How To Deal With 'criminals"

[Gary A]

Drugs are responsible for a lot of what is wrong not only here in Thailand but in the rest of the world as well. People who sell drugs are indeed scumbags and those who keep those scumbags in business are not far behind them. When one of you "innocents" get caught, then you cry the blues. I for one won't feel a bit sorry for you being in a Thai monkey house. The laws of each country are different and if you don't like the laws of the country you are in, LEAVE that country!

[Maizefarmer]

Drug dealers - the one good thing Thaksin was responsible for: dealing with them quickly and efficiently.

Sorry, but I have little time for narcotic dealers - compleltly useless to society they are: capital punishment - end of problem.

[ourmaninbangers]

Drugs are responsible for a lot of what is wrong not only here in Thailand but in the rest of the world as well. People who sell drugs are indeed scumbags and those who keep those scumbags in business are not far behind them. When one of you "innocents" get caught, then you cry the blues. I for one won't feel a bit sorry for you being in a Thai monkey house. The laws of each country are different and if you don't like the laws of the country you are in, LEAVE that country!

drugs? which ones please, can anyone on TV be specific,

I am guessing you are not including the most popular ones which cause the most damage, why? or are you?

and yet, are legal because they fund our arms hungry goverments to spend that money in far better more progressive ways, like stopping its subjects thinking for themselves like mature people by blocking certain websites .

Yes, lets all obey every single law there is without question. Oh how correct nietsche was about the sheep in this world.

How little we have progressed.

Yes, lets all blame everything on them, lets take away freewill, and forget that before the laws like this there was very little trouble.And that these laws have been proven to be a total failure.Not for the rich mafia dons though.. they just love them...

And what nonsense is this, another totally wrong statement with so many holes which almost makes me laugh

'The laws of each country..blah, blah blah ..my goodness, what are you on my friend?

I know that Sir, and to be honest the simple answer is NO! period- end of story , why even bother coming out with such nonsense retoric such as that

better run for the UK tory party,

are you one of those ones who honestly think- take drugs( illegal ones) =ruin you life, go to jail.

All laws are good and should obey without question.

This is most defintatly not always the case however much the sheep wish it were.

If everyone followed your logic thailand would not be on the map because a vast amount of people come here for the purpose of breaking a law- whoring it is called. Paying a poor impoverished female victim to do something she would not choose to do if given the chance( stop kidding yourself that she wants to be with you) and if her country had its own affairs in order.And I think this is far, far worse than any drug dealer/taker.

Attention all men who pay for sex -according to this gent who just posted you must now leave the country! Thats it- over said and done, do not ask me how,or him, just go!

I rest my case.

I will/do respect most laws. Most should.Ones which tell me how to enjoy myself when and how I choose, when I hurt nobody else are stupid( men who pay for sex are hurting someelse), pointless and deserve to be ignored.And will be.

Like the old laws against, blacks and gays, etc.Imagine if we all followed you enlightend way of thinking.

Which is what I will continue to do because I am not one those sheep who blindly follow what they are told to do by less than a moral leadership who, like most goverments only concern is to stay in power, not the well being of its people.

Oh and by the way, save you sorrow, I know of nobody of my inner circle who has had any trouble, cried the blues, or any of that.The others who did have a problem paid their way out.

You know what is really responsible for most of worlds problems...the sheep...and I mean this in not disrespect-nothing personal, I critise not you personaly, but your way of thinking( or lack of it) people like you,

people who are so vague, people who make silly little attention grabbing nonsense statements with so many holes they beggar belief, people who blindly follow the man made laws without question ,hup, hup, hup, people who never admit when wrong and who have that 'hang ,em high mentality... capital punishment means one day an innocent man will die.

This has been proven tuime and time again- want that? is that good?

I cannot see much progress until we totally re-think everything, get rid of stupid impractical failed laws, educate the sheep to use that thing they are born with called a brain,put moneys where it should go( like helping stop women sell themselves)

research our subjects properly and think problem avoidance rather than cure.. come on people, put your headline statemnts away- is this working? is it good?

and when handing down "justice" do so from a prespective of fairness and beneverlence with a chance of rehab for those who want it

exuse my bad english and rudeness tones

[GuestHouse]

^

When I gave 'my deffinition' of Scumbag and included Druggies (and by the way drunks) I don't recall giving the reason for them being in my definition as being 'because they break the law'.

Though I did have in mind the wave of crime these two groups give rise to. Drunks being the most frequent pepetrators of violent crime and druggies specializing in house breaking and other property theft.

---

And while throwing around accusations of people being sheep, it would be instructive to take a look if 'sheep like tendencies' are at the root of why many people get into Drugs.

Edited November 15, 2008 by GuestHouse

[ourmaninbangers]

^

When I gave 'my deffinition' of Scumbag and included Druggies (and by the way drunks) I don't recall giving the reason for them being in my definition as being 'because they break the law'.

