your burger at McDs cares less than the owner of a street restaurant. During college I worked in many restaurants and was disgusted with what sometimes happened in the kitchen.

I'm sure you have a lovely wife, but maybe there is another reason she doesn't eat street food. What do well off Thais think about street food? I think the racist comment made about you was stupid, but your wife not eating street food proves little.

[rafval]

my impression is that many thais grow up living hand to mouth, if your starving and someone offers you $10 now or $100 next week you take the $10 because you might be dead next week if you dont, if you have some money you wait for the hundred, so you are forced to live in the moment and dont have the luxury of making plans, and once you have grown up that way it is very difficult to change your thinking

[markm81]

Jasreeve17 - you should read my posts more carefully and try to comprehend the meaning... You misunderstood most my comments and took them out of context completely. It is a waste of time trying to explain these things to you, as I say one thing, and you are saying I said the exact opposite.

In fact, while trying to argue against me, you are actually arguing the same points I was.

[markm81]

Rain Man, why do you hate the Thai people, why are you so racist, why are you implying that Thailand is not perfect?!?

1. I don't hate people, I live in Thailand for almost 4 years.

2. I'm not racist, my wife is Thai.

3. Thailand is not perfect. We all know it, otherwise the OP wouldn't complain about corruption.

I'm just being realistic. Sorry if I busted your dream world bubble.

I never complained about corruption. I complained about people who claim that thai people are inherently dishonest after witnessing

individual acts, as I do not believe that corruption in thailand is exceptional considering how poor it is.

Unforunately a couple of people who can't read are making it look like i am saying the opposite.

[markm81]

Mark,

read some books about Buddha !

every truth has a counter truth ... Thailand is great ... most Thais are corrupt

both statements are true ... live with it ...

or leave Thailand !

like it or not, but those cranky, whiny, complaining, old, fat farangs are part of it ! hehe

anyway, I've no problem with the corruption, they try, but they can never out-smart me, actually I kind of like, it's a game, whenever they try to rip me off, but fail, I'm just like them, I smile and ... well, they smile ... LOS

but guys like you, trying so hard to deny reality, are the only real losers !

Another person who cant read. I argree with every point you made(except me being a loser!)... Nothing you said contradicts anything I said. I love Thailand, and Thai people, I accept there is corruption, I don't put Thai people down because of the corruption, however I don't like dishonest individuals, and I feel sorry for honest thais battling in a corrupt system.

[rafval]

Corrupion is corruption, whoever it involves. It is wrong and ugly, affecting everybody here. Corruption stems from the "top" and filters all the way to the bottom. As I see it, the people in power at the top of the food chain are the ones who can change things. They need to lead by example and the people will follow. Simple really. Until things change at the top of the tree, corruption will carry on to be the blight of the LOS.

I kindof agree, but whos at the top? its a wonder your message hasnt been moderated yet

[markm81]

"

and in thailand, all the same opportunities, and more exist. it takes hard work to ensure a good future for yourself. if you reject education, or lie around in an hammock all day, you will get no-where. it is no different in the west."

Its not always possible in a system that is corrupt. Let me give you an example - my father in law works for a govt. office in Thailand - he works on development (export development, product development, infrastructure etc) in a province in the south east(Rayong). He works extremely hard and does a lot of good, however he gets no credit for his work - it all goes to his immediate superior. He is continuously denied benefits he should be getting for work he has done as it is all claimed by his bosses. He is powerless to do anything about misappropriation of govt funds that often(in a roundabout way) end up lining the pockets of his bosses.

I don't deny you can get somewhere by working hard in thailand, and having good ideas... I have seen people go from extreme poverty, to now having tens of millions of USD(in the space of 15years).

However, you have to understand, many thais have a lot less opportunity to advance themselves(at least in an economic sense) than do most westerners.

[siamamerican]

Mark,

The original post was somewhat disingenuous and some of your recent posts have a few contradictions. You're correct, many aren't reading your posts and putting their own spin on your arguments.

You make some good points though, but you lose creditability with contradictions.

"Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners. However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional."

"I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang."

Later you state that you don't respect dishonesty. It's a slippery slope and you can't respect and disrespect at the same time.

We all occasionally contradict ourself - be a better person and admit it. By the way, insulting older posters isn't the appropriate response.

I agree with the gist of your posts. Thai corruption isn't exceptional.

[jasreeve17]

Jasreeve17 - you should read my posts more carefully and try to comprehend the meaning... You misunderstood most my comments and took them out of context completely. It is a waste of time trying to explain these things to you, as I say one thing, and you are saying I said the exact opposite.

