How Do You Feel In Thailand Today?

[sokal]

JR Texas,

I have no doubt in the story that you are a victim. However, I think Jai Dee means charity, business mean proper legal dealing and, of course, I think cheating is an evil form of Jai Dum.

Thanks.........wish I could tell you the entire story.........unbelievable.........what people are capable of doing is sometimes unbelievable to me. You act out of kindness and generosity........helping another human being who is in serious trouble.........and you are repaid with theft, lies, etc. I just can't get my mind into that type of mindset. But I think Thais can easily. There is something terribly wrong with the education system in this country. It has failed to instill the basic beliefs that make "civilization" function. If we all act like animals.......the game is over.

The poorer you are, the easier it is to justify theft

[OxfordWill]

JR the Thai system works to support "civilisation" the problem is, as a non Thai, you are not covered by the insurance policies that exist within it. Either become more Thai so force yourself into the "web" or dont play in the same sandbox.

[caf]

JR the Thai system works to support "civilisation" the problem is, as a non Thai, you are not covered by the insurance policies that exist within it. Either become more Thai so force yourself into the "web" or dont play in the same sandbox.

Good advice. Try to understand the Thai way of thinking. That is not to say I agree with it !

[JR Texas]

JR the Thai system works to support "civilisation" the problem is, as a non Thai, you are not covered by the insurance policies that exist within it. Either become more Thai so force yourself into the "web" or dont play in the same sandbox.

My point is that the system is not working precisely because of corruption--lies, theft, etc. Civilization--any civilization--must have a moral/legal base. When that moral/legal base breaks down, as it has done in Thailand, civilization breaks down. We are seeing this happen daily..........not only foreigners are being hurt.......Thais are being hurt.

In the example I gave.......had my relative done the right thing, several people would be happy now, he would have ended up with more, not less, money along with a long term commitment that would have kept a salary going in his direction.

Now, he wins in the short term, but seen from a long term perspective, he lost a huge amount of money and the only opportunity any decent person will ever give him. Thais think in the short term.......no real concept of the long term consequences of their actions. And now there does not seem to be any distinction between right and wrong behavior.

That is a perfect recipe for a breakdown of a society..........history has lots of example of this. Civilization demands a moral/legal base to function.

[daoyai]

I agree with the core of JRs statements but I disagree with the sweeping generalizations on Thai character. I think many people here are as fed up with the corruption and dishonesty as you (we) are. Anyone trying to conduct a proper business or live a decent life knows there are many problems to overcome. After being ripped off or victemized it is easy to only see the negative. This is a transitional time for Thai culture, govt. and society in general.

[oldsparrow]

JR,

I agree with another poster that generalisation s not the practical lesson at present. becasue you will see no different in everything or everybody then you can't consider the best or possible way to go around and finally no choice in any lifestyle in TL.

Nothing big is going down, it has been like this for a thousand years. It's just yourself that suffer in your situation. This is the focus in need.

You see huge gap in Thai people's lives. Huge gap are also their mind, perception of live, concern for the living and how to make the living.

May be you offer casual Jai Dee because it was your in law and be more on guard when it's business dealing. This's why the Thais have get married with people of the similar background, economic and social status. To you it may sound undemocratic but it's is practical safety measure around here.

[aussiejosh]

As some one who has lived here since 13, so my adult life. I love it, I love Thailand, I love the people and the culture, but it is a love you love to hate at the same time. I have 0 respect for the laws or their enforcers here as they seem like a pathetic joke which can be circumvented with monetary rewards for the officials involved.

The people I love, yet have 0 respect for as well. I mean how many times will you say a week "this is Thailand" or "that is Thailand" or ''tit''...

How people can live so contently in a system so obviously flawed and disturbingly fuc_ked up, then have the gaul to pronounce they have some forms of national pride and dignity. The moderately wealthy think their demi gods free to do what they want which for the most part they are exactly right, and the poor seem mislead and tricked into a perpetual state of comatose in regards to reacting to obvious and gross injustices. Who can tell me it is fair that you drive around in your Mercedes s200, or your BM 318i(two of the most common but popular cars with the wanna be hi-so) and look out the window to see your 'beloved countrymen' (in most cases children) and then be annoyed that this person; who is lucky to spend what you spend in a day in their entire lives, is bothering you for a few baht.

