Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[samuitone]

After the exit of Chuan Leekpai as premier, Thaksin entered. He proved that it's easy to get away with anything in a kingdom that doesn't like complaining. I fear that anyone in power will emulate Thaksin's methods now.

[beammeup]

There's a lot of talk, whereas action seems to have dwindled.

Too bad for Thailand, the junta has won.

Next stop, ruination.

Dont you mean urination? I think you've had too many beers dude.

[roundeye]

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying.

I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about. Your problem is that many of you don't speak Thai well, don't read or write Thai, and the Thais who can speak English are mostly yellow shirts. The red shirts aren't as educated and don't speak English as well, so you're not hearing their side accurately because it's being filtered to you through the intellectual elite and their agenda. You get to hear what the red shirts are about from their enemies. So many foreigners support the yellow shirts not fully realizing that the yellow shirts are majorly xenophobic while the red shirts welcome international influence and development.

The yellow shirts are the old rule aristocracy, an outdated form of rule based on class elitism. They do not represent the best for all of Thailand, but for a sector of Thailand. They are the educated elite who would like to keep the classes separate. They are the party who suggested giving more weight to votes from people registered in Bangkok than people living in rural areas, simply on the basis that they feel they are more educated and therefore more qualified to run the country. These people are often as white as white gets because they haven't worked a day in their life, they don't know what manual labor is, can't even appreciate it. It is these types who have Burmese maids living in the backs of their homes without even the slightest tinge of guilt. They actually think they're being generous to their house slaves. But it is the same policies of the yellow shirts which has made visas and work permits and foreigners being in Thailand such a nuisance and a hassle. It is their fear of "losing their country" to outsiders through economic means (not political) that fuels their decisions.

There has been a 60-year campaign to unite people over nationalistic pride even when they don't see eye-to-eye politically, but unfortunately what have been propagated as national values for all Thais are often veiled agendas aimed at pushing the aristocratic elite's xenophobic policies. Self-sufficiency economy is a way of saying let's retain economic control of our country by limiting outside influence. And don't forget it was the yellow shirts -- peaceful or not -- who shut down the airports. That should tell you something about how they view the international community and its role in Thailand. They don't much care for the foreigners in their country--they don't appreciate them, they don't want them. They tolerate them because they want their money, but they want to completely control it so that the foreigners become financial cashcows while Thais direct the money flow.

Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. Democracy is the great equalizer to the lower classes, to the poor, to the underprivileged and uneducated -- it gives them a voice for change in their direction. Whether Thaksin was a bad guy or not is a moot point. There should have been due process -- all of the investigations which have come up after the coup should have been done through proper channels to oust him legally. The coup leaders have eroded their own legal and political system, and their political tactics have more to do with the cult of personality than with infrastructure, systems or laws. I say go Red shirts. Get your country back, get your democracy back, get your hope and your freedom back, get your opportunity back.

Thank you, Howard, for this post. I am new to Thailand and its situation. I do not know which side is right or wrong, but have not found much info from the red shirt point of view. At least now I have a point of view from what seems to be a professional, CALM source. Just as in the USA, it is hard to get the facts w/o personal opinion and emotional yelling and screaming. I would like to hear more from the yellow shirt side in the same way so as to make an intelligent decision as opposed to an emotional one on this important subject.If others out there can give direction as to how this can be accomplished, then maybe we can all come up with an intelligent plan to settle this problem.

[basjke]

This is the guy at who's residence some heavy war weapons were found after that grenade was fired at the army HQ a few days,of course he didn't want to harm somebody just make headlines.Why he is still allowed to make more headlines?

In any civilized country he would already behind bars for the weapons they found at his residence and again for the kind of statements he makes now.

What's next?He just gonna throw some real bomb or start a war in reality and the leaders of this country gonna be surprised when it happens.

