Planes Clip Wings At Bangkok Airport

[Rinrada]

Dont want to rush these things....decisions..decisions...

[george]

Update:

Both pilots held mutally responsible

Don Muang incident inspires new regulations

BANGKOK: -- Singapore Airlines and Thai Airways International are being held mutually responsible for the accident on April 19 at Don Muang International Airport where the wings of their planes collided.

Pilots and co-pilots of both planes have been suspended for a week and are undergoing physical tests and rules and regulations training, Deputy Transport Minister Phumtham Wechayachai said yesterday.

“It caused minor damage but this incident should not have happened. We need to take further precautionary measures to prevent serious incidents in the future,” he said.

A preliminary investigation found that while taxiing towards the terminal, arriving Singapore Airlines’ flight SQ 068 parked 194 metres from the intersection, despite being required to be at least 250 metres away.

While THAI’s departing flight TG 602 bound for Hong Kong was taxiing up to the runway the pilot noticed that the Singapore Airlines plane was parked way off course, but that he still decided to proceed.

The investigation has yet to yield conclusive findings and results will be delivered by a special committee charged with looking into the incident. The committee consists of representatives from Singapore’s civil aviation agency as well as Thailand’s Civil Aviation Department.

Chaisak Angsuwan, director-general of the department, said that to prevent similar accidents in the future, all flying rules and regulations would need to be reviewed and all airlines made to ensure that their pilots fully understand them.

“This is a serious matter, given that no matter how minor an incident is, it has an influence on the particular airlines’ reputation,” he said.

--The Nation 2005-04-26

[george]

Both pilots suspended for recklessness

BANGKOK: -- Thailand and Singapore have agreed to suspend the pilots of the two airliners involved in a ground accident at Don Muang international airport on April 19 after an initial investigation found them guilty of recklessness.

Deputy Transport Minister Phumtham Vejjayachai said the probe found that the Boeing 777 of Singapore Airlines (SIA) was parked 194.4 metres beyond the holding line at its parking bay while waiting for the Hong Kong-bound Airbus 330 of Thai Airways International (THAI) to taxi prior to takeoff.

But the THAI pilot also miscalculated the distance between the two aircraft, causing his plane to scratch the Boeing, he said.

The THAI plane lost its right wingtip while the SIA aircraft suffered a damaged aileron.

Mr Phumtham said the accident was considered serious since such recklessness could result in great damage and loss if no measures were enforced to prevent a recurrence.

Both Thailand and Singapore agreed with the initial finding. A joint committee of their aviation authorities would be set up to come up with a final and formal conclusion soon, he said.

``At this stage, the pilots on both sides (whose names are being withheld) have been suspended. They will undergo flight aptitude tests and also additional aviation training,'' Mr Phumtham said.

Chaisak Angsuwan, director-general of Thailand's Aviation Department, said no legal action has been taken against the two pilots so far.

In another development, THAI chairman Wanchai Sarathoonthat yesterday denied reports that the national airline's pilots would go on strike tomorrow to protest a new pay scale, under which THAI staff would have to pay their personal income tax themselves.

He said his inquiries with both the THAI management and labour union showed the report was just a ``groundless rumour''.

Transport Minister Suriya Jungrungreangkit said THAI executives would have to take responsibility if the pilots really went on strike.

--The Post 2005-04-26

[JimGant]

The THAI plane lost its right wingtip while the SIA aircraft suffered a damaged aileron.

Original reports implied 'wingtip-to-wingtip.' If the TG's wingtip hit the SIA's aileron, TG misjudged by considerable amount.

TG wingtip damaged was on right side, the first officer's position. Mmm.

[DaveYo]

Jeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzz, there is no way SQ can be parked 80 meters off course from the frickin terminal gate point.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is way out of line. I know for a fact no pilot would park that far off course unless the ground guides were or had to be totally drunk. And the ground guides are THAI PEOPLE.

Here is the real deal behind the findings folks. SQ was threatened to be banned from landing in Thailand for a specific period of time unless they too suspended their pilot. Knowing the Thai system here, Thai's don't like to lose face and take the full frickin blame. So since this is Thailand, they used this Threat against SQ and if SQ told the Thais FTW, no way Jose, the amount of revenue lost in the squat squabble over who donnit, would be quite considerable. Singapore needs to have a license to land and to enter Thailand. Thailand could have suspended that license meaning all flights to and from Singapore to Thailand would have been suspended for a period of time and possibly even permanently. Then Singapore at same token (indonesia) would have banned all Thai Aircraft from entering their country, thus escalating this into an International Incident and Squat Squabble over Who Did It First!!!!!!!!!

So in essence, both carriers said to the pilots take a week off for vacation!!!!!!!! Training, and rehab, not for the SQ pilot. It was not his fault. The Thais will pat their pilot on the back but warn him to be more careful.

The competition between Indonesia and Thailand is very intense, and they do battle for customers literally and they even slash fares at times against each other to the point of being ridiculous.

ALSO THE TROUBLES DOWN SOUTH BY THE BORDER, CONTRIBUTED SOME SORE FEELINGS BETWEEN THE TWO GOVERNMENTS.

So now the word is out to "ALL FOREIGN AIRCRAFT" that land here in Thailand. -------> BEWARE OF THAI AIRCRAFT AND STAY CLEAR AWAY FROM THEM AND GIVE THEM RIGHT OF WAY. Cause Thai people like to get into accidents and for the most part they do not understand traffic rules much less understand how to drive properly.

If you don't believe me, take a look how Thai people drive their vehicles right smack on their own roads, and especially how the motocycles move about all around your car. Thai people are a frickin nightmare.