Though I did have in mind the wave of crime these two groups give rise to. Drunks being the most frequent pepetrators of violent crime and druggies specializing in house breaking and other property theft.

---

And while throwing around accusations of people being sheep, it would be instructive to take a look if 'sheep like tendencies' are at the root of why many people get into Drugs.

it is good point. Again- when you say drugs I take this to mean the illegal ones because we like to forget all the other more damaging ones here.

I will explain why one cannot really apply it . Although I suppose at times one could.

The sheep are the masses, the tax paying, 9- 5pm,law following robots who blindly follows any man made law, choose to believe the nonsense we are taught by our moral leaders ( all crimes are wrong- all criminal will go to jail, drugs will ruin your life, you must work hard for a living)

simply because it is a law, without any question- a sheep( a nietshes term which I think is most applicable) is the majority of the population.

Without them this false society could not exist, nor could the mafia as it counts on the sheep to follow much of the advice given here. Most will follow those stupid laws, thus making them rich.

The ironic thing is- it is these sheep who are keeping them there, who are preventing the very thing they wish to change from happening, but do not understand this.

They cling to the brainwashed ego based opinions and remain. The brainwashers have a done a good job if TV is anything to go by.A good example and my favorite is one well meaning gentleman who infromed us that smoking 1 joint was 20 times more poison than 1 cigerette. Totally unable to answer even one single question on this huge faux paux he( the trademark of the sheep) , urged the freethinkers do some research..! ( the kicker!)and made the usual sheep statements- you will go to jail- drugs will ruin your life-nothing I say can change your mind. He was an epitome of that mentality and a greater friend the mafia, and the brainwashers could never have.

A person who choose to break the law may do so for many reasons. Impluse,unaware, etc.

Some( not all) will use that born gift we all have called freewill and exercise it. I beleve that it only by starting to use this can progress be possible.

They will question who made these laws, what purpose they serve, and why should they be told what to do with their own bodys, when they are doing nobody any harm( argueable including themselves), and simple enjoying themselves.

It is this questioning of what they have been told to do- weighing it all and deciding not to, that makes them unable to qualify for the sheep label.Not all non sheep are good of coures, some are downright

generally however I do agree that most laws do serve a purpose and should be obeyed. Saying one must obey the law because they are in someones country( espically a country which is basicly a defacto western colony and inacted drugs not because it choose to, but was told to do is pointless,silly- that will never happen.If it did we would all stil be in the dark ages.

it is the people who open up and question things, put aside the ego,use feewill, admit when wrong, are not ego based, that we should really listen to if, we truly want to make any sort of meaningful progress.I think we all want same thing. Disarm the mafia by stopping them making so much, put moneys where it should be( welfare, education, medical), punish( i prefer reform , although I admit I have seen some who this is most unlikely), the bad ones, lets the others go and stop wasting so much time,money , energy

well, thats what I think, I may be completley wrong too!

peace ( wink wink)

[Gary A]

I spent my young adulthood during the late sixties when enlightened people like you were experimenting with new man made drugs. Friends and classmates of mine were convinced that these drugs were the greatest things that were ever discovered. They progressed from the "harmless" marijuana to try whatever became available. I frequently think about these adventurous people and wonder what they would have become if they had not turned into losers, homeless bums and finally died with nothing. Yes, I blame their early deaths on drugs. While I am certainly not an expert, I certainly have seen the damage that these drugs do.

You talk about the profits made from legal drugs. If the illegal drugs were to be legalized, would not the governments collect HUGE taxes from these drugs? Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps profits are secondary to protecting the majority of the people? Hopefully the people who make these laws are indeed thinking beyond the profits.

[GuestHouse]

I think ourmaninbangers makes a very good case for the damage drugs can do to an individual’s mind:

“It’s a conspiracy”…. “They are trying to control us”…. “The hidden agenda”…. “The masses are manipulated” … “You’ve all been brainwashed”.

“But not me”…. “I escaped”….. “I’m a free thinker”….

“It’s YOUR EGO that prevents YOU from seeing things MY WAY”

[Pushit]

Criminals? Try Thai Police Mafia

[elkangorito]

If I think someone is a scumbag, they ARE a scumbag. I have a right to my opinion and if you have a different opinion, that's up to you.

I fully agree with you Gary, providing that you are not using someone elses law to form your opinion.

I think you are describing the "natural process" perfectly. Although this process may be unpleasant for some, I feel that it is, on the whole, fairer for all.

Since others are happy to describe what kind of people they consider to be scumbags, so shall I. I think that the worlds biggest scumbags are those who wish to control others in any way, shape or form...particularly for "law abiding" reasons.

If Mr X decides to call someone a scumbag because that someone personally interfered with him, well & good.

If Mr X decides to call someone a scumbag because that someone didn't interfere with him but did break a "law", not well & good. In this case, Mr X is a control freak & in my opinion is a scumbag.