[citizen33]

In parliamentary elections the residents in a constituency vote for the candidate of their choice who may or may not be a member of a particular party although obviously they usually are. The winning candidate takes their seat in the House of Commons as one part of the parliament. the other being the House of Lords. Gordon Brown is the member of parliament for Kircaldy and Cowdenbeath as he was elected by that constituency.

The party with the most members is asked by the Queen to form a government and that party chooses it's leader who becomes Prime Minister or although the original title , which is on the door of number 10 Downing Street , First Lord of the Treasury. The Prime Minister only has power as far as his elected members allow him and ultimately parliament itself.

I don’t feel confident enough to propose a correction, but the extra dimension in the modern era is surely that parliamentary candidates typically stand as members of a party which publishes a manifesto (something that happens in the UK but not all systems). So perhaps there is a kind of ‘manifesto democracy’ in which the electorate votes for a known set of policies and the leader who was at the forefront in advocating those policies. In the UK system the leader was indeed traditionally selected by the Parliamentarians, but from 1981 Labour moved to an ‘electoral college’ system where MPs only had 30% of the vote. This proved very controversial among constitutional theorists who believed there should be a chain of responsibility from Cabinet to Parliament to electorate. Most observers agree that modern political parties (and the networks that influence them) force their way into this chain.

I still think that the process that brought Abhisit to power was very dodgy.

[beammeup]

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying.

I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about. Your problem is that many of you don't speak Thai well, don't read or write Thai, and the Thais who can speak English are mostly yellow shirts. The red shirts aren't as educated and don't speak English as well, so you're not hearing their side accurately because it's being filtered to you through the intellectual elite and their agenda. You get to hear what the red shirts are about from their enemies. So many foreigners support the yellow shirts not fully realizing that the yellow shirts are majorly xenophobic while the red shirts welcome international influence and development.

The yellow shirts are the old rule aristocracy, an outdated form of rule based on class elitism. They do not represent the best for all of Thailand, but for a sector of Thailand. They are the educated elite who would like to keep the classes separate. They are the party who suggested giving more weight to votes from people registered in Bangkok than people living in rural areas, simply on the basis that they feel they are more educated and therefore more qualified to run the country. These people are often as white as white gets because they haven't worked a day in their life, they don't know what manual labor is, can't even appreciate it. It is these types who have Burmese maids living in the backs of their homes without even the slightest tinge of guilt. They actually think they're being generous to their house slaves. But it is the same policies of the yellow shirts which has made visas and work permits and foreigners being in Thailand such a nuisance and a hassle. It is their fear of "losing their country" to outsiders through economic means (not political) that fuels their decisions.

There has been a 60-year campaign to unite people over nationalistic pride even when they don't see eye-to-eye politically, but unfortunately what have been propagated as national values for all Thais are often veiled agendas aimed at pushing the aristocratic elite's xenophobic policies. Self-sufficiency economy is a way of saying let's retain economic control of our country by limiting outside influence. And don't forget it was the yellow shirts -- peaceful or not -- who shut down the airports. That should tell you something about how they view the international community and its role in Thailand. They don't much care for the foreigners in their country--they don't appreciate them, they don't want them. They tolerate them because they want their money, but they want to completely control it so that the foreigners become financial cashcows while Thais direct the money flow.

Red shirts are angry for a very good reason. Their country is not a democracy and has not been for at least four years. Democracy is the great equalizer to the lower classes, to the poor, to the underprivileged and uneducated -- it gives them a voice for change in their direction. Whether Thaksin was a bad guy or not is a moot point. There should have been due process -- all of the investigations which have come up after the coup should have been done through proper channels to oust him legally. The coup leaders have eroded their own legal and political system, and their political tactics have more to do with the cult of personality than with infrastructure, systems or laws. I say go Red shirts. Get your country back, get your democracy back, get your hope and your freedom back, get your opportunity back.

