Tiger Temple - Kanchanaburi - Update

[wilko]

Yeah! Peace off yourself!

[percy2]

My, my , anger issues?

[kedawi]

No, what I'd rather see is the tigers separated from tourists! All of this abuse is just so TOURISTS can get their photos taken with animals that should be left alone!!! I'm an animal lover and I put animal welfare ahead of tourists desires.

Who can disagree with that. But is it really realistic ? Some would argue that a well managed trade is actually more profitable for endangered species. Without tourist money, how many zoo would be able to invest in research for the preservation of "wild" life. Also if local population can see an advantage of preserving the animals they're leaving with, they will probably take more care of them rather than killing them for short term profit.

"well managed trade is actually more profitable for endangered species."

So that is never going to happen. In practice a "trade" in this sort thing results in parallel illegal activities.

[GungaDin]

People are just crying over split milk. The place is great, the last time I was there I loved the place. Next time im there im going to give them a big donation to show them what a good job they have done, the people making up all these stories are just haters

This idiot is still posting under another name.

How can that be?

[escolicius]

People are just crying over split milk. The place is great, the last time I was there I loved the place. Next time im there im going to give them a big donation to show them what a good job they have done, the people making up all these stories are just haters

This idiot is still posting under another name.

How can that be?

One thing is for sure. Its only ignorant and stupid people that thinks the temple is good.

I am a volunteer for the tigers, and i must say after 5 months of work, that the place is only for money making. The dont even consider enrichment or any other means that makes the tigers happy, or get it in any natural mind at all, beacause that costs money.. It is a baby factory, because thats how they make money. They say that they want the tigers in the wild, but dont do anything to support that. Its a super corrupt place. The superiour staff is pure evil and do whatever they can to get more money.

I love tigers, and all animals for that matter, but the temple only good if you are a selfish bastard that thinks its a cool experience to be around tigers..

If tourist would stop coming it would be even worse for the tigers, they would be sent to places we dont even want to think about. But somehow its needs to stop. They are spitting out babies, and they get abused hard mentaly.

.

[saintofsilence]

everything looked ok to me earlier this year when i visited

[Sherlocke]

everything looked ok to me earlier this year when i visited

interesting - in light of the CWI report and now the place is aofficially a zoo, could you twell us a little more how you came to this conclusion.

how long were you there?

what parts of the place did you study?

what are your conclusions on the breeding program?

Edited October 20, 2009 by Sherlocke

[IanForbes]

As I've said several times before, the Tiger temple in Kanchanaburi is not worth the visit. The tiny cages the tigers are kept in are a disgrace. The photo shoot oportunities are a scam and you can't even take the picture yourself. If you had your own transportation and happened to be riding by it might be worth a short stop, but I certainly wouldn't pay for a day tour from the town of Kanchanaburi.

[mccw]

If a mass captive breeding progam of tigers (same goes for other animals) were allowed for trade it would be the best thing for tigers in the wild! Simple supply and demand. The more tigers available on the market the lower the price will go until the hassle of going out in the jungle to catch one is hadley worth it. The market isn't going anywhere, only grow actauly as china get more wealthy.

This is the only realistic solution surely. Getting on you high horse all high and mighty might make you feel full of rightiousness but such idealism in the real world isn't going to change anything. Money is always going to win, what you need to do find a way that eveyone can still make lotsa money but at the same time get the result you want, ie tigers etc living in the wild with out threat of extinction.

Also if a sanction trade then standerd can be drawn up for living standards, tax revenues raised can be used to protect the animals and thier habitat from poachers loggers etc. damand is massive probably be plenty for teams of rangers all over. I might be thinking wishfull now too, government and corruption probably pinch most of it but still the biggest positive would be the lowering price fetched for a wild tiger.

[mccw]

sorry but i just got to say this..........

wilkos most of all, but the rest of you know who you are, you have shown yourselves to be total .........(could fill that space with a raft of unflatouring words). You just try to pick appart those who dissagree with you. So tedius, in 6 pages of posts only eventually, when pushed, did you try to offer anything constructive and those ideas are complete dreaming, absolutely never going to happen. Nignoy at least recognises how the world works and trys to pragmaticaly make positive impacts as best he can. Nothing about what you do, other than starting forum topics and going off one. Arm chair/ computer chair/ bar stool debates about these issue can be fun to get the synapses firing, but for sure talking to people like you going to be no fun at all.

