Red-shirt rally at Aksa Road just a rehearsal: organisers

[WoopyDoo]

If this government is still in power by the end of April.

I will walk up and down Sukhumvit for 5 hours completely naked apart from wearing this.

[fcbkk]

80,000? Is that what "people power" really means?

Ignore it if you prefer, but I think you know what might be about to happen.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ignore what? That they only got 80,000 there when they were predicting 500,000 at one stage, and 200,000 just a couple of days ago?

No, ignore how strongly the government's supporters feel about threat of a judicial coup.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

"propaganda power" might be the more appropriate description.

it is hard to ignore how systematic the spin of a "judicial coup" has escalated over the last weeks and months, and no doubt a tiny minority will be prepared and ready to escalate the trouble when the moment arrives that "justice" and "accountability" can no longer be ignored.

Propaganda is used by politicians across the globe so nothing new there. "Spin" or otherwise, the possibility of a judicial coup is there.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Seems you intentionally ignored the point - who said or thought propaganda was new?

If you are after new news, then why did you post your response, because what is new about that?

What matters is, how propaganda is used here and now (and for what purpose).

The term "people power" seems way off the mark, considering it is a tiny minority who are willing to support violence and intimidation as a means to avoid being held accountable.

A judicial coup is only a possibility for those that want to believe it, or perhaps were spun successfully.

[MGP]

Look at the Cult of Leadership pictures hanging from their bags

There were a lot of posts regarding fake monks from the red supporters when monks supported Suthep and when the reds beat up a monk.

I know MGP that you have a good knowledge of Dhamma so would you be prepared to give an opinion on the monks we see in these photos with things like which sect they may belong to, any specific temple in any particular part of the country ?

They have not shaved their heads for this important public appearance, as you point out the badges on the bags seem out of place then there is the 'monk' on the right on the truck with the tats and sunglasses who looks as if he would be more at home in the BKK Hilton than a temple.

They look from the group that attended the Red Shirt concentration at Don Muang Stadium last November.

They are from the Dhammakaya donate-me-your-money cult, closely linked to the Shinawatra business.

This picture is from the Don Muang Stadium rally:

Edited April 6, 2014 by MGP

[Pimay1]

80,000? Is that what "people power" really means?

Ignore it if you prefer, but I think you know what might be about to happen.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ignore what? That they only got 80,000 there when they were predicting 500,000 at one stage, and 200,000 just a couple of days ago?

No, ignore how strongly the government's supporters feel about threat of a judicial coup.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Oh no Mr. Bill. Another judicial coup poster. Some would argue there has been an Executive Coup going on here for quite a long time. With the creation of the UDD the opposition party is prohibited from campaigning in the UDD controlled provinces by threats of violence if they go there. Democracy in action.

Executive coup (a.k.a. autogolpe): In democracies, an abrupt change in rules or procedures by the incumbent chief executive that effectively concentrates power in his or her hands and short-circuits electoral competition.

I understand the concept of an executive coup, but the example you provide to illustrate that this is happening in Thailand in my opinion is weak. The definition you use points to "abrupt changes in rules and procedure". Can you be more specific in terms of what abrupt changes in rules and procedure have occurred. I think good solid examples would strengthen your argument.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Please check back tomorrow morning. I'll be happy to oblige and respond to your request. Now I have to go to a wedding with my old girlfriend.

[northernjohn]

Look at the Cult of Leadership pictures hanging from their bags

There were a lot of posts regarding fake monks from the red supporters when monks supported Suthep and when the reds beat up a monk.

I know MGP that you have a good knowledge of Dhamma so would you be prepared to give an opinion on the monks we see in these photos with things like which sect they may belong to, any specific temple in any particular part of the country ?

They have not shaved their heads for this important public appearance, as you point out the badges on the bags seem out of place then there is the 'monk' on the right on the truck with the tats and sunglasses who looks as if he would be more at home in the BKK Hilton than a temple.

Do you mean the one smoking a cigarette?

Not a Monk expert but I thought there robe's were longer.

Have to look next time I run into them.

[than]

Look at the Cult of Leadership pictures hanging from their bags

There were a lot of posts regarding fake monks from the red supporters when monks supported Suthep and when the reds beat up a monk.

I know MGP that you have a good knowledge of Dhamma so would you be prepared to give an opinion on the monks we see in these photos with things like which sect they may belong to, any specific temple in any particular part of the country ?