Thank you, Howard, for this post. I am new to Thailand and its situation. I do not know which side is right or wrong, but have not found much info from the red shirt point of view. At least now I have a point of view from what seems to be a professional, CALM source. Just as in the USA, it is hard to get the facts w/o personal opinion and emotional yelling and screaming. I would like to hear more from the yellow shirt side in the same way so as to make an intelligent decision as opposed to an emotional one on this important subject.If others out there can give direction as to how this can be accomplished, then maybe we can all come up with an intelligent plan to settle this problem.

Its not about yellow vs red! its about Taksins goons ripping the country apart so he can get his money back.

[Antimus]

Is Gen Khattiya is training reds to fight the Army? If so, he must first resign his commission from the army. An army officer "at war" with the army is a traitor to the army. Is sedition not a crime in Thailand? What about insurrection? When I first heard about this Khattiya, I thought he was a harmless wacko. Then, I said to myself: how could a person with that level of intelligence become a major general. Well, Jatuporno could become an MP, so I guess intelligence is not a factor. Doesn't speak well of Thailand. What will the world think of Thailand? But Thailand, to preserve its good reputation, should not tolerate these rebellious blabbermouths. These armed, dangerous and no-longer-funny clowns should be jailed before they do more damage to Thailand.

[enz13]

lol @ howard

[eggomaniac]

For many of the pro democracy folks, Thaksin is just a sideshow and this crack pot is a good smoke screen. The real issue with them is the 100's of elected politicians that they have sent, since 1932, to represent them who get ousted, overthrown, and 'banned'.

Many commentators have suggested the Red Shirt movement is underestimated. It's NOT just a group of Thaksin thugs.

------------------------

The Red Shirts want a Republic and therein lies their gift for underestimation. The resistance to that will divide the country into clear camps.

---------------

Both sides are underestimating each other; it's two trains heading faster than than they know right at each other.

-----------

On the flight back from Thailand, after discussing my Plan for a stable, peaceful and prosperous future for Thailand with some University Professors, a quirk fate had a great new story about Thailand called, Faded Smiles.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fa9dc020-0078-11...144feabdc0.html

This Article really paints an accurate picture. I found the comments of Thitinan Pongsudhirak, associate professor at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn university, to be open and on target.

---------------------

Thailand, who has already had a very rocky history with democracy, with over a dozen constitutions and military coups, is heading for the worst times it has ever seen.

---------------------

Wherein lies the problem, sleeps the solution, though. I have been making attempts through contacting academics KPI to reveal a Plan that would switch the Red and Yellow train off a collision course. The normal street level Reds I talked to like my Plan and Yellows, who are not corrupt, like it too.

[stormnut]

A repeat of Thailands Darkest Day of May 1992 when the thai Army started firing and killing their own people?

[mca]

may i remind you that Hitler was "democratically" elected too

Godwin's Law. Pro Thaksin posters win.

[ppmacready]

Is he a nutjob? Is he serious? Or both?

His the kind of guy THEY made a general.

[brahmburgers]

Is he a nutjob? Is he serious? Or both?

His the kind of guy THEY made a general.

Does he still get a paycheck every month? ....and wear the Thai military uniform with its emblems and such?

All the power to him, I say.

I support the red shirts' cause, though I wish they'd chosen a better mascot than Thaksin. Where do all you foreigners get your information from as to what the red shirts are about vs. what the yellow shirts are about? The media? The English-print media in Thailand hates Thaksin and the red shirts, so you're naturally going to see the yellow shirts' press releases being re-printed as news. Pick up a copy of Truth for Today or something and read one of the articles in English in the back -- you might be surprised to find what they are saying. I see and hear a lot of comments from foreigners who don't really know what the red shirts are angry about.....

The classic rebuttal for someone who's trying to make a hollow point: "You don't know what it's all about. I read Thai, so I know more than you" ....sort of stuff.

Actually, I don't care so much about what the Red Shirt leaders are declaring. I'm more concerned about what they and their followers are doing. I judge a man by his actions. A Red Shirt leader can shout all day on a platform about democracy, but if some of his followers are tossing grenades at opponents or attacking cars or killing young women protesters on the other side of the fence, ....then that speaks volumes to me - much more than a bunch of manifestos in newspapers.

