Ukraine troops fight to avoid being surrounded by rebels

[Publicus]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

For the same reason why so many think its ok for an illegal over throw

While Crimea held a referendum, is not it what West stands for? Democracy, freedom, etc etc etc?

The post contains a lot of confused thoughts, beliefs, statements.

The West for instance does not support or practice the military participating in organizing of elections, nor does the West conduct elections without any voter enrollment lists which is the way the referendum was conducted in Crimea.

Nor does the West set up voting stations with armed soldiers standing outside and especially inside the voting stations. Nor does the West do these things and pretend it does not do them.

This is how the referendum in the Crimea was conducted, to include no secret ballot.

I heard somewhere the voter participation rate was 140% and that 120% voted yes while only minus 2% voted no. The Russian military said the whole thing was 100% above board.

Someone also said the ballot papers Crimea voters received already had the X marked in the yes box.

[F430murci]

Once again you do not know what weapons rebels posses, you ONLY know what US propaganda machine tells you they posses.

There are no US reporters on the ground, because if there were, they would be reporting shelling of schools and hospitals by Ukrainian military and use of banned shells.

Just like the claims by US propaganda machine that the plane was shot down by Russians, only no evidence and reports show otherwise.

Just like US propaganda machine keeps claiming Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, only no evidence ever produced and now Ukrainian general confirmed that there is no Russian Army.

The other day, Kiev disband Aidan armed militia responsible for burning people alive in Odessa and atrocities all around the country. Kiev did that because UN reports started to question lack of action bringing those to justice, so instead of arresting and charging the militia, they simply disband as if they never existed.

Even IF Russia is supplying or selling weapons to the rebels, it is no different to US supporting and supplying weapons to Ukraine or rebels in Syria or any other place

However if US intentions are as genuine as US is trying to make it out to be, perhaps stopping meddling in Ukrainian affairs and supplying whatever US does would deescalate the situation.

But its pretty clear even to a blind man what the real intentions are.

By he way, Ukraine owes Russia over 5 billion dollars, not to mention all the stolen gas, may be US would like to pick up the tab?

WTH are you talking about? Still don't address any points or questions.

The reports about weapons in possession of rebels are based on pictures and witness reports coming out of the Ukraine. I suppose the American propaganda machine is actually driving and using these weapons with Russian military markings and letting Ukrainians photograph them using these Russian weapons all to blame poor innocent Russia who is doing absolutely nothing except sitting on the sidelines trying to broker a peace deal.

The issue here is whether Russia is invading or at war with Ukraine. US giving weapons to Ukraine to defend itself is a bit different than if US was giving weapons and supplying to troops to the Ukraine to invade Russia.

So it was Russia who decided to stage a coup and supported unlawful take over?

It was Russia who decided to outlaw language spoken for decades?

And it was Russia who refused to pay itself?

Witnesses like whom? Ukrainian Army?

Pictures made by whom? Ukrainian Army?

The very same army responsible for over 5000 deaths, over 1 million refugees ?

Yes, indeed very credible sources

If Russia was invading or at war with Ukraine, Russian flag would have been waving on top of Kiev from April of last year

If Russia was invading, rebels would not be defending ONLY eastern part, but advancing all the way to Kiev, and finally if Russia was invading they would not be be accommodating over 1 million refuges and sending humanitarian aid on regular basis, but sending in troops instead.

Does not take a genius to figure this one out

Does Russia support anti Russian government in Ukraine? Of course not, just like West, mainly US meddles in other countries where government is anti American, again, not exactly rocket science there.

Lol, love how you change of subject and your use of misdirection . . . sounds a bit like Putin controlled media.

Too funny. You guys ask for pictures and satellite images and when shown, it still ain't good enough.

Your logic is also not so good. If Russia wanted to eventually take some or all of the Ukraine back under its wing, it would certainly permit refugees into Mother Russia. COMMON Freakin sense. Russia would also want to keep a low profile. More common freaking sense.

If Russia backed off and did not support the rebels or keep this conflict active, Russia knows that the IMF and EU would step in and provide the Ukraine with the financial support it wants and needs to get back on its feet and rebuild its economy. Russia does not want that. Ukrainians do.

Ukrainians are pissed at Russia, not the US. Level headed Russians with some knowledge of what is actually taking place are pissed at Putin and don't blame the US. Right now, our friends and family in Russia our hurting bad due to the Russian economy and they want Russia out of the Ukraine and want this conflict to end.

Russian public opinion has shifted dramatically in the last few months about the Ukraine. Russians don't want to be involved which is all the more reason that Putin denies any involvement to the point of prosecuting a poor young mother for treason by reporting Russian troop activity.