In fact, while trying to argue against me, you are actually arguing the same points I was.

According to your good self; many posters are misunderstanding you, and they can't read well.

Do you think that it may be possible that your writing is unclear?

Your discussion style of "It's a waste of time trying to explain these things to you", "while trying to argue against me, you are actually agreeing with me." is very limited, and says something about your character but offers little to enhance the debate.

I took the time to go through many of your points and explain why I disagree, whilst you retorted with avoidance defence mechanisms. You'll have to excuse me if I avoid trying to discuss any more issues with you.

[meemiathai]

In the west you have the choice to choose to work hard and have a future.

and in thailand, all the same opportunities, and more exist. it takes hard work to ensure a good future for yourself. if you reject education, or lie around in an hammock all day, you will get no-where. it is no different in the west.

If that is what you think, I suggest you try working hard in a thai factory and see how you can become rich!

You are suggesting that all the thai people I know rejects education, or lie around in a hammock all day? I think even stupid people in the west get more opportunities! Plenty of examples here.

[meemiathai]

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

Well, maybe Western food are better. Take McDonald's as an example. It's crap food, but it's clean. Because they're the largest fast food company, they're the most controlled. But if you eat Thai fast food, as in the food shops on the street, nobody controls them. Have you ever spent some time watching how they wash the dishes? Or the meat they put in the soups? Not to mention it's hanging in the sun for probably 6 hours before you eat it and develops bacteria. McDonald's burgers at least are in the fridge. So yes, Western fast food, even if crap food, is still better than Thai fast food.

I find Thai street food quite good. The ones that aren't clean don't have many customers. At least you get to see most of the preparation. The kid making your burger at McDs cares less than the owner of a street restaurant. During college I worked in many restaurants and was disgusted with what sometimes happened in the kitchen.

I'm sure you have a lovely wife, but maybe there is another reason she doesn't eat street food. What do well off Thais think about street food? I think the racist comment made about you was stupid, but your wife not eating street food proves little.

rainman is just pointing out what he thinks is reality.

[rainman]

I find Thai street food quite good. The ones that aren't clean don't have many customers. At least you get to see most of the preparation. The kid making your burger at McDs cares less than the owner of a street restaurant. During college I worked in many restaurants and was disgusted with what sometimes happened in the kitchen.

I'm sure you have a lovely wife, but maybe there is another reason she doesn't eat street food. What do well off Thais think about street food? I think the racist comment made about you was stupid, but your wife not eating street food proves little.

If it's good it doesn't always mean it's clean. Surely the fast food restaurants in the US or Europe are dirtier than the average restaurant there, but they still beat food prepared on the streets with thousands of cars passing by every day, meat hanging in the sun for hours, etc.

Either way, if I'm given the choice of eating food for 20 Baht with more bacteria or food for 80-120 Baht with less bacteria, I will spend the extra 60-100 Baht.

[Gravelrash]

Hi,

This is a spin off from the macdonalds thread which side tracked.

Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and .... time to adjust to it - It took us a long time, and we still don't have it right.

The term "angry young man" comes to mind. The usual what are you doing here, can't find a g/f? Whereas he of course has found a Thai g/f (what, couldn't find one back home?) and is presumably here, as is in his mind is his exclusive privelage. Sounds like the idealist loser who found a Thai g/f and is offended anyone else also did. His romance was true love of course due to his irrisistable looks and charming demeanour, the rest of us are dirty (and richer) old sleazy men buying and corrupting women..hmmm.

Due to tourism and a lower income level than the west corruption, rip-offs and scams are understandable. Perhaps not unexpected but that doesn't mean it need be appreciated. Not all corruption is due to tourism, I personally have "had to" pay a XXXXXXX THB20,000 to drop a frivolous XXXX (that anywhere else would have been laughed out of XXXXX), THB 20,000 to reinstate a XXXX that was cancelled for no real reason, and recently THB 70,000 to the XXX to help approve a natural occurring XXXX for XXXXXXXXXXXX (which he never did any way).

Corruption is due to poverty. I read once a very old account of trading in Siam, the comment was to bring one ship for trading and the other to pay off officials. This is certainly not a new occurrence and would suggest that many of those Mercedes we see are not people lifting themselves from poverty. As another poster suggested it comes from the top down.

The WW2 refererence and implications I won't go near.

