Militants May Join Thailand Insurgency

[meemiathai]

I hate muslims like they hate the rest of the world.

What's wrong admitting that?

That's just inherently wrong then isn't it, completely wrong because your underlying reason for hating Muslims is such in an incorrect generalisation.

I am a Muslim and I don't hate the rest of the World, if there's anyone I don't "like" I would say that I actually feel sorry for them and pray for them like a Muslim should. I wouldn't strap a bomb up my arse and sit next to anyone on a bus and blow myself up if I didn't like them. How's that?

You are one good muslim I don't hate then.

[zaz]

Thanks m!!

But really I have more love for people than hate even when they throw sh1t in my face - wouldn't it be a nicer world if we could try to better ourselves first?!

Well done to everyone in contributing to this debate, let's keep it clean, to the point, lighthearted and not take anything personal.

[ray23]

I hate muslims like they hate the rest of the world.

What's wrong admitting that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just inherently wrong then isn't it, completely wrong because your underlying reason for hating Muslims is such in an incorrect generalisation.

I am a Muslim and I don't hate the rest of the World, if there's anyone I don't "like" I would say that I actually feel sorry for them and pray for them like a Muslim should. I wouldn't strap a bomb up my arse and sit next to anyone on a bus and blow myself up if I didn't like them. How's that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zaz you have absolutley nothing to aplogize for, your just human like the rest of us. Hurt no, I'm used to it by now being an American. It seems to me that once two reasonable persons get together they find a way to communicate and the things that seemed so terrible before tend to go away.

I would I believe I would enjoy a cup of coffee with you some time, but I will pass on the tea umless off course it is ice tea

Edited September 30, 2005 by ray23

[zaz]

Thanks ray, I'm a coffee guy myself, iced or hot would be great!!

[meemiathai]

- wouldn't it be a nicer world if we could try to better ourselves first?!

I agree. The problem is in reality more people than not try to take advantage of you for being nice. You don't see a lot of nice people around, do you?

But really I have more love for people than hate even when they throw sh1t in my face

That's very nice of you. But there is a limit, isn't it?

[zaz]

You're right m. However, I always try to let the better side of me rub off onto people for the better and yes there is a limit to how much a person can take. Patience and tolerance are difficult to exersice but very good qualities that we can all benefit from and achieve inner peace - when we have peace within ourselves we most certainly have peace with others around us.

[smb]

i think the main problem is that most people think islam is the religion of hate.

Say, "O followers of the scripture, let us come to a

logical agreement between us and you: that we shall not

worship except GOD; that we never set up any idols

besides Him, nor set up any human beings as lords beside

GOD." If they turn away, say, "Bear witness that we are submitters."

[3:64]

Islam (Submission), has been accused unjustly of being a religion of hate by those who never made a true effort to understand even the basic teachings of Islam. We all know that ignorance is the worst enemy of the truth, and God Almighty asked us to learn the truth as there is nothing after the truth except falsehood.

[Quran 10:32] Such is GOD, your rightful Lord. What is there after the truth, EXCEPT FALSEHOOD? How could you disregard all this?

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Let us present the simple truth about Islam (submission) and the Quran that proves that Islam is not a religion of hate but rather a religion of love, tolerance, understanding, and social justice.

Many people are not aware that Islam is the religion of Abraham, not the religion of Muhammad. Abraham, being the founder of Islam (Submission), with all its beautiful and peaceful teachings and rituals, passed his religion to all the prophets who came after him, including all the Jewish prophets, Jesus and Muhammad. Those attacking Islam, out of ignorance, or deliberately, are attacking Abraham who is their prophet as much as the prophet of the Muslims (Submitters).

Quran explains clearly this fact,

" You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Submitters" originally. ………" [22:78]

"Abraham was neither Jewish , nor Christian; he was a monotheist; a Muslim; he never was an idol-worshiper. The people most worthy of following Abraham are those who follow him and this prophet (Muhammed), and those who believed. God is the Lord of the believers." 3:67-68

"Then we inspired you (O Muhammed) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." 16:123

In that simple sense , how can Islam which is the religion of Abraham promote hate when it is the same religion passed down to the Jews and Christians before reaching Muhammad. How can the Jews and Christians claim different standard when we are talking about the same religion with different names but all go back to Abraham.

Quran, the final Testament , made a special mention of the relationship that controls the social and daily life with other people including but not limited to Jews and Christians. In it Quran urges the Muslims to be loving, caring, friendly, patient, tolerant, advocates of freedom, democracy, and social justice. Islam never advocated hate or promoted it. People who promote hate, do so on their own terms and misunderstanding. By doing so they do not represent Islam (Submission) or the teachings of God in the scripture. Quran urges the believers to;

[7:199] You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

[42:38] ......... Their affairs are decided after due CONSULTATION among themselves, and from our provisions to them they give (to charity).

The following verses will shatter completely all the lies about Islam (Submission) advocating or promoting hate. It shows total respect to people from different religions and backgrounds.

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

Basic Law Regulating Relations With Unbelievers

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

Verse 5:82 is an important verse to mention and clarify. In verse 5:82, God states a fact about the true nature of the relationship of Muslims (submitters) , the Jews and Christians in our life. A fact we all can witness daily on our news. God does not mention that as an order or as a law but as a fact of life.God is all Knower Cognizant.

[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and MONKS among them, and they are not arrogant.

Some Muslims, including some scholars, however do not understand that fact and abuse this verse to preach their own personal hate to all the Jews, not realizing that the verse does not call for that but rather states the facts. This does not represent what Islam (Submission) or Quran teaches. On the contrary, God is teaching us in the Quran, that there are righteous Jews, and Christians who stand for the truth and support God and His scripture.

Here are some of the verses that show that not all the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians and Muslims) are the same ;

[ 3:113] They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

[ 3:114] They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

[ 3:115] Any good they do will not go unrewarded. GOD is fully aware of the righteous.

[3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

See also (Quran 2:62, 5:69)

We need to remember that hate is a man made crime, that we should not blame on religion. Any claim of hate in a religion is no more than man made innovation that has nothing to do with God or His scripture. Planting hate only produces hate. Planting love, will produce love. Our God is Almighty, all loving.

Let me give one example. How many people who watch the unjust treatment of the Palestinians, their murder, oppression, torture, destruction of their homes and land by the Israelis will develop HATE to this aggressing inhuman force that made it their job to destroy a nation longing to live in peace. ? It is HATE resulting from HATE crimes against humanity, not against a Jew or a Chrisian or any othre ethnic group. If these groups change their behaviour they will not need to complain about HATE and may start a peace process that saves both nations from destroying each other.

If we understand that, we will know where the HATE comes from, and we can confirm that those who scream, HATE are usually the ones who planted it, not the religion or the followers of the right religion. I pray to God to enlighten everyone by the truth and to guide everyone to understand where HATE comes from.