[webfact]

Khattiya gets a reprieve

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on January 24, 2010

Court rejects police request to search Ratchaburi house of suspended major

The court yesterday dismissed a police request for a warrant to search suspended Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdiphol's private home in Ratchaburi due to the lack of hard evidence.

The outspoken Army specialist, who has been accused of masterminding the grenade attack on the Army's headquarters in Bangkok last week, yesterday insisted he was innocent.

Khattiya said he would leave the southern city of Hat Yai by plane in the evening to join a red-shirt rally at Khao Soi Dao in Chantaburi and was ready to turn himself in to police.

Photararm district police in Ratchaburi yesterday sought the court's approval to search Khattiya's private house after Pol Lt-Colonel Santana Prayoonrat reported that there had been some suspicious activities there.

People had reported seeing Khattiya and his men entering the building late at night and leaving early in the morning, Santana said, adding that the place could have something to do with the grenade attack at the Army's headquarters on January 15.

However, the court turned down the police request for a search warrant on grounds that there was no substantial evidence to back the request.

Khattiya's elder sister Jiarania Mettakitbariboon said she looks after the place for Khattiya - a nearly empty two-storey wooden house that was recently remodelled and painted in red.

Jiarania said her brother sometimes comes back to the house with friends but there's nothing more to it.

Khattiya's quarters inside an Army barracks in Bangkok was last week searched by police and military personnel.

Asserting that he's facing "the dirtiest political game" of his life, Khattiya threatened to take revenge on General Anupong Paochinda once the Army chief reaches mandatory retirement later this year.

"I have never verbally abused [Anupong]. If I'm not reinstated within a month from now, I believe the red shirts will stamp on you and I won't help," he said.

Khattiya has been suspended from active duty by the Army chief.

Anupong told reporters that he had never personally ordered the prosecution of Khattiya and would let police handle the case under due process of law.

Security around Anupong's residence was stepped up yesterday.

Pheu Thai MP Pracha Prasobdee said the charge against Khattiya was an attempt to help set the stage for a military coup.

The opposition MP said he had heard that Anupong would be replaced by deputy Army chief General Prayuth Chan-ocha due to fear of a return to power by convicted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Another Pheu Thai Party member, Pallop Pinmanee, said the weapons discovered at Khattiya's residence in Bangkok were planted, as there were too many coincidences. The raid uncovered nine M16 rounds and other ammunition and holsters.

Pallop, a retired Army general, also criticised the Army chief for allowing police to handcuff a conscripted soldier assigned to Khattiya during the house search, saying it was unusual and unbecoming of the military to allow police to enter their compound.

-- The Nation 2010-01-24

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[uts]

Civil War comes to Thailand..?? Brilliant. Another simply EXCELLENT way to highlight the country around the world!

Bye-bye tourists for another season..!!!

R.I.P Thailand

Paramilitary are illegal!

Shove them in the slow house, until the trial in 2 - 3 years!

This is the best way to keep the tourists away.

Very good for the economy.

[lensta]

This is the guy at who's residence some heavy war weapons were found after that grenade was fired at the army HQ a few days,of course he didn't want to harm somebody just make headlines.Why he is still allowed to make more headlines?

In any civilized country he would already behind bars for the weapons they found at his residence and again for the kind of statements he makes now.

What's next?He just gonna throw some real bomb or start a war in reality and the leaders of this country gonna be surprised when it happens.

"In any civilized country he would already behind bars for the weapons they found at his residence and again for the kind of statements he makes now"

Please don't think that Thailand is a civilized country, it's not. Thailand is a 2nd world country that continues to shoot itself in the foot politically, on humanitarian issues, and ecconomically. Unfortunately Thailand is in reverse gear with a heavy foot on the accelerator. When eventually the reds, yellow, blues and whatever other colored shirts they have here all gets sorted out, I wonder what the next thing that will happen to cause harm to the country. It's kinda funny in a way, I am sure we have all been told how important " saving face" is to Thai people, but with all the things going on in this country at the moment, Thailand as a country has lost face in the eyes of the world.

