Investment Poule For Members?

[sting01]

Sound more realistic to me, but I would like to raise the same problem as for the 5 000 $, here 20 $ will be certainly to small to have enought cash for starting.

Assuming a teacher salary (that is the smallest legit earning in thailand for a foreigner, it's why I always speak about this salary) is around 25 000 bht or 600 $, I think 100 $ can be the price of one share (or 4 000 bht). It would be small enought to allow any to buy at least one, and also big enought to raise enought money for the purpose you present.

Another problem, what about legal protection. Even 20 $ is money, and no one throw monwy by the window, if you get my point. In your proposition (business angels as it'scalled in france), if there is good investment, no one will really care because money will come back, but in case of bad investment, the wolfs will screams. So it's also necessary to have legal security for both those who will buy the $20, and those who will manipulate it.

[thohts]

Obviously, the board would have to have some business experience (oops). I propose an alternate way of electing a board of directors:

-Before shares are sold, each person who wants to be a part of their management team will submit some kind of CV or summary of their business experience. (References could be checked out by a designated party or two)

-An IPO period of 3-4 weeks where shares can be bought for $100/share*

-After this period, an election is held to determine the management for the new corporation. 1 share = 1 vote

-The elected parties will each receive 10 free shares in the company for their time and effort

-Unsold shares will remain authorized but unissued

As the corporation will be formed and managed by multiple parties, it will not be so easy to 'screw everyone' and steal money. It will be a transparent organization whose purpose is to fund and manage profitable ventures. An outside lawyer could be retained in case any legal issues arise. And there would be a process for making grievances.

Any business venture is a risk for investors. A person should not risk what they cannot afford to lose. One does not have to purchase any shares at all if they don't trust the members involved. However, when and if trust between members develop, more shares can be purchased to reflect the new confidence level.

Most likely, nothing will come of this (practically everyone thinking that they have to agree on everything, etc). But it's certainly worth entertaining the idea.

*there's really not much difference between shares being sold at 1,000 baht/share or 4,000. People would just buy the number of shares appropriate to their allocated budget. However, a lower share price would encourage MORE people to purchase part of the company.

Edited April 15, 2006 by thohts

[malcolminthemiddle]

Back in the late 80’s living in Bahrain I joined a syndicate to buy a boat. The boat was a 5 year old 45 ft Trawler Yacht worth about £75,000 new. The boat belonged to an affluent Bahraini family but was in disrepair having remained in dock for 3 years following an accident on board in which one of the sons had been fatally injured.

There were 6 of us in the syndicate, we were all in our early 30’s and we all clubbed together to buy the boat for £15,000, we spent the first 3 months on our hands and knees renovating our “Gin Palace”.

We shared the monthly costs including, maintenance, fuel, mooring and any enhancement/repair costs. Any cost deemed to enhance the value of the boat was added to the share value. An Articles of Agreement was drafted and agreed which included the right to sell ones share at the current price at any time.

I sold my share after 2 years of fun recovering my initial investment plus my share of the improvement costs, the syndicate stayed in existence for the next 12 years until the boat was eventually sold.

An investment syndicate is not dissimilar, there are no guarantees other than those provided by the banks and other investment institutes. There are of course checks and balances which are devised and implemented by the members themselves to ensure transparencywith the object to keep administration to a minimum.

Talk of corporations, companies, board of directors, guarantees, insurances, escrow accounts and the like shows a misunderstanding of the “Investment Club” concept.

[lordsux]

Nice to see all the responses to this thread, this tells me that there is at least some interest. A lot of positve replies and not too much flaming for a change, nice!

I never mentioned which sort of business it should be, or how much capital should be raised. In fact I didn't give any details at all. That would have defeated the idea of the venture, seeing as it should be a group venture.

Keep the thoughts and ideas coming, it makes very interesting reading.

[thohts]

Talk of corporations, companies, board of directors, guarantees, insurances, escrow accounts and the like shows a misunderstanding of the “Investment Club” concept.

Sure it does. It also isn't directly relevant to the chinese noodle concept, either

However, the original post stated, "...This got me thinking that with all the expertise and knowledge we have here, that maybe by joining forces and working together with the resources at hand we could somehow create something"

I thought it was about pooling money for capital to start a business. Regardless, these and other similar ideas are worthy of consideration whether it's buying a boat or a condo or starting a business or two.