[richard10365]

i think the main problem is that most people think islam is the religion of hate.

Say, "O followers of the scripture,........................................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey smb....I'm with you brother! Now we just have to send someone to south to preach the gospel of Abraham. I guess they have a different version of the Koran than you. Maybe we should send some Muslim missionaries down south preaching this because they obviously don't know (or they don't care).

Maybe thats the key. Christians have the pope to point them in the right direction. Who do the muslims have? Perhaps the Muslims of the world need a spiritual leader to guide them through this difficult time.

Or do they elect someone locally who says he represents God? If so, based on what some Muslim religious leaders have done in the name of Allah, he should have a back ground check. Make sure he is not some nutcase with some personal vendetta against whoever.

Islam may be a good religion like SMB says but I still think they need someone wise at the top to keep the crazies in check.

[zaz]

Minus the sarcasm I agree - the Muslims in the South do need guidance and the correct guidance to. Maybe power andpolitics gets in the head too much for some people.

[smb]

i think the main problem is that most people think islam is the religion of hate.

Say, "O followers of the scripture,........................................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey smb....I'm with you brother! Now we just have to send someone to south to preach the gospel of Abraham. I guess they have a different version of the Koran than you. Maybe we should send some Muslim missionaries down south preaching this because they obviously don't know (or they don't care).

Maybe thats the key. Christians have the pope to point them in the right direction. Who do the muslims have? Perhaps the Muslims of the world need a spiritual leader to guide them through this difficult time.

Or do they elect someone locally who says he represents God? If so, based on what some Muslim religious leaders have done in the name of Allah, he should have a back ground check. Make sure he is not some nutcase with some personal vendetta against whoever.

Islam may be a good religion like SMB says but I still think they need someone wise at the top to keep the crazies in check.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there is only one version of the Koran.muslims have the imam and the imam is being followed by muslims.the problem is terrorists do not follow the imam and they still call them selves muslims.

so they are only covering up their acts by religon and from what i posted is a living proof that islam has nothing incommon with them.

and most extremists from both sides take half of a sentnce from the qauran and translate it

for example

“...slay (enemies] wherever you find them!" -- (4: 89).

This line does look extremely violent. It is difficult to imagine a viable explanation for such a statement. Indeed, can there even be such a justification? Well, let us take a look at the following line:

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.” -- (4: 90).

The idea that this is “proof” that Islam is violent then is preposterous. The second line is crucial to the message of the text; even in times of war, soldiers must observe the laws of compassion and reason as dictated by the Qu’ran.

so they do not come across these lines in their search for the truth.ior for search to misslead others.

this is what are true muslims belive in.anything other than this is not islamic

acually a muslim is not called a muslim unless he beleives in jesus and moses.

i hope this answers all your questions

[seonai]

Hi SBM and others, Thanks for the insights into the Koran, my translation is more or less the same. Can I tell you guys something.......? Where I live (not sure about the 'deep' south) it is 99.99% Muslim BUT most people on the island have absolutely NO idea what the Qur'an says. ALL of them can recite it in Arabic, perhaps believing in it through 'blind' faith. But very few can understand it. A Thai 'devout' Muslim here recently asked me to explain it to her when I had finished reading the Qur'an. I feel sad to tell this but it may be the cause of most of the problems. As with most religions - the majority of the general public have little understanding.

Seonai

[smb]

Hi SBM and others, Thanks for the insights into the Koran, my translation is more or less the same. Can I tell you guys something.......? Where I live (not sure about the 'deep' south) it is 99.99% Muslim BUT most people on the island have absolutely NO idea what the Qur'an says. ALL of them can recite it in Arabic, perhaps believing in it through 'blind' faith. But very few can understand it. A Thai 'devout' Muslim here recently asked me to explain it to her when I had finished reading the Qur'an. I feel sad to tell this but it may be the cause of most of the problems. As with most religions - the majority of the general public have little understanding.

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes the problem is in us humans not the religion.most translate the words how they wish,others read what they want and leave the rest.

Every thing in life work in a systematic movment.the moon the sun the day the night even animals travel from on place to another in a certain time of the year. We humans are the only living creature who have a choice to live with that movement or not.

God has given us the guide to follow that, if we follow it nothing will go wrong and we will live in peace and when we don’t we will face problems in all ways.

Look around u and see. When we are careless to the nature for example the temperature of the earth became higher than normal and we suffer. Hurricanes hit stronger than normal all of this is not a normal thing. It’s the cause of our wrong acts.

The same thing with treating other humans. We have to stick to the rules of life that god told us about. After all no one knows humans and the hole universe more than the one who made it himself (god)

Edited September 30, 2005 by smb

[richard10365]

I think Seonai may be right. Perhaps the answer to the problem in the Thai south is a proper education on Islam.

Perhaps if Thailand was to fund a proper Thai education for Muslims in the south, Southern Thai Muslims would see this as a sign of peace. At the same time, Thai politicians attend a course on Islamic culture. It may not be the final solution but it might be a step in the right direction.

Now all we have to do is get this information to the prime minister.

[richb2004]

and richb2004

u cant judge a book from the first two pages

i bet u havent read the quran that why your saying this

did u read the part wher it says u are not allowed to break a tree in a war????

I don’t recall reading that. Where is that in the Quran? Surely if you can kill unbelievers you can break a tree. Or are we talking Muslim trees versus non-Muslim trees?

Your right I haven’t yet read the complete Quran. I have got as far as around page 250 of the 400 odd pages. It’s quite consistent in its content and references. I really don’t see it taking a drastic change in the last 200 pages. So far I have gained nothing from it. The book dogmatically enforces the following of Allah and Mohammed. This is done over and over on every single page with the threat of burning for an eternity in ######. It is written in the style of a paranoid schizophrenic. The main message is complete and utter violent condemnation of all who refuse to follow its preaching’s. There are positives, such as Zakah (giving to charity) and kindness to ones parents and recommending that we do not bury our daughters alive, but this is far, far outweighed by the serious negatives. As with all religions the only reason people follow them is because their parents did so before them. This combined with the enforced teachings in Islamic culture are the only reason that one follows one religion and not another.

Quran 2: The Cow.

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

2:161 Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined.

2:162 They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved.

War! It’s good for you.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

I won’t go on.

Actually I seriously doubt that many Muslims have actually read the Quran from front to back or back to front, as it may be. I have quizzed many Muslims on the Quran and have never had an answer that didn’t require over night thought. I know that they read it fanatically, but I think they only read designated extracts and not the whole thing.