They have not shaved their heads for this important public appearance, as you point out the badges on the bags seem out of place then there is the 'monk' on the right on the truck with the tats and sunglasses who looks as if he would be more at home in the BKK Hilton than a temple.

Do you mean the one smoking a cigarette?

Not a Monk expert but I thought there robe's were longer.

Have to look next time I run into them.

Fake monk ?

[JesseFrank]

So 4 hardcore red supporters are shining by their absence in this thread, mysteriously 2 new hardcore red supporters have signed up with TV and a 3rd one has woken up from a 4 year sleep ( Blumenkraft ).

Which one are we still missing ?

[mrtoad]

Well Pipkins or whatever he is calling himself These days seems to be quiet, as is Moonao. The usual are still around such as poor teacher, fabby and pdbkk.

[Skywalker69]

I see the reds are showing photoshopped images of large crowds using distorted angles and manipulated perspective techniques that only complete morons would not notice as being tampered with.

There were 10,000 there at best.

Like I said.... only complete morons would be fooled.

Who on here was fooled then???????

Yes, the Bangkok Post and The Nation's images of the protest are clearly faked and they're in Thaksin's pocket.

Give it a rest dude.

Those images are not owned by the BKP and the Nation DUDE!!!

They were both doing the facebook rounds last night... DUDE!

This one has been 'perspective distorted' deliberately to make the foreground wider and pull the distance out a lot further to give the impression of a lot more content... It is just stretched out that way to fool idiots. That is why the horizon is now curved.

Also you can clearly see all the very large gaps between the people... take 2 minutes to count 100 of the people and then extrapolate that across the whole picture and you will get no more than a few thousand.

They will have likely added a lot more people in the background to make 2000 look like 5000.

Also the clever angle they took it from to hide the big gaps in the crowd.... (closer to the ground).

Here is the true image taken from a better angle that shows the gaps, and the picture has not been perspective distorted.

This was taken at 17.10 just before it got dark, so not much time for a massive increase when your doctored picture was also taken in daylight.

BUSTED!!!!!

BKP picture.

Again... angle deliberately set to hid gaps and perspective once again manipulated to make it look a lot wider and a lot longer.

Look ar the left crowd.... The distance from the stage to the set of white canopies along the left edge of the site... look at it in both pictures, see how far back those canopies now appear with perspective manipulation.

These pictures are for idiots and morons to believe. But a trained eye will spot a fake a long way off.

DUDE!

the true image taken from a better angle

Is it possible to have that image in jpg? I would like to have it downloaded.

Look at this image the mother of all photoshopped images, no more wite canvas roofs, no more toilets.

[fcbkk]

Oh no Mr. Bill. Another judicial coup poster. Some would argue there has been an Executive Coup going on here for quite a long time. With the creation of the UDD the opposition party is prohibited from campaigning in the UDD controlled provinces by threats of violence if they go there. Democracy in action.

Executive coup (a.k.a. autogolpe): In democracies, an abrupt change in rules or procedures by the incumbent chief executive that effectively concentrates power in his or her hands and short-circuits electoral competition.

I understand the concept of an executive coup, but the example you provide to illustrate that this is happening in Thailand in my opinion is weak. The definition you use points to "abrupt changes in rules and procedure". Can you be more specific in terms of what abrupt changes in rules and procedure have occurred. I think good solid examples would strengthen your argument.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Please check back tomorrow morning. I'll be happy to oblige and respond to your request. Now I have to go to a wedding with my old girlfriend.

Hope you don't mind if i add 1 point in response to blumenkraft's question this evening already.

My 1st point would be the Amnesty Bill. An amnesty had been discussed for some time as widely acceptable for the vast majority of Thais - across all political divides - as long as it was to cover minor offences, and would not let off major perpetrators, including those in charge.

But the actual Amnesty Bill had strangely changed to a version that not only covered those in charge, it was also sufficiently back-dated to pardon some 16000 corruption cases overall (or so it was estimated), severe human rights violations (including those committed under Thaksin's tenure) etc. Besides this, votes were cast on behalf of other MP's, rights to opposition speech/debate time was obstructed or refused by illegitime means etc.