[malcolminthemiddle]

The topic is called "Investment Pool", if this was intended to mean "Forming a Business" then I for one am not interested.

[thohts]

The topic is called "Investment Pool", if this was intended to mean "Forming a Business" then I for one am not interested.

You must have just read the topic and missed the body.

"...Any input, thoughts, business ideas, pros and cons about this idea are welcome. "

What would the point of an investment pool be if it's not a kind of business? We all pool our money together like a bunch of old ladies to buy some stocks?

[~G~]

What would the point of an investment pool be if it's not a kind of business? We all pool our money together like a bunch of old ladies to buy some stocks?

Very simple, you cannot just invest. You need to "analyze", "study" and "spend time". The ones who will do that will take some salaries or percentage (or maybe the whole fund altogether? why not invest in their accounts overseas?). The others will experience yet another way of loosing money in Thailand. The positive result for expats community as a whole here will be more interesting and colorful threads on this and other boards.

Clear?

[sting01]

What would the point of an investment pool be if it's not a kind of business? We all pool our money together like a bunch of old ladies to buy some stocks?

Very simple, you cannot just invest. You need to "analyze", "study" and "spend time". The ones who will do that will take some salaries or percentage (or maybe the whole fund altogether? why not invest in their accounts overseas?). The others will experience yet another way of loosing money in Thailand. The positive result for expats community as a whole here will be more interesting and colorful threads on this and other boards.

Clear?

And to allow him to do so, the shares must be at $ 5000 ???????????????????? That is a very nice idea indeed. Can I postulate as 'The one who will do that' ?????????? lol

Anyway I did not get answer to my questions : How it's possible to buy a $5 000 when you are eaning 30 000 bhts? (according to ajarn.com, that is the average salary for a legit teacher).

Boat in bahrain, last time I heart about a boat in bahrain, it did sunk, and people with. So I do not think it's a good exemple of succesful (at 100%) investing club, but a very risky one.

Anyway the idea can be interresting, but as usual it will be limitated to a small amount of people.

So yes sad, because there is potential (ideas, funding, administrative capacity), but it look like success will never come, because some do not want to share the cake with others (the $ 5 000 ideas is OBVIOUSLY a way to keep oportunity to high class retired/corporate who in fact have no need to do it (they can PAY for a legit broker for exemple).

Sound sad or bitter? Yeah, noteally about that idea that was about something somewhere that could make some money. But sad and bitter to see mentality never changes, those who should feel a moral duty to help prefer for greediness or improvement of their self confidence block the way to others. Specifically (but it's not personnal, and have nothing to arhue against this poster or that one), the $ 5 000 obviously will be not acessible for the people who earn less than 100 000 bht permonth. Does a teacher is poor? How much someone who created a business earn per month (I remenber a top sponsort who were earning less than 10 000 bht during one year, does this top sponsort is poor?) But yes a teacher is not rich and will never be able to invest that amount (if yes it's from previous savings).

P.S. I am not teacher, but I repeat , teacher salary is a good indication that legit foreigners can live and work in thailand and not get 100 000+ bht per month, and have a normal life (mean have enought to buy a new shirt or a new necktie).

[~G~]

So yes sad, because there is potential (ideas, funding, administrative capacity), but it look like success will never come, because some do not want to share the cake with others (the $ 5 000 ideas is OBVIOUSLY a way to keep oportunity to high class retired/corporate who in fact have no need to do it (they can PAY for a legit broker for exemple).

Sound sad or bitter? Yeah...

Consider yourself lucky for not being able to participate. Which cake? this is going to be a black hole.

[sting01]

Well, after re reading the wole post, I find I have mostly a negative attitude, due my personnal mood indeed.

So , to change my usual critism, I will do a concrete proposition :

As one poster have say, aneasy way to make money is by internet. There is a lot outsourcing companies (some are top worl companies) that are looking for structures able to follow up, realized and maintain their projects.

The need here to create that structure is not in money or goods, the only need for that is individual computer. But the needed investment is obviously in the brain : A competent coder can hardly do his work, have public relation with the clients, past/curent/potential. And mostly will not have the financial capacity to etablsh himself as company. Acompetent coder is not a competent flash designer, nor a photoshop wizard, nor an accountant, nor a project manager (well he can survive on those fields even if not so competent), and do not have constantly the right way to touch the clients, or to get new contracts.