I have had to copy these eloquent extracts from the net, as I have left my beloved Quran at work. You can brush up on your chapter and verse at this site. It is a relatively unbiased site. It highlights the good as well as the bad.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran

[zaz]

Hi SBM and others, Thanks for the insights into the Koran, my translation is more or less the same. Can I tell you guys something.......? Where I live (not sure about the 'deep' south) it is 99.99% Muslim BUT most people on the island have absolutely NO idea what the Qur'an says. ALL of them can recite it in Arabic, perhaps believing in it through 'blind' faith. But very few can understand it. A Thai 'devout' Muslim here recently asked me to explain it to her when I had finished reading the Qur'an. I feel sad to tell this but it may be the cause of most of the problems. As with most religions - the majority of the general public have little understanding.

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This situation is a very tragic one indeed but unfortuntely one that is prevalent in many parts of the world and hence why Muslims have gone astray from what they should be. I wish I could help, pehaps one day soon I may come and see what I can do, but far from being any example of a Muslim I still feel sad.

[smb]

and richb2004

u cant judge a book from the first two pages

i bet u havent read the quran that why your saying this

did u read the part wher it says u are not allowed to break a tree in a war????

I don’t recall reading that. Where is that in the Quran? Surely if you can kill unbelievers you can break a tree. Or are we talking Muslim trees versus non-Muslim trees?

Your right I haven’t yet read the complete Quran. I have got as far as around page 250 of the 400 odd pages. It’s quite consistent in its content and references. I really don’t see it taking a drastic change in the last 200 pages. So far I have gained nothing from it. The book dogmatically enforces the following of Allah and Mohammed. This is done over and over on every single page with the threat of burning for an eternity in ######. It is written in the style of a paranoid schizophrenic. The main message is complete and utter violent condemnation of all who refuse to follow its preaching’s. There are positives, such as Zakah (giving to charity) and kindness to ones parents and recommending that we do not bury our daughters alive, but this is far, far outweighed by the serious negatives. As with all religions the only reason people follow them is because their parents did so before them. This combined with the enforced teachings in Islamic culture are the only reason that one follows one religion and not another.

Quran 2: The Cow.

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein. 

2:161 Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined.

2:162 They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved.

War! It’s good for you.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

I won’t go on.

Actually I seriously doubt that many Muslims have actually read the Quran from front to back or back to front, as it may be. I have quizzed many Muslims on the Quran and have never had an answer that didn’t require over night thought. I know that they read it fanatically, but I think they only read designated extracts and not the whole thing.

I have had to copy these eloquent extracts from the net, as I have left my beloved Quran at work. You can brush up on your chapter and verse at this site. It is a relatively unbiased site. It highlights the good as well as the bad.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

u said that u have read 200 pages and u didnt even read what i have posted.

what i have posted are from the same book that u said mostly talks about war!!!!!!!!!!!!

let me ask you

u at work if u dont do your job and come to work late,what will the manager do to u?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will he give u a bonus???????????????

Islam and the Qu'ran: a Religion of Hate?

Over the last few months, neoconservatives and Christian leaders have banded together in an attempt to mar the value systems defined by Islamic ideology and to present Islam to America as a violent, bloodthirsty religion that demands the subversion of the world, or its death. Islam has been decried by many a pastor and priest as a “religion of hate” and a “culture of intolerance.” Neoconservatives claim that Islamic ideology is so foreign and fundamentally different from Western ideology that overlap or mutual understanding is impossible. After all, they reason, how can America come to terms with a society that sends its children to die in the name of God, or a faith that demands its adherent to kill all infidels if they refuse to covert to Islam?

When I first heard these comments, I laughed. I laughed at the sheer stupidity of the people that would suggest such patently false ideas. I laughed at what I thought were their pathetic attempts to wage a propaganda and misinformation war against Muslims in America in an attempt to vilify and marginalize them. After all, what kind of dupe would believe the ridiculous lies they were spreading? Anyone could pick up a book or talk to a Muslim and find out the truth.

Well, I am not laughing anymore.

A lot of thought has gone into planning the war for America’s opinion. The misinformation war that the neoconservatives and Christian right have launched is from two fronts. First, Christian leaders take specific quotes out of the Qu’ran (or Koran), the Muslim holy book, in an attempt to depict Islam as a fundamentally violent faith, as defined by its basic ideology. They are particularly interested in presenting the idea of jihad as a call to war, knowing that this is completely false and that Muslims cannot reject jihad, as it is a central theme in Islam. Secondly, the public opinion spin doctors use misunderstood or poorly documented dogmas in Islam and present them as proof that Islam has a carnal and perverted moral code.

As both of these topics are extremely diverse and complex, I will attempt to answer them in two successive columns.

It seems to me that no matter how loudly we protest that Islam is not a religion of violence, conservative Christians are not willing to listen. They point out specific passages in the Qu’ran that demand Muslims to go to war against the infidels, or to kill the unbelievers wherever we should find them. Passage after passage is recited or detailed with exacting patience and precision; passages that deal with war, death, and punishment. Why is Islam so violent? Why does it demand so much bloodshed and death? Why does Allah command that Muslims kill Christians, Jews, and anyone else who does not convert to Islam?

It is thus with great irony that I would ask the same question of the Christian world. Why does the Biblical God demand the death of enemies or the seemingly brutal subjugation of women?

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . . -- Ex. 21:22-25

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." -- Genesis 3:16

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." --1 Tim. 2:11-14

In fact, it seems to me that the Bible demands the murder of children!

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." --Psalm 137:9

“… slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.” -- I Samuel 15:3

”… dash their children, and rip up their women with child.” -- 2 Kings 8:12

Of course, the intent here is to illustrate that any quote that is taken out of context can be made to fit the crime. It is not difficult to selectively provide quotes that incriminate or condemn. For instance, take a commonly used quote from the Qu’ran that is used as proof that it is violent:

“...slay (enemies] wherever you find them!" -- (4: 89).

This line does look extremely violent. It is difficult to imagine a viable explanation for such a statement. Indeed, can there even be such a justification? Well, let us take a look at the following line:

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.” -- (4: 90).

The idea that this is “proof” that Islam is violent then is preposterous. The second line is crucial to the message of the text; even in times of war, soldiers must observe the laws of compassion and reason as dictated by the Qu’ran. One wonders why pundits like Jerry Falwell and Ann Coulter do not come across these lines in their search for the truth:

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." – (2:190)

Do not "take life -- which God has made sacred -- except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority" to demand justice for the death or to forgive it. "But let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped [by the Law]." -- Surah 17

One other ideological process neoconservatives have committed themselves to is the attempt to malign the intent of jihad. Western media have picked up their cry of jihad as “holy war,” which is in fact a western adaptation, reminiscent of crusader mentality used against Muslims during the Church’s holy war against Islam. There is no term for “holy war” in Arabic. The word jihad translates to “struggle.” It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level: personal and social, as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad (s.a.w.) telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad,' the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart. Indeed, although jihad can be a struggle to protect the weak or to free the oppressed, a greater jihad is that of one’s own desires; the jihad for spiritual cleanliness and the application of the laws of God into one’s own life. This includes telling the truth, providing for the destitute and the hungry, and the control of carnal desires like gluttony and sleep. Although jihad can be used to defend one’s person, property, or community, it is not some rallying call to arms in an attempt to advocate violence as a way of life or to suggest that all infidels should be put to the sword.