This is the 1st example - and i guess Pimay1 likewise will have more tomorrow - but I would ask you to provide a sincere answer in response to example #1 first - was this abrupt enough, and/or sufficiently in breach of rules and procedures to serve as an acceptable example for you?

If not, then kindly provide a well-reasoned argument as to what their intention might have been at the time.

Edited April 6, 2014 by fcbkk

[blumenkraft]

So 4 hardcore red supporters are shining by their absence in this thread, mysteriously 2 new hardcore red supporters have signed up with TV and a 3rd one has woken up from a 4 year sleep ( Blumenkraft ).

Which one are we still missing ?

I wouldn't call myself a hardcore red supporter, although those types of labels probably make it easier for you eh? What would you call yourself JesseFrank?

And strangely, your profile says you've only been member since Jan 2014 - hardly makes you a veteran does it JesseFrank?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[MGP]

Those images are not owned by the BKP and the Nation DUDE!!!

They were both doing the facebook rounds last night... DUDE!

This one has been 'perspective distorted' deliberately to make the foreground wider and pull the distance out a lot further to give the impression of a lot more content... It is just stretched out that way to fool idiots. That is why the horizon is now curved.

Also you can clearly see all the very large gaps between the people... take 2 minutes to count 100 of the people and then extrapolate that across the whole picture and you will get no more than a few thousand.

They will have likely added a lot more people in the background to make 2000 look like 5000.

Also the clever angle they took it from to hide the big gaps in the crowd.... (closer to the ground).

Here is the true image taken from a better angle that shows the gaps, and the picture has not been perspective distorted.

This was taken at 17.10 just before it got dark, so not much time for a massive increase when your doctored picture was also taken in daylight.

BUSTED!!!!!

BKP picture.

Again... angle deliberately set to hid gaps and perspective once again manipulated to make it look a lot wider and a lot longer.

Look ar the left crowd.... The distance from the stage to the set of white canopies along the left edge of the site... look at it in both pictures, see how far back those canopies now appear with perspective manipulation.

These pictures are for idiots and morons to believe. But a trained eye will spot a fake a long way off.

DUDE!

the true image taken from a better angle

Is it possible to have that image in jpg? I would like to have it downloaded.

Look at this image the mother of all photoshopped images, no more wite canvas roofs, no more toilets.

Have a look a this one.Red Dwarfs are growing!

[winstonc]

Those images are not owned by the BKP and the Nation DUDE!!!

They were both doing the facebook rounds last night... DUDE!

This one has been 'perspective distorted' deliberately to make the foreground wider and pull the distance out a lot further to give the impression of a lot more content... It is just stretched out that way to fool idiots. That is why the horizon is now curved.

Also you can clearly see all the very large gaps between the people... take 2 minutes to count 100 of the people and then extrapolate that across the whole picture and you will get no more than a few thousand.

They will have likely added a lot more people in the background to make 2000 look like 5000.

Also the clever angle they took it from to hide the big gaps in the crowd.... (closer to the ground).

Here is the true image taken from a better angle that shows the gaps, and the picture has not been perspective distorted.

This was taken at 17.10 just before it got dark, so not much time for a massive increase when your doctored picture was also taken in daylight.

BUSTED!!!!!

BKP picture.

Again... angle deliberately set to hid gaps and perspective once again manipulated to make it look a lot wider and a lot longer.

Look ar the left crowd.... The distance from the stage to the set of white canopies along the left edge of the site... look at it in both pictures, see how far back those canopies now appear with perspective manipulation.

These pictures are for idiots and morons to believe. But a trained eye will spot a fake a long way off.

DUDE!

the true image taken from a better angle

Is it possible to have that image in jpg? I would like to have it downloaded.

Look at this image the mother of all photoshopped images, no more wite canvas roofs, no more toilets.

Have a look a this one.Red Dwarfs are growing!

where are all the tents all of a sudden its really embarrassing to see these vegetables trying there hardest..but what do you expect from morons sorry desperado,s

[blumenkraft]

Oh no Mr. Bill. Another judicial coup poster. Some would argue there has been an Executive Coup going on here for quite a long time. With the creation of the UDD the opposition party is prohibited from campaigning in the UDD controlled provinces by threats of violence if they go there. Democracy in action.

Executive coup (a.k.a. autogolpe): In democracies, an abrupt change in rules or procedures by the incumbent chief executive that effectively concentrates power in his or her hands and short-circuits electoral competition.

