Is This A Good Deal

[Maigo6]

4000 Trees all growing strong on 64 Rai, 4 years old, around about the 3 Million Baht price range.

Good deal or what ?

Anyone know a ballpark figure on the return/ Income for 4000 producing Trees.

Should be ready to harvest in 2 - 3 years I'm told.

Cheers.

[Gary A]

4000 Trees all growing strong on 64 Rai, 4 years old, around about the 3 Million Baht price range.

Good deal or what ?

Anyone know a ballpark figure on the return/ Income for 4000 producing Trees.

Should be ready to harvest in 2 - 3 years I'm told.

Cheers.

A lot depends on where the land is and how difficult it would be to keep a close eye on the trees when they start producing. It does sound like a good price. If the trees look healthy and are a decent size after 4 years you can assume the land is suitable for rubber trees. There are exaggerated as well as conservative claims regarding the income so it is a good idea to talk to people who actually farm rubber in that area.

[chang35baht]

At least 20,000Bt per day at todays prices selling the raw latex only IMHO. But, beware!!! Why is it being sold. I have oly 20 rai of trees@ just over 3 years old and I wouldn`t sell for 5 millionBt. Plus being a bit of a doubter/sceptic I probably wouldn`t want trees that I hadn`t put in the ground myself because I know exactly what type they are and where they came from. Have they been given the right amount/type of fertilizer on the correct regime?

If you have any experience of rubber trees then you`ll be able to make your own judgement. If not then take someone who has experience to have a look at the plantation and take it from there. In 25 years the sellable value of the wood will get you your 3 million back at@ todays prices. You`ll still have the land and made whatever you`ve made in between.

All in all, far to cheap IMHO. regardless of what title the land has.

P.S. The figures I`ve quoted are just my guestimates from what is being made from the harvesting farms neighbouring mine. I don`t want to get involved in a debate about returns from rubber farms and what split should be given to whom.

P.P.S. If it turns out that the land and the trees are fine, then it`s a definite bargain

Good luck,

Chang35baht.

Edited August 18, 2008 by chang35baht

[Maigo6]

Thanks for the replies chaps,

In fact Gary, it's not too far from the watering Hole in Nong Hin !

Anyway, it appears that the guy who wants to sell is from Bkk, he is a man who had only one son who was killed in an accident, he's an older guy with nobody to leave it too, so he is willing to sell, the price that was first quoted was 3.5 Million Bht, but I'm sure it could be had for less if he really wants to sell, of course I'm just assuming that.

Anyway, my Missus has just gone out to look at it, take some photos etc, I will post her findings, it's up to her really as she will be borrowing the majority of the money from a Bank if it's worth it.

Time will tell I guess, thanks for the replies, even at 3.5 Mill it's only 55,000 Baht per Rai.

I'll find out the land title details if she thinks it's a good deal and post here.

Cheers chaps.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maizefarmer]

I would have thought that the timber alone would cover the mortgage in due course, - so it seems not such a bad deal.

BUT BUT BUT - don't buy just because it is a good price. Do some due dilligence and make 100% sure you are buying a free title, and that it is a Chanote i.e no charges or securities registered against it.

Actually, you've being around a fair while - I'm sure you know all the above .....

[Maigo6]

I would have thought that the timber alone would cover the mortgage in due course, - so it seems not such a bad deal.

BUT BUT BUT - don't buy just because it is a good price. Do some due dilligence and make 100% sure you are buying a free title, and that it is a Chanote i.e no charges or securities registered against it.

Actually, you've being around a fair while - I'm sure you know all the above .....

Thanks Maize,

I'm hearing you and understand where you're coming from.

If it goes through a Bank, they will make sure it's all above board or they won't lend any money on the land I guess, I dunno how these things work.

Anyway< I will find out later today what the general concensus is and post here the land title situation etc....

Thanks for the heads up on the Chanote situation, I can see what you mean.

[Gary A]

Maigo, It looks like probably late Thursday afternoon will be a meeting at the watering hole. You are certainly welcome to drop by and tip a few of those cheap beers and join in our witty (drunken) conversations.

[Maigo6]

Maigo, It looks like probably late Thursday afternoon will be a meeting at the watering hole. You are certainly welcome to drop by and tip a few of those cheap beers and join in our witty (drunken) conversations.

Ok Gary, I'll probably see you there, it's my birthday on Wednesday, 23 yrs old.

Well, it's something 3, I forget, so I'll say 23, I dunno where the years go!

See ya soon.

BTW, I went to The Pongsit Kamphi Concert in Nong Hin on Friday, it was great.