Yes somthing easy to implement would be a society for exemple where someone will find an collect the projects (from rentacoder, scriptlance, freelance .....) as a PR manager, someone else who distribute the work and follow up the various projects, and some coders designers. The structure could be a partnership limited, so 100$ each person would be more than enought because there is nothing to buy first (pen, paper, maybe a rubber lol), the money will really be a capital and not a starting capital ; it could be succesful.

I tried amongst the year to implement it, but there is a lot work and people who wee interested seemed more willing to spend some money with eventual benefits, but not willing to spend their time and work. That idea to be succesfull do not need money (the coders can work home, and eventually meet every 2 days for a reviewing of their work, all communication are made by internet) but need people able towork, willing to work as we work in farangland.

A website project in USA is mostly negociate at 1 000 $ as starting price (I mean a basic shopping card), I did followed up projects worth 3 or 5 K $ so that exist, and if those projects were made in thailand by me it must mean that is possible to get a bunch of them (I am not a top coder, so it mean there is really a need for people who can handle it professionaly).

In Bangkok, there is no 'Business Angels' as we have in France. That name correspond to people willing to invest some money, or time (never seen someone doing both, but that is logical) to help young business to grow up. so here I give an idea that must be succesfull, if at least some people are ready to invest TIME and professional experience on : company management, client management, project management. If it's made professionaly, money will flow with no (or close to be no) investment.

There is another interrest, as we can suppose we are from various countries, it could be possible to get worldwide clients (let say a scandinavian person will have easier work to get outsourcing projects from a scandinavian company, or will know who is outsourcing work ....). About the competent coders, there is a lot here, and if we got too much work, there is thousands of IT skilled thais.

Let say I propose for consideration, I hope some will be interrested, and if the project is realised I also hope to be included in.

Edited April 17, 2006 by sting01

[malcolminthemiddle]

............................... Boat in bahrain, last time I heart about a boat in bahrain, it did sunk, and people with. So I do not think it's a good exemple of succesful (at 100%) investing club, but a very risky one......................

Thank god none of my close friends who still live in Bahrain were directly affected by the tragedy.

Connecting the recent Bahrain dhow accident with the “Boat Club” I described in my post # 33 (that was submitted as an example to show how a club may work) vividly shows the thought process of some one who, within the club, would be considered of dodgy character and excluded from any executive decision making.

[sting01]

So yes sad, because there is potential (ideas, funding, administrative capacity), but it look like success will never come, because some do not want to share the cake with others (the $ 5 000 ideas is OBVIOUSLY a way to keep oportunity to high class retired/corporate who in fact have no need to do it (they can PAY for a legit broker for exemple).

Sound sad or bitter? Yeah...

Consider yourself lucky for not being able to participate. Which cake? this is going to be a black hole.

Business = risk. It's a part of the equation. When you start any business, you risk your money, your reputation, even your ability to create anotherone later (in my country, if you fail you will not be able to retry, it's called 'failli', and you are banned to do any kind of gestion, even member of a board of any associations).

What me react (too violently I agree), is the main concept there is need of lot of money to start something (I justgiven a concrete exemple where the STARTING capital can be 300$ (3 associates at 100 $ each)). My opinion is there is no real need for capital money, but capital in expertise , it's also why I pointed on the partnership limited.

My opinion, and I think someone who have common sense will share it, is if you can invest 5 000 or 10 000 $, and if this money is clean; you will NOT use a mere investing group to get some mere dividends, but simply go to see a professional (broker, bank ...). It let me think there is also a need for what is called 'Business Angel', people who have the expertise, the time (retired), the will (young retired who are ready to start a new challenge) with challenge spirit (for a PR retired at 45 y old, put 100$ in a venture is nothing, it's less than what he pay in estaurant when he treat his friends, but put himself again in the middle of the turmoil, created something from scratch, nuture it as a new born, ....).

I given an exemple because I know well that field, I know the potentiallities, I can give figure for the last 4 years, I know also the downfalls, the bottleneck, the potentials and existing problems. I suppose some others exemples can be given, assuming IT is not the only field where farangs have an expertise and can create winning venture, not based on money, but based on the knowledges and experience, and with hight return.

