View On Electric Cars?

[Vato]

whats everyones views on electric cars? the days of slow electrics and short range are gone.

Electrics can get around 60 miles per charge for lead batteries and up to 150 miles for Lithium ion batts nowadays....a trip from srinakarin road to asoke is only 6.5 miles.

If you limit the current to simulate the performance of a petrol car , may go even further...but for some stupid reason all the high performance cars are built for maximum acceleration....instead of maximizing range.

the torque curve is unlike a petrol engine, you get full torque from start off.

so any views on this? ....as im considering going back to the US to manufacture NEV's...because i know this will never work in thailand, the mentality and price point wont allow it.

[torrenova]

Environmental impact will never matter here in my lifetime. Cost is key.

For me, the idea of electric is fine but when you've nearly used the batteries, you cannot just fill them up again like you can with petrol. That is a major flaw.

Maybe nuclear powered cars ?

[Dave the Dude]

I got back from The United Kingdon of Benifits last week and there are loads of them in London now. Very small and dont apear to go any slower than the traffic. Only 2 seater and minimal luggage space but butt ugly. They remind me of those kiddy carts in Big C

Dave

[Vato]

why wouldnt environmental impact matter to you?....these days if you have the proper equipment you can recharge a lithium pack within 15 minutes if you use a high current with a high 's' rated batt pack....ask any RC enthusiast.... it takes 10 minutes to fill up your gas tank and pay already.

you have to ask yourself how far you travel per day...most commutes require less than 40 miles per day...for me the commute would be 13 miles a day, so i wouldnt have to recharge for 4-5 days.

even then if i was using lead acid batts, i would just plug in when im sleeping....

looks is one of the main problems with these electric cars like you mention DavetheDude...i cant for the life of me figure out why they have to make these things look so ugly...im betting its do to manufacturing cost...it would cost alot more to develop a body with nice curves ,as well as develop the lighting to match it (headlights, etc..)

[BSJ]

Moving the environmental and pollution problems away from yourself is not a solution at all.

If the electrical energy is being generated with a coal power station that is worse than using a petrol car.

Plus a petrol car can be converted to gas or have minor adjustments and be run on ethernol.

The internal combustion engine has a lot of life left in it.

And I agree, a lot of electric cars look bad....plus a few petrol ones!

[initiala4]

Well you still need a source of electric to charge it like a nuclear power plant to generate the electricity. So the question comes...will you make the environment better?

[Gravelrash]

Was reading the Volt electric car from Chevrolet can go about 60k on a charge, if longer a petrol engine kicks in to charge the battery. Car looks good, and quite frankly would suit me quite well as usually don't drive beyond that range.

If we are going to get inane comments about coal power stations and thus not helping the environment then we might as well just give up and choke to death. You wouldn't be an American Bush supporter would you?

Get a few solar cells and charge from them...

[torrenova]

.... it takes 10 minutes to fill up your gas tank and pay already.

Where do you fill up ? I stay in the truck, the guys fills the tank from 1/4 to full in about 3 minutes and I pay him through my window.

As for distances, you are limiting yourself to having no choice if you are on the 5th day with only 10km left in the tank. Want to go shopping ? Oh sorry darling, got to plug the car in !

Yes, the long distance future has to be some form of electric vehicle or perhaps hydrogen with the electricity being generated by non polluting renewable sources.

Now what about solar panels on car roofs ?

[Vato]

i guess the fill up time depends on the station around my area the employees are slowwwwwwww to get around to my ride, they stick the nozzle in and come back around and collect payment when they 'notice' its finished filling....i hardly ever find a pump where the attendant is ready to go...but i get lucky every once in a while....

dont forget that with the proper batt technology you can recharge in 15 minutes / toshiba has invented a 10 minute battery....and do you really need to drive that far every single day?...and couldnt you wait 15 mintues while she's putting on her make-up?...use a petrol vehicle for longer trips.

but of course simply thinking in advance and plugging in everynight...you wouldnt have the problem you stated....if i had a full electric i would plug in everynight and charge when the electricity is cheapest at night.

solar panels cant put out enough power/current to power a vehicle for typical use...they may be enough to charge a capacitor bank thats used for initial acceleration but not sustained speed....if your parked all day once you get to the office they may put back a 40% charge for lead acid batts...the 15 minute charging scheme requires electrical potential that is about 300-400% higher than the rated lithium batts rating...

the argument that generating power at a coal plant to charge a car therefore creating more pollution has been proven false...you have to factor in the infrastructure of transporting the fuel from the:

processing plant - cracking the raw petro

middle east - tanker fuel

to storage, - truck fuel

to distributor -truck fuel

then to the gas station via tanker- truck fuel

driving to the gast station - commuter fuel

charcoal is also cleaner than coal.

