uptheos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 No body ever tries to see what the church itself teaches, What exactly does it teach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Tell you what HelloDolly, we'll keep it simple and avoid getting specific about the various sects, schisms, denominations, or interpretations (so for the moment avoiding discussion of the Catholic Church which is VERY specific): * There is a God. * God is perfect. * God is omniscient. * God is omnipotent. * God created the universe and all living creatures that it started with. * God intervenes in the Universe. * Jesus was born of a virgin and was the son of God. * Jesus was killed for our sins. * Jesus came back to life. * There is life after death. If you are a Christian, you believe the above. I and millions of others do not. (I think there are very strong arguments for our side and absolutely none at all for yours.) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Don't forget current reports that the Catholic church made millions from donations by the fascist dictator Mussolini, donated as a reward for recognising his regime in 1929. http://www.guardian....ini?INTCMP=SRCH What a pity that God, speaking directly to the Pope as his infallible representative on earth, neglected to inform him that fascism was wrong... Does anyone really need any more indication that these religions are forged in the minds of not particularly bright individuals with axes to grind? You are a classic example off what I was talking about in my last post with naboo. The pope only claims infallibility on religious matters. I was told it was over 70 years ago that he used that. No body ever tries to see what the church itself teaches, They take the word of the minister, Priest or Nun to be Gods word. Or worse yet some ones interpretation of the bible. With all due respect, in above post and a previous one you have demonstrated that not only are you rather uninformed on the teachings of the Church, the Bible, and indeed Christianity in general, you are so very misinformed regarding the extent of knowledge others hold - including many non-believers (myself and others on this thread among them but certainly people far more learned). Obviously you are welcome to hold whatever customized spiritual stance you like - but the Catholic Church/Christianity is nowhere near as elastic as you wish it were (mind you ALL Christians are forced to cherry-pick only the parts of the Bible they like - or we'd be in a world of savagery and madness given the parts of the bible that command murder of all manner of transgressions). Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap With all due respect I do know what I am talking about and I refer to the Bible as the Jewish Book of Fairy Tales. As I said the teachings vary from diocese to diocese and the only Bible I got in 9 and 1/2 years of Catholic schooling was at mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Tell you what HelloDolly, we'll keep it simple and avoid getting specific about the various sects, schisms, denominations, or interpretations (so for the moment avoiding discussion of the Catholic Church which is VERY specific): * There is a God. * God is perfect. * God is omniscient. * God is omnipotent. * God created the universe and all living creatures that it started with. * God intervenes in the Universe. * Jesus was born of a virgin and was the son of God. * Jesus was killed for our sins. * Jesus came back to life. * There is life after death. If you are a Christian, you believe the above. I and millions of others do not. (I think there are very strong arguments for our side and absolutely none at all for yours.) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap What ever turns your crank. Are saying that only a Christian can believe in God? End of discussion. I am finding your beliefs to be far to close minded. As I have said I will not try to convert you to my beliefs you and every one else are welcome to there own beliefs and as I have said I find many of them to be founded on other peoples beliefs. Actually on what other people say. Some don't believe what they say either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 It has been suggested in a previous post that the Catholic church is responsible for the spread of HIV. Whilst this might not be completely true in the western world where most people treat the Vatican's words with the disdain they deserve, it certainly applies to many countries, specifically Africa. Regarding the Catholic churches position on contraception and looking at the situation in, say, Uganda, where AIDS was once successfully tackled by the ‘ABC’ policy of Abstinence – Be Faithful – Correct use of Condoms. Now, this is jeopardised by reverting to abstinence only approaches. Whilst not denying that abstinence is a good way of not getting AIDS. It really works. But so do condoms!! The Pope spreads the lie that condoms increase the incidence of aids. He actually makes sure that aid is conditional on saying no to condoms. The pain and suffering you see as a result is appalling. And if that isn't bad enough, if you break any rules you are faced with eternal fire and hell. How cruel, how wicked, but take it one step further....how much more wicked is to teach this concept to young innocent children, so they can spend the rest of their young lives living in fear!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Tell you what HelloDolly, we'll keep it simple and avoid getting specific about the various sects, schisms, denominations, or interpretations (so for the moment avoiding discussion of the Catholic Church which is VERY specific): * There is a God. * God is perfect. * God is omniscient. * God is omnipotent. * God created the universe and all living creatures that it started with. * God intervenes in the Universe. * Jesus was born of a virgin and was the son of God. * Jesus was killed for our sins. * Jesus came back to life. * There is life after death. If you are a Christian, you believe the above. I and millions of others do not. (I think there are very strong arguments for our side and absolutely none at all for yours.) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap What ever turns your crank. Are saying that only a Christian can believe in God? End of discussion. I am finding your beliefs to be far to close minded. As I have said I will not try to convert you to my beliefs you and every one else are welcome to there own beliefs and as I have said I find many of them to be founded on other peoples beliefs. Actually on what other people say. Some don't believe what they say either. No, clearly I am not saying that. You are the one who referenced Christianity. My beliefs are too close minded? Remarkable (and gratuitously judgmental) comment given you don't know what they are. It never fails -- it's always the believers who want to end the discussion when faced with scrutiny and rational comment. For obvious reasons. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Edited January 25, 2013 by SteeleJoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 If you know what you are talking about, you wouldn't claim Christianity (or especially Catholicism) is so amorphous as you do. Nor would you claim that others don't know what it actually is. And you don't know what you are talking about if you think that the basic and fundamental (ie most important) tenets differ from diocese to diocese. Simple. Oh, and if you think the Bible is just Fairy Tales... Never mind. Time to go down for breakfast Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 . I am willing to listen to new evidence that there is no god if you have any but I doubt you really looked. What a ridiculous statement. No-one has to prove something that doesn't exist. However, the burden of proof is on you to prove something does exist.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 It never fails -- it's always the believers who want to end the discussion when faced with scrutiny and rational comment. For obvious reasons. Like a weak barrister in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) With all due respect I do know what I am talking about and I refer to the Bible as the Jewish Book of Fairy Tales. Funny that I guess that's the little entertainment present from the Jewish people, who concentrate on the Talmud (first 5 books of the Bible) Edited January 25, 2013 by uptheos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMHomeboy78 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Arguing about the unknowable is ridiculous. It takes a leap of faith to believe in God - it takes an even longer one not to. You militant atheists are very different people from those who were here before you. You have all the answers. Chiang Mai attracted a diverse lot at one time. Stoners and reprobates and pilgrims young and old. Latter-day Palmers and Romers who regarded Asian cultures with reverence and understanding. They were all here - the full spectrum of humanity, the whole banquet - everything from fruit to nuts. But at least they were interesting. Coming overland across Asia on the Hippie Trail was a life-changing experience for many of us. We got our education on the road from Istanbul to Katmandu. Secular Humanism wasn't part of the syllabus; maybe it should have been. Everywhere was to be seen the remains of what religions had built. From the Gods of Greece and Rome to Christianity to Islam to Buddhism and Hinduism it was always some religion that was the motivating force behind the building; and then it became the destroyer that leveled them. Creation and destruction forever and ever. And in between aeons the gasbags with too much time on their hands will debate the issues endlessly and come up with questions such as "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?" or quotes from Christopher Hitchens. Thus descending into farce; much like a TV thread on religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterisbetter Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 With all due respect I do know what I am talking about and I refer to the Bible as the Jewish Book of Fairy Tales. Funny that I guess that's the little entertainment present from the Jewish people, who concentrate on the Talmud (first 5 books of the Bible) Think you had a slight slip of the tongue (hand?) here. It's the Torah that is the first 5 books of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 With all due respect I do know what I am talking about and I refer to the Bible as the Jewish Book of Fairy Tales. Funny that I guess that's the little entertainment present from the Jewish people, who concentrate on the Talmud (first 5 books of the Bible) Think you had a slight slip of the tongue (hand?) here. It's the Torah that is the first 5 books of the Bible. Yup for sure..... thanks for pointing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Arguing about the unknowable is ridiculous.It takes a leap of faith to believe in God - it takes an even longer one not to. You militant atheists are very different people from those who were here before you. You have all the answers. Chiang Mai attracted a diverse lot at one time. Stoners and reprobates and pilgrims young and old. Latter-day Palmers and Romers who regarded Asian cultures with reverence and understanding. They were all here - the full spectrum of humanity, the whole banquet - everything from fruit to nuts. But at least they were interesting. Coming overland across Asia on the Hippie Trail was a life-changing experience for many of us. We got our education on the road from Istanbul to Katmandu. Secular Humanism wasn't part of the syllabus; maybe it should have been. Everywhere was to be seen the remains of what religions had built. From the Gods of Greece and Rome to Christianity to Islam to Buddhism and Hinduism it was always some religion that was the motivating force behind the building; and then it became the destroyer that leveled them. Creation and destruction forever and ever. And in between aeons the gasbags with too much time on their hands will debate the issues endlessly and come up with questions such as "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?" or quotes from Christopher Hitchens. Thus descending into farce; much like a TV thread on religion. "It takes a leap of faith to believe in God - it takes an even longer one not to." As poetically symetric as that may be, it's patently ridiculous. To NOT believe in something which has ZERO evidence requires no leap of faith whatsoever. Anyone remotely familiar logical thought can see that. Does it require a leap of faith not to believe in voodoo, or Poseidon, or astrology or Elvis sightings? Militant atheists? Not sure who that's supposed to be but I'm more interested in who you would claim has explicitly or impliicitly stated they have all the answers - which posters would that be, please? The rest of your rhetoric is nicely written and pleasant enough to read, but of no discernible value in terms of a contribution to the discussion, is it? Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryBird Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I agree, he does have a nice writing style.