I understand the concept of an executive coup, but the example you provide to illustrate that this is happening in Thailand in my opinion is weak. The definition you use points to "abrupt changes in rules and procedure". Can you be more specific in terms of what abrupt changes in rules and procedure have occurred. I think good solid examples would strengthen your argument.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Please check back tomorrow morning. I'll be happy to oblige and respond to your request. Now I have to go to a wedding with my old girlfriend.

Hope you don't mind if i add 1 point in response to blumenkraft's question this evening already.

My 1st point would be the Amnesty Bill. An amnesty had been discussed for some time as widely acceptable for the vast majority of Thais - across all political divides - as long as it was to cover minor offences, and would not let off major perpetrators, including those in charge.

But the actual Amnesty Bill had strangely changed to a version that not only covered those in charge, it was also sufficiently back-dated to pardon some 16000 corruption cases overall (or so it was estimated), severe human rights violations (including those committed under Thaksin's tenure) etc. Besides this, votes were cast on behalf of other MP's, rights to opposition speech/debate time was obstructed or refused by illegitime means etc.

This is the 1st example - and i guess Pimay1 likewise will have more tomorrow - but I would ask you to provide a sincere answer in response to example #1 first - was this abrupt enough, and/or sufficiently in breach of rules and procedures to serve as an acceptable example for you?

If not, then kindly provide a well-reasoned argument as to what their intention might have been at the time.

I'm not personally a fan of the Amnesty Bill. It may originally have been well intended, but it was poorly thought through and was subsequently used by both sides to forward their own political agendas. Ultimately, I feel it was a genuine but ill-advised attempt at kick starting some sort of reconciliation. For all it's failings, I don't accept that it was an attempt to short circuit electoral competition.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[than]

Jatuporn made his final speech, It seem that this protest not reach the success that it will.

He announce another rally the day of Constitution court will give their judgment on Thawil case...... very amazing last week he said that in make a long protest just after songkran holidays. It seems he change mind quickly.

[fcbkk]

80,000? Is that what "people power" really means?

Ignore it if you prefer, but I think you know what might be about to happen.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ignore what? That they only got 80,000 there when they were predicting 500,000 at one stage, and 200,000 just a couple of days ago?

No, ignore how strongly the government's supporters feel about threat of a judicial coup.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

"propaganda power" might be the more appropriate description.

it is hard to ignore how systematic the spin of a "judicial coup" has escalated over the last weeks and months, and no doubt a tiny minority will be prepared and ready to escalate the trouble when the moment arrives that "justice" and "accountability" can no longer be ignored.

Propaganda is used by politicians across the globe so nothing new there. "Spin" or otherwise, the possibility of a judicial coup is there.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Seems you intentionally ignored the point - who said or thought propaganda was new?

If you are after new news, then why did you post your response, because what is new about that?

What matters is, how propaganda is used here and now (and for what purpose).

The term "people power" seems way off the mark, considering it is a tiny minority who are willing to support violence and intimidation as a means to avoid being held accountable.

A judicial coup is only a possibility for those that want to believe it, or perhaps were spun successfully.

Yes, I thought it was a moot point. Propaganda is used by all political movements and even more so in times of volatility. If you are suggesting that the government supporters are led completely by this propaganda then I disagree. I sense a growing and genuine feeling of injustice amongst the government supporters in that they feel their democratic rights are being taken away from them again. You look upon them as victims of propaganda - I don't.

And I don't understand your point about a judicial coup only being possible if you want to believe it. What does that mean?

Sorry part of your response is not clear - you thought what point was moot?

No, i did not suggest that government supporters are led completely by this propaganda.

It seems you deflect from the point (again) - is this conscious and intentional?

For a start I would not try to fit 1 explanation to many people ["all" government supporters], with their own different agendas and intentions of why they support - or used to support - the government, and no doubt there are many people with grievances, of which some are genuine, or valid, and others are not.

There is substantial (and systematic) propaganda here and now, that is used to fuel general feelings of injustice (whether genuine or not), with the obvious aim of escalating dissent (successfully so), and fully conscious of the potentially deadly consquence. Or how else would you explain public statements that glorify "death for democracy", and do so in a much more visible and vocal fashion than denouncing deadly attacks in public?