at the same time you eliminate the need to produce and use transmission fluid and motor oil...further reducing the carbon footprint, the need for exhaust parts are eliminated as well as radiators and fluid....

disposing of batts ? batts have one of the best recycling programs in the world around 95% recycling rate...a used batt = money, in bangkok batt shops give you 200 baht per...then they turn around and sell it to the manufcturer for around 400-500 baht...no ones gonna miss out on this chance for profit.

electricity can be generated via wind, hydro and solar on large scale...further reducing the carbon footprint...the problem is, not enough people are fully knowledeable of alternatives and reluctant to change..and the US is one of the most miserable countries when it comes to alternative energies because the most revenue is derived from petroleum.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Vato

[Kaker]

As for distances, you are limiting yourself to having no choice if you are on the 5th day with only 10km left in the tank. Want to go shopping ? Oh sorry darling, got to plug the car in !

Oh no, darling has to wait 15 min. to go shopping! Whatever shall we do?

[H2oDunc]

I watched a very interesting video the other night. It was called " who killed the electric car " If you google it it comes up. It tells the stoory of GM's EV1 electric car. They leased these cars out around LA and southern USA. Everybody loved them. Then suddenly one day they recalled them all and crushed them. Everybody who had one on lease offered to pay whatever GM wanted to keep their car. To no avail. It seems the car companies do not want to give the public what they want.

Now the manufacturers seem to be opting for the dual transmission cars which have both small petrol engines and battery motors. To me it seems a better option as it gives you the choice but if you only commute short distances then fully electric would be fine. I dont think the big oil companies want to see many of these cars on the road and to me thats the big obstacle. With battery power getting better very quickly its only a matter of time.

[Gary A]

I know it's not likely but electric cars could have a great future IF the batteries were standardized. Stop at a fuel station, pull the expended battery out and slide in a charged one. This would require the stations to maintain the batteries and eliminate the consumer having to ever buy a new battery.

Years ago we used electric fork trucks. They would run a full eight hour shift. At the end of the shift, the driver would lift the expended battery out with an electric chain fall and put in a fresh charged battery. He hooked up the charger to the expended battery and it would be charged by the next shift change.

[Vato]

the Gm volt used nickel-cadmium batteries ,it was the first chemistry to be viable for use in electric cars....the patent was sold to Chevron and they put it on the shelf...the patent expires within 5 years i believe...much more durable than lithium and not as choosy regarding charging systems, but not as light...although with a longer charge time...when the patent expires i expect things to change for the better.

most batteries are put out of service by 2 things: sulfate build up and warping of the lead plates....sulfate buildup is hard to cure but a well designed batery such as the traction batteries gary mentioned can be used to a very low depth of discharge without warping of the plates do to a very robust design....the point is, standard lead acid car batteries can be designed to last longer, but that wouldnt accomodate sales...of course you could use a deep cycle battery and get similiar performance...but not the life you would out of a traction battery.

in locomotive engines, they use a diesel engine to turn a generator, which powers the electric motor...and have been getting excellent efficiency.

if car companies make electric cars mainstream, they will lose tons of revenue...the only way to make any after sales service money, is in the batteries.

you basicly have 3 parts to an electric cars power train:

1.battery

2.motor

3.speed controller

sometimes there is a 4th part which is the 1-2 gear transmission, but these are mainly for gear reduction to get the motor to run in the best efficiency curve, and usually built into the motor as a planetary gear...but doesnt require any hydraulic fluid just some molybedium or lithium grease which last the life of the motor.

i like the idea of having a back up generator incase power is used up... may even have to try it and see what kind of efficiency i can get out of it....imagine if you coud get 100 miles per gallon...you would basicly be getting close to motorcycle efficiency but in a car/truck....there have been reports of people getting upwards of 50 miles per gallon using this scheme...

[BSJ]

PV Solar, concentrated solar, wind and wave power are gradually growing in the electrical generation field. Maybe by 2020 they will comprise 12 to 15% of total. The same will happen with electric cars in the personal transportation field. But the motor industry has many options to extend the role of IC engines, even algae is being considered for bio fuel. You cannot simply disregard petrol and bio-fuels as the main source of power for the next 3 decades. Electric cars may have some market share for sure, say 3 to 5% by 2020. But with so many factors at play no revolution in motoring will take place!

Personally, I won't change from an IC car to anything else till the new tech has proven itself, especially batteries. Bet I am not alone with that!