About dogy, the only time I met that word before, it was used as a special style related to kama soutra, so I suppose in the contest the meaning must be different. But that is also something who go to my point : mostly societies who outsource IT projects do communication in english, so a skilled english native can harvest more easily projects than a english non speaking person as I. So rather than spend 4 hours to try to understand what the client neeed and to try to tell him I can do it because this , or because that, a skilled english spoken person can secure the deal in 20 mn, and I can use those 4 hours to do what I am good to do. IF you add a project manager who is clearly understand the client project, and choose the intermediaries steps for me with the usual time to reach those goals, so it make life very easy. A basic shopping card can be handle in 10 days, I know that is negociated around 1 000$ in USA (the society with who I collabore have that kind of pricing), that is only a very small point, I am no developping much because that is 'informal' speaking.

The problem is mostly people who have the money and who decided to come in thailand, do not have the need to be bothered again (if not they will simply stay in their own country, they are here to be relax). Those who could have the need to start something, mostly (as I need precedently) prefer to waste their time arguing against the first group (you know, bitter, jealous, the 'why him and not me' human behavior ...).

But yes there is a capacity for not only money invested, but also about knowleges invested.

To mix with the concept of 'investment group', why not do it, but stipulate the investments must be made mainly with the expat community, and any investment will be followup by the group advice and expertise. In the case I describe, let say the investment is ridiculous (in fact there is no need for investment I can still handle 300 or 500 $ for the capital), but how to get PR? How to get a project manager? How to hire someone who will obviously work 20 mn a day or so? A concerned investissor will do those 20 mn of work, because even if it's 5 $ as investment, that is his own money, so I will do it.

Hope I could explain better, hope it will give ideas to some of you. I wished to make it truth, but life is for me like pool game. I love to play pool, I really do. But at the end of the game it's always me who smile and give 20 bht to the waitress. In life there is looser and winner. It's important to know where you belongs, obviously I am in the earlier. But the idea in worth to be tried ... by others, not me alas.

[~G~]

So yes sad, because there is potential (ideas, funding, administrative capacity), but it look like success will never come, because some do not want to share the cake with others (the $ 5 000 ideas is OBVIOUSLY a way to keep oportunity to high class retired/corporate who in fact have no need to do it (they can PAY for a legit broker for exemple).

Sound sad or bitter? Yeah...

Consider yourself lucky for not being able to participate. Which cake? this is going to be a black hole.

Business = risk. It's a part of the equation. When you start any business, you risk your money, your reputation, even your ability to create anotherone later (in my country, if you fail you will not be able to retry, it's called 'failli', and you are banned to do any kind of gestion, even member of a board of any associations).

What me react (too violently I agree), is the main concept there is need of lot of money to start something (I justgiven a concrete exemple where the STARTING capital can be 300$ (3 associates at 100 $ each)). My opinion is there is no real need for capital money, but capital in expertise , it's also why I pointed on the partnership limited.

My opinion, and I think someone who have common sense will share it, is if you can invest 5 000 or 10 000 $, and if this money is clean; you will NOT use a mere investing group to get some mere dividends, but simply go to see a professional (broker, bank ...). It let me think there is also a need for what is called 'Business Angel', people who have the expertise, the time (retired), the will (young retired who are ready to start a new challenge) with challenge spirit (for a PR retired at 45 y old, put 100$ in a venture is nothing, it's less than what he pay in estaurant when he treat his friends, but put himself again in the middle of the turmoil, created something from scratch, nuture it as a new born, ....).

I given an exemple because I know well that field, I know the potentiallities, I can give figure for the last 4 years, I know also the downfalls, the bottleneck, the potentials and existing problems. I suppose some others exemples can be given, assuming IT is not the only field where farangs have an expertise and can create winning venture, not based on money, but based on the knowledges and experience, and with hight return.

About dogy, the only time I met that word before, it was used as a special style related to kama soutra, so I suppose in the contest the meaning must be different. But that is also something who go to my point : mostly societies who outsource IT projects do communication in english, so a skilled english native can harvest more easily projects than a english non speaking person as I. So rather than spend 4 hours to try to understand what the client neeed and to try to tell him I can do it because this , or because that, a skilled english spoken person can secure the deal in 20 mn, and I can use those 4 hours to do what I am good to do. IF you add a project manager who is clearly understand the client project, and choose the intermediaries steps for me with the usual time to reach those goals, so it make life very easy. A basic shopping card can be handle in 10 days, I know that is negociated around 1 000$ in USA (the society with who I collabore have that kind of pricing), that is only a very small point, I am no developping much because that is 'informal' speaking.