It is clear then that the use of selective quotes out of the Qu’ran is merely an attempt at the legitimization of the false claim that Islam is violent. Indeed, by the examples referenced above, it is unmistakable that neoconservatives are relying on misinformation and lies to propagate their vicious slander. Their attempt to vilify jihad is similar in its intent, if not its process. What could be more in sync with American ideals of honor, self-sacrifice, and courage in the face of adversity? Jihad is not an Islamic invention; it is a global definition of valor and a demand for personal excellence.

It is all the more wretched that these lies are told by men and women that claim to represent the leadership of their faith. If this is what Christianity is, then I am glad that I am Muslim. Now it is time to determine if these leaders represent the exception or the rule. Do these leaders espouse what is commonly believed by the practitioners of their faith, representative of a majority of Christians that would like to see pluralism and interfaith communication perish? Or are these pundits on the leading edge of extremism, delegates of the few fanatics that Christianity generally rejects? From what I see in the media, I am fearful that it is the former

http://www.proislam.com/column_quran_violent.htm

[richb2004]

Hi SBM and others, Thanks for the insights into the Koran, my translation is more or less the same. Can I tell you guys something.......? Where I live (not sure about the 'deep' south) it is 99.99% Muslim BUT most people on the island have absolutely NO idea what the Qur'an says. ALL of them can recite it in Arabic, perhaps believing in it through 'blind' faith. But very few can understand it. A Thai 'devout' Muslim here recently asked me to explain it to her when I had finished reading the Qur'an. I feel sad to tell this but it may be the cause of most of the problems. As with most religions - the majority of the general public have little understanding.

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never read this. It seems I could be right. I ask the Muslims a question about the Quran that I already know the answer to. They look confused and go away to seek help from the Mullah. Next day they come back with some sort of answer, often ridiculous depending on the question.

I feel better about that. You learn something every day.

[zaz]

rich - simply by reading the Quran one cannot understand it, even with a literally translated version. It's language is too complicated to derive your own perceptions of what it actual says. It is advised that the Quran is read and understood along with the guidance of knowledgable people such as the Ulama.

e.g. if I wanted to become a brain surgeon would it be sufficient for me to read a few books on brain surgery and be successful? If I wanted to learn how to drive would it be sufficient for me to read a few books and then get straight into a car and drive away successfully? Of course not. I would need the guidance and teaching from someone who knows these things already. The same is of Islam. There are countless books on Islam, the Hadith and the Quran but you simply cannot read these and say that you understand or know about Islam.

[zaz]

I feel better about that. You learn something every day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You feel better about the downfalls of these people.....? Pehaps if you expressed concern rather than feel smug knowing that your conclusion was correct would be a better thing...

Edited September 30, 2005 by zaz

[smb]

and richb2004

u cant judge a book from the first two pages

i bet u havent read the quran that why your saying this

did u read the part wher it says u are not allowed to break a tree in a war????

I don’t recall reading that. Where is that in the Quran? Surely if you can kill unbelievers you can break a tree. Or are we talking Muslim trees versus non-Muslim trees?

Your right I haven’t yet read the complete Quran. I have got as far as around page 250 of the 400 odd pages. It’s quite consistent in its content and references. I really don’t see it taking a drastic change in the last 200 pages. So far I have gained nothing from it. The book dogmatically enforces the following of Allah and Mohammed. This is done over and over on every single page with the threat of burning for an eternity in ######. It is written in the style of a paranoid schizophrenic. The main message is complete and utter violent condemnation of all who refuse to follow its preaching’s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

here read this and see

but remember this was written over one thousand years ago

THE BIRTH OF A HUMAN BEING

Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an in the course of inviting people to believe. Sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants are shown as evidence to man by God. In many of the verses, people are called upon to turn their attention to their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:

(It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator?) (The Qur'an, 56:57-59)

The creation of man, and the miraculous aspect of this, is stressed in many other verses. Some items of information within these verses are so detailed that it is impossible for anyone living in the 7th century to have known them. Some of these are as follows:

. Man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).

2. It is the male that determines the sex of the baby.

3. The human embryo adheres to the mother's uterus like a leech.

4. The embryo develops in three dark regions in the uterus.

People living when the Qur'an was revealed, to be sure, knew that the basic substance of birth was related to the semen of the male emitted during sexual intercourse. And the fact that the baby was born after a nine-month period was obviously an observable event not calling for any further investigation. However, the items of information just quoted were far above the level of learning of the people living at that time. These were verified by 20th century science.

Now, let us go over them one by one.

A Drop of Semen

During sexual intercourse, 250 million sperms are emitted from the male at a time. The sperms undertake an arduous journey in the mother's body until they make it to the ovum. Only a thousand out of 250 million sperms succeed in reaching the ovum. At the end of this five-minute race, the ovum, half the size of a grain of salt, will let only one of the sperms in. That is, the essence of man is not the whole semen, but only a small part of it. This is explained in the Qur'an:

( Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled (without purpose)? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen? ) (The Qur'an, 75:36-37)

As we have seen, the Qur'an informs us that man is made not from the entire semen, but only a small part of it. That the particular emphasis in this statement announces a fact only discovered by modern science is evidence that the statement is divine in origin.

The Mixture in the Semen

The fluid called semen, which contains the sperms, does not consist of sperms alone. On the contrary, it is made up of a mixture of different fluids. These fluids have different functions, such as containing the sugar necessary for providing energy for the sperms, neutralising the acids at the entrance of the uterus, and creating a slippery environment for the easy movement of the sperms.

Interestingly enough, when semen is mentioned in the Qur'an, this fact, which was discovered by modern science, is also referred to, and semen is defined as a mixed fluid:

(We created man from a mingled drop to test him, and We made him hearing and seeing.) (The Qur'an, 76:2)

In another verse, semen is again referred to as a mixture, and it is stressed that man is created from the "extract" of this mixture:

(He who has created all things in the best possible way. He commenced the creation of man from clay; then He made his progeny from an extract of discarded fluid.) (The Qur'an, 32:7-8)

The Arabic word "sulala", translated as "extract", means the essential or best part of something. By either implication, it means "part of a whole". This shows that the Qur'an is the word of a Will that knows the creation of man down to its slightest detail. This Will is God, the Creator of man.