[GuestHouse]

If Mr X decides to call someone a scumbag because that someone personally interfered with him, well & good.

If Mr X decides to call someone a scumbag because that someone didn't interfere with him but did break a "law", not well & good. In this case, Mr X is a control freak & in my opinion is a scumbag.

The problem with that definition is it defines an individual as 'Control Freak' where they act to prevent harm to someone else where they themselves are not at risk.

For example, where they call the police to apprehend an adult who they observe staggering drunkedly into their car and about to set off with children as passengers. Or where they call the police social services when they reasonably believe that a parent is abusing/neglecting his/her children.

Sorry Elkan it just does not fit.

[ourmaninbangers]

I think ourmaninbangers makes a very good case for the damage drugs can do to an individual's mind:

"It's a conspiracy"…. "They are trying to control us"…. "The hidden agenda"…. "The masses are manipulated" … "You've all been brainwashed".

"But not me"…. "I escaped"….. "I'm a free thinker"….

"It's YOUR EGO that prevents YOU from seeing things MY WAY"

the problem with that is that I came to these conclusions long, long before I ever took anything and in my student days I was very aware of the european drug scene without being one of the users.And in those days I was the odd girl out for this and made to feel unwelcome.

So that theory, like all others thrown back does not quiet work out. Maybe I was born mad! I am far more prepeared to accept that!

Did I ever use any of the words you have ascribed to me...? answer- no, not really.In fact I cannot see one straight quote. Do you need to exagerate/misquote to 'win" can we agree on anything?

I also totally agree that some drugs, and other things are very bad and should be avoided. So should the blind nonsense put out to keep the mases in line.

And I would be stupid to say such drastic as the comments you said I did.

My issue is that we should not be labeling people who partake of soft drugs as ' scumbags' and waste so much time/money/energy on putting them in jail.

They are not " bad" they are so many and the money used on them is just wasted.

I have the close friend who is police. before sense preveilled I was told how it was a policy, by that police force to not pursue soft drug case because they knew the waste of the resource, and then I investigated and firmly now beleive. If I wrong, please help understand why. Musquoting me, putting words in my mouth, saying those 1 in 20 things is not going to persude me.

What do you want? is it not the same as me? ( less crime, money spent in postive ways, the really bad ones sent for the punsihements, the maifia disempowered) lets get on same page please.

A middle road is needed. Do you think what is happening now is both working and good? can you answer any of my question,instead of putting words into my mouth.

sincerely

[PhilHarries]

I think we've established that "scumbag" is anybody whose behaviour is abhorrent to yourself.

Whilst you are basking in the limelight of your own self revelation take a moment out and look over your shoulder.

Chances are someone's calling you a scumbag.

A person is entitled to live their life how they want to provided they don't break any of society's laws and their actions do not adversely impact on the lives and wellbeing of others.

[GuestHouse]

I think we've established that "scumbag" is anybody whose behaviour is abhorrent to yourself.

Whilst you are basking in the limelight of your own self revelation take a moment out and look over your shoulder.

Chances are someone's calling you a scumbag.

A person is entitled to live their life how they want to provided they don't break any of society's laws and their actions do not adversely impact on the lives and wellbeing of others.

I agree entirely. But then I'm not the one who came up with this little gem.

Saying one must obey the law because they are in someones country( espically a country which is basicly a defacto western colony and inacted drugs not because it choose to, but was told to do is pointless,silly- that will never happen.If it did we would all stil be in the dark ages

While only semi-coherant, it is nevertheless a call to disregard the laws of your host country, in this case Thailand.

[tmd5855]

Noted a few posters talking about drugs when they were younger and experimenting with all manner of things.

Realise that curiousity is what took man out of caves to where we are now (good or bad mai roo). Except taking drugs is not out of curiousity, more like an ego trip. "I want to be a rebel"/cool". "Bet people are impressed with me".

Seeing and experiencing the heartache and loss that drugs and it's effects can have on the individual and their family. Believe you need to have something missing in your head or life to take drugs.

So called soft drugs like cannabis has had devastating effects on young people I knew. From energetic, go getters who were assured a place at the good fortune table, lost it all. Became lethargic and could not care less about their world/future......

I drink, sometimes to excess and feel ill in the morning. That is me out of action for two days. Makes me angry with myself for being so stupid.

Drugs are for losers, you may not think so but they take thier toll over the years, out of your body, relationships and mind.

[sgunn65]

Believe you need to have something missing in your head or life to take drugs.

I believe the previous poster has near enough hit the nail on the head here. In my professional capacity I have spent years with drug addicts and almost all of them have something missing in their lives, be it from upbringing, education or personal development. For most hard core addicts drugs are not the problem they have become the answer.

Many people find themselves on the edges of our society and don't know how to fit in or get back in. Drugs keep the pain at arms length.

