Can't Sleep

[jimmym40]

I cannot get to sleep no matter how tired I am. For years now, taking Ambien, Ambien CR and Tamazapam 5 times a week. And even then they don't put me to sleep.

I finally realized it IS affecting my health. I'm tired all day long.

I know Ram and Suan Doc both have sleep clinics.

Question is: Has anyone had a sleep study done at either of these two hospitals?

What was the benefit - if any?

Approximate cost?

Any other info/advice will be well taken.

Thanks.

[Blinky Bill]

Don't worry, go to bed, forget about it.

Sweet dreams.

[femi fan]

I've learnt a lot about such things recently. I lost my ability to fall asleep quickly and deeply for a good night's sleep a while back. I was also getting back problems and i think this caused the sleep problem, all tossing and turning.

I tried all sorts of places to get a remedy. Nothing worked.

It turns out that as soon as i quit booze for two weeks (along with certain foods) the back problems went, and my sleep returned.

I don't think it was the booze per se, and in fact i now drink again, albeit in far reduced quantities, but rather the work i was putting my liver through. My conclusion is, look after your liver, and it will look after your body. Now, pills also put strain on the liver. So, i don't know what booze you go through, but what worked for me could work for you:

balance out an overacidic constitution, stop putting the liver through too much work, and don't succumb to things like worry and the like.

Incidentally, white sugar and white flour are enemies of your liver and body in general. So is too much meat and dairy produce. I feel whatever you do, the answers lie in the foods and drinks you take in.

[Drew Aitch]

Hi jimmym40

Good luck with finding a solution to your sleeping disorder.

It’s no fun being deprived of sleep or 'quality sleep', and it's something that's plagued me for a few years now. It’s never a good idea to take sleeping advice from folks who have no trouble with sleeping! They really don't understand no matter how well meaning they may be.

I've been told to wear myself out, and I'll sleep like a baby. I'm walking up the Doi 5 times a week, and cycling at speed everywhere I go around town. Alas, being tired has nothing to do with sleeplessness for those with a genuine disorder. Heck, I'm so tired sometimes, yet when I go to bed I lay there for hours waiting to nod off.

Others might say that so long as you have a clear conscience you'll sleep ok too. Poppycock says I.

Losing sleep, for whatever reason, affects the way we feel and function during those conscious hours of day, and although lack of sleep never killed anyone, it can certainly send you nuts! So debilitating is staying awake when you really want to kip, that it's even used as a form of tort.ure!

Anyway, let the forum know how you get on.

femi fan, that's an interesting post and I'm sure each case of insomnia is different. I neither drink nor smoke, and get plenty of regular exercise, so it won't be relevant to my particular case, but could be useful for others reading this.

Cheers

Aitch

[realthaideal]

There are many reasons for sleep disorders and most ppl with them go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed for years. It's too bad. I wish you luck.

For non-medical help, or in supplement to what you will do in the future, there is alot to be said about learning to meditate or breathe properly. Following the breath and doing counting and holding exercises is an incredibly effective way to calm the mind and induce sleep. It takes perseverence, but can work. Another thing to look into is some New Age music. It's not cool stuff, but can help quiet the mind and even induce the proper brain wave state. I found something on the internet called 'Bain Sync' with a continuous track called 'Deep Sleep' on it. I swear it mimics the sound of deep sleep and knocks me right out. I sleep like a log. My gf oftentimes has restlessness or trouble getting to sleep. These kinds of things turned on in the background put her right out as well. Try a torrent site, and of course only download free legal downloads!

Oh yeah, last thing. I already speak my fair share of Thai, but laying down in bed with a book on Thai language is another surefire way to put me out in about 10 mins.

[orang37]

For years now, taking Ambien, Ambien CR and Tamazapam 5 times a week. And even then they don't put me to sleep

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jimmym40,

Curious : is Ambien available by prescription in Chiang Mai ?

I have not used a sleep clinic, so can't comment on that. What I can say is that regular years of use any sleep-inducing, hypnotic, sedative, anti-anxiety drug, etc. (such as Paxil, Valium, Xanax, Ambien) will definitely lead to withdrawal symptoms when you discontinue. The current clinical wisdom is that withdrawal from these drugs should take place slowly, not quickly, and expert medical advice can, perhaps, steer you to some pharmacological assistance in making the transition.

People vary greatly in response to these drugs : for myself Valium does nothing, where .5mg of Xanax definitely has an effect, and 1 mg. of Xanax is a sure-fire sleep trigger.

imho, you do need get expert medical advice on making the transition. Of the drugs I mentioned : Paxil withdrawal is a much more serious thing, and can lead to "psychotic" episodes.