[Maizefarmer]

I would have thought that the timber alone would cover the mortgage in due course, - so it seems not such a bad deal.

BUT BUT BUT - don't buy just because it is a good price. Do some due dilligence and make 100% sure you are buying a free title, and that it is a Chanote i.e no charges or securities registered against it.

Actually, you've being around a fair while - I'm sure you know all the above .....

Thanks Maize,

I'm hearing you and understand where you're coming from.

If it goes through a Bank, they will make sure it's all above board or they won't lend any money on the land I guess, I dunno how these things work.

Anyway< I will find out later today what the general concensus is and post here the land title situation etc....

Thanks for the heads up on the Chanote situation, I can see what you mean.

... and I'll add: nows not the time to be using forex to support Thai real estate purchases - its my opinion that the indicators that precipitated the 1990's Thai Baht devaluation are starting to consolidate again - the one missing component being a general demise across the basket of Asian currencies - still, Thailand can only tolerate a Thai Baht of so-much strength and its not far off where it was when the last devaluation occured. My opinion: hang on 18 - 24months if you can.

I am making the asumption that although it will be a Thai mortgage, you will be backing it with forex (?) If thats wrong then ignore what I have said

[Maigo6]

I have found out the title of the land, it's Por Bor Tor 5. ( I think that's the right translation ).

On inspection I have been told the trees are healthy and growing well.

3,300,000 Baht

Edited August 20, 2008 by Maigo6

[Gary A]

I have found out the title of the land, it's Por Bor Tor 5. ( I think that's the right translation ).

On inspection I have been told the trees are healthy and growing well.

3,300,000 Baht

Happy birthday

My little woman says that a chanote would be better but if the bank is willing to loan money on the land, it will be possible to change the paper to a chanote later.

[DaveD]

I have found out the title of the land, it's Por Bor Tor 5. ( I think that's the right translation ).

On inspection I have been told the trees are healthy and growing well.

3,300,000 Baht

Happy birthday

My little woman says that a chanote would be better but if the bank is willing to loan money on the land, it will be possible to change the paper to a chanote later.

Hi Gary A,

Thanks for the interesting post.Please forgive me for sidetracking a little.As i understand it banks will only lend against full title ie. chanoot tee din ,or maybe nor sor sam.Please correct me if im wrong.I was led to understand that por bor tor 5 ,is just a form of title to squat registered with the poo yai baan and cant be used as collateral.

Another question i have is that the procedure to obtain a loan from a thai bank is very slow ,that is why people who "need money quickly" have to go to loan sharks.My wife reckons it can take 3 months to get loan approval from a bank regardless.

I hope it works out with the rubber plantation, another thing my wife says is that a lot of people who planted trees now find at 6 years they are not producing.She says that it may be due to lack of fertilizer or the wrong type of tree.She heard this from her friend in udon thani.True or not? I dont know.

regards ,

Dave.

[Gary A]

Any land paper other than a red seal chanote may be a problem but there are a lot of different circumstances. Most government land in the mountains will NEVER qualify to have a chanote. The banks are familiar with all kinds of land papers and if that land cannot eventually be titled with a chanote, they won't loan any money on it. My wife has one piece of land that has been surveyed and has the cement boundary markers. There was still a 5 year wait for the chanote. I know nothing about rubber trees except that they expect some production within 7 years.

[Maizefarmer]

Por Bor Tor 5 is it?

No bank will lend money against Por Bor Tor 5.

My advice, Maigo6 - steer clear of this one.

Edited August 20, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[lannarebirth]

I have found out the title of the land, it's Por Bor Tor 5. ( I think that's the right translation ).

On inspection I have been told the trees are healthy and growing well.

3,300,000 Baht

How far is the land from where you live? Is it on an easily accessible road? Is there any sgns of develepment in the area? Is your wife on good terms with the local puyai baan and kumnan? Does it have water year round? Is it an attractive piece of land aside from it's current agricultural use?

My wife buys land , both papered and non papered. We are less afraid of "no paper" land than most people. we've had good success in getting some of it upgraded and moved to the Land department. That came about by becoming intimately familiar with the process and path to title upgrade. I am not familiar with the title you named, but I would suggest your wife speak to the puyai baan of the village andthe kumnan. If you decide to buy iy, photograph the transaction and money changing hands.

Persoanlly, when buying no paper land, I take the view would I be comfortable owning it till I die with no prospects of returns. If I am, I buy it.