Had this happened in USA, you can bet the Thai carrier and their pilot would have gotten their bells rung nice and loud and very clear, cause the FAA in USA don't mess around when it comes to planes on their turf.

It will also be interesting now that Thai aircraft can land further places other than in L.A. and S.F. They get to go to Chicago and to New York and to Miami soon, non stop direct from Bangkok. (no Stop Overs)

So if they crack up in American territory, then I will hopefully get the chance to say to Thais, I told you so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

[Greer]

Re the threatened suspension of landing rights, do you know this to be true? I would be quite surprised at that as the effect on regional tourism would be dramatic, and Thailand can't afford that at the moment.

Not quite sure why border problems with the Islamic country of Malaysia would have anything to do with the feelings between Thailand and Singapore. The Malaysians and the Singaporeans historically are not the best of friends in any case - remember that Singapore parted company with Malaysia on fairly unfriendly terms, even if it was quite a while ago - but believe me, I have lived in both countries, and their governments did not get along much.

The same applies to Indonesia, another neighbour, but not necessarily anything to do with Singapore - freindly enough relations, as have most of the ASEAN countries on the surface, but it would be a surprise if the Indonesians took Singapores side against Thailand over such a thing.

Maybe I am wrong...but it certainly seems an odd reaction if that is what happened.

[Greer]

Just a quick question...Daveyo - do they even have ground guides in Bangkok airport?

I have never noticed anyone guiding the aircraft at all.

Usually after push-back they just have one guy there on the cans till they complete some of their checks (I suppose that's what they are doing), then he disconnects and either rides the tractor off to the next aircraft, or gets into one of the small vehicles and heads away.

On the eastern side of the taxiway that runs along the length of the terminal, parallel with the main runways, the aircraft are under their own guidance - so I was thinking that this may have been where the SQ flight was waiting, but I read it that he had parked too far past his correct holding point, and that was why he was so close to the TG aircraft.

Is this what is meant by "off line", rather than meaning to the right or left of it's correct location? Quite confusing really - it would be great if we had a map to go by.

[maerim]

Just a quick question...Daveyo - do they even have ground guides in Bangkok airport?

You are joking of course asking the reverend DaveYo this question?

I wouldn't even ask this gentleman the time even though he is an expert on everything under the sun, without a backup on the internet and a very good watch.

[udon]

Dave......... SIN is in Singapore, a republic, not Indonesia, buy a <deleted> map.

<deleted> has the Muslim south got to do with SIN.???

[IMA_FARANG]

The investigation of Tuesday's collision between Thai Airways International (THAI) and Singapore Airlines has been delayed by the decoding of Singapore Airlines' black boxes and transcribing the voice recorder.

Some years ago I worked in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia at an airport communications station that monitored air-ground comm and ground traffic control (taxiway/runway ops). All the conversations were taped on recorders that ran continously, and tapes were changed every 24 hours at midnight local time. Tapes were stored for 30 days, then written over. In case of any accident or inquiry that tape was pulled until the inquiry was finished.

[DaveYo]

Hmmmmmm, actually Singapore is on an island between Malaysia and Indonesia, and this spot I believe is all on its own as a country give or take. To be employed by Singapore Airlines itself is a real accomplishment since their rules and training and requirements are so strict and one of the toughest to meet most of USA personnel would never make it.

Their flight attendants undergo one of the most toughest and stringent trainings ever and if they don't pass, it they are history.

Yes it is no secret that Malaysia and Indonesia don't get along that well but they tolerate each other in a peaceful way. As of Thailand and Indonesia well the way things are going it is really up in the air.

Yes, Thailand could have banned SQ from landing or suspended their landing rights, and vice versa but that would be in the extreme worst case scenario so to speak. It could have been 24 hours or a couple of days or a week or etc. Up to Thailand. Bottom line here, SQ was at Thai mercy cause the incident happened on Thai turf.

Yes the plane guides have to be present whenever a plane comes to the gate. It is mandatory by the FAA. The rule is quite clear that no plane is to approach the gate on its own without either the guides in place or the pushback truck with the guides in place towing it in. They are known as marshalls in the airport arena.

Minimum number of Marshals is 4. (Guides) One on each side of the wing, and two in front, one on the ground and one on the ramp just underneath the passenger gate area ( where everybody is sitting down waiting to board the plane). The fifth marshal is usually at the tail when the plane is being pushed back or going into the gate. Most passengers will never see this person unless you got X-Ray vision.

When the plane is pushed back same number of Marshals are there. Sometimes you see them and sometimes you don't depending where they are walking at. You also have a Marshal underneath the plane with the pushback truck. After the plane is pushed back the pivot pin is removed from the front gear housing, and back up a little and they wait till all the engines are started. Once the Captains gives all is clear to the Marshal under the plane via cable connection, then the Marshal and pushback truck go on the side towards the gate and stand and give a signal that the plane is clear to move and await the Captains acknowledgement. At this point all the Marshals involved are standing together as a group. Once that is done they go about their business waiting for the next plane to arrive. By the way, Captains or First Officers signal either by flashing the taxi light and or wave by thumbs up with clear visibility in the flight deck. The Marshals give a certain specific signal to the Captains when all is clear. Some of you may have seen such, as they raise their hands in the air, and another one has guide lights on with one arm raised up and the other on the side.

Oh Maerim, I am an expert on Aircraft and maintenance and its operations and proceedures. Anything else I am a baboon so to speak!!!!!! And by the way I have not been blessed to obtain such a humble status as reverend since I am such a sinner to boot!!!!!!!!!!

So I suppose the Thai pilot and the SQ pilot are having a ball of such a good time down at Pataya Beach!!!!!!!!

Daveyo