Should a child who was abused who ends up on drugs be labelled scum? Should a woman who was sold into the sex trade and uses heroin to dull the pain of a dozen saddo's a day using her, be labelled as scum.

Yes there are people who were abused who have made a success of their lives but not everyone has the skills to do that. I was a drug addict for years, now I have a successful business here in LOS (and I had an abusive childhood some of which was spent in care). What does that make me? To some of you I am a scumbag because of my past. Others might consider that I am redeemed by my current success. But I am only now a success because there are people out there who cared enough to look past the labels and help me to help myself.

There is little in this world that is black or white, so how about a little more tolerance and pigeonholing. When there are posts like this I am always reminded of the stereotyping that goes with tattoo's. When I was in the sea suffering from hypothermia and about 10 minutes from dead the hand that grabbed me from the lifeboat had LOVE tattooed on his fingers. Some would see that and automatically think Yob, Thug or, indeed scumbag but he risks his life for no money whenever he is called on. Don't judge a book by the cover.

Edited November 16, 2008 by sgunn65

[PhilHarries]

So called soft drugs like cannabis has had devastating effects on young people I knew. From energetic, go getters who were assured a place at the good fortune table, lost it all. Became lethargic and could not care less about their world/future......

Well I was so incensed by the intimation that drunks are scumbags I went down to WA Bar and had a couple of pints (and fried cheese sticks and onion rings) so now feel able to put the scumbag's point of view over.

Just jokin', well not about the couple of pints and fries.

I wonder if those people you knew really were assured a place at the top table? Alcohol and soft drugs tend to seek out weaknesses in character or buried internal problems/conflicts and bring them to the surface quicker and in a more obvious appearance than otherwise. Maybe they were destined to be what they turned out to be. Many people are driven by a multitude of factors to strive to be what they are not. Some by grim dogged determination get there but are inwardly not happy and others just fall by the wayside because it's not what they want to do. Alcohol and drugs just make the drop out decision easier.

Anyhow we've only touched on one part of the OP's topic. We have defined, in various ways and forms, the term scumbag.

But how should we deal with criminals? My question here is are we talking about criminals in Thailand in general or are we talking about the petty crooks that find their way here from the backwaters of farangland? Either way it really is for the Thai judicial system to deal with both groups as they see fit. But would we be willing to see the death sentence carried out on a fellow foreigner for drug smuggling knowing that he/she was little more a hapless mule and, likely as not, set up by the BiB and convicted by a seriously flawed system? Difficult question, for sure drug smugglers deserve the full weight of the law but is the death penalty a deterrent?

Same doubts exist for such crimes as murder and assault. If the punishment fitted the crime and was meted out without discrimination to locals as much as farangs then there is a good case for it. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

But should we worry about it all? If someone goes to a foreign counry and gets mixed up with criminal activities who cares if they get banged up over it rightly or wrongly? Well we all would if it was our brother or son who was just in the wrong lace with the wrong people at the wrong time.

Anyhow it is now 00:17 and time for bed.

G'night all.

[Huey]

I, like I'm sure most people, prefer fairly administrated stern justice with focus on prevention and protection of law abiding citizens.

However when it comes to Drugs I love what Saudi Arabia dose. Drugs, their use or sale is dam near a death sentence, and not just that, its usually public and quite brutal. If you ever lived in a once thriving neighborhood only to watch the slow, dignity robbing death that drugs like crack and meth bring to it and the folks who live there, then you may understand. I wish America killed declassified marijuana as a drug and then killed drug dealers and users like they do in Saudi.

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

I was a drug addict for years, now I have a successful business here in LOS (and I had an abusive childhood some of which was spent in care). What does that make me? To some of you I am a scumbag because of my past. Others might consider that I am redeemed by my current success. But I am only now a success because there are people out there who cared enough to look past the labels and help me to help myself.

Perhaps you are still considered a "scumbag" by some because you didn't "pay penance" for your sins? The "law" is not clear in this matter.

There is little in this world that is black or white, so how about a little more tolerance and a little less pigeonholing. When there are posts like this I am always reminded of the stereotyping that goes with tattoo's. When I was in the sea suffering from hypothermia and about 10 minutes from dead the hand that grabbed me from the lifeboat had LOVE tattooed on his fingers. Some would see that and automatically think Yob, Thug or, indeed scumbag but he risks his life for no money whenever he is called on. Don't judge a book by the cover.

I think the above poster has the right idea.

I wonder if those people you knew really were assured a place at the top table? Alcohol and soft drugs tend to seek out weaknesses in character or buried internal problems/conflicts and bring them to the surface quicker and in a more obvious appearance than otherwise. Maybe they were destined to be what they turned out to be. Many people are driven by a multitude of factors to strive to be what they are not. Some by grim dogged determination get there but are inwardly not happy and others just fall by the wayside because it's not what they want to do. Alcohol and drugs just make the drop out decision easier.