But hey I am a hypocrite, I never even acknowledge the people outside my car window at the lights, they'll go away soon enough. I spend my weekends spending stupid amounts of money driving around drinking with friends island hoping and cruising around Thailand's Islands every weekend. It's why I am here.

But you asked me what I think of Thailand, its like a playground for anyone with a bit of $... and hel_l the police are the ones going around picking up the little bits of $ we are giving them, like dogs... or some sort of bottom feeding creature.

But don't get me wrong, I love Thailand.

How about Goldman Sachs getting a 100 billion dollars from the tax payer, then another 100 billion from AIG that was bailed out by the government just to have Goldman pay out 6 billion dollars to 500 people. Open your eyes, its not different anywhere else.

I didn't say it didn't exist elsewhere, open your eyes. I am just telling you how it is here, I didn't even mention any other countries. Was the opinion about other countries? Was the OP about any other countries? who said I liked any other any more, or I thought this was the most fked up? Did I say they were more ignorant of the flaws in their system than someone in the US? No, why can't I simply have discontent for everything?

The world isn't "right", never will be "right" and never was meant to be "right".... <deleted> is "right" anyway? Just a stupid Idea we have invented; yet prevent ourselves from reaching.

Get off your buffalo and lead your pro Thailand charge elsewhere. Woopty for you, you didn't even read what I wrote. I have lived in other places too, Australia the most and trust me I don't like the laws the systems or the people there much either. I like Thailand a lot more obviously... Maybe its because I can drive at 180km+ here...

[oldsparrow]

Many Thais' motto: When you lend money without contract it's a charity grant, do it as much as you can afford to lose it.

[astral]

I don't know about others, but I feel with my hands.

[caf]

JR the Thai system works to support "civilisation" the problem is, as a non Thai, you are not covered by the insurance policies that exist within it. Either become more Thai so force yourself into the "web" or dont play in the same sandbox.

My point is that the system is not working precisely because of corruption--lies, theft, etc. Civilization--any civilization--must have a moral/legal base. When that moral/legal base breaks down, as it has done in Thailand, civilization breaks down. We are seeing this happen daily..........not only foreigners are being hurt.......Thais are being hurt.

In the example I gave.......had my relative done the right thing, several people would be happy now, he would have ended up with more, not less, money along with a long term commitment that would have kept a salary going in his direction.

Now, he wins in the short term, but seen from a long term perspective, he lost a huge amount of money and the only opportunity any decent person will ever give him. Thais think in the short term.......no real concept of the long term consequences of their actions. And now there does not seem to be any distinction between right and wrong behavior.

That is a perfect recipe for a breakdown of a society..........history has lots of example of this. Civilization demands a moral/legal base to function.

I agree. Western civilisations do but Thais have different views.

[neverdie]

OP,

I have to chime in here, Thailand is a great country, but it seems to be a little top end heavy with con artists and liars. What do you think about that?

Theres a few other questions I'd like to ask of you to, if you feel up to it?

[wilsongbrown]

JR the Thai system works to support "civilisation" the problem is, as a non Thai, you are not covered by the insurance policies that exist within it. Either become more Thai so force yourself into the "web" or dont play in the same sandbox.

My point is that the system is not working precisely because of corruption--lies, theft, etc. Civilization--any civilization--must have a moral/legal base. When that moral/legal base breaks down, as it has done in Thailand, civilization breaks down. We are seeing this happen daily..........not only foreigners are being hurt.......Thais are being hurt.

In the example I gave.......had my relative done the right thing, several people would be happy now, he would have ended up with more, not less, money along with a long term commitment that would have kept a salary going in his direction.

Now, he wins in the short term, but seen from a long term perspective, he lost a huge amount of money and the only opportunity any decent person will ever give him. Thais think in the short term.......no real concept of the long term consequences of their actions. And now there does not seem to be any distinction between right and wrong behavior.

That is a perfect recipe for a breakdown of a society..........history has lots of example of this. Civilization demands a moral/legal base to function.

I agree. Western civilisations do but Thais have different views.