The western way of life? I assume he means consumerism, not an ideal thing, but who can stand up and say they don't want the latest LCD, computer car etc. MarkM81, get over it, remove the rose tinted glasses, Thailand is shades of grey anyway. Corruption is, it will not be changed by us, and certainly not by people like you who dream of stealing from sleazy farang yourself. By the way, yes David Jones Lanolin has been poular here for a long long time, Thais buy it in Australia and resell at absurb profits on their return. That is called supply and demand and is not about corruption, and it has nothing to do with David Jones what so ever, but people liking the product.

[markm81]

Mark,

The original post was somewhat disingenuous and some of your recent posts have a few contradictions. You're correct, many aren't reading your posts and putting their own spin on your arguments.

You make some good points though, but you lose creditability with contradictions.

"Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners. However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional."

"I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang."

Later you state that you don't respect dishonesty. It's a slippery slope and you can't respect and disrespect at the same time.

We all occasionally contradict ourself - be a better person and admit it. By the way, insulting older posters isn't the appropriate response.

I agree with the gist of your posts. Thai corruption isn't exceptional.

SiamAmerican -

"Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners. However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional."

I dont see a contradiction here, taken in the context of the rest of my thread. I was trying to convey the following - Yes there is

a lot of corruption in thailand, however, given the level of poverty, and comparison to other countries with similar levels of development, the level of corruption is not exceptional, and there is no evidence that thais have any inherent dishonesty - the implied proposition that got me worked up in the first place.

"I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang."

Actually that one came out wrong... I was not trying to say it is the right thing to do, but I was trying to get across a level of understanding of how some of the people might be feeling, and to show that its more difficult to be honest in certain circumstances.

"By the way, insulting older posters isn't the appropriate response."

Thats true too. I apolagize for that. Its a topic I feel strongly about and I got a bit carried away.

[markm81]

Hi,

This is a spin off from the macdonalds thread which side tracked.

Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and .... time to adjust to it - It took us a long time, and we still don't have it right.

The term "angry young man" comes to mind. The usual what are you doing here, can't find a g/f? Whereas he of course has found a Thai g/f (what, couldn't find one back home?) and is presumably here, as is in his mind is his exclusive privelage. Sounds like the idealist loser who found a Thai g/f and is offended anyone else also did. His romance was true love of course due to his irrisistable looks and charming demeanour, the rest of us are dirty (and richer) old sleazy men buying and corrupting women..hmmm.

Due to tourism and a lower income level than the west corruption, rip-offs and scams are understandable. Perhaps not unexpected but that doesn't mean it need be appreciated. Not all corruption is due to tourism, I personally have "had to" pay a XXXXXXX THB20,000 to drop a frivolous XXXX (that anywhere else would have been laughed out of XXXXX), THB 20,000 to reinstate a XXXX that was cancelled for no real reason, and recently THB 70,000 to the XXX to help approve a natural occurring XXXX for XXXXXXXXXXXX (which he never did any way).

Corruption is due to poverty. I read once a very old account of trading in Siam, the comment was to bring one ship for trading and the other to pay off officials. This is certainly not a new occurrence and would suggest that many of those Mercedes we see are not people lifting themselves from poverty. As another poster suggested it comes from the top down.

The WW2 refererence and implications I won't go near.

The western way of life? I assume he means consumerism, not an ideal thing, but who can stand up and say they don't want the latest LCD, computer car etc. MarkM81, get over it, remove the rose tinted glasses, Thailand is shades of grey anyway. Corruption is, it will not be changed by us, and certainly not by people like you who dream of stealing from sleazy farang yourself. By the way, yes David Jones Lanolin has been poular here for a long long time, Thais buy it in Australia and resell at absurb profits on their return. That is called supply and demand and is not about corruption, and it has nothing to do with David Jones what so ever, but people liking the product.

you also have a problem reading... this is becoming a common theme. I never said half the things you have implied I have said.

Too many inconsistancies for me to even begin to bother with this post, only to say, the things you disagree with, I never said, and I pretty much agree with most of your points, and they in no way contradict what I wrote.

I have no problem with anyone having a thai girlfriend. I dont even care if money is a factor... its their own business! Don't imply that I said I did.

The 'sleazy farang' is the farang that treats all thai girls as though they are bar girls, offending ordinary girls on buses and on the street. Don't deny, there are

plenty of those in Thailand.

Edited August 20, 2007 by markm81

[waldpyk]

ah. jas you'r good

like a hot knife through the b....butter

i like that

[Dupont]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

Hey Mr Chip On The Sholder Inadequate Asian!

Whats wrong with scheming against stinking arabs, chinese, blacks and those fat stinking sweating women shopping and complaining their way round Bangkok?

