2 Legal Questions

[JackFord]

I have a couple of questions for the experts here on Thaivisa.com before I go further into my plans.

I'm single with a long term GF and have been working in Thailand with a Work Permit for about 10 years now and its about time I got out of rented property.

1) To buy a condo, all the money has been earned here in Thailand, whats the deal about 'having' to bring the money from outside of Thailand?

2) To buy a house, needless to say it would have to be in the GFs name, what type of legal formalities can be drawn up if we parted company, would it possible to have a legal agreement that the house/proceeds of, be split 50/50?

Thanks for any advice given here before I go to a lawyer.

[Svenn]

I have a couple of questions for the experts here on Thaivisa.com before I go further into my plans.

I'm single with a long term GF and have been working in Thailand with a Work Permit for about 10 years now and its about time I got out of rented property.

1) To buy a condo, all the money has been earned here in Thailand, whats the deal about 'having' to bring the money from outside of Thailand?

2) To buy a house, needless to say it would have to be in the GFs name, what type of legal formalities can be drawn up if we parted company, would it possible to have a legal agreement that the house/proceeds of, be split 50/50?

Thanks for any advice given here before I go to a lawyer.

2.) 'usufruct': gives u right to inhabit land and prohibits her from selling without your consent. not sure if the police have ever enforced one or not, but they exist and lawyers make them. wish i knew more

[Ta22]

Stay on rentlal .

, look at your ages ,

people buy hoouse so there can give it to theie child

if you buy a 2 million house .

you can rental a 8000 baht house for 20 years ,

if you buying a 4 million baht house you can rent a 12,000 baht house for 27.7 years

is not worth to buy house in thailand unles syou got extra money to speard .

.

Plus if it bangkok it going to flood in maybe 5-10 years time .

-

i rent 3 house in thailand . sukothai , chiangmai , and bangkok -

so my advice is why worry and put yourself under with a big cash out flow .

[allane]

As a foreigner,you have the right to leave Thailand, if you don't like the laws here. All of the other rights rest with her.

Re 1: Check this link: www.dol.go.th, then find "Thailand" and "Condominium Act". Condominium Act (No.3) B.E. 2542 (1999), Section 5 (5) would appear to provide that you can use money which you already have in Thailand, provided that you have a non-resident or foreign currency account.

Re 2: Agreements to sidestep the law are null and void. It is no different than if I sign a contract with someone to kill you. Similarly, people can not sign their constitutional rights away, even if they want to, and any document where they purport to do so can be rescinded by them at any time, or declared null and void by the courts.

[geriatrickid]

If you are going to put the house in her name, what's the worry with the money coming out of the country? Consider a demand loan secured by the dwelling. In any case, the 1st stop is a good real estate lawyer with knowledge of real estate law and the protection of the foreign stakeholder.

In any case, I's sugegst you wait a year or so. If what appears to be unraveling in BKK combined with the a recession takes root, real estate prices should adjust downwards.

[Svenn]

Re 2: Agreements to sidestep the law are null and void. It is no different than if I sign a contract with someone to kill you. Similarly, people can not sign their constitutional rights away, even if they want to, and any document where they purport to do so can be rescinded by them at any time, or declared null and void by the courts.

I'm sure usufructs are covered elsewhere, but I don't think they're really "sidesteps" -he's just getting an interest in the property, he's not owning it in fee simple absolute, which I think is all the thai parliament wanted to prevent. Find out if police have ever enforced a usufruct, then we'll know

Edited November 24, 2008 by Svenn

[Tagaa]

First thing is to ignore the above post by allane.

Re: Condo...The money can come from outside LOS, it does not have to be earned here. You can own a condo in your own name, as you only "own" the space, you do not own the land.

Re: Usufruct...A usufruct is legal in LOS. It can be found in the Thai Civil Code. It is a license (not a lease) from the owner of the land (your TGF) to you. We purchased our land (in her name) and then IMMEDIATELY after that, my attorney (Sebastian at Issan Lawyers- a forum sponsor) filed the usufruct. My name as Usufructor, appears directly under hers on the back side of the Title Deed. You should not be married when this agreement is signed as it is a CONTRACT. Contracts between a husband and wife are voidable. Contracts between 2 individuals are not, unless there is some breach of the agreement.

The usufruct is better than a lease (30 years max plus extensions, if any) in that it can be for ANY specified period of time, ie: your lifetime. No monthly or yearly payments are required. If you get married (after signing the agreement of course) & divorced, she can not evict you. If your TGF dies, you can continue to live there until you die. Ownership of the land would pass to her heirs, but they can do nothing with the land (ie: borrow money or sell) until you die. They may try to borrow against it, but what bank would loan someone money when they, the bank, can not sell the collateral until the usufructor dies.

