China vows to reject South China Sea ruling

[sgtsabai]

China may be a "superpower" but only in it's own backyard. That is why it bullies it neighbors and destroys sea ecology to build fake islands that it has no legitimate claim to. Anyone thinking China is/will be a good neighbor is a fool or a troll for the Chinese government. They can make all the false claims they want, China has no legitimate claim to the South China Sea or anyplace out side of it's borders. When China starts the shooting, it's fake islands will disappear, along with it's air force and navy. China doesn't want to be a world partner, it wants to rule the world as it always has. Oh, and much of the junk it exports is dangerous, hmmm accident or purpose? Japan and the US Marines have been practicing island retaking. I do believe some years back Japan learned just how good the Marines were at that. The US and all countries involved need to push back and push back hard. When reason fails, force prevails and China is acting like a schoolyard bully. Only one way to deal with a bully.

[LawrenceChee]

China may be a "superpower" but only in it's own backyard. That is why it bullies it neighbors and destroys sea ecology to build fake islands that it has no legitimate claim to. Anyone thinking China is/will be a good neighbor is a fool or a troll for the Chinese government. They can make all the false claims they want, China has no legitimate claim to the South China Sea or anyplace out side of it's borders. When China starts the shooting, it's fake islands will disappear, along with it's air force and navy. China doesn't want to be a world partner, it wants to rule the world as it always has. Oh, and much of the junk it exports is dangerous, hmmm accident or purpose? Japan and the US Marines have been practicing island retaking. I do believe some years back Japan learned just how good the Marines were at that. The US and all countries involved need to push back and push back hard. When reason fails, force prevails and China is acting like a schoolyard bully. Only one way to deal with a bully.

Great typical USA strategy ...send in all the MUSCLES and if that does not work send in an elephant stamping against an ant whatever throw in the missiles and fireworks

For that to happen , China need to engage you in a war ...stubbornly like an old Confucius sage ....it will say no ...what are you going to do with these civilian dredging boats ? Can't bomb ,can't ram , can't block them ....

You can practice all you like about island retaking ...can't start anything against civilians and again the ship chandlers await you in Hong Kong and Shanghai ports when you are done parading your patrols with their overpriced produce for your stock up ....

Damn it feels painful to pay $8 per kg of vegetables ....or $12 for a punnet of strawberries for your officers mess AND

Worst feeling on earth ....see the chuckle on the china man face as he says "thank you" in his Chinese accent taking your US Dollars stamped "paid in cash" and "see you next week"

[impulse]

GENEVA, Feb. 24, 1933

"Japan will oppose any attempt at international control of Manchuria. It does not mean that we defy you, because Manchuria belongs to us by right.

"Read your history. We recovered Manchuria from Russia. We made it what it is today."

http://www.johndclare.net/league_of_nations6_news.htm

Sounds eerily familiar...

China isn't actually killing anybody. Also, China did actually take part in defeating Japan during World War Two.

That first part would be news to Uighurs and Tibetans. The Japanese did their best at hiding their atrocities in Manchuria, too.

And for the second part, they actually diverted and stashed the majority of the aid that was sent to them- to finish their civil war once the Japanese inconvenience was out of the way (That's according to Vinegar Joe Stillwell who would have known more about it than I ever will).

[LawrenceChee]

China may be a "superpower" but only in it's own backyard. That is why it bullies it neighbors and destroys sea ecology to build fake islands that it has no legitimate claim to. Anyone thinking China is/will be a good neighbor is a fool or a troll for the Chinese government. They can make all the false claims they want, China has no legitimate claim to the South China Sea or anyplace out side of it's borders. When China starts the shooting, it's fake islands will disappear, along with it's air force and navy. China doesn't want to be a world partner, it wants to rule the world as it always has. Oh, and much of the junk it exports is dangerous, hmmm accident or purpose? Japan and the US Marines have been practicing island retaking. I do believe some years back Japan learned just how good the Marines were at that. The US and all countries involved need to push back and push back hard. When reason fails, force prevails and China is acting like a schoolyard bully. Only one way to deal with a bully.

I believe you should stop talking about the stuff Chinese exports as junk ....instead you should ask those Walmart clients to pay more and we can export quality products to you. Want a Barbie made out of silk hair and cost $100 each ...we can do that for you. If you pay $5.90 for that doll , it must be a dumb fool who thinks that is going to be as durable as Lego.

I'm a business man with global interests that is proudly Chinese by heritage and I will tell you I'm no fool or troll.

Apple is $1000 and up and it's quality made in China ...we can also make your $0.50 streamers you used once during Halloween ...remember it is what you pay that determines quality and specs

If you believe this is junk , stop buying ...I have been a Long supporter of closing these shit factories down in the south and you can bring them back to USA and see what is this years Christmas Budget for the office raffles ...won't make you smile I guarantee you

I believe this junk will move south soon and you will see made in Laos / Cambodia soon but shipped from Chinese ports ...which means the pollution will stream southwards which is not good and again the corporate greed of companies means Asian countries pay the price in pollution levels by producing this in sub quality factories ...

Sick of such consumerism ....

Edited June 7, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

Ah, so China only attacks and occupies weak neighbors, such as Tibet, Bhutan, and Mongolia, who can't fight back. I see. And they get to do it, because they think they are a "superpower."

Define Attack ? When you speak of Bhutan ...do you mean by the same token India which proclaims to be a key USA ally and the world largest democracy stick and carrot approach in their foreign affairs management with Bhutan and Nepal ?

India has repeatedly used oil and gas supplies as a means of holding on to Bhutan much like Russia's strategy in the baltics

Bhutan is strategic in a military sense to both China and both countries wants to make friends with Bhutan

I have not seen any military inclusions so what attacks are you talking about or you are flaming the issue ?

Politics is wide encompassing ...be good to see the multiple complexities

Tibet and Mongolia is strategic to China in blocking India and Russia ...no different from why USA hold on to Alaska for holding Russia to create a military and missiles buffer

By the way China is a superpower ...if anyone is still using terms like they think...they are obviously not current with the world situations

Bhutan Shmutan.

We are discussing the CCP Dictators in Beijing expanding the Central Kingdom into the sea south of it. The sea borders 131,000 km of Asean countries and 3000 km of China shores. The Dictators in Beijing have consciously and willfully chosen to make themselves the neighbor from hell. A big lout neighbor from hell.