[Lickey]

Thailand Property Advice

Land & Property Related Services in Thailand Language

Selector

Something i found on the net which helps explains things a bit

LAND TYPES AND TITLES EXPLAINED

LAND TITLES IN THE LAND OF SMILES

Thai law recognises two types of land holding: the right of possession (Possessory Right) says that land can be used by an individual for its benefit (agricultural use etc.) under the Civil and Commercial Code and the right of ownership, where an individual or company holds title deeds and ownership documentation to a piece of land.

Sor Kor 1

Sor Kor 1 entitles the holder to occupy and farm land only, as one cannot build on Sor Kor 1 land. The land can not be sold and it may only be transferred to direct heirs of the person. Only the long term land owner can apply to have the land title upgraded. Sor Kor 1 is the form required to notify the government of a possessory claim to that piece of land. The government under its land ownership legislation has almost eliminated this type of title and has upgraded most Sor Kor1 land to Nor Sor 3.

Por Bor Tor 6

All land has Por Bor Tor 6 documentation allocated and issued so that the land can be assessed for tax.

Por Bor Tor 5

This type of land is agricultural land or forestry not under ownership of the local land office. The local village leader is normally appointed as the administrator and is responsible for maintaining possessory rights ownership boundaries. When land is sold, the transaction is carried out under the supervisory role of the village leader. As with Sor Kor 1, one cannot construct upon this land.

Sor Por Kor 4-01

Sor. Por. Kor 4-01 refers to land allotted and overseen by the Land Reform Committee. This land cannot be sold and may only be transferred to the heirs of the person who hold the title. Important note: Sometimes an area of Sor Kor or Por Bor land may be included with land that has a transferable title, such as Nor Sor 3 or Chanoht. It is important to realise that the attached Sor Kor and Por Bor land should not be constructed upon in the hope that one day the land be transferred to that of either Nor Sor 3 or Chanoht status as such an upgrade may not occur.

Nor Sor 3 น. ส. ๓

Nor Sor 3 is land that is legally owned and can be used for any purpose by the title holder. The area of land will have been surveyed (mapped) by the Land Office but will not have boundary markers (parcel points) sited and therefore boundaries might come under dispute from neighbouring land owners if not clearly defined by roads for example. Neighbouring landowners should therefore be encouraged to stake out their plots (or what they consider to be their plots) before you consider purchasing this type of land. Any transfer of this land title should be publicised at least 30 days in advance. Nor Sor 3 A is similar to the Nor Sor 3 the only difference being that the map of the land plot is based on an aerial photograph.

Nor Sor 3 Kor น. ส. ๓. ก.

Nor Sor 3 Kor is similar to Nor Sor 3 however, the land area has been defined with boundary markers (parcel points) and the documents clearly and accurately show adjoining plots on a map to a scale of 1:5000. As with Nor Sor 3, this title allows the owner to construct a building upon the land.

All the above referred documents are NOT certificates of ownership; only Chanoht (see below) specifies actual ownership. The aforementioned documents are issued to show the possessor’s use of the land NOT any ownership rights. However, they can still be registered for transfer of the land for which the certificates were issued.

Nor Sor 4 Jor น. ส. ๔ จ. (Chanoht)

Nor Sor 4 Jor, or as it is more often referred to; Chanoht, is the favoured title dead for land purchase in Thailand. A Chanoht is a certificate of land ownership. “Chanoht thee-din”, โฉนดที่ดิน, literally translates to “land title”. The title deed indicates the land boundaries as verified by the Land Office in addition to the owner’s name which means that that the title deed may be used in all legal undertakings including collateral; as with a bank

Upgrading to a Chanoht requires that all neighbouring land owners are notified and are present when the Land Office surveyors come to measure the land. Should there not be disputes over the boundaries after 30 days following the survey then the Chanoht will be issued. (Adjoining land owners who did not witness the survey and do not raise objections within the 30 day period will be deemed as accepting the survey results as their acceptance of a Chanoht being issued.

Chanoht land can be sub-divided into a maximum of nine sub-plots with the permission the neighbouring land owners in addition to adhering to Section 286 of the Land Allotment Law. Chanoht land will normally have a uniquely numbered government concrete pegs (parcel points) sited at plot angles. A bird’s eye view plan will be drawn on the back of the Chanoht document .

Cheers Lickey.

[jopham]

Thanks Lickey

From which web site did you get that?

Thank johpam

[Lickey]

Hi jopham, this link should put you onsite, Cheers, Lickey.

http://www.thailandpropertyadvice.com/land...es_thailand.php

[jopham]

thanks Lickey and much appreciated

jopham

[Honolulu]

At least 20,000Bt per day at todays prices selling the raw latex only IMHO. But, beware!!! Why is it being sold. I have oly 20 rai of trees@ just over 3 years old and I wouldn`t sell for 5 millionBt. Plus being a bit of a doubter/sceptic I probably wouldn`t want trees that I hadn`t put in the ground myself because I know exactly what type they are and where they came from. Have they been given the right amount/type of fertilizer on the correct regime?