The problem is mostly people who have the money and who decided to come in thailand, do not have the need to be bothered again (if not they will simply stay in their own country, they are here to be relax). Those who could have the need to start something, mostly (as I need precedently) prefer to waste their time arguing against the first group (you know, bitter, jealous, the 'why him and not me' human behavior ...).

But yes there is a capacity for not only money invested, but also about knowleges invested.

To mix with the concept of 'investment group', why not do it, but stipulate the investments must be made mainly with the expat community, and any investment will be followup by the group advice and expertise. In the case I describe, let say the investment is ridiculous (in fact there is no need for investment I can still handle 300 or 500 $ for the capital), but how to get PR? How to get a project manager? How to hire someone who will obviously work 20 mn a day or so? A concerned investissor will do those 20 mn of work, because even if it's 5 $ as investment, that is his own money, so I will do it.

Hope I could explain better, hope it will give ideas to some of you. I wished to make it truth, but life is for me like pool game. I love to play pool, I really do. But at the end of the game it's always me who smile and give 20 bht to the waitress. In life there is looser and winner. It's important to know where you belongs, obviously I am in the earlier. But the idea in worth to be tried ... by others, not me alas.

Sting,

I am sorry, but your post is pretty long, I find it quite difficult to read. I did read you previous post regarding IT outsourcing and I think it is much more realistic and viable than other ideas presented in this thread.

[sting01]

Sorry to be talkative, fact is I am in wierd mood and it make me speak too much.

Fact, that is viable, because I do outsourcing work in thailand since 4 years, obviously I earn my living by that, obviously I know what it should be to be a real business.

Fact also, in 4 years I found a lot people who were pity me enought to offer me 300 $ as financing, but I never found people will ing to work to make it working. So I never accepted the 300 bucks, because it's senseless (anyway I have it on my own lol, and it must be taken as a joke). So yes, that is a real case, real situation. Let say I + a PR + a project manager = 50 000 or 60 000 bht earning per month, certainly more after a while. Investment : nib, nada, nothing. But expertise, time, work, meetings, discussion with clients, explanation to the coder (I) , follow up of the project daily (even 5 mn) .... No salary but dividende. Evidently no WP, but as it's a legal investment, those in need can still use the company document to get a tourist visa, the others (retired, or corporate) will not care about visa.

[Carmine6]

I'm actually in an investment club. The club is in it's 8th year and believe me, investing by comittee does not work. You're better off just investing in mutual funds and letting professionals make the decisions.

Why? Because no one is accountable for performance and there's a wide variation in knowledge and abilities. Both credit and blame is shared so people don't do as much research as they should and votes are often very uninformed. The most informed and insightful analysis can be out-voted by other members who don't know what they're talking about.

Not to say that that you couldn't get lucky and put together a group of dedicated and knowledgeable people, but odds are pretty slim.

If, however you view it as a social club, and then invest on the side, then maybe you have something. My own portfolio has slaughtered the performance of the club, and my belief is the individual portolios of all other members has done the same. As a group we make terrible decisions, but individually I think we do pretty well. We all stick with the club because it's a great group of guys.

[thohts]

I'm actually in an investment club. The club is in it's 8th year and believe me, investing by comittee does not work. You're better off just investing in mutual funds and letting professionals make the decisions.

Why? Because no one is accountable for performance and there's a wide variation in knowledge and abilities. Both credit and blame is shared so people don't do as much research as they should and votes are often very uninformed. The most informed and insightful analysis can be out-voted by other members who don't know what they're talking about.

Not to say that that you couldn't get lucky and put together a group of dedicated and knowledgeable people, but odds are pretty slim.

If, however you view it as a social club, and then invest on the side, then maybe you have something. My own portfolio has slaughtered the performance of the club, and my belief is the individual portolios of all other members has done the same. As a group we make terrible decisions, but individually I think we do pretty well. We all stick with the club because it's a great group of guys.

Most sensible suggestion I've heard so far (even from myself!)

..And if a couple of members of the club want to 'go in together' on something, who's to stop them?