[Vato]

the technology has already proven itself....a company founded by students of MIT called A123 have created a lithium phosphate battery that is extremely durable...with a very high cycle life...batt capacity stays linear throughout its life of usage, which is projected at approx 5-7 years...but the cost is very high, in the range of $12000...but not everyone needs lithium batts.

for a 'cheap' lead acid battery setup with a 4 hour charging time, you would need about twenty 100 ah batteries for a 120 volt 200 ampere system thats a 24000 'rms' watt system ...

1 fuel horsepower equals 750 watts....but the hp rating for an electric motor is not rated the same as a 'fuel' system

24000 watts would equals 32 fuel hp...which is the equivalent of approx 70 electric hp....and remember the torque curve is strongest from start....not 6000 rpm as in a fuel engine so if you add the total cost for 20 batteries that would be about $2500 US with a cost to charge of about $20 a month, would total $2740 for first year....

compared with gasoline and a fuel bill of $300 a month which equals $3600 per year...you would save money the first year....and all the other subsequent years would just be money saved with a batt life of 5 years, even longer if you maintain them very strictly.

the 24000 watt 'RMS' rating is a lowball rating, because the electric motor can draw more than that, it depends on what you set the motor controller at....if you set the current limit to 500 amps, with a 120 volt series setup....you woud have 60000 watts or 80 'fuel' hp...which would equal to approx 150 electric hp....an thats off the line, not high into the powerband and imagine what you could do with the extra cash you saved from using petro...

in the figures above, that would equal $16,800 within a 5 year period....and thats only if you spend $300 US a month on fuel...$500 a month and you'l save $28,000 in 5 years...and what f you are a 2 car household....getting interesting now?...i cant think of any mutual fund or bond thats going to pay me returns of that amount on my modest income.

if youre worried about the hp ratings...do you really ever drive your car at redline in the 5k-7k rpm range? where the hp figures are highest?....you'll be tasting maybe 50hp with your 150 hp engine with normal in city drivng about 30% more on the freeway...with an electric you can get busy off the line and smoke the fuel car next to you.

for some super exotic electric cars check out :

Tesla roadster

Venturi fetish

these cars are expensive, but were designed to make a statement...that electrics are dependable and can smoke petro cars....or just look at the nearest golf cart...or the psychos at the natioal electric drag racing association.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Vato

[unomi]

I know it's not likely but electric cars could have a great future IF the batteries were standardized. Stop at a fuel station, pull the expended battery out and slide in a charged one. This would require the stations to maintain the batteries and eliminate the consumer having to ever buy a new battery.

Years ago we used electric fork trucks. They would run a full eight hour shift. At the end of the shift, the driver would lift the expended battery out with an electric chain fall and put in a fresh charged battery. He hooked up the charger to the expended battery and it would be charged by the next shift change.

They do use that scheme in Nepal, they use them for public transportation ala song thaews.

http://www.expressindia.com/news/ie/daily/...5/ige05053.html

It doesnt mention that in that article for some reason, but i saw a docu on it awhile ago.

If the battery is placed and fitted in an intelligent way it would be fairly easy to do at a 'petrol station'

also:

In November 1997, Ford purchased a fast-charge system produced by AeroVironment called "PosiCharge" for testing its fleets of Ranger EVs, which charged their lead-acid batteries in between six and fifteen minutes. In February 1998, General Motors announced a version of its "Magne Charge" system which could recharge NiMH batteries in about ten minutes, providing a range of sixty to one hundred miles.^[3]

^{source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removable_battery}

[unomi]

The idea that it wouldn't be more economical and less polluting to transport electricity to cars rather than petrol is pretty novel, care to expound on that little leap of logic?

Moving the environmental and pollution problems away from yourself is not a solution at all.

[Lebowski]

Hi Vato.

I agree with you. Electric vehicles are up to 99% better for the environment (UK Government Quote) and about 85% cheaper to run (My own Statistics), so why isn't everybody using them.?

My guess is that within 5 years 80-100% of all new personal/family/community vehicles produced and sold will be electric/hybrid/hydrogen fuel cell etc.

However, it may be quicker than that (if we're lucky but most likely, as suggested by H2oDunc, it will take longer, as the people who make combustion engines and people that own oil companies play a lot of golf together, and someones gotta pay for my yaught goddammmit!

[Vato]

unomi's link t the magne charger is interesting...never knew it existed.

im guessing EVs arent popular do to lack of public awareness...not to mention fugly designs...once people get the range factor into their heads and realize they dont drive to the beach everyday, people may start to realize and change.

people have been programmed to take the easiest route, while afraid to take the chance in making a change...while also looking to keep a certain amount of 'bling bling 'in their lives.

its ironic that the people playing golf from the car companies and petro companies are riding around the course on a electric powered golf carts.... wonder why they arent powered by gasoline.