The Sex of the Baby

Until fairly recently, it was thought that a baby's sex was determined by the mother's cells. Or at least, it was believed that the sex was determined by the male and female cells together. But we are given different information in the Qur'an, where it is stated that masculinity or femininity is created out of "a drop of sperm which has been ejected".

(He has created both sexes, male and female from a drop of semen which has been ejected.) (The Qur'an, 53:45-46)

The developing disciplines of genetics and molecular biology have scientifically validated the accuracy of this information given by the Qur'an. It is now understood that sex is determined by the sperm cells from the male, and that the female has no role in this process.

Chromosomes are the main elements in determining sex. Two of the 46 chromosomes that determine the structure of a human being are identified as the sex chromosomes. These two chromosomes are called "XY" in males, and "XX" in females, because the shapes of the chromosomes resemble these letters. The Y chromosome carries the genes that code for masculinity, while the X chromosome carries the genes that code for femininity.

The formation of a new human being begins with the cross combination of one of these chromosomes, which exist in males and females in pairs. In females, both components of the sex cell, which divides into two during ovulation, carry X chromosomes. The sex cell of a male, on the other hand, produces two different kinds of sperm, one that contains X chromosomes and the other Y chromosomes. If an X chromosome from the female unites with a sperm that contains an X chromosome, then the baby is female. If it unites with the sperm that contains a Y chromosome, the baby is male.

In other words, a baby's sex is determined by which chromosome from the male unites with the female's ovum.

None of this was known until the discovery of genetics in the 20th century. Indeed, in many cultures, it was believed that a baby's sex was determined by the female's body. That was why women were blamed when they gave birth to girls.

Thirteen centuries before human genes were discovered, however, the Qur'an revealed information that denies this superstition, and referred to the origin of sex lying not with women, but with the semen coming from men.

The Clot Clinging to the Uterus

If we keep on examining the facts announced to us in the Qur'an about the formation of human beings, we again encounter some very important scientific miracles.

When the sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly start to reproduce by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh" called an embryo. This of course can only be seen by human beings with the aid of a microscope.

uterus just like roots that are firmly fixed to the earth by their tendrils. Through this bond, the embryo can obtain the substances essential to its development from the mother's body.(1)

Here, at this point, a very significant miracle of the Qur'an is revealed. While referring to the embryo developing in the mother's womb, God uses the word "alaq" in the Qur'an:

(Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from alaq. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Generous.) (The Qur'an, 96:1-3)

The meaning of the word "alaq" in Arabic is "a thing that clings to some place". The word is literally used to describe leeches that cling to a body to suck blood.

Certainly, the use of such an appropriate word for the embryo developing in the mother's womb, proves once again that the Qur'an is a revelation from God, the Lord of all the Worlds

The wrapping of muscles over the bones

Another important aspect of the information given in the verses of the Qur'an is the developmental stages of a human being in the mother's womb. It is stated in the verses that in the mother's womb, the bones develop first, and then the muscles form which wrap around them

((We) then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be God, the Best of Creators!) (The Qur'an, 23:14)

Embryology is the branch of science that studies the development of the embryo in the mother's womb. Until very recently, embryologists assumed that the bones and muscles in an embryo developed at the same time. For this reason, for a long time, some people claimed that these verses conflicted with science. Yet, advanced microscopic research conducted by virtue of new technological developments has revealed that the revelation of the Qur'an is word for word correct.

These observations at the microscopic level showed that the development inside the mother's womb takes place in just the way it is described in the verses. First, the cartilage tissue of the embryo ossifies. Then muscular cells that are selected from amongst the tissue around the bones come together and wrap around the bones

This event is described in a scientific publication titled Developing Human in the following words:

During the seventh week, the skeleton begins to spread throughout the body and the bones take their familiar shapes. At the end of the seventh week and during the eighth week the muscles take their positions around the bone forms.(1)

In short, man's developmental stages as described in the Qur'an are in perfect harmony with the findings of modern embryology.

Three Stages of the Baby in the Womb

In the Qur'an, it is related that man is created in a three-stage process in the mother's womb.

(... He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is God, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate?) (The Qur'an, 39:6)

As will be understood, it is pointed out in this verse that a human being is created in the mother's womb in three distinct stages. Indeed, modern biology has revealed that the baby's embryological development takes place in three distinct regions in the mother's womb. Today, in all the embryology textbooks studied in faculties of medicine, this subject is taken as an element of basic knowledge. For instance in Basic Human Embryology, a fundamental reference text in the field of embryology, this fact is stated as follows: "The life in the uterus has three stages: pre-embryonic; first two and a half weeks, embryonic; until the end of the eight week, and fetal; from the eight week to labor." (1)

These phases refer to the different developmental stages of a baby. In brief, the main characteristics of these developmental stages are as follows:

- Pre-embryonic stage : In this first phase, the zygote grows by division, and when it becomes a cell cluster, it buries itself in the wall of the uterus. While they continue growing, the cells organise themselves in three layers.

- Embryonic Stage : The second phase lasts for five and a half weeks, during which the baby is called an "embryo". In this stage, the basic organs and systems of the body start to appear from the cell layers.

- Fetal stage : From this stage on, the embryo is called a "foetus". This phase begins at the eighth week of gestation and lasts until the moment of birth. The distinctive characteristic of this stage is that the foetus looks just like a human being, with its face, hands and feet. Although it is only 3 cm. long initially, all of its organs have become apparent. This phase lasts for about 30 weeks, and development continues until the week of delivery.

Information on the development in the mother's womb became available only after observations with modern devices. Yet, just like many other scientific facts, these pieces of information are imparted in the verses of the Qur'an in a miraculous way. The fact that such detailed and accurate information was given in the Qur'an at a time when people had scarce information on medical matters is clear evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of man, but the word of God

THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE FROM THE QUR'AN

and if u want to know more i think you should open your eyes and brains while reading not only the qur'an but any book

here this is a usfull website

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/index.php

[ray23]

and richb2004

u cant judge a book from the first two pages

i bet u havent read the quran that why your saying this

did u read the part wher it says u are not allowed to break a tree in a war????

I don’t recall reading that. Where is that in the Quran? Surely if you can kill unbelievers you can break a tree. Or are we talking Muslim trees versus non-Muslim trees?

Your right I haven’t yet read the complete Quran. I have got as far as around page 250 of the 400 odd pages. It’s quite consistent in its content and references. I really don’t see it taking a drastic change in the last 200 pages. So far I have gained nothing from it. The book dogmatically enforces the following of Allah and Mohammed. This is done over and over on every single page with the threat of burning for an eternity in ######. It is written in the style of a paranoid schizophrenic. The main message is complete and utter violent condemnation of all who refuse to follow its preaching’s. There are positives, such as Zakah (giving to charity) and kindness to ones parents and recommending that we do not bury our daughters alive, but this is far, far outweighed by the serious negatives. As with all religions the only reason people follow them is because their parents did so before them. This combined with the enforced teachings in Islamic culture are the only reason that one follows one religion and not another.