A combination of not realising the "self" & an inability to "connect" with others perhaps.

But how should we deal with criminals? My question here is are we talking about criminals in Thailand in general or are we talking about the petty crooks that find their way here from the backwaters of farangland? Either way it really is for the Thai judicial system to deal with both groups as they see fit. But would we be willing to see the death sentence carried out on a fellow foreigner for drug smuggling knowing that he/she was little more a hapless mule and, likely as not, set up by the BiB and convicted by a seriously flawed system? Difficult question, for sure drug smugglers deserve the full weight of the law but is the death penalty a deterrent?

The Death Sentence doesn't work therefore it is not a deterrent. If it did work, there would be "three fifths of five eighths of bugger all" drug smugglers/users.

Same doubts exist for such crimes as murder and assault. If the punishment fitted the crime and was meted out without discrimination to locals as much as farangs then there is a good case for it. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

Sad but true. But this is the "law".

But should we worry about it all? If someone goes to a foreign counry and gets mixed up with criminal activities who cares if they get banged up over it rightly or wrongly? Well we all would if it was our brother or son who was just in the wrong lace with the wrong people at the wrong time.

Anyhow it is now 00:17 and time for bed.

G'night all.

A good post Phil.

It is all too easy to relax at home & wish the worst upon people whom are not known to you. Any of us can watch the news & see so called "criminals" being dealt "justice". Some will lounge back magnanimously & say something like, "Serves the bastard right" when this "criminal" was not known, in any way, by the news viewer.

A "Not the Nine O'clock News" (BBC England) sketch comes to mind. The scene is as follows (in red):

In rather edgy and very funny Atkinson monologue, the actor plays a conservative politician addressing his party about immigration. "A lot of immigrants are from Pakistan and India... and I like curry. But now that we've got the recipes, is there any reason for them to stay?" Later on, he talks about solutions to juvenile violence:

This party feels we've been just a little too soft on these bastards. Mr. Whitehill has spoken of the 'short, sharp, shock treatment' and his introduction of the 24,000 volt electric chair to two home office detention centers begins next week...on a purely experimental basis, of course. If it doesn't work, then we will be more than prepared to revert to the old liberal, wishy-washy, socialist, nigger-loving, Red, left-wing, homosexual, commie ways of the recent past.

[elkangorito]

However when it comes to Drugs I love what Saudi Arabia dose. Drugs, their use or sale is dam near a death sentence, and not just that, its usually public and quite brutal. If you ever lived in a once thriving neighborhood only to watch the slow, dignity robbing death that drugs like crack and meth bring to it and the folks who live there, then you may understand. I wish America killed declassified marijuana as a drug and then killed drug dealers and users like they do in Saudi.

Well, it's nice to see someone who loves brutality for a change. Most of us here are boring "non brutal" types. A change is as good as a holiday...unless YOU are in control.

[deon]

i Take offence at being called a scumbag ,as i smoke cannabis does that make me a bad person nope far from it .The law on Cannabis around the world is unjust and stupid .The Dutch have it right ,I have used e in the past many many years of taking acid and whizz .

Though all thats in the past now i dont drink, and cant stand the stuff or drunks .Though i have smoked herb for other 25 years and i dont smoke cigrets .Dont tar all people with the same brush.

Alot of people who are very ill, use cannabis. Does that make them a SCUM BAGS as you say i am sure some of my friends with hiv and ms like being called that .

Cannbis courses no problems its the unjust laws of the lands that do .ps the Dutch have one of the lowest rates of drug use in the eu ,and thelowest rates of cannbis use .An England has one of the highest.

You lot work it out it does not take a rocket scientist.

Edited November 16, 2008 by deon

[AndyBlueEyes]

In western society, due to our views on human rights, our legal systems are usually set up with the theory that the punishment should fit the crime. Certain other societies' judicial systems have been set up so that the punishment is designed to be harsher than the crime in an attempt to deter people from committing the crime.

Which system you prefer probably is a matter of personal opinion. Since I respect laws, I am in the camp of those that prefer extremely harsh penalties that will help deter people from breaking the law. As a simple example, grafitti is a fairly innocuous antisocial crime but causes tens of billions of dollars of property damage around the world. The penalty in most western countries for this crime is relatively benign thereby offering little fear as a deterrent. If western countries had a harsh punishment that does not fit the crime such as public caning or mandatory 20 years in jail, I believe that grafitti would quickly cease to be a major problem in western society.

The major weakness in either type of punishment system is unfortunately that neither will do much for reducing crimes of passion and drug or alcohol induced crimes. IMHO education and proper parental upbringing are probably the only answers that have even a slight chance of making a dent in those type of crimes.