[ruskiehat]

I often wonder how many on this forum that attack the red shirts so vehemently have really tried understand the views of rural people ?

Seeing that majority (not all) of expats are based in and around big cities, I would say most would have very little understanding of rural life of the people there, apart from the times they had to transfer money for broken buffalo or sick aunty etc.

[ruskiehat]

Civil War comes to Thailand..?? Brilliant. Another simply EXCELLENT way to highlight the country around the world!

Bye-bye tourists for another season..!!!

R.I.P Thailand

Paramilitary are illegal!

Shove them in the slow house, until the trial in 2 - 3 years!

This is the best way to keep the tourists away.

Very good for the economy.

I really dont think the basic Thai's living out in Isarn working from sunrise to sunset out in his farm gives a flying shit about how comfortable a farang is sitting at his pool. A vast majority of them out there are genuinely pissed off by being disenfranchised from the wealth that is being created and kept by a few in Thailand. Pure and simple.

The reason they voted for Thaksin even with all his faults was because he was the 1st to stand up for them, even though most regard him as corrupt, but they regard all of governing figures to be corrupt. However will side with the ones which are going to help the basic man on the street, who's basic day to day life has not improved. This country is too divided right now between those who live off others and those who work.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Civil War comes to Thailand..?? Brilliant. Another simply EXCELLENT way to highlight the country around the world!

Bye-bye tourists for another season..!!!

R.I.P Thailand

Paramilitary are illegal!

Shove them in the slow house, until the trial in 2 - 3 years!

This is the best way to keep the tourists away.

Very good for the economy.

I really dont think the basic Thai's living out in Isarn working from sunrise to sunset out in his farm gives a flying shit about how comfortable a farang is sitting at his pool. A vast majority of them out there are genuinely pissed off by being disenfranchised from the wealth that is being created and kept by a few in Thailand. Pure and simple.

The reason they voted for Thaksin even with all his faults was because he was the 1st to stand up for them, even though most regard him as corrupt, but they regard all of governing figures to be corrupt. However will side with the ones which are going to help the basic man on the street, who's basic day to day life has not improved. This country is too divided right now between those who live off others and those who work.

Spot on!

[capt_canada42]

Dangerous guy the government needs to remove him as fast as possible if he goes underground there will be big trouble.

[rixalex]

I really dont think the basic Thai's living out in Isarn working from sunrise to sunset out in his farm gives a flying shit about how comfortable a farang is sitting at his pool.

They were being asked to?

Truth is, no Thai, whether that be a rich city banker or a humble rural farmer, has to in any way give a "flying shit" about what any foreigner thinks or feels. Maybe i'm just lucky. The ones i meet do.

[jontom]

Civil War comes to Thailand..?? Brilliant. Another simply EXCELLENT way to highlight the country around the world!

Bye-bye tourists for another season..!!!

R.I.P Thailand

Paramilitary are illegal!

Shove them in the slow house, until the trial in 2 - 3 years!

This is the best way to keep the tourists away.

Very good for the economy.

I really dont think the basic Thai's living out in Isarn working from sunrise to sunset out in his farm gives a flying shit about how comfortable a farang is sitting at his pool. A vast majority of them out there are genuinely pissed off by being disenfranchised from the wealth that is being created and kept by a few in Thailand. Pure and simple.

The reason they voted for Thaksin even with all his faults was because he was the 1st to stand up for them, even though most regard him as corrupt, but they regard all of governing figures to be corrupt. However will side with the ones which are going to help the basic man on the street, who's basic day to day life has not improved. This country is too divided right now between those who live off others and those who work.

Spot on!