The number one tactic of CCP's in any discussion is to divert, divert, divert. CCPs attack the other guy while admitting to nothing and denying everything.

This side of the argument does not need to defend Asean or the entire region from Japan and S Korea to India, inclusive of Australia/NZ. UNCLOS is on this side of the argument as is the United States, the European Union, the G-7 countries. (Thailand supports the ILOS in the matter even if it only whispers it and rarely, however, the PM stated it openly and firmly at the Singapore regional security conference last week...this proves everyone knows which way the wind is blowing.)

CCP in 2012 demolished the Code of Conduct in respect of the SCS that had been initiated by Asean and signed by the CCP in 2002 after years of discussions that had been initiated by Asean. Asean got the CoC to try to establish a balance in the Sea that would allow sharing of resources and -- of a vital importance -- cooperation and reciprocity in respect of claims.

CCP in 2012 also demolished the Asean proposed Declaration on the Conduct of the Parties in the South China Sea which had sought to update and refine the 2002 CoC.

CCP Dictators and their fanboyz do not discuss these vital matters central to the region and its nation states either individually or collectively. Yet the three documents are the core issue: the CCP-demolished CoC of 2002 trashed by Beijing in 2012; the 2012 proposed Declaration on the Conduct of the Parties in SCS that Beijing trashed in the same year it was proposed, i.e., 2012; and the UN Convention on the International Law of the Sea where the Philippines case versus CCP Dictators in Beijing is expected to be concluded and announced by the end of the month.

CCP in Beijing has lined up nations far and wide to oppose Asean and the region in support of Beijing against its neighbors -- maritime powers such as Kenya, Montenegro, Gambia among a couple of dozen others that are the same same. Beijing's list of supporters reads like the failed state index.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

Ah, so China only attacks and occupies weak neighbors, such as Tibet, Bhutan, and Mongolia, who can't fight back. I see. And they get to do it, because they think they are a "superpower."

Define Attack ? When you speak of Bhutan ...do you mean by the same token India which proclaims to be a key USA ally and the world largest democracy stick and carrot approach in their foreign affairs management with Bhutan and Nepal ?

India has repeatedly used oil and gas supplies as a means of holding on to Bhutan much like Russia's strategy in the baltics

Bhutan is strategic in a military sense to both China and both countries wants to make friends with Bhutan

I have not seen any military inclusions so what attacks are you talking about or you are flaming the issue ?

Politics is wide encompassing ...be good to see the multiple complexities

Tibet and Mongolia is strategic to China in blocking India and Russia ...no different from why USA hold on to Alaska for holding Russia to create a military and missiles buffer

By the way China is a superpower ...if anyone is still using terms like they think...they are obviously not current with the world situations

We are discussing the CCP Dictators in Beijing expanding the Central Kingdom into the sea south of it. The sea borders 131,000 km of Asean countries and 3000 km of China shores. The Dictators in Beijing have consciously and willfully chosen to make themselves the neighbor from hell. A big lout neighbor from hell.

The number one tactic of CCP's in any discussion is to divert, divert, divert. CCPs attack the other guy while admitting to nothing and denying everything.

This side of the argument does not need to defend Asean or the entire region from Japan and S Korea to India, inclusive of Australia/NZ. UNLOS is on this side of the argument as is the United States, the European Union, the G-7 countries. (Thailand supports the ILOS in the matter even if it only whispers it, however, the PM stated it openly and firmly at the Singapore regional security conference last week.)

CCP in 2012 demolished the Code of Conduct in respect of the SCS that had been initiated by Asean and signed by the CCP in 2002 after years of discussions initiated by Asean. Asean wanted the CoC to try to establish a balance in the Sea that would allow sharing of resources and -- of a vital importance -- cooperation and reciprocity in respect of claims.

CCP in 2012 demolished the Asean proposed Document on the Conduct of the Parties in the South China Sea which had sought to update and refine the 2002 CoC.

CCP Dictators and their fanboyz do not discuss these vital matters central to the region and its nation states whether individually or collectively. The three documents are the core issue: the CCP-demolished CoC of 2002 trashed by Beijing in 2012; the 2012 proposed Document on the Conduct of the Parties Beijing trashed in the same year it was proposed, i.e., 2012; and the UN Convention on the International Law of the Sea where the Philippines case versus CCP Dictators in Brijing is expected to be concluded and announced by the end of the month.

CCP in Beijing has lined up nations far and wide to opposes Asean and the region and to support Beijing against its neighbors -- maritime powers such as Kenya, Montenegro, Gambia among a couple of dozen others that are the same same. Beijing's list of supporters reads like the failed state index.

Call them what you like ...it's the usual cut and paste CCP stuff you print

When USA have ratify the UNCLOS like China , the country will then have legitimacy to comment , otherwise it's hypocrisy if you believe the USA is above any laws sanctioned by the UN and act when it's convenient for the country or is that just superpower arrogance ?

If so , then yes China is guilty of following the example of USA and learning how to be a world power ...setting rules and engagement when it fits their strategic needs.

If not , while don't you also respect the Okinawan residents & their referendum and leave the Japanese bases ?

Is that semi forced occupation : bullying as well because The Central government says yes you can be there but you know the local resident hate the arrangements for many years and been protesting for you to leave ? Why won't you respect the Japanese citizens of the free world and leave ? What's that called ?

Don't just comment on China being a bully ...answer those real questions because this is not deflection

If the USA believe they can act on their own accord , I can't see the argument while China as the world 2nd biggest economy and superpower has to follow what you tell them to do ....I don't see the Russians doing what you want them to do ...irks the USA and nothing you can do about it just like China because these are superpowers ...and they don't argue / bargain at a fair platform

Why does the USA not ratify the UNCLOS / Kyoto Treaty / UN Child Labor Sanctions ?

If it agrees to the points of law on these issues why not sign and ratify it ? What's stopping them ?

Just inconvenient ? Arrogance ? No one can tell Uncle Sam when to sign something ... ?

[keemapoot]

China is feeling very threatened by an encirclement strategy of containment led by the US. I'm half-watching an expert panel discussion now on AJ where the danger is that China will overreact to the Hague ruling, and impose the ADIZ and, combined with the US provocation, this could provoke a conflict.

The experts on the panel feel this is a very high danger risk of conflict at this point. China sees this as a strategic national interest, and sees the US as provocateur and propelling the possible conflict forward.

The main issue to solve this, as Lawrence correctly states, is the economic development imperative, particularly as the economies of the world, including China are in jeopardy. All economies are struggling and the US is seen pushing this primary issue of difference between the US and China, turning other nations against China, instead of negotiating other issues that might help ease pressure here.

One area of common ground, again cited by Lawrence, is the N. Korea issue. Perhaps the US and China could cooperate on this and diffuse the South China Sea issue.

The experts cited Donald Trump as a huge danger of incoherent policy with China, and Clinton seen as continuing the Obama policy. They are not optimistic.

[Ireland32]

Ah, so China only attacks and occupies weak neighbors, such as Tibet, Bhutan, and Mongolia, who can't fight back. I see. And they get to do it, because they think they are a "superpower."

Define Attack ? When you speak of Bhutan ...do you mean by the same token India which proclaims to be a key USA ally and the world largest democracy stick and carrot approach in their foreign affairs management with Bhutan and Nepal ?

India has repeatedly used oil and gas supplies as a means of holding on to Bhutan much like Russia's strategy in the baltics

Bhutan is strategic in a military sense to both China and both countries wants to make friends with Bhutan

I have not seen any military inclusions so what attacks are you talking about or you are flaming the issue ?

Politics is wide encompassing ...be good to see the multiple complexities

Tibet and Mongolia is strategic to China in blocking India and Russia ...no different from why USA hold on to Alaska for holding Russia to create a military and missiles buffer

By the way China is a superpower ...if anyone is still using terms like they think...they are obviously not current with the world situations

We are discussing the CCP Dictators in Beijing expanding the Central Kingdom into the sea south of it. The sea borders 131,000 km of Asean countries and 3000 km of China shores. The Dictators in Beijing have consciously and willfully chosen to make themselves the neighbor from hell. A big lout neighbor from hell.

The number one tactic of CCP's in any discussion is to divert, divert, divert. CCPs attack the other guy while admitting to nothing and denying everything.

This side of the argument does not need to defend Asean or the entire region from Japan and S Korea to India, inclusive of Australia/NZ. UNLOS is on this side of the argument as is the United States, the European Union, the G-7 countries. (Thailand supports the ILOS in the matter even if it only whispers it, however, the PM stated it openly and firmly at the Singapore regional security conference last week.)

CCP in 2012 demolished the Code of Conduct in respect of the SCS that had been initiated by Asean and signed by the CCP in 2002 after years of discussions initiated by Asean. Asean wanted the CoC to try to establish a balance in the Sea that would allow sharing of resources and -- of a vital importance -- cooperation and reciprocity in respect of claims.

CCP in 2012 demolished the Asean proposed Document on the Conduct of the Parties in the South China Sea which had sought to update and refine the 2002 CoC.

CCP Dictators and their fanboyz do not discuss these vital matters central to the region and its nation states whether individually or collectively. The three documents are the core issue: the CCP-demolished CoC of 2002 trashed by Beijing in 2012; the 2012 proposed Document on the Conduct of the Parties Beijing trashed in the same year it was proposed, i.e., 2012; and the UN Convention on the International Law of the Sea where the Philippines case versus CCP Dictators in Brijing is expected to be concluded and announced by the end of the month.

CCP in Beijing has lined up nations far and wide to opposes Asean and the region and to support Beijing against its neighbors -- maritime powers such as Kenya, Montenegro, Gambia among a couple of dozen others that are the same same. Beijing's list of supporters reads like the failed state index.

Call them what you like ...it's the usual cut and paste CCP stuff you print

When USA have ratify the UNCLOS like China , the country will then have legitimacy to comment , otherwise it's hypocrisy if you believe the USA is above any laws sanctioned by the UN and act when it's convenient for the country or is that just superpower arrogance ?

If so , then yes China is guilty of following the example of USA and learning how to be a world power ...setting rules and engagement when it fits their strategic needs.

If not , while don't you also respect the Okinawan residents & their referendum and leave the Japanese bases ?

Is that semi forced occupation : bullying as well because The Central government says yes you can be there but you know the local resident hate the arrangements for many years and been protesting for you to leave ? Why won't you respect the Japanese citizens of the free world and leave ? What's that called ?

Don't just comment on China being a bully ...answer those real questions because this is not deflection

If the USA believe they can act on their own accord , I can't see the argument while China as the world 2nd biggest economy and superpower has to follow what you tell them to do ....I don't see the Russians doing what you want them to do ...irks the USA and nothing you can do about it just like China because these are superpowers ...and they don't argue / bargain at a fair platform

Why does the USA not ratify the UNCLOS / Kyoto Treaty / UN Child Labor Sanctions ?

If it agrees to the points of law on these issues why not sign and ratify it ? What's stopping them ?

Just inconvenient ? Arrogance ? No one can tell Uncle Sam when to sign something ... ?

. You would love to see us leave Okinawa, what agenda, do you have??? And when does CCP sign anything for anyone but their Selfish selves, No one more Selfish than the Chins

[LawrenceChee]

China is feeling very threatened by an encirclement strategy of containment led by the US. I'm half-watching an expert panel discussion now on AJ where the danger is that China will overreact to the Hague ruling, and impose the ADIZ and, combined with the US provocation, this could provoke a conflict.

The experts on the panel feel this is a very high danger risk of conflict at this point. China sees this as a strategic national interest, and sees the US as provocateur and propelling the possible conflict forward.

The main issue to solve this, as Lawrence correctly states, is the economic development imperative, particularly as the economies of the world, including China are in jeopardy. All economies are struggling and the US is seen pushing this primary issue of difference between the US and China, turning other nations against China, instead of negotiating other issues that might help ease pressure here.

One area of common ground, again cited by Lawrence, is the N. Korea issue. Perhaps the US and China could cooperate on this and diffuse the South China Sea issue.

The experts cited Donald Trump as a huge danger of incoherent policy with China, and Clinton seen as continuing the Obama policy. They are not optimistic.

There is more than enough to go around for everyone and from the discussions with Vietnam & Philippines ...honestly all they really want is a royalty piece.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

I have ever once doubted that USA has good intentions in some ways but in the business world , the Asians are more savvy and manipulative.

Both the USA and China can better spend this energy on a real solution with North Korea. This posturing is dangerous between two world giants and the influence of the south is limited in the political spheres of China

Edited June 7, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

China is feeling very threatened by an encirclement strategy of containment led by the US. I'm half-watching an expert panel discussion now on AJ where the danger is that China will overreact to the Hague ruling, and impose the ADIZ and, combined with the US provocation, this could provoke a conflict.

The experts on the panel feel this is a very high danger risk of conflict at this point. China sees this as a strategic national interest, and sees the US as provocateur and propelling the possible conflict forward.

The main issue to solve this, as Lawrence correctly states, is the economic development imperative, particularly as the economies of the world, including China are in jeopardy. All economies are struggling and the US is seen pushing this primary issue of difference between the US and China, turning other nations against China, instead of negotiating other issues that might help ease pressure here.

One area of common ground, again cited by Lawrence, is the N. Korea issue. Perhaps the US and China could cooperate on this and diffuse the South China Sea issue.

The experts cited Donald Trump as a huge danger of incoherent policy with China, and Clinton seen as continuing the Obama policy. They are not optimistic.

With all due respect counselor the post ignores the three principal instruments in the disputes and island building by all of the affected countries. It's that CCP is grotesquely the worst violator, constructing a couple of million acres of new territory -- CCP territory according to the Boyz.

CCP would need to be able to enforce an Air Defense Identification Zone over the SCS or any part of it, which is why Beijing has not attempted to establish one. If CCP went ahead to announce an ADIZ, US and allies would fly through it, they'd do it immediately and have absolutely no doubt of it. CCP would thus be the first to decide whether to pull the trigger or simply and quietly to eat yet more of its own .

The CCP's ADIZ over the East Sea against Japan in 2013 is a miserable failure because CCP knew it could not defend it when it suddenly and with a great surprise to everyone lept out to announce it. CCP did huff and puff it would impose severe consequences on any violators who entered it without permission. So two days later US flew two unarmed nuclear capable B-52s through it. End of CCP's precious ADIZ in the East Sea. It's been swiss cheese since because US and allies Japan and S Korea continue to fly fighter aircraft through it at will -- sometimes all three together, or two of 'em or just the one of us.

Everyone's fastiduously avoiding the term 'red line' so here's what the hawk SecDef Ashton Carter said at the regional security summit in Singapore last week, and a couple of responses....

Speaking at the Singapore forum, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter said the U.S. as an ally of the Philippines would take action, without elaborating on the consequences of a Chinese move.

Carter “was very careful to choose his words to leave the impression that there would be some action taken, but not to draw any red lines,” said Bonnie Glaser, a senior adviser for Asia at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. “This is a critically important question. I believe they [beijing] want to restrict U.S. access over time.”

“I would like to think that what Carter said was a polite way of publicly alluding to a red line that has been privately communicated,” Rory Medcalf, head of the National Security College at the Australian National University, said on the sidelines of the forum.***

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/06/07/asia-pacific/disputed-shoal-may-become-military-line-sand-south-china-sea/

It might be an ADIZ by Beijing or it might be something else that has already been decided and agreed in Washington with allies and partners throughout the region. The 'action' may in actually only be generally and vaguely known to US allies or partners.

This poster is one who reads and discusses a lot about CCP to include over the years. Note in the quote above Bonnie Glaser is cited at the CSIS in Washington. Dr. Glaser has been in the news globally a lot in the past two years. She is a go-to person on these security matters centered on CCP Dictators in Beijing.

This is in contrast to Dr. Elizabeth Economy at the also private, Council on Foreign Relations (in NYC since 1921). Dr. Economy had been the go-to on the CCP economy's boom for ten or twelve years. More recently, however, and after she herself stated the CCP's economy is clunking south, one has to hunt to find her even at her own website.

Money does indeed make the world go round however, there too often comes a time when trade and everything about bucks between countries goes up in smoke because some gang of dictators got too big for their britches. It's up to CCP how far they want to push. There won't be a WW3 or anything like it, nor does there need to be any such thing in the here and now.

It is just that no one should be surprised if it is the 'win without firing a shot' gang in Beijing that decides -- to mix the metaphor -- draw the line in the sand and to make it a red one.

***It is also the case that in respect of this region of the world, Australia almost always has the intelligence that is central to events involving it and the US. Most of the time UK doesn't know due to the unique Australian-US intelligence and military relationship in this region. I'd take the quote from the Australian most importantly.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

China is feeling very threatened by an encirclement strategy of containment led by the US. I'm half-watching an expert panel discussion now on AJ where the danger is that China will overreact to the Hague ruling, and impose the ADIZ and, combined with the US provocation, this could provoke a conflict.

The experts on the panel feel this is a very high danger risk of conflict at this point. China sees this as a strategic national interest, and sees the US as provocateur and propelling the possible conflict forward.

The main issue to solve this, as Lawrence correctly states, is the economic development imperative, particularly as the economies of the world, including China are in jeopardy. All economies are struggling and the US is seen pushing this primary issue of difference between the US and China, turning other nations against China, instead of negotiating other issues that might help ease pressure here.

One area of common ground, again cited by Lawrence, is the N. Korea issue. Perhaps the US and China could cooperate on this and diffuse the South China Sea issue.

The experts cited Donald Trump as a huge danger of incoherent policy with China, and Clinton seen as continuing the Obama policy. They are not optimistic.

With all due respect counselor the post ignores the three principal instruments in the disputes and island building by all of the affected countries. It's that CCP is grotesquely the worst violator, constructing a couple of million acres of new territory -- CCP territory according to the Boyz.

CCP would need to be able to enforce an Air Defense Identification Zone over the SCS or any part of it, which is why Beijing has not attempted to establish one. If CCP went ahead to announce an ADIZ, US and allies would fly through it, they'd do it immediately and have absolutely no doubt of it. CCP would thus be the first to decide whether to pull the trigger or simply and quietly to eat yet more of its own .

The CCP's ADIZ over the East Sea against Japan in 2013 is a miserable failure because CCP knew it could not defend it when it suddenly and with a great surprise to everyone lept out to announce it. CCP did huff and puff it would impose severe consequences on any violators who entered it without permission. So two days later US flew two unarmed nuclear capable B-52s through it. End of CCP's precious ADIZ in the East Sea. It's been swiss cheese since because US and allies Japan and S Korea continue to fly fighter aircraft through it at will -- sometimes all three together, or two of 'em or just the one of us.

Everyone's fastiduously avoiding the term 'red line' so here's what the hawk SecDef Ashton Carter said at the regional security summit in Singapore last week, and a couple of responses....

Speaking at the Singapore forum, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter said the U.S. as an ally of the Philippines would take action, without elaborating on the consequences of a Chinese move.

Carter “was very careful to choose his words to leave the impression that there would be some action taken, but not to draw any red lines,” said Bonnie Glaser, a senior adviser for Asia at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. “This is a critically important question. I believe they [beijing] want to restrict U.S. access over time.”

“I would like to think that what Carter said was a polite way of publicly alluding to a red line that has been privately communicated,” Rory Medcalf, head of the National Security College at the Australian National University, said on the sidelines of the forum.***

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/06/07/asia-pacific/disputed-shoal-may-become-military-line-sand-south-china-sea/

It might be an ADIZ by Beijing or it might be something else that has already been decided and agreed in Washington with allies and partners throughout the region. The 'action' may in actually only be generally and vaguely known to US allies or partners.

This poster is one who reads and discusses a lot about CCP to include over the years. Note in the quote above Bonnie Glaser is cited at the CSIS in Washington. Dr. Glaser has been in the news globally a lot in the past two years. She is a go-to person on these security matters centered on CCP Dictators in Beijing.

This is in contrast to Dr. Elizabeth Economy at the also private, Council on Foreign Relations (in NYC since 1921). Dr. Economy had been the go-to on the CCP economy's boom for ten or twelve years. More recently, however, and after she herself stated the CCP's economy is clunking south, one has to hunt to find her even at her own website.

Money does indeed make the world go round however, there too often comes a time when trade and everything about bucks between countries goes up in smoke because some gang of dictators got too big for their britches. It's up to CCP how far they want to push. There won't be a WW3 or anything like it, nor does there need to be any such thing in the here and now.

It is just that no one should be surprised if it is the 'win without firing a shot' gang in Beijing that decides -- to mix the metaphor -- draw the line in the sand and to make it a red one.

***It is also the case that in respect of this region of the world, Australia almost always has the intelligence that is central to events involving it and the US. Most of the time UK doesn't know due to the unique Australian-US intelligence and military relationship in this region. I'd take the quote from the Australian most importantly.

When I read this posting , I see this from another point / angle and specifically the CCP.

The CCP has said the behaviour of the USA military is brash and provocative and not helpful to the region ; this poster proclaims proudly as most USA reactions & Hollywood movies " in your face man...in your face...what are you going to do " ? We are going to fly against your ADIZ because we can and because we are U.S.A

So the poster and the behaviour of the USA military is irresponsible and acts on its own will without thought of any long term strategic relationship building ...the real danger in Asia is North Korea and not China and yet in trying to checkmate China in its own fear of losing its TOP status , it has failed to understand or help control the real cobra in the region - Mad Kim

I ask this poster ..,if the Chinese & Russians decided today to exercise and ignore the airspace restrictions over the USA and fly at will at you in tandem ...how will you react ?

The Chinese has been restrained in all its interaction, and as the Chinese admiral said recently in Singapore's Shangrila forum ...the CCP does not fear trouble in the region & it will not look for trouble ...so if you believe the panda is weak ...it's in your folly.

This is not for the CCP to push but the USA to push to see what is the max limit it can decide to irritate before they find another region to meddle

So if carrot TOP wins the election and makes the Koreans and Japanese pay for the USA troops stationed there as he promised...what is going to happen ?

I can tell you right now the Philippines can only pay in kind in bananas & mangoes ...I hope you guys like them as you will be getting tons ...they have no pesos to complete their airport highway phase 2 and certainly won't pay your navy so that their president can be escorted by your submarines on his jet ski to plant the flag in the disputed islands ...who is going to look like a fool when carrot TOP spends the next 4 years dismantling all foreign policies because he can and because he is weak in character and has no place for anyone to challenge his ego

Welcome to 4 years of TK (Trump Kim) mansion ...

Edited June 7, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[tonbridgebrit]

China is knowingly rushing into conflict here, in a way the world hasn't seen since the 1930s.

They will take the South China Sea by force - a process that is well under way and now unstoppable.

The rest of the world has to decide whether the region is worth a World War. It isn't, because the other claimants have already lost (being so feckless) and because the Chinese are hardly likely to have territorial aspirations on any mainland. Nor can a World War be justified on principle when the rest of the world has done nothing about China's much more heinous territorial annexation of Tibet and Xinjiang.

Conclusion: there will be a long cold war, but life will go on.

"China's much more heinous territorial annexation of Tibet and Xinjiang."

Do you want to claim that Britain taking over Australia and New Zealand was just as heinous ?

You talk about a cold war ? Do you reckon America and the European Union should import less goods from China as part of this new cold war ?

The comparison with Australia (and the Americas) is valid to the extent that it is also an unstoppable human force - an invasion of sorts - the tectonic plates of history creaking. In any case far bigger things have happened in history and the world has no more than shrugged. The upheaval comes from the societies that are expanding. It's probably a surprise to most people that the world is still evolving in this way, but it is all about competition for resources and it was quite predictable that the newly emerged China would begin to assert itself.

China's actions are still immoral though, because they take place in the modern era, when the world has to a large extent settled down and we know better the consequences of certain actions. They are placing the whole world at risk. When Australia and North America were colonised, those were not nations with cities and universities and organised industry and agriculture etc, but tribes living in a near-state of nature - after thousands of years they were still living in caves and tents. In history, you snooze, you lose.

Should trade with China be boycotted? Why bother? It won't work and everyone will lose. China has won this one through brute determination and numbers. Galling as it is, the rest of the world had better let them them to get away with it. Some things you have to fight a world war over. Not this.

Thanks for the good honest writing.

[tonbridgebrit]

There's a bunch of nonsense on this thread which is muddying the waters. Let me try to address some of it:

>>>> Of course the US, as every other country ww, has rules re; fly-overs of their territory. A primary issue here, in this thread is China commandeering other countries' territory, and then going on to restrict movement in the seas around it, and the air above it. The US hasn't commandeered any territory since, I don't know, Puerto Rico.

>>>> Diversionary posters on here occasionally harken back hundreds of years in the past, when European powers were imperialists. That was the thinking then. Nearly all European possessions have gained independence, some through conflict, some by peaceful processes. For the past 100 to 150 years, European powers and US have matured to realize that imperialism is not the right path. China never learned that. So China is trying to do what European powers did hundreds of years ago ; commandeer territories. It's archaic thinking. We welcome China to the 21st century. They can leave your broadswords and gilded horses behind - put them in a museum.

>>>> Economics are important, but they're not the over-riding concern. Some people think money is God. It's not. Some people frame the imboglio in the SCS (all triggered by China, btw) as all about money. It's bigger than that. It's about being a decent neighbor (don't covet thy neighbor's territory), it's about not restricting movement of boats and planes in international regions, it's about allowing Fil Fishermen to fish in waters off their coast, it's about sanctity of coral reefs and natural habitat, and also about environmental husbandry in general.

We're just at the beginning stages, yet already China is destroying sea life and toxifying the waters. China has barely cranked up its pollution machine. Then later, expect oil spills and ships cleaning out their bilge tanks, and perhaps dumping N waste, and.....?

Trusting China to take care of the natural environment is like trusting a paedophile to take charge of a nursery school.

Boomer, Boomer, can you please not raise the issue of pollution when you attack China.

Okay, on a PER PERSON basis, the USA produces twice as much carbon dioxide emissions as China.

Here is the link from wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

By the way, bearing in mind that lots of the stuff in Walmart is made in China, well, I reckon China should be allowed to release more pollution on a per person basis than America !!

And if you reckon carbon dioxide is not to do with pollution, well, in that case, fair enough, America should carry on releasing twice as much as China on a per person basis.

[boomerangutang]

There is more than enough to go around for everyone and from the discussions with Vietnam & Philippines ...honestly all they really want is a royalty piece.

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

[boomerangutang]

There's a bunch of nonsense on this thread which is muddying the waters. Let me try to address some of it:

>>>> Of course the US, as every other country ww, has rules re; fly-overs of their territory. A primary issue here, in this thread is China commandeering other countries' territory, and then going on to restrict movement in the seas around it, and the air above it. The US hasn't commandeered any territory since, I don't know, Puerto Rico.

>>>> Diversionary posters on here occasionally harken back hundreds of years in the past, when European powers were imperialists. That was the thinking then. Nearly all European possessions have gained independence, some through conflict, some by peaceful processes. For the past 100 to 150 years, European powers and US have matured to realize that imperialism is not the right path. China never learned that. So China is trying to do what European powers did hundreds of years ago ; commandeer territories. It's archaic thinking. We welcome China to the 21st century. They can leave your broadswords and gilded horses behind - put them in a museum.

>>>> Economics are important, but they're not the over-riding concern. Some people think money is God. It's not. Some people frame the imboglio in the SCS (all triggered by China, btw) as all about money. It's bigger than that. It's about being a decent neighbor (don't covet thy neighbor's territory), it's about not restricting movement of boats and planes in international regions, it's about allowing Fil Fishermen to fish in waters off their coast, it's about sanctity of coral reefs and natural habitat, and also about environmental husbandry in general.

We're just at the beginning stages, yet already China is destroying sea life and toxifying the waters. China has barely cranked up its pollution machine. Then later, expect oil spills and ships cleaning out their bilge tanks, and perhaps dumping N waste, and.....?

Trusting China to take care of the natural environment is like trusting a paedophile to take charge of a nursery school.

Boomer, Boomer, can you please not raise the issue of pollution when you attack China.

Okay, on a PER PERSON basis, the USA produces twice as much carbon dioxide emissions as China.

Here is the link from wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

By the way, bearing in mind that lots of the stuff in Walmart is made in China, well, I reckon China should be allowed to release more pollution on a per person basis than America !!

And if you reckon carbon dioxide is not to do with pollution, well, in that case, fair enough, America should carry on releasing twice as much as China on a per person basis.

China is the largest contributor to the Pacific Trash Vortex (google it). Chinese officials don't even acknowledge it exists. They aren't doing any research on it, that we've heard of, and they certainly won't lift a finger to try and clean it up. It's arguably the largest trash dump in the world. A area of sea the size of India where the top 3 meters are plastic goop. All manner of sea creatures eat that goop and die. The plastic is passed up the food chain, ever more concentrated, to top predators, ....which include humans.

Have Chinese or Japanese labs ever tested their fish harvests to gauge how much plastic residue they contain? Probable answer: NO. Has either country sent any ships out to investigate the Pacific Trash Vortex? Same answer. As with practically all other pertinent science, it's farang who are at the vanguard.

[tonbridgebrit]

Boomer, Boomer, can you please not raise the issue of pollution when you attack China.

Okay, on a PER PERSON basis, the USA produces twice as much carbon dioxide emissions as China.

Here is the link from wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

By the way, bearing in mind that lots of the stuff in Walmart is made in China, well, I reckon China should be allowed to release more pollution on a per person basis than America !!

And if you reckon carbon dioxide is not to do with pollution, well, in that case, fair enough, America should carry on releasing twice as much as China on a per person basis.

China is the largest contributor to the Pacific Trash Vortex (google it). Chinese officials don't even acknowledge it exists. They aren't doing any research on it, that we've heard of, and they certainly won't lift a finger to try and clean it up. It's arguably the largest trash dump in the world. A area of sea the size of India where the top 3 meters are plastic goop. All manner of sea creatures eat that goop and die. The plastic is passed up the food chain, ever more concentrated, to top predators, ....which include humans.

Have Chinese or Japanese labs ever tested their fish harvests to gauge how much plastic residue they contain? Probable answer: NO. Has either country sent any ships out to investigate the Pacific Trash Vortex? Same answer. As with practically all other pertinent science, it's farang who are at the vanguard.

Boomer, I've just read about the Pacific garbage patch on wikipedia. Can I just say, it doesn't actually say that China is more responsible than America for this.

Oh, so Chinese and Japanese labs have not done any tests ?

Boomer, this is about demonising China, stop lumping China and Japan together.

Actually, there is that thing called the North Atlantic garbage patch. On wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_garbage_patch

I think the two garbage patches are just as bad. Surely, none of the garbage in that "North Atlantic garbage patch" was thrown in by China ?

Now then, do we accept that China should be allowed to double it's carbon dioxide emissions on a per person basis, (hence, double the amount of pollution it makes), that way, China catches up with the USA on a per person basis. Do we agree ?

Oh, how about tell China "look here, just because we're trashing planet earth, well, that don't mean to say that YOU can also do it".

Might as well tell China "look, just because we took over whatever islands, that don't mean to say that YOU can also do it".

[lannarebirth]

There is more than enough to go around for everyone and from the discussions with Vietnam & Philippines ...honestly all they really want is a royalty piece.

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

[LawrenceChee]

There is more than enough to go around for everyone and from the discussions with Vietnam & Philippines ...honestly all they really want is a royalty piece.

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

You believe a Wikipedia link that China is not a economic superpower ?

Okay imagine you are in university lecture and today your lecturer writes on the board ...China is finished ...if you can write no big deal as your answer then you are correct in your analogy

If you and the rest of the class Whisper " omg ..what's going to happen now to the rest of the world"

then your answer will be slightly different from your posting

[LawrenceChee]

There is more than enough to go around for everyone and from the discussions with Vietnam & Philippines ...honestly all they really want is a royalty piece.

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

It's not condescending Boomer ...its just being practical Asian ....I'm sorry if this is hard to understand for the west

If you are Vietnam and Philippines with so many social and infrastructure projects pending ...would you rather

A) Risk a seabed exploration and Govt funds OR

Do nothing , invest nothing and collect free money

I can tell you , nothing condescending about it ...Keemapoot who has more extensive experience dealing with the Vietnamese will tell you what the answer is for the Vietnamese

I can tell you right now my experience in Philippines that they has zero money to do a project like this and would not take the risk of a hefty loan from the west for something that is unchartered. The new incoming president will not take a loan with the west as he hates it in his perspective of being dependent on the west ...make no mistake about it he is engaging the USA now because the armed service is free and he will brag about this later in his presidency

I would love to see it stay as a marine sanctuary as environmental protection has always been close to my heart but I also understand why the CCP wants to control this to prevent being cornered up by USA and Middle East with their energy sources in your sides of the world.

With this SCS resource secured and their own push in renewal energy , this gives CCP the next step in controlling economic restructuring.

Same reason why Japanese invaded ASEAN in WWII , to secure the base.

Only this time China is trading and negotiating deals and not sinking the HMS Ships and making POWs cruelly along their way like the Japanese.

USA is making a superbly big deal out of this because they can see the economic threat and keeping beating the chest like a gorilla "a conflict is coming "..."ASEAN is being bullied" ...there is no armed conflict happening over this.

honestly the ASEAN government here are probably chuckling and saying "thank you nosy Sam...you just gave us the edge to go back and ask for another 2-4 % on the negotiating table"

[keemapoot]

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

You believe a Wikipedia link that China is not a economic superpower ?

Okay imagine you are in university lecture and today your lecturer writes on the board ...China is finished ...if you can write no big deal as your answer then you are correct in your analogy

If you and the rest of the class Whisper " omg ..what's going to happen now to the rest of the world"

then your answer will be slightly different from your posting

Yes, China surpassed Japan last year by most measures as the world's second largest economy. It is still considerably smaller than the US by most metrics, but most economists and experts consider it the second largest economic power in the world now. By some measures, it is number 1 already.

[LawrenceChee]

There is more than enough to go around for everyone and from the discussions with Vietnam & Philippines ...honestly all they really want is a royalty piece.

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

Plus if you do your Maths ...whatever the GDP number is , divided by 1.4 billion... that kind of dilute the numbers right and skew this comparison right ?

[boomerangutang]

Boomer, I've just read about the Pacific garbage patch on wikipedia. Can I just say, it doesn't actually say that China is more responsible than America for this.

The vortex swirls in a clockwise manner. Plastic trash from Asia comprises between 96 and 99% of the Pacific Trash Vortex.

The other percentage is probably trash dumped from ships + discarded fishing nets. Even if residents of the Pacific west coast of North America dumped plastic trash in the ocean (which they don't) it's highly unlikely that plastic would swirl around clockwise for many thousands of miles to wind up near the Aleutian Islands. Be realistic.

Mexico and Latin American countries are a bit different. I've actually seen Mexicans dumping garbage into the Pacific (35 yrs ago, while traveling on a Mexican ship), but still, that trash would have to travel for 7,000 to 10,000 miles of ocean to get to the PTV.

Oh, so Chinese and Japanese labs have not done any tests ?

Boomer, this is about demonising China, stop lumping China and Japan together.

I'm not demonizing any country, just stating what's going on, ...what scientists are observing.

Actually, there is that thing called the North Atlantic garbage patch. On wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_garbage_patch

I think the two garbage patches are just as bad. Surely, none of the garbage in that "North Atlantic garbage patch" was thrown in by China ?

Not as bad. The Pacific Trash Vortex is many times worse. It's yet another paltry attempt to turn things around.

Similar to when LC is shown that China is embarking on blatant territory grabs in the SCS, he sometimes retorts by saying things like; "well, western countries were imperialist in the past" Two wrongs don't make a right. And the imperialism of western countries was hundreds of years ago. They're matured and realized it was wrong. China hasn't yet realized that imperialism and territory-grabs are wrong.

[boomerangutang]

Western observers, other than environmentalists, don't have problems with China forming joint ventures (with foreign companies/governments) to exploit fossil fuel under the sea bed of territories bordering other countries.

The problem arises when China asserts ownership over territory which is not theirs. After asserting ownership, they then commence to destroy the local natural environment, and then assert the right to control the skies overhead and surrounding regions of sea. Not cool. Plus they do it all clandestinely, with no notice given to anyone. That in itself (the secretive part) is proof they know they're doing things illegally. Another big proof they know they're wrong, is refusing to even consider any rulings by international tribunals, .....even those they've signed on to.

[lannarebirth]

That's doubtful. Vietnam and Philippines don't want their territories commandeered. Yet, in a sense you may be right. If VN and/or Fils happen to decide that it's not worth fighting a powerful Navy to get their properties back, they may settle for royalties. That's why the US role is crucial. If the US decides it's worth it to kick China's butt to retrieve the territory that China comandeered, then it's a game-changer. If the cookie crumbles the other way, and the US doesn't want to risk cyber warfare and the harming of Americans in China, .....then China will win before there's a conflict. However, China will lose lots of face on the world stage (as is already happening).

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

You believe a Wikipedia link that China is not a economic superpower ?

Okay imagine you are in university lecture and today your lecturer writes on the board ...China is finished ...if you can write no big deal as your answer then you are correct in your analogy

If you and the rest of the class Whisper " omg ..what's going to happen now to the rest of the world"

then your answer will be slightly different from your posting

Yes, China surpassed Japan last year by most measures as the world's second largest economy. It is still considerably smaller than the US by most metrics, but most economists and experts consider it the second largest economic power in the world now. By some measures, it is number 1 already.

You make my point. China edges out Japan for Gross GDP and Japan is an economic basket case.

[LawrenceChee]

Boomer, I've just read about the Pacific garbage patch on wikipedia. Can I just say, it doesn't actually say that China is more responsible than America for this.

The vortex swirls in a clockwise manner. Plastic trash from Asia comprises between 96 and 99% of the Pacific Trash Vortex.

The other percentage is probably trash dumped from ships + discarded fishing nets. Even if residents of the Pacific west coast of North America dumped plastic trash in the ocean (which they don't) it's highly unlikely that plastic would swirl around clockwise for many thousands of miles to wind up near the Aleutian Islands. Be realistic.

Mexico and Latin American countries are a bit different. I've actually seen Mexicans dumping garbage into the Pacific (35 yrs ago, while traveling on a Mexican ship), but still, that trash would have to travel for 7,000 to 10,000 miles of ocean to get to the PTV.

Oh, so Chinese and Japanese labs have not done any tests ?

Boomer, this is about demonising China, stop lumping China and Japan together.

I'm not demonizing any country, just stating what's going on, ...what scientists are observing.

Actually, there is that thing called the North Atlantic garbage patch. On wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_garbage_patch

I think the two garbage patches are just as bad. Surely, none of the garbage in that "North Atlantic garbage patch" was thrown in by China ?

Not as bad. The Pacific Trash Vortex is many times worse. It's yet another paltry attempt to turn things around.

Similar to when LC is shown that China is embarking on blatant territory grabs in the SCS, he sometimes retorts by saying things like; "well, western countries were imperialist in the past" Two wrongs don't make a right. And the imperialism of western countries was hundreds of years ago. They're matured and realized it was wrong. China hasn't yet realized that imperialism and territory-grabs are wrong.

USA went into Iraq illegally , lied to a UN council , bullied the smaller nations into supporting the resolution bluffed their closest ally ...and this happened in the last 15 years

So this is not in the past but present ...however if you are above 100 in age then I will gladly give you a pass on this

The west have been extremely hypocritical because they believe CCP is communist and this is China but China is not 100% communist but have morphed in recent times to be more encompassing but the west continue to berate them in Cold War style like this is going to help any conflict resolution

As such China is standing up for its own beliefs and its citizens. 1.4 billion is a lot to take care of and CCP has to make the best decisions for their citizens like any elected government.

Let's not forget Mad Kim as well ....as for the pacific vortex I say lets contribute to a fund and use the Danish scientist method to clean up as much as we can and I will be the first to vote for The Central government to pay for this from the China side

Can the west pay for its rightful share as well to clean this up ? Because oddly the west enjoys pledging big sums of money for all sorts of donation but rarely pay on time to the bodies such as Red Cross , UNICEF etc so it's just good PR and not real action

My general experience is the private sector is way much better at paying up pledged donations than governments S

Edited June 8, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[lannarebirth]

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

Plus if you do your Maths ...whatever the GDP number is , divided by 1.4 billion... that kind of dilute the numbers right and skew this comparison right ?

Can any country with hundreds of millions of its people living in abject poverty call itself an economic superpower?

[Usernames]

Can any country with hundreds of millions of its people living in abject poverty call itself an economic superpower?

Not to mention that almost 400 million of them have never seen a toilet, much less indoor plumbing.

[LawrenceChee]

As for being a superpower - the jury is still out. Being a superpower implies more than military might and economic largesse. It also relies on being helpful to smaller, more-vulnerable groups of people in need. The US has been doing that for decades (albeit not always successfully). China has never done that.

They have no means to develop this natural resource and knowing that they won't get a fair deal if they deal direct with the USA ; smartly they have played on USA naiveness in foreign affairs and played the damsel card and provoking China into a bad negotiating position to offer more on the table.

China resents this meddling as the negotiations was going its way before the USA stepped in and there are also some small circles that are shaking their heads at the USA big hearted behaviour and again the lack of strategic foresight to see it is being played.

That's condescending statement, to say Fils and Vietnamese have no means to develop oil wells. For starters, if China has the tech and skills to drill for oil in the seabed (and it's not sure they do), it's only by way of US technology, most of which was stolen or copied. Secondly, many oil producing countries rely on more technologically advanced and better financed consortiums to do drilling and pumping for them. Quite common around the world.

Who is saying Phils want to drill in their backyard? Perhaps they'd rather leave it in the ground for now.

Best would be the entire sea declared a Marine Sanctuary - off limits to exploitation. But Asians aren't capable of even considering that option. The lure of money is too great.

China, economic superpower? Ranks 85th in per capita GDP, behind such countries as Libya, Iraq and Thailand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#List_of_countries_and_dependencies

Plus if you do your Maths ...whatever the GDP number is , divided by 1.4 billion... that kind of dilute the numbers right and skew this comparison right ?

Can any country with hundreds of millions of its people living in abject poverty call itself an economic superpower?

Yes when you can lift 600 million into middle class into such a short period of time and establish the infrastructure and schools and social structure

Put a race for your Amtrak against Hexia line ...communists win ? How does that feel for the world's biggest democracy and can't get even a train system right ? Taken the Miami light rail system lately and seen the disgraceful state it is in ? Why would the free world nation place the most glamorous hotels on South Beach and yet not upgrade the rail system for the poor ?

Only the rich matter ?

[Usernames]

Can any country with hundreds of millions of its people living in abject poverty call itself an economic superpower?

Not to mention that almost 400 million of them have never seen a toilet, much less indoor plumbing.

How did you get that count ?

Same counting system as in your Florida voting system ? High tech etc ? Why is there still poverty and homeless in USA if your system is so good ?

Actually the count came directly from Fareed Zakaria's program a few days ago, GPS, where he noted that India and China were in a toilet war, with China desperate to get the most toilets before India.

[LawrenceChee]

Can any country with hundreds of millions of its people living in abject poverty call itself an economic superpower?

Not to mention that almost 400 million of them have never seen a toilet, much less indoor plumbing.

How did you get that count ?

Same counting system as in your Florida voting system ? High tech etc ? Why is there still poverty and homeless in USA if your system is so good ?

Actually the count came directly from Fareed Zakaria's program a few days ago, GPS, where he noted that India and China were in a toilet war, with China desperate to get the most toilets before India.

I won't use the world desperate and it's a CNN program ...I would necessity because that is a communist word of provision