The vast majority of Thais (on all sides of the divide) are way too smart to fall for all this, but a tiny minority is certainly influenced by this propaganda, and yes that does make them victims, but anyhow, it does not excuse them from responsibility for their actions.

Along with the vast majority of people (across political divides and geographies) who are victims of the escalating situation. So no, i do not look "upon" nor "them". I truly hope that a genuine alternative with the help of real "people power" can grow out of this mess, even if it may need a generation change.

But what we see in this UDD rally is not "people power", and I dare say the number of people supporting their actions is shrinking drastically, not growing (and that is why the propaganda is getting more and more desperate). Feelings of injustice have grown, but this is not limited to any one side of the divide.

A judicial coup is only possible if you wish to believe the propaganda, or arrive independently at the same conclusion as the propaganda wishes people to believe if that is possible. If you do support the concept of Law - and being held accountable for breaking the law - then how could this equate to a coup?

[fcbkk]

Hope you don't mind if i add 1 point in response to blumenkraft's question this evening already.

My 1st point would be the Amnesty Bill. An amnesty had been discussed for some time as widely acceptable for the vast majority of Thais - across all political divides - as long as it was to cover minor offences, and would not let off major perpetrators, including those in charge.

But the actual Amnesty Bill had strangely changed to a version that not only covered those in charge, it was also sufficiently back-dated to pardon some 16000 corruption cases overall (or so it was estimated), severe human rights violations (including those committed under Thaksin's tenure) etc. Besides this, votes were cast on behalf of other MP's, rights to opposition speech/debate time was obstructed or refused by illegitime means etc.

This is the 1st example - and i guess Pimay1 likewise will have more tomorrow - but I would ask you to provide a sincere answer in response to example #1 first - was this abrupt enough, and/or sufficiently in breach of rules and procedures to serve as an acceptable example for you?

If not, then kindly provide a well-reasoned argument as to what their intention might have been at the time.

I'm not personally a fan of the Amnesty Bill. It may originally have been well intended, but it was poorly thought through and was subsequently used by both sides to forward their own political agendas. Ultimately, I feel it was a genuine but ill-advised attempt at kick starting some sort of reconciliation. For all it's failings, I don't accept that it was an attempt to short circuit electoral competition.

We can agree to disagree perhaps, but i do not accept your response as well reasoned.

IF their intention for an amnesty bill was genuinely in the spirit of reconciliation, then how do you explain what happened?

How can genuine intention lead to a vote for a fundamentally different version of Bill, that was known unacceptable, even to a majority of their own supporters? How can you fail to reason this through?

Well, let me repeat the question and i appreciate if you answer directly - what in your opinion was their own agenda if it was so obviously not reconciliation?

It is a fact that rights for debate and vote (for or against the bill) were violated by abrupt changes of procedures and rules. Had the bill gone through then it would have pardoned a certain someone, along with many other criminals, and led to a return of confiscated assets. Would that have helped to concentrate power in your opinion?

(sorry had to remove some of the preceeding quotes as the forum system here limits the number of quotes permitted...)

[Pimay1]

80,000? Is that what "people power" really means?

Ignore it if you prefer, but I think you know what might be about to happen.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ignore what? That they only got 80,000 there when they were predicting 500,000 at one stage, and 200,000 just a couple of days ago?

No, ignore how strongly the government's supporters feel about threat of a judicial coup.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Oh no Mr. Bill. Another judicial coup poster. Some would argue there has been an Executive Coup going on here for quite a long time. With the creation of the UDD the opposition party is prohibited from campaigning in the UDD controlled provinces by threats of violence if they go there. Democracy in action.

Executive coup (a.k.a. autogolpe): In democracies, an abrupt change in rules or procedures by the incumbent chief executive that effectively concentrates power in his or her hands and short-circuits electoral competition.

I understand the concept of an executive coup, but the example you provide to illustrate that this is happening in Thailand in my opinion is weak. The definition you use points to "abrupt changes in rules and procedure". Can you be more specific in terms of what abrupt changes in rules and procedure have occurred. I think good solid examples would strengthen your argument.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ok now I can respond typing with a hangover from all the Leo at the wedding last night.