[GuestHouse]

However when it comes to Drugs I love what Saudi Arabia dose. Drugs, their use or sale is dam near a death sentence, and not just that, its usually public and quite brutal. If you ever lived in a once thriving neighborhood only to watch the slow, dignity robbing death that drugs like crack and meth bring to it and the folks who live there, then you may understand. I wish America killed declassified marijuana as a drug and then killed drug dealers and users like they do in Saudi.

Well, it's nice to see someone who loves brutality for a change. Most of us here are boring "non brutal" types. A change is as good as a holiday...unless YOU are in control.

I don't agree with the death penalty, but putting aside his call for Saudi style executions in the US, Huey has made an observation here regarding the damage that drugs do to a society. The same may be said of a number of other forms of criminality. The topic is How to Deal with Criminals? the sub-topic is the definition of the term 'Scumbag'.

I think it is quite clear that the term is used to describe people who's behaviour is seen to threaten the kind of problems Huey here refers to. People who's own behaviour is within that definition will naturally be unhappy with the inclusion of what they regard as acceptable to themselves.

But we live in society and society has norms of behaviour - conversely society has behaviours which are outside those norms.

Scumbag is clearly a term that is used to identify such behaviour.

This may not be a bad thing, the pendulum swings, perhaps the addition of the term 'Scumbag' to the lexicon is an indication that people are expressing their disquiet over declining social behaviour.

[ourmaninbangers]

I spent my young adulthood during the late sixties when enlightened people like you were experimenting with new man made drugs. Friends and classmates of mine were convinced that these drugs were the greatest things that were ever discovered. They progressed from the "harmless" marijuana to try whatever became available. I frequently think about these adventurous people and wonder what they would have become if they had not turned into losers, homeless bums and finally died with nothing. Yes, I blame their early deaths on drugs. While I am certainly not an expert, I certainly have seen the damage that these drugs do.

You talk about the profits made from legal drugs. If the illegal drugs were to be legalized, would not the governments collect HUGE taxes from these drugs? Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps profits are secondary to protecting the majority of the people? Hopefully the people who make these laws are indeed thinking beyond the profits.

did they all die? every single one? what were they taking?( I am sorry to hear that)- In my circle nobody has either died, or messed up in anyway and some are in exellent health, most in fact.Some hold very good, high paying jobs.

( but of coures I know others who have come to bad times).I also am not so fond of the also called man made ones. I have seen damage too- I have also seen zero damage and alot of good times. I also see another type of damage.

A poor hill tribe farmer sentanced to life because he was ordered to grow something in order to feed his family.

A person who takes personaly life destroyed by these laws. I could go on. Is that good?

And people messing up on booze and cigerettes far more than the illegal drugs

Shall we blame the tobbaco and alchol people too.

Do we blame the drugs? did they jump up and go down your friends throats? No they made a choice, with proper policys perhaps they would of made a better one.

There is certain amout of people who will always mess up on something- sadly.

In that time they were doing something criminal- who could these people go to for advice and guidnace? where to check what they were taking?

This is why a middle road is required.

A drugs re-education and new policys that are specifc. You see, all the laws in the world will never stop people from doing this.So, why not amend the laws and educate people how to do things in a less than harmful way. They will do, always have and always will. Lets look at reality. Stop wasting so much of everything. We waste so much money on nonsense when we could be solving the problems

I think it would protect more with these policys

[ourmaninbangers]

Noted a few posters talking about drugs when they were younger and experimenting with all manner of things.

Realise that curiousity is what took man out of caves to where we are now (good or bad mai roo). Except taking drugs is not out of curiousity, more like an ego trip. "I want to be a rebel"/cool". "Bet people are impressed with me".

Seeing and experiencing the heartache and loss that drugs and it's effects can have on the individual and their family. Believe you need to have something missing in your head or life to take drugs.

So called soft drugs like cannabis has had devastating effects on young people I knew. From energetic, go getters who were assured a place at the good fortune table, lost it all. Became lethargic and could not care less about their world/future......

I drink, sometimes to excess and feel ill in the morning. That is me out of action for two days. Makes me angry with myself for being so stupid.

Drugs are for losers, you may not think so but they take thier toll over the years, out of your body, relationships and mind.

another one of those grossly over general statements with more holes than a swiss cheese that help us stay way behind.. where shall i start? I enjoy this, but also it makes me sad because you have a voice, a say, and yet it is so very wrong it makes me cringe ( hope that right word)

" drugs are for losers' legal ones too? so you are loser because you drink? So, in your completely flawed logic, everyone who takes drugs will ruin there life and is loser.

My god...and people who do not take are successful are they?

and by the way, what is the benchmark of success?

Is it " follow all those laws, deny yourself the possibilty of enjoying certain things that have been deemed to dangerous( but we know many will anyway because its need) to try pay all those tax, do not do this/ that, be a good little robot, retire at 60, enjoy your pension..

to me that is far far from success.

care to make a bet? can you not see how backwards this is? There can be no absolutes- please try and grasp this

wether you like or no- I tell you this, many people take many sorts of drugs, even heroin( which actually even may lengthen life) and are very happy, successful, heathy.