You appear to have caught the PC Bullshit disease down there.

Try re-posting when the drugs wear off, and calm down a bit!

[markm81]

Ok Jasreeve I'll address each of your points after reading your last post:

Post 1

"Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners. However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional."

--I've been over this point again once before. I think there is much corruption in thailand compared to say australia. However I do not think the corruption in thailand is exceptional, considering the level of development and poverty. ie. it is to be expected, and hopefully something that will be overcome in the future.

"there is a strong link between wealth, development and corruption."

Yes. The more development and wealth, the less the corruption. The less the development, with less wealth to go round, the more that people will fight (corruptly) to get it. I think that you're suggesting the opposite, which I believe is wrong.

-- No I am not. I am suggesting that high level of development and corruption are inversly related.

"For you smug and ignorant farang who complain about getting ripped off in thailand(esp. you McDonalds man), WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THAILAND? More bang for your buck? Can't find a girl friend back home? Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?"

Shows a high level of generlization and prejudice.

--Thats true, came out a bit wrong here. I am not venting at anyone who doesnt like being ripped off. I dont like being ripped off either. It is the attitude of some posters on here, and many foreigners i have spoken to, who seem to think that thais have some sort of genetic predisposition for dishonesty, that pisses me off.

"Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well."

Why? I would have thought that the tourist industry would be showing the best examples of Thai life and culture, especially when the tourist board's goal is to achieve a "higher level of quality tourists.

-- I meant more noticeable to many foreigners who travel. Other travel destinations are usually more developed. Eg. Many more tourists go to Thailand than some country in Africa or South America where corruption would be similarly or more noticeable.

"Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position."

I suggest that this is a character flaw on your part. To tar the "impoverished locals" with that brush is just plain rude. It also shows a lack of understanding. Impoverished Thais are generally exceptionally nice people who wouldn't rip anybody off. The higher classes, the corrupt ones, they are a different matter...

--Here is was trying to develop an understanding of why some poorer thais might rip off a foreigner. I am not saying it is right, or widespread, however I believe that the combination of poor locals and rich tourists, naturally breeds an atmosphere where there may be a high level of cheating and dishonesty. There may be exceptions - however probably rare. Its the same in African nations, same in South American nations. Go somewhere poor with few tourists, and you are less likely to be ripped off.

"I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang."

I would hope that you could spend your time in a more socially constructive manner.

-- ok I probably wouldn't. I was trying to convey: you never know how you might act if the tables were turned and you didn't have your priveleged life.

"The Thais have nothing to be ashamed of. A nation should be ashamed if its ideals break down in relative prosperity - eg. Germany WW2. Life for Thai people is a real struggle."

Your argument moves 180 degrees from second to second. Do you know anything about the period between the first and second World wars in Germany? Life was very much more difficult than life is for any Thai today. Also, please be aware that struggling Thais are not the problem with regard to corruption, lies and cheating. Quite the opposite.

-- True I know nothing of Germany in that time, except that it was relatively prosperous, and was an intellectual capital of the world.

Nevertheless, I am only using it to illustrate a point.

Post 3

"Farang should realise that if they can't find a girlfriend back home, then looking for one in thailand may lead to trouble."

"It is usually the men who go seeking these girls that later complain on these boards about dishonest thais"

Awful generalization, again.

--Ok that last sentence is a generalisation. However it happens often.

Post 22

"Thais now think westerners are better than them"

This is simply untrue and shows zero understanding of Asian / Thai mindsets. Have you listened to the Thai national anthem recently? Do you understand the concept of Nationalism?

-- I think there is a contradiction in Thai mindset. On one hand, western things are better and are covetted, on the other hand they love their way of life and their nation and think many foreigners are very strange. I admit, I don't have a complete grasp of this mindset, however I am quite sure this contradiction exists.

"Furthermore, many thais buy cheap australian brands, for up to 5x the retail price in australia."

This is simple untrue. Some Thais may buy some imported products which are more expensive than locally produced products. It's called a free market economy / marketing. It has nothing to do with corruption in Thailand.

--I dont think its to do with corruption. Just the aspect of wanting something just because it is foreign, even if the product is complete rubbish.

Post 24

"I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it."

It doesn't sound like you are. Look at several of your earlier remarks.

-dont understand what you mean by this.

"Are you denying that thais(generally) are obsessed with western products? I don't have any studies to back this up, however most thais are fairly conscientious and intelligent are aware of this obsession."