I tried to find a definition of what has taken place here in the last few years concerning short-circuiting electoral competition and this is the closest one I could find. I’m not going to get into the vote buying issue as that has been a procedure for ages. Of course the actual rules and procedures of holding an election are dictated by the constitution and they have not changed to my knowledge. You may argue that makes my reference to an executive coup null and void. I don’t think so for the following reason. My understanding of the definition of executive coup not only pertains to the actual laws stating x number of days for a candidate to register, x number of days to campaign and voting will be held on day x.

It might be a stretch to define what has happened as procedures by the incumbent chief executive that effectively concentrates power in his or her hands and short-circuits electoral competition but again I don’t think so. In a democracy every candidate is free to campaign in any district, city, village or hamlet they so choose without fear of bodily harm or their vehicles being destroyed. There is not a group of people that openly threat candidates on the radio and at rallies saying do not come here you are not welcome. If you come here you do it at your own peril. It used to be this way here in Thailand until the inception of the UDD. The UDD was seen by the ruling government as a means to an end. Radical leaders were put into place to solidify the UDD against any ruling government opposition. The leaders played the “you are poor, have been exploited, and we are your liberators” card. Yes they were poor, and had been exploited. This is exactly what the people wanted to hear. But the ruling party had no intentions of liberating them. Their plan was to exploit them even more for their own benefit. As time went on the leaders of the UDD became bolder and started to encourage violence against any opposition and the ruling party encouraged this by being silent. Now the opposition parties are afraid to campaign in the UDD strongholds which make up a large percentage of the voting block and rightly so. Thus concentrating power in the hands of the ruling government and short-circuiting electoral competition.

[H1w4yR1da]

Don't throw dirt on the memory of Andreas Baader and Ulrike Meinhof and the Baader Meinhof Group, by comparing them to these bunch of Red Killers.

Never thought I'd live to see the day someone supports these murderous terrorists.

]

Baader Meinhof never intended for anyone to get killed and always made warning calls, before detonating a bomb anywhere. A newspaper boss told his staff to ignore the calls and people got killed. That's a lot different from these murderous Red Thugs, who have been assassinating people on purpose.

What an absolute load of rubbish!

"They never intended for anyone to get killed."

Are you serious or just a little retarded?

I guess those 34 victims were ALL killed accidentally?

Try using the Search button. There's a whole wealth of information out there in internet land to educate the ignorant.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

[AleG]

Hope you don't mind if i add 1 point in response to blumenkraft's question this evening already.

My 1st point would be the Amnesty Bill. An amnesty had been discussed for some time as widely acceptable for the vast majority of Thais - across all political divides - as long as it was to cover minor offences, and would not let off major perpetrators, including those in charge.

But the actual Amnesty Bill had strangely changed to a version that not only covered those in charge, it was also sufficiently back-dated to pardon some 16000 corruption cases overall (or so it was estimated), severe human rights violations (including those committed under Thaksin's tenure) etc. Besides this, votes were cast on behalf of other MP's, rights to opposition speech/debate time was obstructed or refused by illegitime means etc.

This is the 1st example - and i guess Pimay1 likewise will have more tomorrow - but I would ask you to provide a sincere answer in response to example #1 first - was this abrupt enough, and/or sufficiently in breach of rules and procedures to serve as an acceptable example for you?

If not, then kindly provide a well-reasoned argument as to what their intention might have been at the time.

I'm not personally a fan of the Amnesty Bill. It may originally have been well intended, but it was poorly thought through and was subsequently used by both sides to forward their own political agendas. Ultimately, I feel it was a genuine but ill-advised attempt at kick starting some sort of reconciliation. For all it's failings, I don't accept that it was an attempt to short circuit electoral competition.

We can agree to disagree perhaps, but i do not accept your response as well reasoned.

IF their intention for an amnesty bill was genuinely in the spirit of reconciliation, then how do you explain what happened?

How can genuine intention lead to a vote for a fundamentally different version of Bill, that was known unacceptable, even to a majority of their own supporters? How can you fail to reason this through?

Well, let me repeat the question and i appreciate if you answer directly - what in your opinion was their own agenda if it was so obviously not reconciliation?

It is a fact that rights for debate and vote (for or against the bill) were violated by abrupt changes of procedures and rules. Had the bill gone through then it would have pardoned a certain someone, along with many other criminals, and led to a return of confiscated assets. Would that have helped to concentrate power in your opinion?

(sorry had to remove some of the preceeding quotes as the forum system here limits the number of quotes permitted...)