[unomi]

Yeah it is hard.

Consider that all this information IS actually out there, and people seem to be fighting against absorbing it.

'Who killed the electric Car' is a pretty good docu, but how many have seen it? how many would agree to see it given the chance?

Most people seem to take zero responsibility for acquiring knowledge.

If you are interested in low impact technologies perhaps you will like this resource:

http://practicalaction.org/?id=technical_information_service

back when they were called itdg they had alot of information on power generation, everything from solar water heaters to rewiring household fans into wind generators.

[torrenova]

I think most educated people know electric vehicles are better for the environment but they are sceptical and manufacturers are not offering a product which is acceptable. You have to figure in the depreciation for a vehicle which may or may not have a secondary market. That scares purchasers away big time.

[Vato]

<br />I think most educated people know electric vehicles are better for the environment but they are sceptical and manufacturers are not offering a product which is acceptable. You have to figure in the depreciation for a vehicle which may or may not have a secondary market. That scares purchasers away big time.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Unomi, that link is an information bomb! lotsa good stuff...

skepticism is one of the main problems like you say torrenova, maybe the leasing program the GM EV-1 had set up is the way to go in the beginning to develop trust in the product...why wont someone develop a beautifully sexy electric car?.... ok, i'll volunteer... i'll do it...

what would it take to convince people?

1.Nice body

2.Good power

3.Same cost as petro

4.Safety

5.Warrantee

6.Distance....(ummmm...)

7.Seating

8.Cost of operation

anymore thoughts?

[BSJ]

Hi unomi, you pull into the driveway in your new electric car and the neighbours swell around oohing and arring as you tell them "it's an electric car and all I have to do is plug it in, no need for a gas station!" And you are right.

But where does the power come from? How does it get to your house? Well it most likely comes from a coal fired or nuclear power plant and its delivered on an already over stretched supply grid! Unless of course you invest in a PV system at your home...which may not be effective if the car is only there a few hours a day.

Granted there are costs in getting gas to your nearest fuel site, plus the IC engine at best is only 35% efficient, which is crap. It is an inefficient system, but so is the electric grid. The coal has to be dug, shipped and burned, cost cost and more cost. Then the generators at the power plant are only 90% efficient, plus the cost of the spinning reserve. Then theres the distibution loses, more cost. By the time it gets into your batteries your down to 7-8% efficiency. Not so great is it? Even your average monocrytalline PV panel is good for 14%.

So I think we are better of sticking with IC engines fueled with gas or bi-fuel for the next decade or 2!

[Lebowski]

I know it's not likely but electric cars could have a great future IF the batteries were standardized. Stop at a fuel station, pull the expended battery out and slide in a charged one. This would require the stations to maintain the batteries and eliminate the consumer having to ever buy a new battery.

Years ago we used electric fork trucks. They would run a full eight hour shift. At the end of the shift, the driver would lift the expended battery out with an electric chain fall and put in a fresh charged battery. He hooked up the charger to the expended battery and it would be charged by the next shift change.

Standardised Batteries. Careful.............. that ideas so good that its dangerous for your health...

You could compete with the oil barons overnight. jfk comes to mind

[Lebowski]

Hi unomi, you pull into the driveway in your new electric car and the neighbours swell around oohing and arring as you tell them "it's an electric car and all I have to do is plug it in, no need for a gas station!" And you are right.

But where does the power come from? How does it get to your house? Well it most likely comes from a coal fired or nuclear power plant and its delivered on an already over stretched supply grid! Unless of course you invest in a PV system at your home...which may not be effective if the car is only there a few hours a day.

Granted there are costs in getting gas to your nearest fuel site, plus the IC engine at best is only 35% efficient, which is crap. It is an inefficient system, but so is the electric grid. The coal has to be dug, shipped and burned, cost cost and more cost. Then the generators at the power plant are only 90% efficient, plus the cost of the spinning reserve. Then theres the distibution loses, more cost. By the time it gets into your batteries your down to 7-8% efficiency. Not so great is it? Even your average monocrytalline PV panel is good for 14%.

So I think we are better of sticking with IC engines fueled with gas or bi-fuel for the next decade or 2!

BSJ if you worked on a share message board on yahoo you would be known as a basha!

[Lebowski]

H20Dunc - Good Insight.