That is a fact. I know many like this.Many may not, and the way perhaps to help stop this is new policys.

mass/wrong generalisation will impeed this

[ourmaninbangers]

In western society, due to our views on human rights, our legal systems are usually set up with the theory that the punishment should fit the crime. Certain other societies' judicial systems have been set up so that the punishment is designed to be harsher than the crime in an attempt to deter people from committing the crime.

Which system you prefer probably is a matter of personal opinion. Since I respect laws, I am in the camp of those that prefer extremely harsh penalties that will help deter people from breaking the law. As a simple example, grafitti is a fairly innocuous antisocial crime but causes tens of billions of dollars of property damage around the world. The penalty in most western countries for this crime is relatively benign thereby offering little fear as a deterrent. If western countries had a harsh punishment that does not fit the crime such as public caning or mandatory 20 years in jail, I believe that grafitti would quickly cease to be a major problem in western society.

The major weakness in either type of punishment system is unfortunately that neither will do much for reducing crimes of passion and drug or alcohol induced crimes. IMHO education and proper parental upbringing are probably the only answers that have even a slight chance of making a dent in those type of crimes.

do you respect all laws? every single one. You either do or you do not. If you do not- which will be the case I am sure you can see the flaw in this.

There are too many counterproductive laws, that are unworkable, target the wrong person,backward.

Also, please send me any link that testifys to this billions of dollars in propety damage. I did not hink it was so bad. And so of it is rather nice.( like the things on the west bank)

[GuestHouse]

A poor hill tribe farmer sentanced to life because he was ordered to grow something in order to feed his family.

Right or wrong at this moment in time (and for the foreseeable future) the possession, trading, use and growing of certain substances is subject to very heavy penalties under the law. The poor farmer in the example given has presumably been found to be growing an illegal substance and hence sentenced to life in prison.

So here's a question.

What part does the user of these substances play in the farmer being thrown into prison?

It seems the farmer has no choice, he's been ordered or otherwise coerced into growing an illegal substance that finds a market because there is a demand.

The user, who creates the demand, knows full well that Right or wrong at this moment in time (and for the foreseeable future) the possession, trading, use and growing of certain substances is subject to very heavy penalties under the law.

The act of purchasing an illegal drug is therefore causing others to place themselves at risk from the heavy legal penalties.

Now the user, may wish that the law was not what the law is, but it remains that when purchasing an illegal drug they are by their choice placing people who may have no choice in peril.

It is also sinks the argument 'the use of illegal drugs is a victimless crime'.. Clearly not, people using illegal substances has very server consequences for many other people.

That ourmaninbangers has given us this example of consequences, but still advocates the use of illegal drugs is an indication that s/he doesn't give a shit about the consequences of her/his own actions on others.

Edited November 17, 2008 by GuestHouse

[MKAsok]

The user, who creates the demand, knows full well that Right or wrong at this moment in time (and for the foreseeable future) the possession, trading, use and growing of certain substances is subject to very heavy penalties under the law.

The act of purchasing an illegal drug is therefore causing others to place themselves at risk from the heavy legal penalties.

Now the user, may wish that the law was not what the law is, but it remains that when purchasing an illegal drug they are by their choice placing people who may have no choice in peril.

It is also sinks the argument 'the use of illegal drugs is a victimless crime'.. Clearly not, people using illegal substances has very server consequences for many other people.

That ourmaninbangers has given us this example of consequences, but still advocates the use of illegal drugs is an indication that s/he doesn't give a shit about the consequences of her/his own actions on others.

Tautological arguments and disingenuous uses of logic that don't say anything useful about how the laws relate to reality. Laws that cannot be enforced make a mockery of justice.

[GuestHouse]

Tautological arguments and disingenuous uses of logic that don't say anything useful about how the laws relate to reality. Laws that cannot be enforced make a mockery of justice.

It does not matter if a law is just or not, if by your own actions you cause someone else to break the law, you are playing a part in them being punished under the law.

[ourmaninbangers]

A poor hill tribe farmer sentanced to life because he was ordered to grow something in order to feed his family.

Right or wrong at this moment in time (and for the foreseeable future) the possession, trading, use and growing of certain substances is subject to very heavy penalties under the law. The poor farmer in the example given has presumably been found to be growing an illegal substance and hence sentenced to life in prison.

So here's a question.

What part does the user of these substances play in the farmer being thrown into prison?

It seems the farmer has no choice, he's been ordered or otherwise coerced into growing an illegal substance that finds a market because there is a demand.

The user, who creates the demand, knows full well that Right or wrong at this moment in time (and for the foreseeable future) the possession, trading, use and growing of certain substances is subject to very heavy penalties under the law.

The act of purchasing an illegal drug is therefore causing others to place themselves at risk from the heavy legal penalties.