---------------

I buy the ellephants bannana's and had pictures taken with various creatures. If the man who owns the ellephant, monkey or whatever has food in his belly then has extra enough to feed his animal then its better than less coz you know the man gunna feed himself first innit. Best thing would be parks and jobs for all mahouts etc but until this happen the world is what it is and doing what YOU most probably think is terrible is actually the best thing one can do in the current imperfect circumstances.

I dont go to zoos because i find it sad, but i can see the point of them, i'll take the kids when they're a bit bigger probably.

I've never been to this tiger temple but i would if i was passing. The so called abuse is hardly worth mentioning. Its a fuc_king great big tiger for fuc_ks sake a little bitta ruff an tumble isnt goin to hurt it. Its amazing that they are so chilled actually. Even if they are drugged up a bit for picture time, they blatantly dont mind too much, people go outa their way and pay good money for ket amoungst other sanook sedatives. I'd prefer to think it was the monks calming influance though, i've seen and experienced some amazing things monks and others have done with their energy, but quite hard for closed minds to accept that such things are possable. Maybe maybe not these ones had such powers, certainly looked that way in the NG Doc, maybe in the early days but now so busy no time need to keep em in cages, money corrupted, i dont know, maybe some big man politician or mafia same same links all got involved.

Trading tigers around with laos is good for the gene pool. If its to the little park down from the waterfall in luangprabang, then i've been and its a nice place, big enclosure and basicaly left to themselves. They also have bears, when i was there a few years ago i had the pleasure of playing with a little cub, tried to eat my shoes, only about foot an a half big, happy little thing, no money scam just playing around the place, grown up and stayed otherside fence by the next visit.

I wouldnt eat anything endangered. Nor have i bought any of the magic little scrolls of tiger skin they have at some temples, i wonder where they get that skin from, i hope it comes from animals from the temple rather than the wild.

[Nio]

sorry but i just got to say this..........

wilkos most of all, but the rest of you know who you are, you have shown yourselves to be total .........(could fill that space with a raft of unflatouring words). You just try to pick appart those who dissagree with you. So tedius, in 6 pages of posts only eventually, when pushed, did you try to offer anything constructive and those ideas are complete dreaming, absolutely never going to happen. Nignoy at least recognises how the world works and trys to pragmaticaly make positive impacts as best he can. Nothing about what you do, other than starting forum topics and going off one. Arm chair/ computer chair/ bar stool debates about these issue can be fun to get the synapses firing, but for sure talking to people like you going to be no fun at all.

---------------

I buy the ellephants bannana's and had pictures taken with various creatures. If the man who owns the ellephant, monkey or whatever has food in his belly then has extra enough to feed his animal then its better than less coz you know the man gunna feed himself first innit. Best thing would be parks and jobs for all mahouts etc but until this happen the world is what it is and doing what YOU most probably think is terrible is actually the best thing one can do in the current imperfect circumstances.

I dont go to zoos because i find it sad, but i can see the point of them, i'll take the kids when they're a bit bigger probably.

I've never been to this tiger temple but i would if i was passing. The so called abuse is hardly worth mentioning. Its a fuc_king great big tiger for fuc_ks sake a little bitta ruff an tumble isnt goin to hurt it. Its amazing that they are so chilled actually. Even if they are drugged up a bit for picture time, they blatantly dont mind too much, people go outa their way and pay good money for ket amoungst other sanook sedatives. I'd prefer to think it was the monks calming influance though, i've seen and experienced some amazing things monks and others have done with their energy, but quite hard for closed minds to accept that such things are possable. Maybe maybe not these ones had such powers, certainly looked that way in the NG Doc, maybe in the early days but now so busy no time need to keep em in cages, money corrupted, i dont know, maybe some big man politician or mafia same same links all got involved.

Trading tigers around with laos is good for the gene pool. If its to the little park down from the waterfall in luangprabang, then i've been and its a nice place, big enclosure and basicaly left to themselves. They also have bears, when i was there a few years ago i had the pleasure of playing with a little cub, tried to eat my shoes, only about foot an a half big, happy little thing, no money scam just playing around the place, grown up and stayed otherside fence by the next visit.