Western 'civilisations' have welfare systems which provide food and shelter. Asia, not only Thailand, doesn't. That's not to regret the fact that some will allow their survival/greed instincts inherent but kept in check in Western 'civilsations' by due process of enforceable laws to take over.

You've posted fairly positively thus far on Thailand and you've allowed this stupid lending to sour your view. It will pass and, as you say, you won't do it again. Particulary those sums. How many Thais do you know earn that in five years?

To Old Sparrow. You for sure are the wisest Old Bird on the forum.

[wilsongbrown]

OP,

I have to chime in here, Thailand is a great country, but it seems to be a little top end heavy with con artists and liars. What do you think about that?

Theres a few other questions I'd like to ask of you to, if you feel up to it?

Yep, I agree. But most of the con artist and liars I've met here on Phuket are for sure other farangs. And this is from one who at one time was attempted to be duly duped by a Thai. Stupid little prick didn't get away with it either. Watch your back wherever and with whomsover you deal with in a practically lawless country. Duh.

Edited August 11, 2009 by wilsongbrown

[dmax]

Strikes me as a setup of some kind, difficult to know.

just repy to the post <deleted>

[Terminator]

And 'visible' has become 'invisible' .... sure was a troll in my book

[oldsparrow]

Thanks wilsongbrown, I am a Thai, the 5th generation born in this country and think I know something of what the local perceive Jai Dee, Jai Dum and Thai family affairs.

It's clear the western perception of family is much different from the Thai's one. while you get married to have seperate live with your partner, the agricultural base Asian society make it a social relation affairs. The Chinese girl moves into the boy family, The Thai boy move into the girl family, the Japanese bride wears white not because it's the symbol of purity, the Japaneses wear white for the funeral. The girl dies from her family to beloings to the boy family. The new member bacame the helping hand.

Then a richer guy married their girl. What do you expect especially from the poorer families.

Cheating is cheating I don't justify that but for the concept of Jai Dee and Jai Dum there are deeper impact beyond the face value or the present situation.

It depends on how much you commit yourself to the live here with the local people who are suppose to be your folk, or at least this is what they think.

Except for some city folks Thai you can't strictly deploy the concepts of mine mine mine, your your your with your in law.

When you lend support to the in law family you are entitled to request for support back as well. However, according to the western culture you never dream of getting anythin free or without exact bill from oher people.

...and it's just the simple fact that in most of your situation the Thai in law can't lend any support to you, at least for the mean time. Among the Thai we also can't expect instant pay back too. Especially in the family the giving and taking are very blur.

However, the social mechanism of Bunkhun "Paying back" is still very stong. In fact too strong that it override the law and order. Any people who doesn't pay back is branded a anti-social with no personal credit.

Among family it's mostly very unofficially.

Decades ago both side of my grand parents worked in BKK but many cousins were in the nearby province. They took many kid cousin into the house for they could go to school in BKK. They were raised as equal as my parents, share the room, The grannies gave them a ride on the same cars to school. No money was charge. With this Jai Dee and some other, they got respected very much from the cousin families. One even wrote down in his will that my grand dad is a great supporter of his family and his kids must see to my family need. The merit passes on to my parents. The cousins became successful and I can't recall any occasion they refuse my parents's request.

It's all up to you. This can be stupid unreliable invesment. Of course when it's invesment it can go wrong but a free gift won't go wrong.

I never think it's an easy life for westerner to marry a Thai and live in TL. The present situation surprise me.

[Birdman]

"And 'visible' has become 'invisible' .... sure was a troll in my book"

maybe he just has to digest all that first and all that on his other thread as well...

or maybe he expected something more gentle and could not handle our straightforwardness...

Edited August 11, 2009 by Birdman

[Datsun240Z]

I never think it's an easy life for westerner to marry a Thai and live in TL. The present situation surprise me.

Yeah, you can say that. Coming from a modern western culture, and than trying to adapt, work/live and understand the Thai culture, is a pain in the ass.

[SunSeek01]

Hi Visible,

I am just finishing a 3 week holiday and it was great from start to finish.

I brought my Mom over for 2 weeks and she loved it. She has been many places in the world, and loved Thailand.

Of course I had to get a bit higher scale hotels than my usual!