The hilarious part is . . . Ukrainians know Russian troops are in the Ukraine. Russians know Russian troops are in the Ukraine . . . yet, people like you with large chips on their shoulders against anything US are saying both Russians and Ukrainians are lying and that there are no Russian troops in the Ukraine. Classic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Publicus]

For those bleating that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Russian troops are aiding East Ukraine rebels, perhaps you would like to read what a Ukraine General has to say about the matter...

Ukrainian Government: “No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”. Sanctions against Russia based on Falsehoods

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

In other words: He is explicitly and clearly denying the very basis for the EU’s sanctions against Russia, and for the U.S.’s sanctions against Russia: all of the sanctions against Russia are based on the falsehood that Ukraine is fighting against “the regular units of the Russian army” — i.e., against the Russian-Government-controlled-and-trained fighting forces.

The same cannot be said about US troops on the ground in Ukraine...

Putin is indeed being very cautious this time around, in the present offensive and for good reason.

When the shelling of Mariupol began again last week Nato started talking about cutting off Russia from the SWIFT electronic banking system based in Belgium then the shelling suddenly stopped.

There's no question who is in command of whatever irregular armed forces there are in Ukraine that are fighting against the Ukraine regular military forces.

[PepperMe]

For those bleating that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Russian troops are aiding East Ukraine rebels, perhaps you would like to read what a Ukraine General has to say about the matter...

Ukrainian Government: “No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”. Sanctions against Russia based on Falsehoods

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

In other words: He is explicitly and clearly denying the very basis for the EU’s sanctions against Russia, and for the U.S.’s sanctions against Russia: all of the sanctions against Russia are based on the falsehood that Ukraine is fighting against “the regular units of the Russian army” — i.e., against the Russian-Government-controlled-and-trained fighting forces.

The same cannot be said about US troops on the ground in Ukraine...

Putin is indeed being very cautious this time around, in the present offensive and for good reason.

When the shelling of Mariupol began again last week Nato started talking about cutting off Russia from the SWIFT electronic banking system based in Belgium then the shelling suddenly stopped.

There's no question who is in command of whatever irregular armed forces there are in Ukraine that are fighting against the Ukraine regular military forces.

Once again you show everyone on here that you constantly talk through your back end.

Russia and China are already pulling out of SWIFT it is old news, this has been on the cards since last year.

They are going to produce their own alternative system..... Feel free to look it up on Google.

This payment system will allow other countries to do clandestine trading that the US will not be able to spy on or control.

You will now try to come back with some crap like "China will not dump SWIFT, it will lose lots of trade".... Lol... China trades worldwide, the world needs Chinese manufacturing more than you think.... Everything is done on a price, a good price, that is why hundreds of major US brands are manufactured there.

So please stop your totally brainless comments such as India is not an ally of Russia and are a massive ally of the US...... hahaha.....too funny.

[Publicus]

For those bleating that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Russian troops are aiding East Ukraine rebels, perhaps you would like to read what a Ukraine General has to say about the matter...

Ukrainian Government: “No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”. Sanctions against Russia based on Falsehoods

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

In other words: He is explicitly and clearly denying the very basis for the EU’s sanctions against Russia, and for the U.S.’s sanctions against Russia: all of the sanctions against Russia are based on the falsehood that Ukraine is fighting against “the regular units of the Russian army” — i.e., against the Russian-Government-controlled-and-trained fighting forces.

The same cannot be said about US troops on the ground in Ukraine...

Putin is indeed being very cautious this time around, in the present offensive and for good reason.

When the shelling of Mariupol began again last week Nato started talking about cutting off Russia from the SWIFT electronic banking system based in Belgium then the shelling suddenly stopped.

There's no question who is in command of whatever irregular armed forces there are in Ukraine that are fighting against the Ukraine regular military forces.

Once again you show everyone on here that you constantly talk through your back end.

Russia and China are already pulling out of SWIFT it is old news, this has been on the cards since last year.

They are going to produce their own alternative system..... Feel free to look it up on Google.

This payment system will allow other countries to do clandestine trading that the US will not be able to spy on or control.

You will now try to come back with some crap like "China will not dump SWIFT, it will lose lots of trade".... Lol... China trades worldwide, the world needs Chinese manufacturing more than you think.... Everything is done on a price, a good price, that is why hundreds of major US brands are manufactured there.

So please stop your totally brainless comments such as India is not an ally of Russia and are a massive ally of the US...... hahaha.....too funny.

Yes, it is well known Russia and China are talking of starting their own SWIFT and the two of 'em can SWIFT masturbate one another while the major and productive economies continue with the existing system which the emerging markets will need to retain because they need USD, not to mention Western technology and other major factors in economic and financial development that only the West can provide to them.