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partington Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) NABOO The Catholic church does not say there is a hell. Just to show this poster is very, very shaky on his facts. This is the official Catholic church's view on the matter, taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (this is issued by the Vatican as a definitive guide to what Catholics must believe, is used to teach the faith world-wide and is the current version on the Vatican's own website): IV. Hell ... 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The Pope has kindly wriitten it all down for Catholics world wide in many different languages, so you can use this to check any other claims made by any poster about what Catholics actually must believe. This is the great thing about having an authoritarian church with an infallible head. You can't claim that Catholic belief varies according to where you are , or who teaches you, or all that other stuff, because the Vatican tell you in black and white, and on matters of faith and doctrine you must believe it. Source: http://www.vatican.v...e/ccc/index.htm Edited January 25, 2013 by partington 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Arguing about the unknowable is ridiculous. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Arguing about the unknowable is ridiculous. Agreed. It is if one thinks they can prove anything. Arguing with people who think they know the unknowable (people who claim to know of the existence of God and what he is and wants) is less so. And DISCUSSING it is not only reasonable but wise - given the import of the topic. I've never seen anyone but the believers who want to shut down such discussions - which is very telling. Edit: If you only argue about things which are knowable, then you can eliminate much of this forum: I doubt you can claim to have never argued about something that you couldn't prove. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Edited January 25, 2013 by SteeleJoe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Arguing about the unknowable is ridiculous. Agreed. It is if one thinks they can prove anything. Arguing with people who think they know the unknowable (people who claim to know of the existence of God and what he is and wants) is less so. Personally, I find the people who think that they know there is no God, just as annoying as those who think they know there is one. No one knows. Edited January 25, 2013 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throatwobbler Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Science has more and better answers than hocus pocus religion. I'm happy that you are putting all of your faith into science. When you get a terminal illness, it won't cure you. It can't even cure your cold. You're on your own, all alone in a universe neither you nor I know much about. Your lifetime is a blink of an eye in time. All I'm saying is that I'm happy for you that you know so much more than I do. I'd rather put my faith in science than some imaginary friend. Science may not be able to cure the common cold but it has cured a huge amount of other diseases, small pox Tb etc the list is pretty endless. What has your god person cured. Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelsLariat Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Arguing about the unknowable is ridiculous. It takes a leap of faith to believe in God - it takes an even longer one not to. You militant atheists are very different people from those who were here before you. You have all the answers. Chiang Mai attracted a diverse lot at one time. Stoners and reprobates and pilgrims young and old. Latter-day Palmers and Romers who regarded Asian cultures with reverence and understanding. They were all here - the full spectrum of humanity, the whole banquet - everything from fruit to nuts. But at least they were interesting. Coming overland across Asia on the Hippie Trail was a life-changing experience for many of us. We got our education on the road from Istanbul to Katmandu. Secular Humanism wasn't part of the syllabus; maybe it should have been. Everywhere was to be seen the remains of what religions had built. From the Gods of Greece and Rome to Christianity to Islam to Buddhism and Hinduism it was always some religion that was the motivating force behind the building; and then it became the destroyer that leveled them. Creation and destruction forever and ever. And in between aeons the gasbags with too much time on their hands will debate the issues endlessly and come up with questions such as "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?" or quotes from Christopher Hitchens. Thus descending into farce; much like a TV thread on religion. Not sure that I'd call it militant atheism, but it does seems as though any mention of God or of Western religions on ThaiVisa provokes a negative reaction that borders on proselytizing about atheism. The widespread contempt for people of faith exhibited by so many members of the expat community in Thailand always seemed curious to me considering that they have chosen to settle in a country where the locals leave Red Fanta out for spirits and apologize to the river. Edited January 25, 2013 by AngelsLariat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throatwobbler Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) The heading should read " THE CHURCH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SPREAD OF HIV!!" especially the Catholic church in Africa and other places. the post started out with a supposed miracle and has degenerated into a rant against religion. Granted they have done an awfully amount of wrong but so far from the OP. the next thing you know people will be talking about fish here. You're amusement (or at least the emoticons) seems rather odd and excessive but I saw no rant. And while I've never understood why people care if threads don't adhere without any deviation from an OP, it seems quite extraordinary to me that you think an OP about a "miracle" attributed to "God" has nothing to do with religion. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Just a typical response from a religious person when confronted with evidence and reason. Hands over their ears shouting na na I can't hear you. Edited January 25, 2013 by Throatwobbler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgriffith Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Topic is closed; not Chiang Mai specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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