In general, as we age, most people around their sixties report less quality sleep, more difficulty going to sleep, more interrupted sleep, etc.

I speak from experience about Xanax : I used it regularly for sleep six months or so last year while getting radiation and chemo for cancer; trying to give it up brought on disturbed sleep, eye-fatigue, vascular head-aches, irritability, trouble concentrating, etc.

What helps me sleep now is :

0. not watching CNN for three hours before bed-time.

1. 20-30 minute bicycle ride two hours before bed-time where I get my heart at a low-medium level of cardiovascular stimulation (heart beat up about 120-125 in my case). followed by stretching on return home and (what else ?) a cup of hot soy milk laced with star anise and palm-tree sugar.

2. fifteen minutes of the yoga "complete breath"

Yoga Complete Breath

followed by some meditation.

3. a hot shower followed by getting into bed with a "deep" technical book, or book of history with "deep" footnotes : this type of reading seems to induce sleep best for me

4. if I work out at the gym to a point of real exhaustion and then follow that by a sauna, that seems to bring on the best sleep of all.

Sweet Dreams, ~o:37;

[wolvesfc]

try a memory foam matress best nights sleep i have ever had. also a few drops of lavender oil on your pillow may help

[track61]

I don't know about the clinics you mention. I know there is an excellent one at Bumrungrad in BKK. I didn't have a problem going to sleep but staying asleep. For years I averaged around 3-4 hrs sleep a night. It didn't bother me until I got into my 50's and then my daufghter-in-law convinced me to have a sleep study done in the US and it has changed my life. The study showed all kinds of stuff, mainly I had severe sleep apnea, ie, I stopped breathing 40-50 times an hour. Make it short, I followed the recommendations, now sleep around 7hrs/night and feel better than I did 10 years ago.

I would say get the study done no matter price. The minimum benefit would be more knowledge regarding your situation. PM me if you want more info about the Bumrungrad clinic.

[femi fan]

femi fan, that's an interesting post and I'm sure each case of insomnia is different. I neither drink nor smoke, and get plenty of regular exercise, so it won't be relevant to my particular case, but could be useful for others reading this.

Cheers

Aitch

There's more though, i was tired when i wrote that last night...!!

The key thing i'm talking about is the liver, and then the digestion system. Foods, such as white sugar and anything that uses it as an ingredient, white flour, and any other denatured foods, processed foods, carbonated soft drinks, put a high stress on the liver and digestion system. With the liver working hard, all kinds of niggling to serious health issues manifest themselves. Interestingly a short-temper, easy to anger, irritability, depression, impatience are mental signs that the liver is overworked.

Then there's the how and when of eating. Recommendations vary, but it seems we need at least two or three hours after our last food before going to bed. We should do most of the digesting in our mouths, by chewing well and getting the saliva production going. We should never overeat. We should concentrate on eating, not watching the tv at the same time.

These are some of the things i've been learning about recently, all because i was fed up with my back problems (x-rays indicated no problem) and my poor sleep quality. It makes perfect sense to me now (why not before?!!) that we are what we eat and drink. Nutrition is all. After all my visits to doctors and specialists and physiotherapists, i ended up curing myself with a bit of research on foods and drinking habits!

[bungalowbill]

Excercise daily and try Melatonin, it's a drug-free natural sleep aid, you can buy the pills at the pharmacy. Also I agree with most all of the other advice, such as what you eat..and be very careful with drugs such as s xanax. good luck

[bungalowbill]

Have two cups of kava, followed by a valarian root and a melatonin. You will be out, guaranteed. And all are non addictive.

Vibe, Is Kava available in Chiang Mai?

[jimmym40]

Thanks for all the replies/advice. I'll be checking at Ram this week hopefully and get started setting up a study. I can't take these sleepless nights any longer...

[ollylama]

i had insomnia my whole life until i discovered meditation years ago. i admit that i have been lucky with it - many people i know have derived no benefit from it and find it very frustrating. i also admit that i sometimes take xanax just because i like being able to "turn off" artificially. i'm sorry that that stuff like that doesn't work for you.

i no longer meditate regularly, but when i find my mind wandering as i lie in bed i'm now able to forcibly stop myself from thinking. i know that most vipassana meditators say that you can't "force" it, but i disagree. for me, learning to control my overactive mind was the principal benefit i derived from meditation practice. the "spiritual" aspect didn't appeal to me much. anyway, it might work for you. give it a try.

[Fynn]

Good luck with the clinic.

If it fails to work for you. I can do a set of Meditative - Energy relaxation sessions for you.