I wouldnt eat anything endangered. Nor have i bought any of the magic little scrolls of tiger skin they have at some temples, i wonder where they get that skin from, i hope it comes from animals from the temple rather than the wild.

You are quite free with opinions and quite short with facts for never having visited the place.

Did a tiger tell you they don't mind being sedated every single day for photos? Sedated by who? Licensed vetinarians or by unlicense people who have no clue? What long term effects are these sedatives doing to the tigers over time? Do you have any actual facts?

Here is something for you to digress? Why does the head monk at Kanchanaburi Tiger Temple have a brand new Mercedes Benz instead of a Toyota or no car at all?

There are many people that think the way you do, when if fact, hidden in the guise of a tiger temple, the reals facts of that temple are all about making money.

Buddhists monks are not suppose to be materialistic and own brand new Mercedes Benz.

I'd prefer to think it was the monks calming influance though, i've seen and experienced some amazing things monks and others have done with their energy

You cannot be a buddhist or you would know it is impossible for monks to have any special energy powers as you claim?

Have you seen any monks parting the red sea or walking on water lately? That would be pretty amazing.

One minute sedation doesn't hurt the tigers, next minute it is the Monks power over the tigers that are calming them down.

I bet you anything you got, take any monk from that temple and stick them out in the wild jungle with real tigers and see how much calming influence they have before the real tiger malls them to death.

It's show business, designed to make money. That is the fact.

I have 1,000's of photos of animals in the wild in Thailand and there isn't a dam_n one that would be calmly influenced by a Monk or anyone else if you got in their way.

Wild animals like tigers deserve to be left alone where they belong, in the wild, not in some scam to suck in stupid tourists and make money.

[caf]

sorry but i just got to say this..........

wilkos most of all, but the rest of you know who you are, you have shown yourselves to be total .........(could fill that space with a raft of unflatouring words). You just try to pick appart those who dissagree with you. So tedius, in 6 pages of posts only eventually, when pushed, did you try to offer anything constructive and those ideas are complete dreaming, absolutely never going to happen. Nignoy at least recognises how the world works and trys to pragmaticaly make positive impacts as best he can. Nothing about what you do, other than starting forum topics and going off one. Arm chair/ computer chair/ bar stool debates about these issue can be fun to get the synapses firing, but for sure talking to people like you going to be no fun at all.

---------------

I buy the ellephants bannana's and had pictures taken with various creatures. If the man who owns the ellephant, monkey or whatever has food in his belly then has extra enough to feed his animal then its better than less coz you know the man gunna feed himself first innit. Best thing would be parks and jobs for all mahouts etc but until this happen the world is what it is and doing what YOU most probably think is terrible is actually the best thing one can do in the current imperfect circumstances.

I dont go to zoos because i find it sad, but i can see the point of them, i'll take the kids when they're a bit bigger probably.

I've never been to this tiger temple but i would if i was passing. The so called abuse is hardly worth mentioning. Its a fuc_king great big tiger for fuc_ks sake a little bitta ruff an tumble isnt goin to hurt it. Its amazing that they are so chilled actually. Even if they are drugged up a bit for picture time, they blatantly dont mind too much, people go outa their way and pay good money for ket amoungst other sanook sedatives. I'd prefer to think it was the monks calming influance though, i've seen and experienced some amazing things monks and others have done with their energy, but quite hard for closed minds to accept that such things are possable. Maybe maybe not these ones had such powers, certainly looked that way in the NG Doc, maybe in the early days but now so busy no time need to keep em in cages, money corrupted, i dont know, maybe some big man politician or mafia same same links all got involved.

Trading tigers around with laos is good for the gene pool. If its to the little park down from the waterfall in luangprabang, then i've been and its a nice place, big enclosure and basicaly left to themselves. They also have bears, when i was there a few years ago i had the pleasure of playing with a little cub, tried to eat my shoes, only about foot an a half big, happy little thing, no money scam just playing around the place, grown up and stayed otherside fence by the next visit.

I wouldnt eat anything endangered. Nor have i bought any of the magic little scrolls of tiger skin they have at some temples, i wonder where they get that skin from, i hope it comes from animals from the temple rather than the wild.