Correct! It amazes me how so many posters are anti Thaksin but cant understand why he is so popular in rural Thailand, and before saying (again!) he bought them all, do the maths he didnt have enough money to buy off millions of people. He gave the poor man hope and thats what frightens the elite.

[ruskiehat]

I really dont think the basic Thai's living out in Isarn working from sunrise to sunset out in his farm gives a flying shit about how comfortable a farang is sitting at his pool.

They were being asked to?

Truth is, no Thai, whether that be a rich city banker or a humble rural farmer, has to in any way give a "flying shit" about what any foreigner thinks or feels. Maybe i'm just lucky. The ones i meet do.

My quote was not intended to be directed personally but as a general view from those in this country who have had little if no contact with a farang and belive me there's quite a lot of them. However like you say, it's like anyone who has a one on one relationship or friendship with another race or nationality views on that race and nationality will change.

[Samuian]

Correct! It amazes me how so many posters are anti Thaksin but cant understand why he is so popular in rural Thailand, and before saying (again!) he bought them all, do the maths he didnt have enough money to buy off millions of people. He gave the poor man hope and thats what frightens the elite.

Where is the the evidence that proves undoubtedly, that this, what is claimed by his supporters is true?

"The people of Isaan" and of any other village in this country, elect those which their "Puu Yai", the village headman, will promote!

The PM ISN'T elected "by the people", he doesn't even need to be known, as he is elected by the MP's!

Stop this PR nonsense!

There is not such a thing like "innocent fugitive" trying very hard to unsettle an entire nation, doing much harm to it - how he can "love" this country?

Or is it just for his "life savngs" - though he claims it isn't his money - but his children's...

It's utter nonsense, never proven, like the 7/7 ripple effect conspiracy nonsense!

Edited January 24, 2010 by Samuian

[rixalex]

It amazes me how so many posters are anti Thaksin but cant understand why he is so popular in rural Thailand,

Why Thaksin was/is popular in rural Thailand is no secret.

do the maths he didnt have enough money to buy off millions of people.

Actually he did, but it wasn't his money he used to win the votes.

He gave the poor man hope and thats what frightens the elite.

Yes i believe he did.

As for what frightens the elite, Thaksin is himself about as elite as you can possibly get.

[groovyc]

Many would dispute your claim the coup was welcomed by most Thais, but in any case it's completely irrelevant whether it was welcomed or not.

Your second assertion is even more absurd.Again whether the coup was violent or not is irrelevant (although the threat of violence is always implicit).The question is whether the government overthrown by the junta was constitutionally legitimate or not, not whether it was led by a "corrupt dictator" in your usage or the nation's saviour as many others would have it.As a matter of fact in an assessment of Thaksin, I lean more towards your description but again that's completely irrelevant.

The fact that these criminals in a panicky and cowardly way procured post facto pardons for themselves demonstrates that they at least knew very clearly they had committed treason.

Thanks for bringing in some sense. btw, I just want to clear a little lapse in my understanding regarding the coup.

How and in what (legal) means did the army "procure post facto pardons" for treason?

Is the King's "acceptance" of the situation amount to a legal pardon?

[selftaopath]

Treason.

Firing squad.

End of.

AGREE

[plaaduk]

This is another of many strategies to bring pressure to bear on the Government to destabalise it, which can be the only reason for announcing the intent. Otherwise it would have been kept a close guarded secret until the attack is launched, thereby maintaining the element of surprise. If the former is the casde perhaps "The General (on behalf of Tacki)" is not quite the psycho we think, although he is exposing himself to some fairly serious criminal charges.

Spot on! And who are the puppet masters?

[Thai at Heart]

As for what frightens the elite, Thaksin is himself about as elite as you can possibly get.

He's nouvean riche, he isn't elite. He's the country boy bought his way to the top table, but doesn't know which knife or fork to eat with. He was a policeman for god sake and his dad sold silk and had a Merc francise. How low can you go in the pecking order of this country.

Massive massive difference.

[maithing]

big words, nothing wil happen