Quran 2: The Cow.

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.  

2:161 Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined.

2:162 They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved.

War! It’s good for you.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

I won’t go on.

Actually I seriously doubt that many Muslims have actually read the Quran from front to back or back to front, as it may be. I have quizzed many Muslims on the Quran and have never had an answer that didn’t require over night thought. I know that they read it fanatically, but I think they only read designated extracts and not the whole thing.

I have had to copy these eloquent extracts from the net, as I have left my beloved Quran at work. You can brush up on your chapter and verse at this site. It is a relatively unbiased site. It highlights the good as well as the bad.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

u said that u have read 200 pages and u didnt even read what i have posted.

what i have posted are from the same book that u said mostly talks about war!!!!!!!!!!!!

let me ask you

u at work if u dont do your job and come to work late,what will the manager do to u?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will he give u a bonus???????????????

Islam and the Qu'ran: a Religion of Hate?

Over the last few months, neoconservatives and Christian leaders have banded together in an attempt to mar the value systems defined by Islamic ideology and to present Islam to America as a violent, bloodthirsty religion that demands the subversion of the world, or its death. Islam has been decried by many a pastor and priest as a “religion of hate” and a “culture of intolerance.” Neoconservatives claim that Islamic ideology is so foreign and fundamentally different from Western ideology that overlap or mutual understanding is impossible. After all, they reason, how can America come to terms with a society that sends its children to die in the name of God, or a faith that demands its adherent to kill all infidels if they refuse to covert to Islam?

When I first heard these comments, I laughed. I laughed at the sheer stupidity of the people that would suggest such patently false ideas. I laughed at what I thought were their pathetic attempts to wage a propaganda and misinformation war against Muslims in America in an attempt to vilify and marginalize them. After all, what kind of dupe would believe the ridiculous lies they were spreading? Anyone could pick up a book or talk to a Muslim and find out the truth.

Well, I am not laughing anymore.

A lot of thought has gone into planning the war for America’s opinion. The misinformation war that the neoconservatives and Christian right have launched is from two fronts. First, Christian leaders take specific quotes out of the Qu’ran (or Koran), the Muslim holy book, in an attempt to depict Islam as a fundamentally violent faith, as defined by its basic ideology. They are particularly interested in presenting the idea of jihad as a call to war, knowing that this is completely false and that Muslims cannot reject jihad, as it is a central theme in Islam. Secondly, the public opinion spin doctors use misunderstood or poorly documented dogmas in Islam and present them as proof that Islam has a carnal and perverted moral code.

As both of these topics are extremely diverse and complex, I will attempt to answer them in two successive columns.

It seems to me that no matter how loudly we protest that Islam is not a religion of violence, conservative Christians are not willing to listen. They point out specific passages in the Qu’ran that demand Muslims to go to war against the infidels, or to kill the unbelievers wherever we should find them. Passage after passage is recited or detailed with exacting patience and precision; passages that deal with war, death, and punishment. Why is Islam so violent? Why does it demand so much bloodshed and death? Why does Allah command that Muslims kill Christians, Jews, and anyone else who does not convert to Islam?

It is thus with great irony that I would ask the same question of the Christian world. Why does the Biblical God demand the death of enemies or the seemingly brutal subjugation of women?

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . . -- Ex. 21:22-25

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." -- Genesis 3:16

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." --1 Tim. 2:11-14

In fact, it seems to me that the Bible demands the murder of children!

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." --Psalm 137:9

“… slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.” -- I Samuel 15:3

”… dash their children, and rip up their women with child.” -- 2 Kings 8:12

Of course, the intent here is to illustrate that any quote that is taken out of context can be made to fit the crime. It is not difficult to selectively provide quotes that incriminate or condemn. For instance, take a commonly used quote from the Qu’ran that is used as proof that it is violent:

“...slay (enemies] wherever you find them!" -- (4: 89).

This line does look extremely violent. It is difficult to imagine a viable explanation for such a statement. Indeed, can there even be such a justification? Well, let us take a look at the following line:

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.” -- (4: 90).

The idea that this is “proof” that Islam is violent then is preposterous. The second line is crucial to the message of the text; even in times of war, soldiers must observe the laws of compassion and reason as dictated by the Qu’ran. One wonders why pundits like Jerry Falwell and Ann Coulter do not come across these lines in their search for the truth:

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." – (2:190)

Do not "take life -- which God has made sacred -- except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority" to demand justice for the death or to forgive it. "But let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped [by the Law]." -- Surah 17

One other ideological process neoconservatives have committed themselves to is the attempt to malign the intent of jihad. Western media have picked up their cry of jihad as “holy war,” which is in fact a western adaptation, reminiscent of crusader mentality used against Muslims during the Church’s holy war against Islam. There is no term for “holy war” in Arabic. The word jihad translates to “struggle.” It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level: personal and social, as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad (s.a.w.) telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad,' the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart. Indeed, although jihad can be a struggle to protect the weak or to free the oppressed, a greater jihad is that of one’s own desires; the jihad for spiritual cleanliness and the application of the laws of God into one’s own life. This includes telling the truth, providing for the destitute and the hungry, and the control of carnal desires like gluttony and sleep. Although jihad can be used to defend one’s person, property, or community, it is not some rallying call to arms in an attempt to advocate violence as a way of life or to suggest that all infidels should be put to the sword.

It is clear then that the use of selective quotes out of the Qu’ran is merely an attempt at the legitimization of the false claim that Islam is violent. Indeed, by the examples referenced above, it is unmistakable that neoconservatives are relying on misinformation and lies to propagate their vicious slander. Their attempt to vilify jihad is similar in its intent, if not its process. What could be more in sync with American ideals of honor, self-sacrifice, and courage in the face of adversity? Jihad is not an Islamic invention; it is a global definition of valor and a demand for personal excellence.

It is all the more wretched that these lies are told by men and women that claim to represent the leadership of their faith. If this is what Christianity is, then I am glad that I am Muslim. Now it is time to determine if these leaders represent the exception or the rule. Do these leaders espouse what is commonly believed by the practitioners of their faith, representative of a majority of Christians that would like to see pluralism and interfaith communication perish? Or are these pundits on the leading edge of extremism, delegates of the few fanatics that Christianity generally rejects? From what I see in the media, I am fearful that it is the former

http://www.proislam.com/column_quran_violent.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been sort of exploring all this much like a sounge absorbing and not making judgements. There is a haunting question for me and in all honesty it may have been answered. Where do the terroist come from, not geographically, but to tie a bomb to yourself and ignite it, to kill indescriminanlty you would have to be convienced that this was for a valid and mucher higher purpose.