You are quite free with opinions and quite short with facts for never having visited the place.

Did a tiger tell you they don't mind being sedated every single day for photos? Sedated by who? Licensed vetinarians or by unlicense people who have no clue? What long term effects are these sedatives doing to the tigers over time? Do you have any actual facts?

Here is something for you to digress? Why does the head monk at Kanchanaburi Tiger Temple have a brand new Mercedes Benz instead of a Toyota or no car at all?

There are many people that think the way you do, when if fact, hidden in the guise of a tiger temple, the reals facts of that temple are all about making money.

Buddhists monks are not suppose to be materialistic and own brand new Mercedes Benz.

I'd prefer to think it was the monks calming influance though, i've seen and experienced some amazing things monks and others have done with their energy

You cannot be a buddhist or you would know it is impossible for monks to have any special energy powers as you claim?

Have you seen any monks parting the red sea or walking on water lately? That would be pretty amazing.

One minute sedation doesn't hurt the tigers, next minute it is the Monks power over the tigers that are calming them down.

I bet you anything you got, take any monk from that temple and stick them out in the wild jungle with real tigers and see how much calming influence they have before the real tiger malls them to death.

It's show business, designed to make money. That is the fact.

I have 1,000's of photos of animals in the wild in Thailand and there isn't a dam_n one that would be calmly influenced by a Monk or anyone else if you got in their way.

Wild animals like tigers deserve to be left alone where they belong, in the wild, not in some scam to suck in stupid tourists and make money.

seconded

[TomBombadil]

sorry but i just got to say this..........

wilkos most of all, but the rest of you know who you are, you have shown yourselves to be total .........(could fill that space with a raft of unflatouring words). You just try to pick appart those who dissagree with you. So tedius, in 6 pages of posts only eventually, when pushed, did you try to offer anything constructive and those ideas are complete dreaming, absolutely never going to happen. Nignoy at least recognises how the world works and trys to pragmaticaly make positive impacts as best he can. Nothing about what you do, other than starting forum topics and going off one. Arm chair/ computer chair/ bar stool debates about these issue can be fun to get the synapses firing, but for sure talking to people like you going to be no fun at all.

---------------

I buy the ellephants bannana's and had pictures taken with various creatures. If the man who owns the ellephant, monkey or whatever has food in his belly then has extra enough to feed his animal then its better than less coz you know the man gunna feed himself first innit. Best thing would be parks and jobs for all mahouts etc but until this happen the world is what it is and doing what YOU most probably think is terrible is actually the best thing one can do in the current imperfect circumstances.

I dont go to zoos because i find it sad, but i can see the point of them, i'll take the kids when they're a bit bigger probably.

I've never been to this tiger temple but i would if i was passing. The so called abuse is hardly worth mentioning. Its a fuc_king great big tiger for fuc_ks sake a little bitta ruff an tumble isnt goin to hurt it. Its amazing that they are so chilled actually. Even if they are drugged up a bit for picture time, they blatantly dont mind too much, people go outa their way and pay good money for ket amoungst other sanook sedatives. I'd prefer to think it was the monks calming influance though, i've seen and experienced some amazing things monks and others have done with their energy, but quite hard for closed minds to accept that such things are possable. Maybe maybe not these ones had such powers, certainly looked that way in the NG Doc, maybe in the early days but now so busy no time need to keep em in cages, money corrupted, i dont know, maybe some big man politician or mafia same same links all got involved.

Trading tigers around with laos is good for the gene pool. If its to the little park down from the waterfall in luangprabang, then i've been and its a nice place, big enclosure and basicaly left to themselves. They also have bears, when i was there a few years ago i had the pleasure of playing with a little cub, tried to eat my shoes, only about foot an a half big, happy little thing, no money scam just playing around the place, grown up and stayed otherside fence by the next visit.

I wouldnt eat anything endangered. Nor have i bought any of the magic little scrolls of tiger skin they have at some temples, i wonder where they get that skin from, i hope it comes from animals from the temple rather than the wild.

While you are defending unnatural animal habitats, you are also defending yourself...

So, it s quiet ok with you, that animals are human tortured prisoners, but simultaneously you recognize that there is something wrong with that...!?