I don't know why there seem to be alot of complaints by Farangs. We are guests in your country and I have almost always been treated well.

[caf]

JR the Thai system works to support "civilisation" the problem is, as a non Thai, you are not covered by the insurance policies that exist within it. Either become more Thai so force yourself into the "web" or dont play in the same sandbox.

My point is that the system is not working precisely because of corruption--lies, theft, etc. Civilization--any civilization--must have a moral/legal base. When that moral/legal base breaks down, as it has done in Thailand, civilization breaks down. We are seeing this happen daily..........not only foreigners are being hurt.......Thais are being hurt.

In the example I gave.......had my relative done the right thing, several people would be happy now, he would have ended up with more, not less, money along with a long term commitment that would have kept a salary going in his direction.

Now, he wins in the short term, but seen from a long term perspective, he lost a huge amount of money and the only opportunity any decent person will ever give him. Thais think in the short term.......no real concept of the long term consequences of their actions. And now there does not seem to be any distinction between right and wrong behavior.

That is a perfect recipe for a breakdown of a society..........history has lots of example of this. Civilization demands a moral/legal base to function.

I agree. Western civilisations do but Thais have different views.

Western 'civilisations' have welfare systems which provide food and shelter. Asia, not only Thailand, doesn't. That's not to regret the fact that some will allow their survival/greed instincts inherent but kept in check in Western 'civilsations' by due process of enforceable laws to take over.

You've posted fairly positively thus far on Thailand and you've allowed this stupid lending to sour your view. It will pass and, as you say, you won't do it again. Particulary those sums. How many Thais do you know earn that in five years?

To Old Sparrow. You for sure are the wisest Old Bird on the forum.

I don't quite follow the bit in bold. Any explanations?

[caf]

Thanks wilsongbrown, I am a Thai, the 5th generation born in this country and think I know something of what the local perceive Jai Dee, Jai Dum and Thai family affairs.

It's clear the western perception of family is much different from the Thai's one. while you get married to have seperate live with your partner, the agricultural base Asian society make it a social relation affairs. The Chinese girl moves into the boy family, The Thai boy move into the girl family, the Japanese bride wears white not because it's the symbol of purity, the Japaneses wear white for the funeral. The girl dies from her family to beloings to the boy family. The new member bacame the helping hand.

Then a richer guy married their girl. What do you expect especially from the poorer families.

Cheating is cheating I don't justify that but for the concept of Jai Dee and Jai Dum there are deeper impact beyond the face value or the present situation.

It depends on how much you commit yourself to the live here with the local people who are suppose to be your folk, or at least this is what they think.

Except for some city folks Thai you can't strictly deploy the concepts of mine mine mine, your your your with your in law.

When you lend support to the in law family you are entitled to request for support back as well. However, according to the western culture you never dream of getting anythin free or without exact bill from oher people.

...and it's just the simple fact that in most of your situation the Thai in law can't lend any support to you, at least for the mean time. Among the Thai we also can't expect instant pay back too. Especially in the family the giving and taking are very blur.

However, the social mechanism of Bunkhun "Paying back" is still very stong. In fact too strong that it override the law and order. Any people who doesn't pay back is branded a anti-social with no personal credit.

Among family it's mostly very unofficially.

Decades ago both side of my grand parents worked in BKK but many cousins were in the nearby province. They took many kid cousin into the house for they could go to school in BKK. They were raised as equal as my parents, share the room, The grannies gave them a ride on the same cars to school. No money was charge. With this Jai Dee and some other, they got respected very much from the cousin families. One even wrote down in his will that my grand dad is a great supporter of his family and his kids must see to my family need. The merit passes on to my parents. The cousins became successful and I can't recall any occasion they refuse my parents's request.

It's all up to you. This can be stupid unreliable invesment. Of course when it's invesment it can go wrong but a free gift won't go wrong.

I never think it's an easy life for westerner to marry a Thai and live in TL. The present situation surprise me.

Very wise words. oldsparrow

You make a good point I think too about city types and ordinary Thais

Do you think with relationships with farang the Thais have a different attitude with paying back in nthat it is often one way giving: farang to Thai. I am generalising.