If you have any experience of rubber trees then you`ll be able to make your own judgement. If not then take someone who has experience to have a look at the plantation and take it from there. In 25 years the sellable value of the wood will get you your 3 million back at@ todays prices. You`ll still have the land and made whatever you`ve made in between.

All in all, far to cheap IMHO. regardless of what title the land has.

P.S. The figures I`ve quoted are just my guestimates from what is being made from the harvesting farms neighbouring mine. I don`t want to get involved in a debate about returns from rubber farms and what split should be given to whom.

P.P.S. If it turns out that the land and the trees are fine, then it`s a definite bargain

Good luck,

Chang35baht.

[Honolulu]

Rubber plantation owners be advised. A company called Petra Group has discovered a way to "un-vulcanize" tire rubber. Which means that rubber can now be recycled. It is said that the industry will be "Revelutionized". All other opinions are appreciated.

[lannarebirth]

Rubber plantation owners be advised. A company called Petra Group has discovered a way to "un-vulcanize" tire rubber. Which means that rubber can now be recycled. It is said that the industry will be "Revelutionized". All other opinions are appreciated.

Hard to say. I will say this. I've never seen the Thai government put farmers in front of an agricultural scheme that had any long term income potential for anyone other than those selling the trees. Still, it aids in land reform and that's not a bad thing.

[thesunset75]

I am so surprise that many many farangs who own the plantage in Thailand.

I never work in plantage just bought and let family member do all the work. I know the plantage i bought is high price but for that location and how healthy rubber are so the price only going up. Now its 217,000 / Rai (including the house)

The land title is (No.So. 3 Ko)

I dont even know what kind of the trees are ! but this is how my family manage.

Start tapping when its 7 years and able to do that for more 20 years then you can sell the tree which is really high price. Need to put fertilizer twice a year.

I have 10 years old rubber, 22 Rai 2-3 people work on it about 4 hours tapping then wait for few hours and do the rubber sheet process which I have no idea how

As i am the investor but ofcourse family working on it we take 50-50% some deal 40%-60%

When is nice weather can do 4 days a week.

Approximate income is 20000-50000 THB per month for those 22 Rai full of rubber, as a rubber price is 100+ THB per 1 kg.

Think this might give you all some idea

Thesunset75

PLS : I have also have plantage pictures if anyone interest !

[thesunset75]

I am so surprise that many many farangs who own the plantage in Thailand.

I never work in plantage just bought and let family member do all the work. I know the plantage i bought is high price but for that location and how healthy rubber are so the price only going up. Now its 217,000 / Rai (including the house)

The land title is (No.So. 3 Ko)

I dont even know what kind of the trees are ! but this is how my family manage.

Start tapping when its 7 years and able to do that for more 20 years then you can sell the tree which is really high price. Need to put fertilizer twice a year.

I have 10 years old rubber, 22 Rai 2-3 people work on it about 4 hours tapping then wait for few hours and do the rubber sheet process which I have no idea how

As i am the investor but ofcourse family working on it we take 50-50% some deal 40%-60%

When is nice weather can do 4 days a week.

Approximate income is 20000-50000 THB per month for those 22 Rai full of rubber, as a rubber price is 100+ THB per 1 kg.

Think this might give you all some idea

Thesunset75

PLS : I have also have plantage pictures if anyone interest !

Ohh the plantage is in Surat Thani province about 20 Km. from Surat Airportto the west.

[IraqRon]

At least 20,000Bt per day at todays prices selling the raw latex only IMHO. But, beware!!! Why is it being sold. I have oly 20 rai of trees@ just over 3 years old and I wouldn`t sell for 5 millionBt. Plus being a bit of a doubter/sceptic I probably wouldn`t want trees that I hadn`t put in the ground myself because I know exactly what type they are and where they came from. Have they been given the right amount/type of fertilizer on the correct regime?

If you have any experience of rubber trees then you`ll be able to make your own judgement. If not then take someone who has experience to have a look at the plantation and take it from there. In 25 years the sellable value of the wood will get you your 3 million back at@ todays prices. You`ll still have the land and made whatever you`ve made in between.

All in all, far to cheap IMHO. regardless of what title the land has.

P.S. The figures I`ve quoted are just my guestimates from what is being made from the harvesting farms neighbouring mine. I don`t want to get involved in a debate about returns from rubber farms and what split should be given to whom.