The motive for the changes in the "Amnesty Bill" was, according to the MP that introduced the changes, that he met Thaksin in Hong Kong and he told him he wanted to come back to Thailand (I can try to look up the news article later if you want). So no, nothing to do with reconcilliation.

[fcbkk]

Hope you don't mind if i add 1 point in response to blumenkraft's question this evening already.

My 1st point would be the Amnesty Bill. An amnesty had been discussed for some time as widely acceptable for the vast majority of Thais - across all political divides - as long as it was to cover minor offences, and would not let off major perpetrators, including those in charge.

But the actual Amnesty Bill had strangely changed to a version that not only covered those in charge, it was also sufficiently back-dated to pardon some 16000 corruption cases overall (or so it was estimated), severe human rights violations (including those committed under Thaksin's tenure) etc. Besides this, votes were cast on behalf of other MP's, rights to opposition speech/debate time was obstructed or refused by illegitime means etc.

This is the 1st example - and i guess Pimay1 likewise will have more tomorrow - but I would ask you to provide a sincere answer in response to example #1 first - was this abrupt enough, and/or sufficiently in breach of rules and procedures to serve as an acceptable example for you?

If not, then kindly provide a well-reasoned argument as to what their intention might have been at the time.

I'm not personally a fan of the Amnesty Bill. It may originally have been well intended, but it was poorly thought through and was subsequently used by both sides to forward their own political agendas. Ultimately, I feel it was a genuine but ill-advised attempt at kick starting some sort of reconciliation. For all it's failings, I don't accept that it was an attempt to short circuit electoral competition.

We can agree to disagree perhaps, but i do not accept your response as well reasoned.

IF their intention for an amnesty bill was genuinely in the spirit of reconciliation, then how do you explain what happened?

How can genuine intention lead to a vote for a fundamentally different version of Bill, that was known unacceptable, even to a majority of their own supporters? How can you fail to reason this through?

Well, let me repeat the question and i appreciate if you answer directly - what in your opinion was their own agenda if it was so obviously not reconciliation?

It is a fact that rights for debate and vote (for or against the bill) were violated by abrupt changes of procedures and rules. Had the bill gone through then it would have pardoned a certain someone, along with many other criminals, and led to a return of confiscated assets. Would that have helped to concentrate power in your opinion?

(sorry had to remove some of the preceeding quotes as the forum system here limits the number of quotes permitted...)

The motive for the changes in the "Amnesty Bill" was, according to the MP that introduced the changes, that he met Thaksin in Hong Kong and he told him he wanted to come back to Thailand (I can try to look up the news article later if you want). So no, nothing to do with reconcilliation.

Interesting, i did not know there had been an open admission of this. it sounds like it contains truth, but also sounds like perhaps not the full truth. If it was 'just' for the homecoming they could have tried in different way without quite so substantial changes and many years back-dated you would think!? Anyhow, would very much like to see the article, feel free to post a link or send as PM if you have it at hand, otherwise i am happy to google myself. thank you.

But besides this, i asked because i am genuinely interested in what other explanation other people may come up with as to what their intention behind this was, as i cannot think of a different explanation that makes any sense. so i am looking forward to blumenkraft's response.

[AleG]

The motive for the changes in the "Amnesty Bill" was, according to the MP that introduced the changes, that he met Thaksin in Hong Kong and he told him he wanted to come back to Thailand (I can try to look up the news article later if you want). So no, nothing to do with reconcilliation.

Interesting, i did not know there had been an open admission of this. it sounds like it contains truth, but also sounds like perhaps not the full truth. If it was 'just' for the homecoming they could have tried in different way without quite so substantial changes and many years back-dated you would think!? Anyhow, would very much like to see the article, feel free to post a link or send as PM if you have it at hand, otherwise i am happy to google myself. thank you.

But besides this, i asked because i am genuinely interested in what other explanation other people may come up with as to what their intention behind this was, as i cannot think of a different explanation that makes any sense. so i am looking forward to blumenkraft's response.

Link to the news article, the same was also reported on other media, IIRC:

Prayuth said he met Thaksin in Hong Kong several months ago, before he proposed the change to Worachai's draft.

"Once I met him, he said 'Brother, I want to go home now'. He said just that, and I knew immediately that he would like to return to Thailand through a proper channel. And a channel that can help him return is amnesty. So, it has been on my mind all the time that I must help him come home."