Next you guys will start talking again about China and Russia hoarding gold to destroy the USD and the USA and all the rest of the howling at the moon you guys are addicted to doing. Yuan swap agreements that amount to 2.7% of global financial transactions and the rubble ruble doesn't even show on the charts.

You guys over there are out of it...out of it completely and entirely.

You people over there think the US and EU don't know your constant driveling about hoarding gold and destroying the USD and economy and the EU and the West...you think the governments and financial systems of the West don't know your mindset of drivel?

Even if Russia and China were doing what you say they are doing with gold etc etc, do you think the West led by the United States are standing around waiting for it to happen?

Look at Russia at the present time, singularly because of Ukraine and how meanwhile China is laying back and making goo goo eyes to the United States to make it clear to Washington and to Brussels that China is not a part of the Russian madness. The Brics countries are lying low because they and their economies have swung low into recession, inflation then deflation, rapidly declining GDP, swelling unemployment. Venezuela is spiraling down to a crash and burn.

The CCP central bank just yesterday lowered the RRR by 50 basis points to 19.5 in what global financial markets are calling a panic move to try to head off a crash. The Russian central bank is in a fit of panic. Where are you people coming from?

You people are lecturing and scolding while you are standing in quicksand.

[konying]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

For the same reason why so many think its ok for an illegal over throw

While Crimea held a referendum, is not it what West stands for? Democracy, freedom, etc etc etc?

Yes, lets just gather together somewhere in Thailand where we outnumber the locals, have a vote and nick it off them.

No more 90 day reporting.

It was locals who held referendum not the expats on retirement visa, but you know that no doubt

[asiamaster]

July 8th 2014 Pro-Russian separatists in Lugansk have in their possession a 9K35 Strela-10 launch vehicle, likely captured from Ukrainian stores. In the below videos we can see the vehicle moving through Lugansk along with several BMP infantry fighting vehicles (IFV).

Very old article with a passing speculative statement regarding from where the Strela-10s in rebel posession originated.

The Strela-10s seen and pictured rolling through the streets of Donetsk on Feb 3 had Russian military markings.

Don't suppose you can run down to the local Ukraine Strela-10 store and purchase Strela-10s with Russian markings or I suppose Ukraine military put Russian markings on the Strela-10s that the rebels were going to steal and let them steal those Strela-10s just to set Russia up.

Ah yes the Russian markings. I suppose the same "Russian" markings that this Bellingcat character saw on that BUK unit racing from one place to the other. And yes I now have to agree that those "drunk morons" are indeed so stupid that they don't make an effort to remove those markings.

They could have covered the numbers with a white circle, just like the one on a truck in a Reuters picture. Oh hold on -was not exactly the same truck seen being used by an Ukrainian battalion?

All very confusing indeed. For each and every blogger that posts pictures of "Russian" weaponry there is one who will claim to have found NATO ammunition.

Edited February 5, 2015 by asiamaster

[Chicog]

Russia invaded a sovereign nation and annexed part of it.

I don't see why so many think that's OK.

For the same reason why so many think its ok for an illegal over throw

While Crimea held a referendum, is not it what West stands for? Democracy, freedom, etc etc etc?

Yes, lets just gather together somewhere in Thailand where we outnumber the locals, have a vote and nick it off them.

No more 90 day reporting.

It was locals who held referendum not the expats on retirement visa, but you know that no doubt

So if it happened in Bradford you'd be OK with it?

[konying]

So if it happened in Bradford you'd be OK with it?

Would be none of my business not that I know where or what Bradford is

Edited February 5, 2015 by konying

[F430murci]

July 8th 2014 Pro-Russian separatists in Lugansk have in their possession a 9K35 Strela-10 launch vehicle, likely captured from Ukrainian stores. In the below videos we can see the vehicle moving through Lugansk along with several BMP infantry fighting vehicles (IFV).

Very old article with a passing speculative statement regarding from where the Strela-10s in rebel posession originated.

The Strela-10s seen and pictured rolling through the streets of Donetsk on Feb 3 had Russian military markings.

Don't suppose you can run down to the local Ukraine Strela-10 store and purchase Strela-10s with Russian markings or I suppose Ukraine military put Russian markings on the Strela-10s that the rebels were going to steal and let them steal those Strela-10s just to set Russia up.

Ah yes the Russian markings. I suppose the same "Russian" markings that this Bellingcat character saw on that BUK unit racing from one place to the other. And yes I now have to agree that those "drunk morons" are indeed so stupid that they don't make an effort to remove those markings.