If you want to sell, you can, as long as you & your TGF agree. Example, If you sell for 1 million BT, you release the usufruct for say, 900,000BT & she sells the property & pockets 100,000 or whatever you mutually agree upon. If one party wants to sell & the other does not, the usufruct remains inforce until your death (hopefully, not before your time).

Go to Issan Lawyers website for much more detailed information. Sebastian is Canadian & has a Thai partner that will explain every paragraph (written in Thai & English) to your TGF).

As an aside, if she won't sign the agreement, don't buy the land...move on.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Tagaa

[Tagaa]

Sorry for two posts, but my time to edit has expired.

For the STRAIGHT SCOOP on usufructs, go to:

Thai Civil & Commercial Code,

Book IV, Property

TITLE VII, USUFRUCT, Sections 1417 to 1428.

This should stop the journey down the trail of ignorance & misinformation.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Tagaa

[Beacher]

If you are going to put the house in her name, what's the worry with the money coming out of the country? Consider a demand loan secured by the dwelling. In any case, the 1st stop is a good real estate lawyer with knowledge of real estate law and the protection of the foreign stakeholder.

In any case, I's sugegst you wait a year or so. If what appears to be unraveling in BKK combined with the a recession takes root, real estate prices should adjust downwards.

Is this true? when I first came to live in Thailand in 2000, I spent a lot of time around the Rayong/Ban Phe area and was surprised at the high nimber of vacant and deteriorating houses and shop houses. When I asked people about these derilect buildings, I was told they were victims of the 1997 currency collapse and that the owners/banks weren't lowering the prices in hopes of attracting buyers. I have since heard more than once that Thais generally don't operate using the basic Western business logic of supply and demand, so will we really see a downward adjustment?

[sassienie]

If you purchase a property/land in your Thai girl friend’s name, than in fact you are presenting it to her as a gift.

Thai law does not recognise long-term g/f, b/f relationships as common law husband and wife.

Also if in the event your girlfriend dies, her loving caring family will soon be on the scene in readiness to reprocess the property as your girlfriend’s next of kin. That includes any vehicles you have not registered in your name.

You can ask your lawyer to create a power of attorney or a lease. This means that although it may stop anyone selling the property without your consent, this would end with the real estate becoming stagnant and no one being able to sell without legal proceedings and the consent of a judge. This process can take 2 years or more and of course you will need to provide receipts as proof that it was your money used for the purchase of the real estate. Thai law states that a Farang can only own real estate under certain terms and conditions, therefore you still may not have any claims or rights to the property against your girl friend.

If you married your present girlfriend, this does give you more clout under Thai law. This means that everything owned between you is 50/50.

Again a court order would need to be acquired so as to decide, who owns what, and how everything is going to be split.

My advice is, that purchasing real estate under a Thai name, unless that person is a spouse, is not a good idea.

As for Condominiums, remember that these are all leasehold. Your tenancy terms and conditions are impose by a lease which is enforced by a management company who are the freeholders or acting for the freeholders. You will be required to pay annual service charges and lump sums for any works, maintenance, security and repairs to the communal areas.

[soundman]

Moved to Real Estate forum.

[JackFord]

I appreciate the feedback from everybody so far.

[chiangmaibruce]

If you married your present girlfriend, this does give you more clout under Thai law. This means that everything owned between you is 50/50.

Just to clarify that ... "not everything" is owned 50/50, only those things deemed to be marital property. Many of the Thai law firm web sites have articles that include an explanation of this difference. Try isaanlawyers web site for a start

My advice is, that purchasing real estate under a Thai name, unless that person is a spouse, is not a good idea.

In fact according to a paper in the web site of samuiforsale.com (another law firm) the above strategy is actually illegal and both parties can be prosecuted

[allane]

First thing is to ignore the above post by allane.

Re: Condo...The money can come from outside LOS, it does not have to be earned here. You can own a condo in your own name, as you only "own" the space, you do not own the land.

I said that you CAN use money earned in Thailand, I did not say that you can not bring money from outside.

With regard to this question of usufructs, let me get this straight: You are going to give her money to buy a house, which of course will be registered in her name. She will give you a piece of paper, which will have to be interpreted by a Thai judge at some point in the future, after she has declared that the marriage or relationship is over, that she never wants to see you again, and certainly has no desire to sell the property, just so you can get your share of the proceeds ?

I might buy a dog on that basis, but only if it was a mixed breed !