I'm taking a break at the mo, my last client just flew back to the UK after a 6 week stay and I am taking some time to catch up on some DIY at home. But once that is finished. If you're still not resting and getting in to REM sleep and you wish to try to learn some techniques then PM me.

Peace.

[ollylama]

kava also varies a lot in potency. it comes in pill and tincture form but i found the tincture more effective. although it really depended on where you got it from. my hunch, though, is that if pharmaceuticals don't work for you, kava, valerian and melatonin won't either. but it's worth a try.

[mbincm]

I cannot get to sleep no matter how tired I am. For years now, taking Ambien, Ambien CR and Tamazapam 5 times a week. And even then they don't put me to sleep.

I finally realized it IS affecting my health. I'm tired all day long.

I know Ram and Suan Doc both have sleep clinics.

Question is: Has anyone had a sleep study done at either of these two hospitals?

What was the benefit - if any?

Approximate cost?

i am not a doctor - so i cannot give any medical advise - however i had the same problem - not being able to sleep - so i started taking Melatonin - it is a natural herb basis - or i think it is - anyway it is non addictive - maybe it can work for you. also try taking up reading a book - then you read until you are really tired - then you sleep. worked for me........

Any other info/advice will be well taken.

Thanks.

[zorro1]

two words SLEEP APNEA if you have this it will kill in the end not to mention a zillion disorders number 1 being stroke, diabetes, you name it. Get a sleep study done asap. sleeping tabs only make sleep apnea worse. Google the above

[john b good]

I cannot get to sleep no matter how tired I am. For years now, taking Ambien, Ambien CR and Tamazapam 5 times a week. And even then they don't put me to sleep.

I finally realized it IS affecting my health. I'm tired all day long.

I know Ram and Suan Doc both have sleep clinics.

Question is: Has anyone had a sleep study done at either of these two hospitals?

What was the benefit - if any?

Approximate cost?

Any other info/advice will be well taken.

Thanks.

As a follow up has anyone had a "sleep study done" at either Ram or Suan Dok. I don't believe that I have seen any response in the affirmative.

[Jungian]

A sleep study consists of the following:

An EEG or electroencephalogram which is a major part of a sleep study. It measures and records four forms of brain wave activity: alpha, beta, delta and theta waves. Alpha waves are usually found during relaxed wakefulness, particularly when your eyes are closed. Theta waves are seen during the lighter sleep stages 1 and 2, while delta waves occur chiefly in deep sleep, the so-called "slow wave sleep" found in sleep stages 3 and 4.

An EMG or electromyogram which records muscle activity like face twitches, teeth grinding, and leg movements. It will also help in determining the presence of REM (rapid eye movement)stage sleep. The amount and duration of these activities provides the doctor important information about your sleep.

An EOG or electro-oculogram, which records eye movements. These movements are important in determining the different sleep stages, particularly REM stage sleep.

An EKG or electrocardiogram, which records heart activities, such as rate and rhythm.

A Nasal Airflow Sensor: which records breath temperature, airflow, apnea and hypopnea events. This is the part most people don't like because a sensor is placed near your nose and mouth.

Those are the basics the idea is to find out why or what is waking you which is the beginning of diagnosing your problem. The true benefit is that you don't waste your time and money on drugs that don't work instead the study is designed to find the problem rather than treating the symptom.

[samuibeachcomber]

Have two cups of kava, followed by a valarian root and a melatonin. You will be out, guaranteed. And all are non addictive.

what is kava?and in what form and where can you buy melatonin,what is it?

[hermespan]

Have two cups of kava, followed by a valarian root and a melatonin. You will be out, guaranteed. And all are non addictive.

Yes, maybe, no. Kava 'cured' my insomnia. Valerian made me feel weird, but it helped. Melatonin affected my short-term memory when I used it for weeks on end. In fact, one time I got angry at a waitress for not returning my change (she had). Very bad form in Thailand and made me look like a liar, which in a sense I was. Perhaps melatonin is good to use ocassionally. I don't know. My buddy's sister reported the same problem with melatonin. Maybe it is something uniques to some people's brains. Caution.

[PeaceBlondie]

Jimmy, you asked for reports of the two local sleep clinics. Nobody knew. So you went to RAM, right? How was it?

[jimmym40]

I apologize to all and thank you for all your enlightening posts. I can't believe it's been so long that I asked about these sleep studies. I tried to lick my problem alone. Tried almost everything. I'm going to have the study done at RAM in the next two weeks. Don't know how the time passed (couple trips to US, moving within Chiang Mai) and just my procrastination. I hit my low point a few weeks ago.

I'll definately post upon the completion of the study.

Cheers.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jimmym40,

Good luck with your sleep study !

fyi: Suan Prung Hospital (psychiatric) on the southern moat boundary road, Chang Lo, just west of where Talat Thipanet intersects does prescribe Zolpidem (typical trade name: "Ambien").