I think that it has nothing to do with your argument on the original post. Also, you keep saying "most Thais" when you mean the Siam sq Thais. This is indicative of about 5% of Thai people only. Meaningless.

- You may have somewhat of a point here. I am only exposed to a small proportion of thai culture. However I know it extends far out of bangkok.

Post 28

"The smelly and sleazy farang been mentioned because often Thais have to put up with a class of farang that are an embarrassment to the rest of us at best. Especially in places like Pattaya. These are the Farang that don't know, or care, about Thai culture, and just go about their days being generally rude and obnoxious to the Thais."

Awful generalization again. You are also showing a superialistic attitude whilst scolding others for exhibiting this same quality.

-- here i think im just telling the truth. There are too many foreigners like this in thailand, who do not care to observe how things are done, and expect everything to be the way they want it. Its observable all over the place.

"Compare Thais to people from other less developed nations and you see that there are usually similar levels of corruption, and so the corruption is 'unexceptional'. "

In your first thread you quoted the HDI index, and came to a different conclusion. You show consistent inconsistencies. You make one claim in one statement then the opposite claim in the next statement. It's strange to read.

--i think we've cleared this up already.

"I feel embarrassed by the way many people from Australia(and other western countries) treat the thais, spurred on by ignorant notions that the Thais are unusually corrupt."

Nobody has suggested that except you. People on this board think that the average person in the street is loevely and kind. The elites are the corrupt pond slime.

-- Thats not true. There are many posts on this board across the various threads suggesting that thais are selfish, greedy or corrupt by nature. Eg. The are there any thai philanthropists thread. Many posts allude to something inherent in thais that leads to dishonesty. And my post is only aimed at these people.

Post 32

"re David jones: They make good quality products, but its strange that its such a status symbol all the way in Thailand. Englands Harrods stuff is also perceived that way in Thailand. Ask any Bangkok person what david jones is and chances are they will know."

David Jones and Harrods are not big status symbols in Thailand. They are status symbols to a tiny percentage of young Thais in Bangkok. It's called fashion.

-- I think you underestimate this.

"The locals have the hardest time, especially the honest ones, as they are often have trouble fitting into the system."

You are implying that the honest local Thais are in a minority. That's shockingly disrespectful and plain nonsense. 99.9% of Thais are very comfortable fitting into the Thai system. Who are you to say otherwise?

--No - I dont think they are a minority, but they have to work in a corrupt system, which starts from the top. Makes life hard!

Yes i agree my original post wasn't written very well, however I wasnt trying to write an essay. I can see it might be a little confusing, however I am suprised that most people havn't piclked up what I was trying to say from the context.... ill have to go back and edit it i suppose.

[jasreeve17]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

Hey Mr Chip On The Sholder Inadequate Asian!

Whats wrong with scheming against stinking arabs, chinese, blacks and those fat stinking sweating women shopping and complaining their way round Bangkok?

You appear to have caught the PC Bullshit disease down there.

Try re-posting when the drugs wear off, and calm down a bit!

Mods on the way...

To be fair to you, I haven't seen many posts, so short in words, that managed to break so many forum rules, and generally be that offensive. I counted five, but I may be wrong.

[jasreeve17]

Mark,

Thank you for taking the time to nicely address my previous post.

[markm81]

Mark,

Thank you for taking the time to nicely address my previous post.

No worries, on second reading, it had some good points that made me think.

However I do think most of our misunderstanding was due to my laziness in writing my original post.

[jasreeve17]

Mark,

Thank you for taking the time to nicely address my previous post.

No worries, on second reading, it had some good points that made me think.

However I do think most of our misunderstanding was due to my laziness in writing my original post.

Easilly done. Words don't always come across as we mean them on a forum.

[duchovny]

WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THAILAND? More bang for your buck? Can't find a girl friend back home? Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?

Yep. That just about covers it for me.

[JimmyCA]

Just a bit of banter. Thailand is a good country and the Thais are a good people. Some folks on this forum can not tolerate dissent and love to lash out and insult anyone that disagrees with them and their personal points of view.

I don't think I ever said Thailand isn't a good country or the people are not good, but it isn't perfect and I will voice my opinion if you like it or not. My wife, who is Thai, will not eat from street shops either because she calls the food dirty. People that can't afford more than 20 Baht for a meal eat from street shops (and perhaps some adventurous Farangs). I can understand that, but if you have an option to eat clean food or dirty food, I will choose the clean food. "Up to you" what you want to eat.

all the food in thailand is the same .... "dirty" as you say. the only difference is the price and the building. same same