They could have covered the numbers with a white circle, just like the one on a truck in a Reuters picture. Oh hold on -was not exactly the same truck seen being used by an Ukrainian battalion?

All very confusing indeed. For each and every blogger that posts pictures of "Russian" weaponry there is one who will claim to have found NATO ammunition.

Lol, you asked for pictures. You don't want pictures. You don't want proof. It doesn't fit with your agenda. You just want to spew nonsense so if which I doubt even you believe.

[F430murci]

As I said, here is why Putin wants to stoke the fire and keep things unstable in Ukraine.

---------

The IMF organised a bail-out in Aprila stand-by arrangement, in IMF-speakto which so far it has disbursed about $5 billion. Ukraine is supposed to be getting a new onean extended-fund facilityin order to be able to access more money at longer maturities.

A few things have probably delayed the announcement. The IMF needs to make decent models of the economy before it can disburse funds. It has hardly covered itself in glory with its predictions on the Ukrainian economy, but decent modelling is impossible when the situation is so unstable. For instance, if the Donbas fell into Russian hands, Ukraines debt-to-GDP ratio would implicitly rise by about 20% (that is because Ukraines stock of public debt would be the same, but the countrys GDP would be about 15% smaller). What debt-to-GDP level should the IMF assume?

The IMF was hoping that the security situation would improve. That is looking increasingly unlikely; the last week has seen a surge in violence. Indeed on January 30, when markets were expecting details of the new bail-out, 12 civilians were killed in shelling in Donetsk.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/02/ukraines-new-bail-out

[Chicog]

So if it happened in Bradford you'd be OK with it?

Would be none of my business not that I know where or what Bradford is

Pick a majority Hispanic area of the US then. Say they vote to be part of Mexico. You're OK with that?

[h90]

Ukraine exported major conventional arms worth $1.344 billion in 2012 becoming the fourth largest arms exporter in the world, according to the data published by Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-worlds-4th-largest-arms-exporter-in-2012-according-to-sipri-321878.html?flavour=full

Surely 4th largest arms dealer in the world would be able to manage with its own arms without US help, unless there was an ulterior motive for the largest arms dealer, the US

well the east was the industrial hub, maybe most weapon production facility are in the hands of the freedom fighters?

[konying]

So if it happened in Bradford you'd be OK with it?

Would be none of my business not that I know where or what Bradford is

Pick a majority Hispanic area of the US then. Say they vote to be part of Mexico. You're OK with that?

If they were natives of the area and historically associated with Mexico , why not ?

By the way , how many non Russians ran to Ukraine? Any protests after the annexation?

[h90]

So if it happened in Bradford you'd be OK with it?

Would be none of my business not that I know where or what Bradford is

Pick a majority Hispanic area of the US then. Say they vote to be part of Mexico. You're OK with that?

If they were natives of the area and historically associated with Mexico , why not ?

By the way , how many non Russians ran to Ukraine? Any protests after the annexation?

yes you don't need to like it, but if a majority wants to split away it must be accepted. On the Krim also the majority of non Russian ethnic voted for Russia. Not a surprise as salaries, social security, hospitals, jobs, education...just about everything is better in Russia.

[F430murci]

So if it happened in Bradford you'd be OK with it?

Would be none of my business not that I know where or what Bradford is

Pick a majority Hispanic area of the US then. Say they vote to be part of Mexico. You're OK with that?

If they were natives of the area and historically associated with Mexico , why not ?

By the way , how many non Russians ran to Ukraine? Any protests after the annexation?

Protest? There is a full on war as Ukrainians are pissed. The poor civilians and Ukrainians are shell shocked. Civilians standing in the street yelling at people with tanks and machine guns might not be such a healthy idea for the civilians.

I was just got back from San Diego Tuesday night. What a gorgeous city and area. I ventured into Old Town for Mexico food and I can say without a doubt that US citizens would be pissed if Old Town tried to succeed from the US and rejoin Mexico, just as Ukrainian citizens are pissed off now. This would never happen because Mexico is not strong enough to send support and heavy weapons and tanks into US and US is strong enough to thwart what ever Mexico could muster.

I am curious, do you guys actually try and think anything through or do you just throw a bunch of silly bs against the wall hoping something will eventually stuck.

[konying]

Protest? There is a full on war as Ukrainians are pissed. The poor civilians and Ukrainians are shell shocked. Civilians standing in the street yelling at people with tanks and machine guns might not be such a healthy idea for the civilians.

I was just got back from San Diego Tuesday night. What a gorgeous city and area. I ventured into Old Town for Mexico food and I can say without a doubt that US citizens would be pissed if Old Town tried to succeed from the US and rejoin Mexico, just as Ukrainian citizens are pissed off now. This would never happen because Mexico is not strong enough to send support and heavy weapons and tanks into US and US is strong enough to thwart what ever Mexico could muster.

I am curious, do you guys actually try and think anything through or do you just throw a bunch of silly bs against the wall hoping something will eventually stuck.

1. We were talking about Crimea

2. It is Ukrainian army who is shelling civilians, schools and hospitals

3. It is Ukrainian government who suspended all payments, including pensions to its citizens

4. Ukrainians are pissed? Gee really? is that according to your wife friends or Kiev? How do they feel about 5 thousand civilians killed by their army and over 1 million refuges who lost everything because of their army

5. Since Ukrainians are so pissed according to you, is that why Ukrainian army having hard time to recruit or retain soldiers?

6. Is there any reason why Ukrainian army not allowed to retreat and when battalions try, they shoot their own men?

7.Is there any justification to Kiev wanting to set up "camps"?

8.Name any plan proposed by Kiev to stop the blood shed and solution?

9. Name any plan Kiev proposed to make peace with Russia and not accuse Russia of every mosquito which lands on Poroshenko's ass?

Again stop with US propaganda nonsense, to this date US has failed to produce any concrete evidence besides "we know" that Russia sent any troops in.

You would think with all the satellites and spying US does, they would have produced something little more than "we know" but can not show

Though plenty of evidence of US meddling, only EU are the ones who supposedly should be bailing out Ukraine, which is now somewhat hesitant to do.

And you are right, Mexico would not and this is exactly what US hoped for, but either failed or did not count on Russia to stand its ground. US keeps on failing to understand, not every country could be bullied into submission.

[F430murci]

Protest? There is a full on war as Ukrainians are pissed. The poor civilians and Ukrainians are shell shocked. Civilians standing in the street yelling at people with tanks and machine guns might not be such a healthy idea for the civilians.

I was just got back from San Diego Tuesday night. What a gorgeous city and area. I ventured into Old Town for Mexico food and I can say without a doubt that US citizens would be pissed if Old Town tried to succeed from the US and rejoin Mexico, just as Ukrainian citizens are pissed off now. This would never happen because Mexico is not strong enough to send support and heavy weapons and tanks into US and US is strong enough to thwart what ever Mexico could muster.

I am curious, do you guys actually try and think anything through or do you just throw a bunch of silly bs against the wall hoping something will eventually stuck.

1. We were talking about Crimea

2. It is Ukrainian army who is shelling civilians, schools and hospitals

3. It is Ukrainian government who suspended all payments, including pensions to its citizens

4. Ukrainians are pissed? Gee really? is that according to your wife friends or Kiev? How do they feel about 5 thousand civilians killed by their army and over 1 million refuges who lost everything because of their army

5. Since Ukrainians are so pissed according to you, is that why Ukrainian army having hard time to recruit or retain soldiers?

6. Is there any reason why Ukrainian army not allowed to retreat and when battalions try, they shoot their own men?

7.Is there any justification to Kiev wanting to set up "camps"?

8.Name any plan proposed by Kiev to stop the blood shed and solution?

9. Name any plan Kiev proposed to make peace with Russia and not accuse Russia of every mosquito which lands on Poroshenko's ass?

Again stop with US propaganda nonsense, to this date US has failed to produce any concrete evidence besides "we know" that Russia sent any troops in.

You would think with all the satellites and spying US does, they would have produced something little more than "we know" but can not show

Though plenty of evidence of US meddling, only EU are the ones who supposedly should be bailing out Ukraine, which is now somewhat hesitant to do.

And you are right, Mexico would not and this is exactly what US hoped for, but either failed or did not count on Russia to stand its ground. US keeps on failing to understand, not every country could be bullied into submission.

Your facts are not facts. The rebels are shelling innocents. The trolley incident is questionable, but their were no Ukrainian positions within 9 kms.

US propaganda! Lol! I just responded to your numbskull statement about no protests and you throw out about 10 lines of common Russian propaganda.

Sat images, photos and personal accounts have been produced since last summer, but you guys just question the validity so why continue an exercise in futility.

And yes, we have a large network of friends and family in both countries that are very in tune. My wife works daily with the large banks and institutional investors in that region including in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Many are her former classmates that graduated with a Speciality Degree in Stock Market for select students graduating with honors from their undergrad degrees.

We just spent 5 days with one such couple in San Diego that are in from Moscow. These people are intelligent, deal with the oligarchs and are working hard to keep Russian banks above water. they certainly know what the pulse is in Moscow and back home in Novosibirsk.

That said, I think Obama is handling this situation incorrectly. I have been very vocal about his sanctions and manipulation of oil prices. I am sympathetic towards Russians and what they are enduring right now.

[konying]

Protest? There is a full on war as Ukrainians are pissed. The poor civilians and Ukrainians are shell shocked. Civilians standing in the street yelling at people with tanks and machine guns might not be such a healthy idea for the civilians.

I was just got back from San Diego Tuesday night. What a gorgeous city and area. I ventured into Old Town for Mexico food and I can say without a doubt that US citizens would be pissed if Old Town tried to succeed from the US and rejoin Mexico, just as Ukrainian citizens are pissed off now. This would never happen because Mexico is not strong enough to send support and heavy weapons and tanks into US and US is strong enough to thwart what ever Mexico could muster.

I am curious, do you guys actually try and think anything through or do you just throw a bunch of silly bs against the wall hoping something will eventually stuck.

1. We were talking about Crimea

2. It is Ukrainian army who is shelling civilians, schools and hospitals

3. It is Ukrainian government who suspended all payments, including pensions to its citizens

4. Ukrainians are pissed? Gee really? is that according to your wife friends or Kiev? How do they feel about 5 thousand civilians killed by their army and over 1 million refuges who lost everything because of their army

5. Since Ukrainians are so pissed according to you, is that why Ukrainian army having hard time to recruit or retain soldiers?

6. Is there any reason why Ukrainian army not allowed to retreat and when battalions try, they shoot their own men?

7.Is there any justification to Kiev wanting to set up "camps"?

8.Name any plan proposed by Kiev to stop the blood shed and solution?

9. Name any plan Kiev proposed to make peace with Russia and not accuse Russia of every mosquito which lands on Poroshenko's ass?

Again stop with US propaganda nonsense, to this date US has failed to produce any concrete evidence besides "we know" that Russia sent any troops in.

You would think with all the satellites and spying US does, they would have produced something little more than "we know" but can not show

Though plenty of evidence of US meddling, only EU are the ones who supposedly should be bailing out Ukraine, which is now somewhat hesitant to do.

And you are right, Mexico would not and this is exactly what US hoped for, but either failed or did not count on Russia to stand its ground. US keeps on failing to understand, not every country could be bullied into submission.

Your facts are not facts. The rebels are shelling innocents. The trolley incident is questionable, but their were no Ukrainian positions within 9 kms.

US propaganda! Lol! I just responded to your numbskull statement about no protests and you throw out about 10 lines of common Russian propaganda.

Sat images, photos and personal accounts have been produced since last summer, but you guys just question the validity so why continue an exercise in futility.

And yes, we have a large network of friends and family in both countries that are very in tune. My wife works daily with the large banks and institutional investors in that region including in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Many are her former classmates that graduated with a Speciality Degree in Stock Market for select students graduating with honors from their undergrad degrees.

We just spent 5 days with one such couple in San Diego that are in from Moscow. These people are intelligent, deal with the oligarchs and are working hard to keep Russian banks above water. they certainly know what the pulse is in Moscow and back home in Novosibirsk.

That said, I think Obama is handling this situation incorrectly. I have been very vocal about his sanctions and manipulation of oil prices. I am sympathetic towards Russians and what they are enduring right now.

Thank God you able to use logic and rational thinking

Yes, the rebels are shelling civilians, this is why civilians running TO rebels while Kiev cuts off all payments

Yes yes your wife is well educated with all her friends holding KEY positions within US banking and investment sector, not sure why you feel the need to bring it up each and every time

Now that you finished sharing your personal life once again, feel free to address the actual facts.

So how many civilians took refuge in Ukraine? or are given refuge by Ukraine or aided by Ukraine?

[F430murci]

Protest? There is a full on war as Ukrainians are pissed. The poor civilians and Ukrainians are shell shocked. Civilians standing in the street yelling at people with tanks and machine guns might not be such a healthy idea for the civilians.

I was just got back from San Diego Tuesday night. What a gorgeous city and area. I ventured into Old Town for Mexico food and I can say without a doubt that US citizens would be pissed if Old Town tried to succeed from the US and rejoin Mexico, just as Ukrainian citizens are pissed off now. This would never happen because Mexico is not strong enough to send support and heavy weapons and tanks into US and US is strong enough to thwart what ever Mexico could muster.

I am curious, do you guys actually try and think anything through or do you just throw a bunch of silly bs against the wall hoping something will eventually stuck.

1. We were talking about Crimea

2. It is Ukrainian army who is shelling civilians, schools and hospitals

3. It is Ukrainian government who suspended all payments, including pensions to its citizens

4. Ukrainians are pissed? Gee really? is that according to your wife friends or Kiev? How do they feel about 5 thousand civilians killed by their army and over 1 million refuges who lost everything because of their army

5. Since Ukrainians are so pissed according to you, is that why Ukrainian army having hard time to recruit or retain soldiers?