P.P.S. If it turns out that the land and the trees are fine, then it`s a definite bargain

Good luck,

Chang35baht.

Would that be 20k baht per day for how many days per year?? Based upon what calculation? I just can't seem to figure this out with the information given above, can you help?

[tracer]

I have found out the title of the land, it's Por Bor Tor 5. ( I think that's the right translation ).

On inspection I have been told the trees are healthy and growing well.

3,300,000 Baht

Happy birthday

My little woman says that a chanote would be better but if the bank is willing to loan money on the land, it will be possible to change the paper to a chanote later.

Hi Gary A,

Thanks for the interesting post.Please forgive me for sidetracking a little.As i understand it banks will only lend against full title ie. chanoot tee din ,or maybe nor sor sam.Please correct me if im wrong.I was led to understand that por bor tor 5 ,is just a form of title to squat registered with the poo yai baan and cant be used as collateral.

Another question i have is that the procedure to obtain a loan from a thai bank is very slow ,that is why people who "need money quickly" have to go to loan sharks.My wife reckons it can take 3 months to get loan approval from a bank regardless.

I hope it works out with the rubber plantation, another thing my wife says is that a lot of people who planted trees now find at 6 years they are not producing.She says that it may be due to lack of fertilizer or the wrong type of tree.She heard this from her friend in udon thani.True or not? I dont know.

regards ,

Dave.

Trees not producing at 6 years could be due to being 'sold' ripoff trees as mentioned elsewhere as seemingly one of the politicians sold lots of not producing trees to Isan.... seems being in a job for rubber growing doesn't help leaning about it as he also seems to have the same trees on his own land... Check what court cases were mentioned in connection with Taxin...

[subseasteve]

Those production figures are annual average. Hey man be carefull with the tittle, if you have other assets to borrow against which I am sure you do, the banks would love to lend you the money even if it turns to crap. One way or another they get they're money back.

[tracer]

In my opinion you can assume you can get about 1/4 of the maximum production over the years... As always it depends on kind of trees, labor, weather etc, (in Phuket), and almost nobody can give you a straight answer what can be made....

With current rubber prices its more then worth it.

Don't forget that production goes down after normally 20 years and then its replanting time... 6 years no income! There was some years ago a Malaysian system which tapped the trees every day, rain or no rain but as they didn't sell the taps no idea what happened to it... NO cutting required. I couldn't see it ever being a success in Thailand as farmers are a bit conservative! If you are interested check with the Malaysian Rubber institute...

At least 20,000Bt per day at todays prices selling the raw latex only IMHO. But, beware!!! Why is it being sold. I have oly 20 rai of trees@ just over 3 years old and I wouldn`t sell for 5 millionBt. Plus being a bit of a doubter/sceptic I probably wouldn`t want trees that I hadn`t put in the ground myself because I know exactly what type they are and where they came from. Have they been given the right amount/type of fertilizer on the correct regime?

If you have any experience of rubber trees then you`ll be able to make your own judgement. If not then take someone who has experience to have a look at the plantation and take it from there. In 25 years the sellable value of the wood will get you your 3 million back at@ todays prices. You`ll still have the land and made whatever you`ve made in between.

All in all, far to cheap IMHO. regardless of what title the land has.

P.S. The figures I`ve quoted are just my guestimates from what is being made from the harvesting farms neighbouring mine. I don`t want to get involved in a debate about returns from rubber farms and what split should be given to whom.

P.P.S. If it turns out that the land and the trees are fine, then it`s a definite bargain

Good luck,

Chang35baht.

Would that be 20k baht per day for how many days per year?? Based upon what calculation? I just can't seem to figure this out with the information given above, can you help?

[Lickey]

Good Post Tracer, you have jogged my memory about something that happened 15 months ago,

Mrs uncle was growing rubber tree saplings on her farm, about 1 rai covered beds, in the plastic pockets and red soil..

We had 12 rai doing nothing, we asked uncle to sell us saplings enough for this, he said no no, these only good for south thailand, I thought a rubber tree is a rubber tree and not fussy about height above sea level ect,

Anyway, a truck and trailer came one day and took the lot, some fella handed over a large wad of notes and uncle was very pleased, he said "i stop grow tree now, do what you want with land and cover"

I havent regretted planting papaya and banana in the 12 rai, [had some probs] but not as many as if i looked after 12 rai of rougue rubber trees for 6/7 years and they didnt produce!

Is there anyway of testing a young tree to see if it will produce, does anybody know?

Rgds Lickey..