Where does that thought process come from?

[Fast Eddie]

rich - simply by reading the Quran one cannot understand it, even with a literally translated version.  It's language is too complicated to derive your own perceptions of what it actual says.  It is advised that the Quran is read and understood along with the guidance of knowledgable people such as the Ulama.

e.g. if I wanted to become a brain surgeon would it be sufficient for me to read a few books on brain surgery and be successful?  If I wanted to learn how to drive would it be sufficient for me to read a few books and then get straight into a car and drive away successfully?  Of course not.  I would need the guidance and teaching from someone who knows these things already.  The same is of Islam.  There are countless books on Islam, the Hadith and the Quran but you simply cannot read these and say that you understand or know about Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a fair enough point. But who should we listen to in order to understand it's meaning? Bin Laden and the Mad Mullahs? They're Muslim aren't they? and it would appear that there are plenty of muslims listening to their interpretation recently, sadly.

[richb2004]

u said that u have read 200 pages and u didnt even read what i have posted.

what i have posted are from the same book that u said mostly talks about war!!!!!!!!!!!!

let me ask you

u at work if u dont do your job and come to work late,what will the manager do to u?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will he give u a bonus???????????????

Islam and the Qu'ran: a Religion of Hate?

No, I really don’t recall reading about not breaking trees. Is it a comic reference? Maybe if it was repeated over and over on every page, and if it said that if I did break trees I would burn in a torturous ######, then I would have remembered it. As it is, in the scope of the rest of the book it seems of little recompense.

As for going to work late, I have no idea what you are getting at. I don’t go to work late. I’m a model employee, except I’m not because I’m an infidel in a company of Muslims.

Attempting to validate the hatred in the Quran by comparing it to the Bible doesn’t wash. The bible is full of nonsense on a biblical scale, plus plenty of violence. Fortunately there aren’t too many people following it with such adherence any more. Hundreds of years ago it was a difference case, but not any more. Sadly the Muslims are still following the Quran word for word. That’s the problem. If they would just take the foot of the gas a little in respect to their absolute fundamentalist nature things might be a lot better, but with Muslims it’s an all or nothing approach.

Also I don’t say that the Quran mostly talks about war. I said that it enforces hatred and intolerance towards unbelievers and that it threatens apostasy with ######.

[richb2004]

and richb2004

u cant judge a book from the first two pages

i bet u havent read the quran that why your saying this

did u read the part wher it says u are not allowed to break a tree in a war????

I don’t recall reading that. Where is that in the Quran? Surely if you can kill unbelievers you can break a tree. Or are we talking Muslim trees versus non-Muslim trees?

Your right I haven’t yet read the complete Quran. I have got as far as around page 250 of the 400 odd pages. It’s quite consistent in its content and references. I really don’t see it taking a drastic change in the last 200 pages. So far I have gained nothing from it. The book dogmatically enforces the following of Allah and Mohammed. This is done over and over on every single page with the threat of burning for an eternity in ######. It is written in the style of a paranoid schizophrenic. The main message is complete and utter violent condemnation of all who refuse to follow its preaching’s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

here read this and see

but remember this was written over one thousand years ago

THE BIRTH OF A HUMAN BEING

Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an in the course of inviting people to believe. Sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants are shown as evidence to man by God. In many of the verses, people are called upon to turn their attention to their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:

(It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator?) (The Qur'an, 56:57-59)

The creation of man, and the miraculous aspect of this, is stressed in many other verses. Some items of information within these verses are so detailed that it is impossible for anyone living in the 7th century to have known them. Some of these are as follows:

. Man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).

2. It is the male that determines the sex of the baby.

3. The human embryo adheres to the mother's uterus like a leech.

4. The embryo develops in three dark regions in the uterus.

People living when the Qur'an was revealed, to be sure, knew that the basic substance of birth was related to the semen of the male emitted during sexual intercourse. And the fact that the baby was born after a nine-month period was obviously an observable event not calling for any further investigation. However, the items of information just quoted were far above the level of learning of the people living at that time. These were verified by 20th century science.

Now, let us go over them one by one.

Once again my thoughts are confirmed. Another mad Muslim!

How the h*** did you extract that from the Quran? You might just as well be following the writings of Nostradamus. These are exactly the sort of things my Muslim 'friends' tell me.

I give up! Your right, Mohammed was the last prophet of Allah. Allah made everything. He made a whole load of people that aren’t Muslims, but he could change that if he chose to. We will all go to the land of milk and honey with a shed load of virgins. Let’s not eat pork because it is Allans will. We can all have four wives, because that’s ok. Mohammed married a 6 year old girl, but that’s ok because he didn't rape her until she was 9. Your right! You’ve convinced me. I am a Muslim and proud of all it entails. Where do I go to start my first Jihad?

You know you could always denounce Islam and join the human race. It’s never too late.

[smb]

rich

this is your problem.you translate how u want.although i have been posting all day verses fromt he qur'an and im a muslim telling u that its not true...

u want to show like bin laden is the true muslim and all the other terrorists

i am an arab and i have read the qur'an and im a muslim telling u that they call themselves muslims but dont practise the real islam just like anyother religion but u dont seem to want to get it

Fast Eddie

it is really complicated

the mullas go to un educated,poor and sufring people and tell them that islam is this and islam is that and if u do this and that u will go to hevean.then they take them and feed them and give them money and help their families at times while thats they are feeding them with haterd.they use scripts from the qur'an to their use. and they know those uneducated guys wont read are try to corect what they were told.

something like that

and by the way sucide in islam is a great sin one of the greatest .it sends you to hellll straigt away

[zaz]

I have been sort of exploring all this much like a sounge absorbing and not making judgements. There is a haunting question for me and in all honesty it may have been answered. Where do the terroist come from, not geographically, but to tie a bomb to yourself and ignite it, to kill indescriminanlty you would have to be convienced that this was for a valid and mucher higher purpose.

Where does that thought process come from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are 2 types of suicide bombers:

1) The Palestinian who has had his home taken away from him, his family tortured or just plainly killed, he has nothing no weapons to fight with and no-one will listen to his crying voice. Because he has nothing more to live for he blows himself up to "fight back".

2) The London bombers / the daily bombers in Iraq / the 9/11 team etc

The plight of these people is sheer frustration from the fact that the western powers that be are simply such blatant and arrogant hypocrits that turn a blind eye to the attrocities happening against Muslims in the occupied territories / the war on Iraq being unjustified etc etc

"Terrorist" #1 may be understood or even sympathised by people even in the west. Some scholars may even say that this is allowable in Islam because this person has been DIRECTLY affected by warfare from the other side and his actions justified as being on the battleground.