[tw25rw]

You are quite free with opinions and quite short with facts for never having visited the place.

Did a tiger tell you they don't mind being sedated every single day for photos? Sedated by who? Licensed vetinarians or by unlicense people who have no clue? What long term effects are these sedatives doing to the tigers over time? Do you have any actual facts?

Did a tiger tell you that they are sedated or are you just passing hearsay as fact?

[mccw]

You are quite free with opinions and quite short with facts for never having visited the place.

Did a tiger tell you they don't mind being sedated every single day for photos? Sedated by who? Licensed vetinarians or by unlicense people who have no clue? What long term effects are these sedatives doing to the tigers over time? Do you have any actual facts?

Did a tiger tell you that they are sedated or are you just passing hearsay as fact?

mmm quite.

In response to the other posts after my last post:

When you say about me being free with my opinions for never visiting the place, i am responding to the evidence ie videos, reports etc people have posted links to. A little slap n a restle, even sum liquid in the face doesn't constetute abuse in my opinion. Sure better living standards, like bigger enclosures, and some education from profetionals would be good, but over all its not look so terrible.

did you read this whole topics posts and links?

-------------------------

You say i condone animal cruelty. No i do not. I see imperfect situations and think in real world terms what is a decent course of action.

I would love all the animals to be in the wild. But in the real world that aint gunna happen! As i said in the post before the one you quote; i offer a sollution for how wild tigers can still stay in the wild and be less appealing targets for poachers by reducing their market value by having a massive breeding program for trade purposes to fullfill demand, which wont go away with any amount of shock stories, at the same time raising taxes and government interest and perhapse region wide standards of treatment/ living etc.

-------------------------

"You cannot be a buddhist or you would know it is impossible for monks to have any special energy powers as you claim" - why do you say this?

-------------------------

"Buddhists monks are not suppose to be materialistic and own brand new Mercedes Benz." I've seen no evidence of this or drugging or anything else just rumours! Even if its all true, if your point is to help the tigers of the temple, slagging off the sangha is not going to help your cause, rather than critising what institutions people hold dear (even if not everyones perfect) you should offer positive ideas for change that still satisfy all the need of those involved. Making money, wheather for corrupt monks or shadowy figures unseen, is the main need as you say, so a licenced regulated breeding program would be the option that can give them their moneys and the tigers thier decent life. Just moaning abouthow it is now wont change it! Trying to guilt trip people having a nice day out aint gunna help either!

"Wild animals like tigers deserve to be left alone where they belong, in the wild, not in some scam to suck in stupid tourists and make money." i absolutely agree. I think these tigers were rescued from death at the hands of poachers? and then bred in captivity. either way, what you going to do aboult it? just being moraly indignant is not help.

as its there anyway why not go and see whats going on, take a photo with a tiger what ever, if you think you wont enjoy it don't go, either way its make no difference!!!!

--------------------------

Edited November 8, 2009 by mccw

[mccw]

"You cannot be a buddhist or you would know it is impossible for monks to have any special energy powers as you claim"

There are numerous cases of people living with bears, wolves, lions, gorrilas and the like, both in wild and semi captive (ie like a nature park). These people make a connection with the animalls by being open, calm and compasionate, with gradual learning and appreitiation of how to interact. The vibes or energy one gives off is how the animals sense what your about. Like not being fearfull with dogs is the most common relatable instance or showing that you mean no harm to a creature also works well. Nothing especialy buddhist or supernatural about it. Monks i'd think though would naturaly be good at this sort of thing being clear headed and compassionate generaly.

As for the existance of "energy" as we're calling it, many differrent cultures and religions have recognised its existence, from the wicca and pagan to tribal cultures the world over, to "mana" in hindu and buddhist, to the "tao" in chinese or "chi" if your talking about that which your body creates/ or focuses, this is also the stuff which is the power for the sak yant and use in many ceromonies for a veriaty of thing. This energy can be used in many more different ways, a few of which i have a direct experience with, but if you can't even accept that it may exist there is no reason to continue talking only for you to be disrespectful.

(In my opinion one should never have "faith" that something does exist because some one else has told you so, but one should be open to all the possabillity and try to discover yourself the truth through experience.)