Now the user, may wish that the law was not what the law is, but it remains that when purchasing an illegal drug they are by their choice placing people who may have no choice in peril.

It is also sinks the argument 'the use of illegal drugs is a victimless crime'.. Clearly not, people using illegal substances has very server consequences for many other people.

That ourmaninbangers has given us this example of consequences, but still advocates the use of illegal drugs is an indication that s/he doesn't give a shit about the consequences of her/his own actions on others.

aha... another slightly wrong comment... where shall I start, so many places....I am not english, but are people not reading correctly? probabaly my fault.

all I really say is to use freewill, do you know what that is?-

its the same thing that makes you wander into massage palour and pay a lady to give you more than a foot massage!

and to be aware of stupid laws, question and oppose them- thats how we stopped being such monsters to blacks, gays, etc, etc

did I ever say

"readers go out and do drugs?" did I? if I did it is not good, I blame my translator for not being here( joke) no, I mean to use one free will and to know ones subject

( so one will not say mistakes like " illegal as such a general when in some places it is not and perhaps we could look at them and learn something)

(The misquotes, the none answer to question people know they cannot answer because it makes them look silly and the vaugenes on TV is amazing)

And I do give 'shit" ( how much have you done for people in jail/ prisoners rights? drug awarness? victim support?anti salevery/human traiffilking? child pornography, want me to continue?

I see how stupid these laws are, hence my passion.I regret that the laws have made this a possible consquence, but will I allow them to change my freewill?

And by the way, sorry to have to inform you- it is NOT illegal to use drugs in some enlighten countrys, or to grow them.Not everywhere of course. A little more specific please.

The country that have these laws have drastcly reduced alot of crime associated with them. Saved alot of money,put it where needed.

The overburdened UK police force is now having trouble because it has its hands tied by burocracy that says it has to enforce stupid laws and thanks to this new politcal correctness thats ties the hands and prebents plocing the mst vital areas.

And look at this lets obey the laws diatribe,, do you stop to think how much misery you cause , perpetuate each time you pay a poor young, disseducated,impoverished lady for sex?

You are fueling a horrible trade.Putting money right in the hands of mob...

Okay, sorry everyone...thats illegal, but lets just put that aside, because you want to relive your youth and it does not suit either us or this moral govenrment that may lock us up if we smoke a joint, but not if we rape one of it daughters because the big boys profit from it and without the country would hardly be on the map.

You want us to follow such moral gundance do you?. Respect it. What is yourview point on this? have you heard of consistancy ( hope I spelt it right) without the laws lose respect

We run around moaning about poor old joe smoking a sliff and ignore the crys of a poor woman forced into seeling herself because she has no choice, but it suits us, and the government which can offer her no better.

Why are'nt the cops hanging around outside arresting those tragic looking punters I see sometimes coming out?

So, we try and enforce one- and ignore another. Real progress there.Real leadership

hence I try to enter a logical way forward. Can you suggest any way forward instead of making vague, flawed comments, can we work on the problem at all

let me try to make it easy for you

1-how would you deal with a person who smokes personaly in his own home? and , just out of interest- how about a man caugfht paying alady for sex?

2- do you think that all laws are good and should be obeyed without question?

3- do you think the popular system of drug enforced ment works ( to do with soft drugs)

4- are all drugs " bad" are the sers al " bad" will it all lead to ruin?

Some of what you say does make some sense ,but please look at whole picture.

The victim is because of a law.The law made the victim in the case you mention.And as I had to show you, in some place you arguement is flawed because there would be any " victim.

Would you rather blame me/us because I went and bought something, or the corrupt cop, legal system that enforces such stupidty when it suits them, and ignores other when it does't?

no, by and large one should foloow the laws, but they have to be improved upon, consistant, and fair- and people should wake up and smell the coffee and learn the truth about drugs. That is the middle path that we need. Everything else has failed, and the reason for that is clear.

[GuestHouse]

Having given us an example of how a poor farmer suffers under the law as a result of being forced for coerced into growing drugs to supply the market generated by drug users. And being asked what part the Drug user plays in the farmer's downfall, ourmaninbangkok goes off on a long rant which dodges the issue completely.

I see how stupid these laws are, hence my passion.I regret that the laws have made this a possible consquence, but will I allow them to change my freewill?

Saying one must obey the law because they are in someones country( espically a country which is basicly a defacto western colony and inacted drugs not because it choose to, but was told to do is pointless,silly- that will never happen.If it did we would all stil be in the dark ages.

Yes we know you have freewill and we know that you will practice your freewill despite the consequences, we know too that you will disregard laws that impact your choices regardless of the impact of your choices on others.

You have given us some examples of other choices people make that result in the abuse of helpless people - I really see no difference between your own arguments and they arguments those abusers might make.

You have provided us with a very good example of someone who fits the term under discussion.