Prayuth was the head of the committee overseeing the changes to the "Amnesty" Bill. That bill was the spark that started the powder trail, if things go boom we can trace the origin to 'Brother, I want to go home now'

[blumenkraft]

Just a quick repsonse as I'd like to bring things back on track if I may. I'm not looking to discuss the Amnesty Bill per se. It was offered up to me as an example of the government attempting an 'executive coup'. I questioned this and I'm still not sure, even had it been passed, how it would have short circuited electoral competition. So, I'm still looking for any evidence to suggest the government is attempting an executive coup? If anyone is interested in continuing this discussion I'd be more than happy to re-engage.

[maccaroni man]

One thing for sure it is always easy to locate a red shirt rally sight after they have left. Just look for a ton of garbage and litter. IMO this behavior speaks more loudly than any words they speak concerning their care for Thailand. Absolutely disgusting.

[kkerry]

One thing for sure it is always easy to locate a red shirt rally sight after they have left. Just look for a ton of garbage and litter. IMO this behavior speaks more loudly than any words they speak concerning their care for Thailand. Absolutely disgusting.

I'm sure Lumpinee looks a treat...

[maccaroni man]

One thing for sure it is always easy to locate a red shirt rally sight after they have left. Just look for a ton of garbage and litter. IMO this behavior speaks more loudly than any words they speak concerning their care for Thailand. Absolutely disgusting.

I'm sure Lumpinee looks a treat...

Thus far the anti Thaksin groups have left several places and had clean up crews immediately after volunteers as a matter of fact that is who cleaned the streets of Bkk after the last red shirt siege

[whybother]

One thing for sure it is always easy to locate a red shirt rally sight after they have left. Just look for a ton of garbage and litter. IMO this behavior speaks more loudly than any words they speak concerning their care for Thailand. Absolutely disgusting.

I'm sure Lumpinee looks a treat...

I walked out into the Asoke protests every morning for more than 6 weeks and it was always clean.

Sent from my phone...

[Rich teacher]

One thing for sure it is always easy to locate a red shirt rally sight after they have left. Just look for a ton of garbage and litter. IMO this behavior speaks more loudly than any words they speak concerning their care for Thailand. Absolutely disgusting.

I'm sure Lumpinee looks a treat...

I walked out into the Asoke protests every morning for more than 6 weeks and it was always clean.

Sent from my phone...

Not hard to clean up after a few dozen people!

[Malone]

The motive for the changes in the "Amnesty Bill" was, according to the MP that introduced the changes, that he met Thaksin in Hong Kong and he told him he wanted to come back to Thailand (I can try to look up the news article later if you want). So no, nothing to do with reconcilliation.

Interesting, i did not know there had been an open admission of this. it sounds like it contains truth, but also sounds like perhaps not the full truth. If it was 'just' for the homecoming they could have tried in different way without quite so substantial changes and many years back-dated you would think!? Anyhow, would very much like to see the article, feel free to post a link or send as PM if you have it at hand, otherwise i am happy to google myself. thank you.

But besides this, i asked because i am genuinely interested in what other explanation other people may come up with as to what their intention behind this was, as i cannot think of a different explanation that makes any sense. so i am looking forward to blumenkraft's response.

Link to the news article, the same was also reported on other media, IIRC:

Prayuth said he met Thaksin in Hong Kong several months ago, before he proposed the change to Worachai's draft.

"Once I met him, he said 'Brother, I want to go home now'. He said just that, and I knew immediately that he would like to return to Thailand through a proper channel. And a channel that can help him return is amnesty. So, it has been on my mind all the time that I must help him come home."

Prayuth was the head of the committee overseeing the changes to the "Amnesty" Bill. That bill was the spark that started the powder trail, if things go boom we can trace the origin to 'Brother, I want to go home now'

One solitary person wanting to go home exonerated of all of his crimes has led to the last six months of deaths and turmoil and upheaval for millions of Thais.

[whybother]

I walked out into the Asoke protests every morning for more than 6 weeks and it was always clean.

Sent from my phone...

Not hard to clean up after a few dozen people!

You'd think that the rich Bangkok amart would leave it to the workers to clean up, but most of the time the thousands that were there cleaned up after themselves.

The red shirts would rather leave it for others to clean up.