UNOMI - Great information

Cheers Chaps

Lebowski

[BSJ]

Lebowski: BSJ if you worked on a share message board on yahoo you would be known as a basha!

Huh???

[Lebowski]

Hi BSJ!

In share dealing you have certain people who get paid to hype up shares in useless companies on message boards and forums, they are known as "Pumpers" and their aim is to buy stock low, create a buzz (with no justifiable reason) and then sell when the hysteria carries the share up on false pretences (it then usually plummets.

Bashers / Basha's work in the opposite way. They "Short" shares at regular to high prices and then proceed to spread bad ideas about a perfectly decent product until fear catches investors, they sell, the price drops and they make their money.

I was just having a joke about how a few here are seriously pro EV's and some aren't

Absoulutely nothing rude mate!

[unomi]

It is true that there are some hurdles and that some modifications to the energy infrastructure will be needed, but heck, thats what engineers are for.

But where does the power come from? How does it get to your house? Well it most likely comes from a coal fired or nuclear power plant and its delivered on an already over stretched supply grid! Unless of course you invest in a PV system at your home...which may not be effective if the car is only there a few hours a day.

Granted there are costs in getting gas to your nearest fuel site, plus the IC engine at best is only 35% efficient, which is crap. It is an inefficient system, but so is the electric grid. The coal has to be dug, shipped and burned, cost cost and more cost. Then the generators at the power plant are only 90% efficient, plus the cost of the spinning reserve. Then theres the distibution loses, more cost. By the time it gets into your batteries your down to 7-8% efficiency. Not so great is it? Even your average monocrytalline PV panel is good for 14%.

So I think we are better of sticking with IC engines fueled with gas or bi-fuel for the next decade or 2!

One way to get around an upgrade of the electricity grid would be to see smaller community oriented powerplants springing up around methane producers such as we see in the livestock industry.

Recent CPV developments include commercially available panels rated at 37-40% efficiency

http://www.reuk.co.uk/40-Percent-Efficienc...olar-Panels.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrating_solar_power

Granted CPV may not yet be for the everyman, but it would certinaly be interesting for local business' either for internal use or as a reseller.

Even using 'traditional' pv which now stands at around 20% efficiency, if you allow for a design that lets you swap batteries, you could let your batteries charge slowly and 'refill' your car quickly.

relating combustion efficiency where you lose your original source of energy to the situation with solar where the source is very much renewable is apples to oranges.

I agree with you that coal plants are costly, and they would be more so if the total costs would be factored in. The idea is to think in terms of how do we solve the problems we face.

[Vato]

The blanket statement that efficiency of electrical transmission is a mere 7-8% cannot apply to all localities or countries...as there are around 10,000 distribution stations in America alone...some are very much highly efficient and others are poorer...and is dependent on load...this is why you charge an EV during non peak hours.

You simply cannot use the lowest efficiency figure obtained from the most highly electrically bottlenecked city, to apply to all locations throughout the world.

apart from this,..... U.S.-wide transmission and distribution losses were about 5% in 1970, and grew to 9.5% in 2001... <<google this phrase ...which contradicts greatly from the claim of 7-8%....Source US department of Energy.

according to Joule's Law, the losses are proportional to the square of the current, halving the current makes the transmission loss one quarter the original value.

Due to the large amount of power (power=voltage x current) involved, transmission normally takes place at high voltage (110 kV or above) thats 110,000volts...and voltages of around 33kv (33,000 volts) are usually used for distribution.

if power from the generating facility starts off at 110/220 volts and there are no step up/down transformers inline before they get to your home...then BSJ's efficiency numbers would be correct...

BUT inbetween the generating facility and home there are a series of stepup/down transformers which are designed to increase efficiency.

This is the reason why Thomas Edison's plan of distributon of electricity via DC was not viable...you cannot step up or down DC...because you have to use inductance from a primary winding, to induce a current into a secondary winding.

Nikola Tesla's implementation of AC transmission while working with George Westinghouse allowed for very high frequency electricity, which allowed for maximum efficiency to be obtained via stepping the voltages up then backing them down once they get to your block or substation....AFTER the long run from the generating facility.

most homes which are not geared for efficiency, also bring the efficiency rating down even further.On average a home loses 15% when the power line hits the meter installed on the house do to improper grounding and inefficient appliances and insulation...this alone is THE biggest factor in efficiency lonce it gets to your home...its our own fault folks.

another consideration is the distance from the power plant to your home, the loss is linear...it is obvious that a home located closer to the power plant will experience better efficiency than a home farther away.

There is also one fundamental flaw in comparing petro vs electric vehicles:

THERE IS NO EXHAUST COMING OUT OF AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE.