Prenuptual agreements, legal? procedure?

[jayrockwell]

Does anybody have any experience?

Secure for both UK & Thailand Laws.

Can they also cover future inheritance?

Thanks

James

[Thomas_Merton]

I do not have experience of prenuptial agreements; however I do have experience of a happily married life with a Thai woman. Therefore I feel obliged to offer this advice to you or any other falang contemplating marriage to a Thai.

This is an absolute truth (there are numerous accounts on the web, and other places, that will confirm this point): despite your undoubted feelings of romantic love for your future wife, and despite her possible protestations that these feelings are reciprocated, an honest Thai woman has only one aim in getting married. That is to secure a future for herself AND her family (her mother and father etc.). If you are not prepared to economically help and support her family, your marriage will probably never take place, or at the most, last only a short time.

I challenge anybody to come with examples that refute the ab

[D80]

Sorry, I can't answer the prenup thing but since I've been invited to challenge the view that the person above me have made, I will express my own opinion.

'an honest Thai woman has only one aim in getting married. That is to secure a future for herself AND her family (her mother and father etc.).'

Umm... that's just your opinion.  While that may be true for some (perhaps people you associate with give you that impression), that's not true for people around me.

I would count myself as 'an honest Thai woman' and I don't aim to get married just to secure a future for myself and my family.  

I work, I earn my own money.  If I want to show gratitude to my own family (mum, dad etc), I don't need to give them money.  Or if I want to give them material comfort, I treat them from the money I 'earned myself' and not from my husband's.

Sure, as a woman, I do look for a husband who will be responsible enough to take care of his family (that is him, me and our children).  Likewise, that is also my duty, to take care of our family.  I would want a secure life for him, me and our future children.  I would not want to marry some lazy drunkard who will bring nothing but trouble.  That is not to say I would see marriage as a security just for me & my mum & dad etc.

All my Thai friends are of the same sort of opinion and background on this matter.  It may be different for other people from other background or social classes or whatever.

My mum & dad never expect me to give them anything.  When I do so, I do it for the same reason that you or any other decent person might have when you want to tell someone you care about them or you love them.  And to get married to be able to do that just defeat the purpose for me since that way it won't be from my own ability anymore (I don't count finding a husband who will pay for my family as an ability).

That's my opinion, from an honest Thai woman.

[Thomas_Merton]

All my Thai friends are of the same sort of opinion and background on this matter.  It may be different for other people from other background or social classes or whatever.

You are obviously a very well educated and sophisticated Thai woman – if only to judge by your mastery of the English language. Of course with all generalities, there are exceptions. But I think that your exception reveals one of the many difficulties presenting itself to a country wrestling with its proud traditions and the influences of many aspects of western culture.

It is difficult to admit that you and your friends are yet just a very small percentage of Thai women (and are, unfortunately an immeasurably small part of the Thai women who come into contact with the average falang visitor to your beautiful country). Bangkok, and all the major tourist resorts, are full of (without exaggeration) literally thousands of not-so-wealthy Thai women, working in all sorts jobs (some more exotic than others), who have the dream I mentioned in my original mail. These women, often coming from very poor families in the countryside, are supporting themselves and their families - families whose only means of occupation is seasonal agricultural work for daily wages that would not even buy two coffees in a sophisticated Bangkok coffee shop.

The world as experienced by the rich and the poor, wherever you live, is always very different, with vastly different goals, aims and aspirations. Just the simple fact of having no money can concentrate the mind somewhat! It is a not a secret that the vast differences between the lifestyles of the wealthy and the poor, have resulted in many of the more controversial aspects of the Thai society.

The challenge to the elite in Thailand is this:- how best to channel resources and job opportunities out to the countryside so these women can realize their dreams without having to leave their homes and families and marry a falang.

[Thomas_Merton]

'an honest Thai woman has only one aim in getting married. That is to secure a future for herself AND her family (her mother and father etc.).'

Forgive me, I did not address, in my previous answer to you, what was one of your main points.

You took exception, quite rightly, to my use of the phrase “an honest Thai woman”.

However, I did not mean, as you obviously interpreted it, “a respectable Thai woman”. But rather:  “a Thai woman who is truthful to herself and her (future) husband”.

It would be interesting to hear if this interpretation has any influence on you comments.

[sevinnow]

Very interesting subject:   my advice is simple take off the rose tinted glasses put on your Ray-Ban one's and get a prenup signed on everything you invest in...if you get an objection then maybe change the lady  not the glasses...BUT..if a few years down the line and everything starts to look rosy through those Ray-Ban glasses then sure get married and let your worries melt into the Thai sunset.

[jayrockwell]

OK, so I've opened up the old can of worms, it's always good to see honest debating.

However, still looking for real information on Prenuptial Agreements, anyone?

James

[D80]

Hehe, maybe I am taking this a bit too seriously.  

Umm, the alternative interpretation of 'honest' doesn't really change my view.  But I do take the point that there are lots of poor people in Thailand and thus their ways of life may be more... shall we say... 'practical'.  Marriage for some, therefore, is a way to secure their future.  And I would also agree with the point that most foreigners would not have many opportunities to come into contact with the women who have different views on the matter.

About the prenupt agreement, I have never really heard of one being done in Thailand to be honest.  Some people I know who are involved in risky commercial business and do not want to mix their assets actually choose not to get married or get married and then divorced on paper.  

I don't really see the problem with it being done though, since it seems like just another contractual arrangement to me.  Alternatively, you could organise your assets so that they are exclusively in your name and not matrimonial.  I appreciate that it would be more complicated that way but if the prenupt thing can't be done then that might be another route to explore (i.e. if you and your wife want to build a place here, she can own the land and you can probably own the house (leaseing the land from your wife) and the rest of the stuff in it-since you can't own the land).  I think it is a good idea anyway to be realistic about these things and make sure you are not left with nothing to call your own!  

Good luck!  

[Thomas_Merton]

... take off the rose tinted glasses put on your Ray-Ban one's and get a prenup signed on everything you invest in...if you get an objection then maybe change the lady  not the glasses...

On the subject:

If you do not trust your future wife, or think shortly after the marriage, or even a long time in the future, you will not be able to trust her, why get married in the first place?

To misquote the Bible: a marriage built on mistrust, is a marriage built on sand.

[sevinnow]

Yes Thomas,    I agree with the sentiment behind your point maybe it is my experience from a marriage to a Uk lady and £75,000 poorer 3 years later,  because I believed what you have just stated.   Maybe Thai ladies are different (as I fall off my stool laughing) or maybe I was just unlucky.

Get a prenub signed and sleep at night.

Sev :cool:

[Thomas_Merton]

Get a prenub signed and sleep at night.

...just as the knights of old slept, believing in the chastity belt?

No, Sep, I don't buy it. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I can't appreciate this modern obsession with insurance. It takes all the hard work, risk and fun out of life.

For me, one contract is enough - the marriage contract - "in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, in this life and the next etc..".

And my advice stands – if in doubt, what’s the point of getting married?

[D80]

I would have agreed with Thomas if Thai law allow foreigners to own free hold in property (which is probably one of the biggest chunks of your overall assets).  Personally, I don't really mind one way or the other had my husband asked me to sign a prenup.

But I can see why someone might want to make sure this sort of things are sorted out and that they don't end up having no where to live with little possession in Thailand.  

Also it is a sort of balance of power in relationship, I guess.  I wouldn't feel comfortable in a relationship if one person have sole control over every single assets in marriage (and that's likely if you live in Thailand in a house which is probably in your wife's name).  In my family home, my dad owns the land and my mum owns the house too.  It seems to work out fine.  That's not to say they don't trust each other.  As it happens they are one of the happiest couples I've ever seen.  But I think it is because of the peace of mind you will feel if that some people want a prenup, God forbid, something is to go horribly wrong in the future.

[Thomas_Merton]

But I think it is because of the peace of mind you will feel if that some people want a prenup, God forbid, something is to go horribly wrong in the future.

I think my aversion to "prenups", is based primarily upon their presumption of divorce, but also upon their reduction of the spiritually wonderful, giving event of marriage, to considerations controlled by cold, calculated materialism.

However, for the sake of argument, I will accept the insecurities of many, and therefore will propose the following prenuptial agreement:

1. Divorce is forbidden - any divorce papers signed by either of the two parties are to be considered illegal.

2. All assets are to be equally shared, despite whose name is on the original contract.

Would such an agreement not create security until “death us do part”?

If these two paragraphs are unacceptable to the “engaged couple” then I say, don’t get married. Live together, travel the world together, do everything together, but don’t get married. At least not until you have grown up and are willing to accept the terrible (and indescribably rewarding) responsibilities of marriage.

[sevinnow]

Well which ever way you want to veiw it don't you think everyone has the right to have an opion.

Just think if everyone in the world was has happy and secure as Thomas is where would all the lawyers earn their huge wages and what would happen to all those people who work in the marriage courts not to mention all the sad stories you hear at the beer bars.

So many people would be affeted in a perfect world...me I stick to the prenub and keep up the emplyment figures in Thailand.

:cool:

[Thomas_Merton]

Well which ever way you want to veiw it don't you think everyone has the right to have an opion.

Hi Sev (I apologize for getting your name wrong before),

If what you say is right (and I don't doubt your sincerity), can you, or anyone else, give me any reasons why anybody would want to marry, as compared to just living together?

(We have all the time been making the assumption we are talking about heterosexuals. Some comments from homosexuals would be very welcome. Homosexual marriage is permitted in the country where I live - Denmark).

[hukster]

First thing i would sugguest is to read up on Thai family law.

If your worried about getting taken down the road then don't get married.

[LordHawHaw]

Back to basics.

1.  What the original poster needs is real legal advice.  He should seek out a good Thai lawyer.  I would begin by asking Thai friends who are in the business world for referrals.

2.  A lot of the advice in these postings strikes me as extremely speculative and without legal merit.

3.  Whatever anyone's motives may be for marriage, the fact is that over time, people do change.  Divorce or at least a loss of marital harmony is a fact of life.  Realize that, and plan for the worst.

4.  Finally, and this is a bit off topic, I seriously doubt that D80 is either a Thai or a female.

[Thomas_Merton]

This is just a test, as I cannot find this thread anymore on the board.

[george]

Seems that we have lost a couple of postings in this three, I will look into it asp. Please continue, and try to re-post in the meantime. Thanks!

/George

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