They also have facilities for doing a sleep test: you might check them out, and compare costs there with costs at CM Ram.

We go there (for sleep medication: trying Zolpidem now with mixed results), and we are impressed by the excellent service, the competency of the English-speaking psychiatrists on intake duty, and the whole place.

Re-reading this thread has made us wonder where in Chiang Mai you might get quality kava: never tried that one.

One thing we've found is: eating oatmeal at night seems tranquilizing, but don't know if that's just our personal chemistry ... or if there is something soporific about oatmeal.

best, ~o:37;

p.s. Khun Vibe, are you still using kava ?

Edited December 12, 2010 by orang37

[jimmym40]

Orange37,

Thanks for the info on that hospital. It was mentioned to me by Dr. Morgan (her clinic on Hang Dong Rd, almost across from TESCO). She didn't think they had a sleep study capability. AMBIEN: i'm taking it on average 4 days a week, just because I had to get sleep somehow. I tried a few times to go cold turkey and not take it. The best I could do was for 5 nights, I was a zombie after that. I've really been suffering and it's really affected my overall health.

I was able to stock up on the ambien because I went back to the states once, sometimes twice a year and always able to get scripts for refills. I've done much reasearch and reading on the side effects and made up my mind i have to stop it. BUT, after taking ambien, I'm alive the next day and very difficult to not take it.

Maybe I do need a physchiatrist I'm definately going to do something soon.

[jsflynn603]

I'll echo zorro1. From what I have seen sleep apnea/hpyopnea is often a cause for sleep disorders.

If you have a partner ask do you sound like a Deisel Truck with a bad engine? Do you wake up gasping? (Note: You may do this and have no awareness at all)

Do your own sleep study for apnea/hypopnea. Set a tape recorder as slow as possible and try to sleep for few hours and then listen. If the above rings true you'll need a workup as to "why" and often a positive pressure mask (sounds nasty) will cure it right away.

About half the apnea/hypopnea clients that have gone to positive pressure masks love them (after a week of getting used to them). About 25% don't like them bus admit that they work. And about 25% absolutely hate them.

I would guess apnea/hypopnea as a high probability reason, but it is just a guess.

By the way, if you sleep 4 hours or more, and have no negative symptoms (falling asleep during the day, knocking over displays at markets) you are considered normal. Most sleep clinics will not even work up a person unless they sleep less than 4 hours.

[jimmym40]

Thanks 603 for the tip on the recorder. Unfortunately, I've already went that route a couple times. Doesn' t seem that I have sleep apnea. Once asleep, I'm okay.

My PROBLEM is FALLING to sleep. I just lie awake all night long. Luckily I am getting REST, but no sleep.

I can't seem to turn my mind OFF. For instance. At night watching TV and I hear a jingle, like the TURKISH airline advertisement. I take that to bed with me and sing it all night long. My mind is always racing - about something.

Anyone else have this problem?

[Ulysses G.]

I did a sleep study at SriPat, but my problem was that I was falling asleep all of the time without wanting to.

The sleep study was fine, but you should be able to speak Thai fairly well or bring a translator to spend the night.

The only problem that I had with SriPat is it takes many hours waiting to see the doctors to set the thing up, but my problem is solved because of the results and recommendations from the sleep study.

[Ta22]

go get a good body massage . a nice spa and then start doing yoga . and bliss walk .

teach your body to be tired and learn slowly how to sleep again .

not sleeping is addictive .

people do not sleep for many reason ..from chasing a forum reply

to watching TV wanting to know is NExt .

to worrying idea of the world will end of some illness will kill you .

or just simply an addiction of not sleeping .

good luck

[cmsally]

Thanks 603 for the tip on the recorder. Unfortunately, I've already went that route a couple times. Doesn' t seem that I have sleep apnea. Once asleep, I'm okay.

My PROBLEM is FALLING to sleep. I just lie awake all night long. Luckily I am getting REST, but no sleep.

I can't seem to turn my mind OFF. For instance. At night watching TV and I hear a jingle, like the TURKISH airline advertisement. I take that to bed with me and sing it all night long. My mind is always racing - about something.

Anyone else have this problem?

I would recommend meditation in that case. Especially Vipassana meditation that makes you acknowledge things and then let them go. I have no problems sleeping but am someone who generally needs not much. I have a really active mind and sometimes need some meditation to bring me down a bit. With a vwery active mind your centre of gravity goes up to your head and it really needs to be further down near your stomach.

Bit difficult to explain though. Yoga or Tai Chi would help too, that calms the mind down.