Terrorist #2 however is the real terrorist. This person has been brainwashed into thinking that killing innocent civillians and causing such disruption and carnage by killing himself he will be fighting for Islam and be classed as a Martyr....excuse me but you're wrong mate. Firstly the unprovoked killing of innocent people is WRONG and secondly suicide in Islam is WRONG. A person cannot under ANY circumstance take their own life - subject to #1 above being perceived to be on the battleground or not.

[smb]

and richb2004

u cant judge a book from the first two pages

i bet u havent read the quran that why your saying this

did u read the part wher it says u are not allowed to break a tree in a war????

I don’t recall reading that. Where is that in the Quran? Surely if you can kill unbelievers you can break a tree. Or are we talking Muslim trees versus non-Muslim trees?

Your right I haven’t yet read the complete Quran. I have got as far as around page 250 of the 400 odd pages. It’s quite consistent in its content and references. I really don’t see it taking a drastic change in the last 200 pages. So far I have gained nothing from it. The book dogmatically enforces the following of Allah and Mohammed. This is done over and over on every single page with the threat of burning for an eternity in ######. It is written in the style of a paranoid schizophrenic. The main message is complete and utter violent condemnation of all who refuse to follow its preaching’s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

here read this and see

but remember this was written over one thousand years ago

THE BIRTH OF A HUMAN BEING

Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an in the course of inviting people to believe. Sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants are shown as evidence to man by God. In many of the verses, people are called upon to turn their attention to their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:

(It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator?) (The Qur'an, 56:57-59)

The creation of man, and the miraculous aspect of this, is stressed in many other verses. Some items of information within these verses are so detailed that it is impossible for anyone living in the 7th century to have known them. Some of these are as follows:

. Man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).

2. It is the male that determines the sex of the baby.

3. The human embryo adheres to the mother's uterus like a leech.

4. The embryo develops in three dark regions in the uterus.

People living when the Qur'an was revealed, to be sure, knew that the basic substance of birth was related to the semen of the male emitted during sexual intercourse. And the fact that the baby was born after a nine-month period was obviously an observable event not calling for any further investigation. However, the items of information just quoted were far above the level of learning of the people living at that time. These were verified by 20th century science.

Now, let us go over them one by one.

Once again my thoughts are confirmed. Another mad Muslim!

How the h*** did you extract that from the Quran? You might just as well be following the writings of Nostradamus. These are exactly the sort of things my Muslim 'friends' tell me.

I give up! Your right, Mohammed was the last prophet of Allah. Allah made everything. He made a whole load of people that aren’t Muslims, but he could change that if he chose to. We will all go to the land of milk and honey with a shed load of virgins. Let’s not eat pork because it is Allans will. We can all have four wives, because that’s ok. Mohammed married a 6 year old girl, but that’s ok because he didn't rape her until she was 9. Your right! You’ve convinced me. I am a Muslim and proud of all it entails. Where do I go to start my first Jihad?

You know you could always denounce Islam and join the human race. It’s never too late.

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loooooooooooooooooooooool

i got that from the book you said u have read 200 pages from

wellcome to islam

your first jihad would have to be in your soul.clear all that ignorance and haterd in you

and remember jihad doesnt mean war.

i did post a looooooong explination of what does jihad means but as usual are here not to talk and try to reach the other side.

your problem is that u think that u are totally right and u know everything.although im trying to corect what your knowlegd about me but u refuse to listen.

[zaz]

Its almost funny, in a frustrating way, how we're trying to explain to you guys that your thoughts are so misconstrued and one-sided that I am simply amazed at how a person's mind can be so narrow-minded and heart be so closed.

Do you hate me because I am a Muslim and simply for that reason? If I said I wasn't a Muslim would you not hate me then?

I bet you anything, if we ever bumped into each other at a bar in Bangkok and got chatting like strangers do, we would get along fine, just fine. Because when new people meet in new places they don't have labels on their foreheads reading "Muslim" or "Terrorist" or whatever. People in general just get along ok don't they and they don't have any misconceptions about each other because it really doesn't even matter.

Guys if you open your minds a little your hearts will follow suit - it's nicer on this side.

[richb2004]

rich

this is your problem.you translate how u want.although i have been posting all day verses fromt he qur'an and im a muslim telling u that its not true...

u want to show like bin laden is the true muslim and all the other terrorists

i am an arab and i have read the qur'an and im a muslim telling u that they call themselves muslims but dont practise the real islam just like anyother religion but u dont seem to want to get it

I have had discussions with poor Bihar Indian Muslims, very rich Saudi Muslims, intelligent and educated Iraqis, a Muslim doctor, Muslim janitors, Muslim teachers, Muslim businessmen and many Muslims that call them selves moderate. The one thing they all have in common is their unmovable fundamentalist beliefs. These beliefs are only exposed when they are pushed, but unfortunately they are always present. I have searched and searched, like it’s the Holy Grail, to find a truly right minded Muslims and I have only found one. He was an Iraqi brought up in a very open minded household. He himself told me that he has never met a similarly minded Muslim! What does that tell you? He also translates Arabic news channels for me and relays Arabic conversations for me that I shouldn’t be listening to. Thanks to him I have some idea of what goes on inside the Mosques and what is said by the Arabic media.

I have however had brief dealings with Bosnian Muslims and my early impression is that they are possible moderate in their thoughts. I can not confirm this as I have not had the opportunity to explore further. These Muslims are seen as inferior and not actually true Muslims by all Arabs I have met.

As for not getting it, well I seriously did want to get it, which is why I am reading the Quran and why I spend so much time talking to Muslims and trying to find out what makes them tick.

[Fast Eddie]

rich

this is your problem.you translate how u want.although i have been posting all day verses fromt he qur'an and im a muslim telling u that its not true...

u want to show like bin laden is the true muslim and all the other terrorists

i am an arab and i have read the qur'an and im a muslim telling u that they call themselves muslims but dont practise the real islam just like anyother religion but u dont seem to want to get it

Fast Eddie

it is really complicated

the mullas go to un educated,poor and sufring people and tell them that islam is this and islam is that and if u do this and that u will go to hevean.then they take them and feed them and give them money and help their families at times while thats they are feeding them with haterd.they use scripts from the qur'an to their use. and they know those uneducated guys wont read are try to corect what they were told.

something like that

and by the way sucide in islam is a great sin one of the greatest .it sends you to hellll straigt away

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The thing is, that this is your (and other peace loving muslims) interpretation of your religion. But you cannot say that the others are not Muslims. They just have a different interpretation of the religion than you do. You cannot just disown them that easily and say they are not really part of your religion. They are acting in Islam's name, whether you agree with what they do or not. It would appear that there are plenty of Muslims in the world that do believe in a violent interpretation of their religion.