6. Is there any reason why Ukrainian army not allowed to retreat and when battalions try, they shoot their own men?

7.Is there any justification to Kiev wanting to set up "camps"?

8.Name any plan proposed by Kiev to stop the blood shed and solution?

9. Name any plan Kiev proposed to make peace with Russia and not accuse Russia of every mosquito which lands on Poroshenko's ass?

Again stop with US propaganda nonsense, to this date US has failed to produce any concrete evidence besides "we know" that Russia sent any troops in.

You would think with all the satellites and spying US does, they would have produced something little more than "we know" but can not show

Though plenty of evidence of US meddling, only EU are the ones who supposedly should be bailing out Ukraine, which is now somewhat hesitant to do.

And you are right, Mexico would not and this is exactly what US hoped for, but either failed or did not count on Russia to stand its ground. US keeps on failing to understand, not every country could be bullied into submission.

Your facts are not facts. The rebels are shelling innocents. The trolley incident is questionable, but their were no Ukrainian positions within 9 kms.

US propaganda! Lol! I just responded to your numbskull statement about no protests and you throw out about 10 lines of common Russian propaganda.

Sat images, photos and personal accounts have been produced since last summer, but you guys just question the validity so why continue an exercise in futility.

And yes, we have a large network of friends and family in both countries that are very in tune. My wife works daily with the large banks and institutional investors in that region including in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Many are her former classmates that graduated with a Speciality Degree in Stock Market for select students graduating with honors from their undergrad degrees.

We just spent 5 days with one such couple in San Diego that are in from Moscow. These people are intelligent, deal with the oligarchs and are working hard to keep Russian banks above water. they certainly know what the pulse is in Moscow and back home in Novosibirsk.

That said, I think Obama is handling this situation incorrectly. I have been very vocal about his sanctions and manipulation of oil prices. I am sympathetic towards Russians and what they are enduring right now.

Thank God you able to use logic and rational thinking

Yes, the rebels are shelling civilians, this is why civilians running TO rebels while Kiev cuts off all payments

Yes yes your wife is well educated with all her friends holding KEY positions within US banking and investment sector, not sure why you feel the need to bring it up each and every time

Now that you finished sharing your personal life once again, feel free to address the actual facts.

So how many civilians took refuge in Ukraine? or are given refuge by Ukraine or aided by Ukraine?

Let's see, stay in Ukraine where a war is going on or cross into Russia where no war is going on. Not a difficult choice and pretty much their only option to get out of harms way.

[konying]

Let's see, stay in Ukraine where a war is going on or cross into Russia where no war is going on. Not a difficult choice and pretty much their only option to get out of harms way.

Last time i checked war was ONLY going on in the East

But good try

[F430murci]

Let's see, stay in Ukraine where a war is going on or cross into Russia where no war is going on. Not a difficult choice and pretty much their only option to get out of harms way.

Last time i checked war was ONLY going on in the East

But good try

Same, same. Ukraine is a mess economically at war with hostilities moving further and further west.

Ukrainian refugees are pretty much limited to going to Russia as checkpoints are not permitting thise from Luhansk and Donetsk to enter the territory of Ukraine.

[Pakboong]

Today we get the word that the Ukrainian government will start shooting deserters. Nothing unusual about that other than usually the nation defending its homes will stand and fight. Maybe they do not feel this is an invasion and want no part of it.

7,500 Ukrainian deserters are up on charges. That is quite a few.

Now all women 20 to 50 are eligible for the draft.

[asiamaster]

Same, same. Ukraine is a mess economically at war with hostilities moving further and further west.

Ukrainian refugees are pretty much limited to going to Russia as checkpoints are not permitting thise from Luhansk and Donetsk to enter the territory of Ukraine.

Huh? Are you now admitting that Ukrainians are not allowed to enter Ukraine?? Ah yes logic I suppose.

[asiamaster]

Your facts are not facts. The rebels are shelling innocents.

Now that's strange! A Dutch friend of mine has been living in Ukraine (Perevalsk,Luhansk) for quite a number of years is reporting different stories on a daily basis.

And yes please keep the pictures of Russian tanks openly cruisin' with their Russian markings through Donetsk coming. I forwarded the pictures to him and they made his day .

You may want to look him up on FB -his name is Ronald van Amerongen.

Have a nice day .

[F430murci]

*Deleted post edited out*

Lol, you fell for that one . . .

I left the source out to see your response, but that is a Russian version being reported by a Pro-Kremlin news source.