[caf]

JR,

I agree with another poster that generalisation s not the practical lesson at present. becasue you will see no different in everything or everybody then you can't consider the best or possible way to go around and finally no choice in any lifestyle in TL.

Nothing big is going down, it has been like this for a thousand years. It's just yourself that suffer in your situation. This is the focus in need.

You see huge gap in Thai people's lives. Huge gap are also their mind, perception of live, concern for the living and how to make the living.

May be you offer casual Jai Dee because it was your in law and be more on guard when it's business dealing. This's why the Thais have get married with people of the similar background, economic and social status. To you it may sound undemocratic but it's is practical safety measure around here.

Perhaps this answers my point to you about Farang - Thai relationships; they are often not equal (age, wealth, education)

[caf]

Hi Visible,

I am just finishing a 3 week holiday and it was great from start to finish.

I brought my Mom over for 2 weeks and she loved it. She has been many places in the world, and loved Thailand.

Of course I had to get a bit higher scale hotels than my usual!

I don't know why there seem to be alot of complaints by Farangs. We are guests in your country and I have almost always been treated well.

we are not always treated as guests though are we?

[neverdie]

Hi Visible,

I am just finishing a 3 week holiday and it was great from start to finish.

I brought my Mom over for 2 weeks and she loved it. She has been many places in the world, and loved Thailand.

Of course I had to get a bit higher scale hotels than my usual!

I don't know why there seem to be alot of complaints by Farangs. We are guests in your country and I have almost always been treated well.

No doubt Sunseek01 & his old lady were milked for every sweet buck they had & they're too nieve (for better choice of words) to even realise it.

Yeah, my first 3 week trip to Thailand was great too.....so what?

[visible]

Hi Visible,

I am just finishing a 3 week holiday and it was great from start to finish.

I brought my Mom over for 2 weeks and she loved it. She has been many places in the world, and loved Thailand.

Of course I had to get a bit higher scale hotels than my usual!

I don't know why there seem to be alot of complaints by Farangs. We are guests in your country and I have almost always been treated well.

Your family are warm. If your Mom would like to come here again, you can take your Mom all time.

[saintofsilence]

[Birdman]

Hi Visible,

I am just finishing a 3 week holiday and it was great from start to finish.

I brought my Mom over for 2 weeks and she loved it. She has been many places in the world, and loved Thailand.

Of course I had to get a bit higher scale hotels than my usual!

I don't know why there seem to be alot of complaints by Farangs. We are guests in your country and I have almost always been treated well.

Your family are warm. If your Mom would like to come here again, you can take your Mom all time.

If you reply only to the most positive statement until now by saying that guy is welcome, because he has a nice time with his mom on holidays here and ignore all the rest, you are certainly not qualified to discuss the real issues here, my friend.

[visible]

Hi Visible,

I am just finishing a 3 week holiday and it was great from start to finish.

I brought my Mom over for 2 weeks and she loved it. She has been many places in the world, and loved Thailand.

Of course I had to get a bit higher scale hotels than my usual!

I don't know why there seem to be alot of complaints by Farangs. We are guests in your country and I have almost always been treated well.

Your family are warm. If your Mom would like to come here again, you can take your Mom all time.

If you reply only to the most positive statement until now by saying that guy is welcome, because he has a nice time with his mom on holidays here and ignore all the rest, you are certainly not qualified to discuss the real issues here, my friend.

Thank for your comment. I am not good at English but I will try. Please give the time for me.

[oldsparrow]

caf:

Perhaps this answers my point to you about Farang - Thai relationships; they are often not equal (age, wealth, education)

****

Yes caf, I have 2 female cousins married to Westerners, they met in university class there and never have relationship problems. The girls are actually more welthy.However, there are natural difficulties when people from countries of better system come to live in a messy environment. The difficulties can effect relationship but so far my folk have been doing just fine.

[OxfordWill]

Civilization demands a moral/legal base to function.

Thailand has one, you are simply ignorant of it. I speculate you are looking for the only moral bases you know- that of your own culture and cultures you have enough experience of, and when not finding it or them, assuming there is none. Volumes have been written on the varying "moral bases" as you put it that exist in different cultures around the globe, can you be sure you know how to spot all of them? I certainly cant.

Edited August 12, 2009 by OxfordWill