----------


Noteworthy, Ukrainian refugees can escape only to Russia, as Ukrainian checkpoints do not allow residents of Luhansk and Donetsk enter the territory of Ukraine.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/04-02-2015/129699-ukraine_donbass_refugees-0/

[F430murci]

Same, same. Ukraine is a mess economically at war with hostilities moving further and further west.

Ukrainian refugees are pretty much limited to going to Russia as checkpoints are not permitting thise from Luhansk and Donetsk to enter the territory of Ukraine.

Huh? Are you now admitting that Ukrainians are not allowed to enter Ukraine?? Ah yes logic I suppose.

Nah, just repeating Pro-Kremlin propaganda to see your guys' response.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/04-02-2015/129699-ukraine_donbass_refugees-0/

[F430murci]

This article is common sense. US struggles with decision to send anti tank and anti mortar weapons to Ukraine because of Russia's presence in the UIkraine and concerns that this will escalate problems with Putin. If this was truly a conflict involving only Ukrainian rebels and not Putin, there would be no such concerns.

Interesting how Merkel, Hollande et al. Are going to Russia to negotiate with Putin to end a conflict in which he has no involvement . . .

This debate is an exercise in futility and we will all just have to wait for the outcome. Putin could end this overnight, but won't. Lose too much face with his people struggling under dire economic woes and for his citizens to see Ukraine potentially prosper with IMF help while they suffer would be bad for Purin so he will keep Ukraine a basket case.

-----------

What will Putin do if U.S. arms Ukraine?

. . .

Such a step could take the worst East-West confrontation since the Cold War into a new and unpredictable stage.

In effect, Washington would be sending weapons to be used against Russian forces at a time when the Kremlin is increasingly hostile to the West and has shown it is ready to escalate a showdown.

There is no guarantee that funneling sophisticated U.S. armaments into the conflict could be decisive, and the gambit could antagonize Vladimir Putin, Russia's increasingly isolated and hard-to-read leader. In a sign of possible administration push back against Carter's remarks, the top NATO general Philip Breedlove told the Associated Press in an interview on Thursday that arming Ukraine could spark a "more strident" reaction from Russia.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest meanwhile offered what appeared to be a rebuke of Carter on Wednesday, saying "a decision like this will be made by the Commander-in-Chief," in a reminder of where power over national security lies in this administration.

The United States also wants to avoid a complete breakdown in ties and a return to the great power competition of the Soviet era, partly because it needs Russian help on key strategic issues, including nuclear talks with Iran, the chaos in the Middle East and in Afghanistan.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/05/politics/putin-russia-us-ukraine-arming-rebels/

Edited February 6, 2015 by F430murci

[Scott]

A baiting post has been removed. Stop with the personal commentary, please.

[rijit]

This article is common sense. US struggles with decision to send anti tank and anti mortar weapons to Ukraine because of Russia's presence in the UIkraine and concerns that this will escalate problems with Putin. If this was truly a conflict involving only Ukrainian rebels and not Putin, there would be no such concerns.

Interesting how Merkel, Hollande et al. Are going to Russia to negotiate with Putin to end a conflict in which he has no involvement . . .

This debate is an exercise in futility and we will all just have to wait for the outcome. Putin could end this overnight, but won't. Lose too much face with his people struggling under dire economic woes and for his citizens to see Ukraine potentially prosper with IMF help while they suffer would be bad for Purin so he will keep Ukraine a basket case.

-----------

What will Putin do if U.S. arms Ukraine?

. . .

Such a step could take the worst East-West confrontation since the Cold War into a new and unpredictable stage.

In effect, Washington would be sending weapons to be used against Russian forces at a time when the Kremlin is increasingly hostile to the West and has shown it is ready to escalate a showdown.

There is no guarantee that funneling sophisticated U.S. armaments into the conflict could be decisive, and the gambit could antagonize Vladimir Putin, Russia's increasingly isolated and hard-to-read leader. In a sign of possible administration push back against Carter's remarks, the top NATO general Philip Breedlove told the Associated Press in an interview on Thursday that arming Ukraine could spark a "more strident" reaction from Russia.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest meanwhile offered what appeared to be a rebuke of Carter on Wednesday, saying "a decision like this will be made by the Commander-in-Chief," in a reminder of where power over national security lies in this administration.

The United States also wants to avoid a complete breakdown in ties and a return to the great power competition of the Soviet era, partly because it needs Russian help on key strategic issues, including nuclear talks with Iran, the chaos in the Middle East and in Afghanistan.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/05/politics/putin-russia-us-ukraine-arming-rebels/

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And that putins agreed to discuss a conflict that Russia has no involvement in is a bit of a give away.