Time Up For Some 30 Day Visa Runners

[thaipulse]

Agreed - and yet... Thailand needs teachers to teach their population proper English. Thailand has a very poor level of English knowledge... considering if they've been through high school and college they've had quite a bit. There are plenty of expats living here and speaking English and yet -go to Ubon and you will be hard pressed to find someone speaking enough English to accomplish anything at all.

Teachers that come here - degreed with a bachelors in education or not - won't have the financial resources to actually CONTRIBUTE much financially to the Thai economy other than their teaching...

Others - like me - don't have a degree in Education - only a masters in some other minimally relevant subject - and don't have the financial resources to contribute anything either... but I'm not a criminal, not involved in the drug or human trafficking side of things, never committed a crime and likely wont...

and they are not so happy to have me here either... it's all about money... bringing money in... not taking it out...

My personal view of the whole situation involving changes to teacher qualifications is that Thailand is slow to adapt change... there has been talk and more talk and so much more talk about things changing for years... corruption and looking the other way exists for a reason - the Thais' are not ballbreakers when it comes down to the letter of the law. A payoff here, a kickback there... there will STILL be many thousands of teachers working without work permits in Chiang Mai and the rest of the country... no doubt in my mind.

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

[Jingjok]

are you working in thailand ? if so why cant you get a business and work permit?

if you have income from overseas, why dont you get a retirement visa - i guess you are over 50?

wow- what a situation...

amarka

Erm No.. and No..

Bzzztt.. Next genius please..

hi...

ok then mr genius,

tell me....

what you have been a tourist for 15 years...

or are you going to tell me you are rich and dont need to work - just cant afford a proper business....

dont be shy - lets have the details...

amarka

Yeah I am wealthy enough that I can live in my villa look over the ocean and drink Daquries all day.. For the rest of my life..

And why would I want a business.. I make more in interest than I spend 5- 10x over depending on how my investment portfolio does.. Bother with some little Thai thingand all the headaches of Thai miss management.. Not me my friend..

I have only been here 5 years mind.. I am 33 so was full time retired at 28..

As I said its not tough.. Just tell a clerk to make a shelf company for you and get a non imm B.. Let clerks make some baht and just dont trade the company.. But it is a waste.. Would rather just pay 100k to immigration per year.. Surely they want the money.. Looks like theres enough uses for it.

Just seems kinda stupid that Thailand wants me to go.. Surely 2 mil a year into the economy and no chance of taking anythign from Thailand is a win win for them.. But they make no 'legal' way to stay here..

It is their choice, their country, get over it

I will.. Lets face it you would have to be seriously mentally deficient not to be able to outfox this superb bit of Thai legislation and implementation..

But I will still comment when I see Thais doing things detrimental to Thailand.. It may be thier country, it may be thier rules, but they are not beneficial to Thailand economically and all to simple to ignore.. Lose lose situation !!

Ohh pleeease

LiningLOS, I think your English class is ready, you'd better get back to work.

:-) Yes, it’s most unusual for a genuinely wealthy person to flaunt the fact in such an arrogant manner. Well, it is in my part of the West anyway. And as someone else said THB2M isn’t even a decent car in this overpriced country.

So tell me, LivinLOS, why on earth were you here for so long? I’ll assume you are actually wealthy, and make an allowance for your vulgarity in flaunting it.

I’ve been coming here since 1978 as a tourist, then moved here permanently two years ago (under 50, semi-retired, business in UK), to build a home in Phuket. My policy was to earn money in The West, then spend it in the East. But the house is still not finished: everything here is relatively overpriced, shoddy and unsatisfactory.

I return ‘home’ every few weeks to see my children, so visas are never an issue. Getting a non-imm O or B is easy: just send proof of funds and the (excessive) fee, then it arrives by post in two days.

But I’ve given up. I bought a beautiful place in KL last week - stunning finishing quality. MM2H scheme: long visas, freehold ownership, fluent English, variety, culture, efficient banks, no tax on offshore income, import one car tax free, better food everywhere and cheaper with it. Sorry Thailand, there’s not enough here for me anymore.

I’ll still finish the home in Phuket, stay there on and off, then either rent it or sell it.

So I’m idly puzzled why anyone would want to stay here continuously for 5 years without having family or a woman/women here, and yet be in possession of the resources to travel to other places as well…

There are better villas, and better oceans, and better Daiquiris* elsewhere, as you will know.

* And don't get me started on the poor quality of cocktails on this island! :-)

<off topic rant ends>

[stevenjm]

How are 30 day visa runs an abuse of the system? they have been in place for many years and many people have made lives for themselves under those rules(wifes, homes, kids etc).

You older guys with cash should give them a break and have a bit of understanding on how this is going to effect a large portion of the falang population instead of gloating how your not effected by it.

I really feel for some of you, being an expat with wife and life in cambodia I would be left with nothing if they suddenly decided to boot my ass out after all I have put in here.

anyway remember this is "amazing" thailand.

[CRUNCHER]

Wrong Baboon. The policy was introduced by the elected goverment before it was removed.

[rossigee]

Take your blinkers off, there are more than 3 shelves of long term visitors in Thailand.

Here is another.

Here is another... those that have work back in the UK for 6 mths of the year (during summer - one is a farming contractor, another is a tour bus driver, another is a builder), that work hard in the UK for 6 months of the year so they can blow all their hard-earned cash in Thailand for the other six months of the year (typically Oct-Apr). I know at least one of these guys has already had to book his ticket home before Christmas this year due to these rules and won't be spending half as much money there this year as the years before.

[gpt]

How are 30 day visa runs an abuse of the system?

30 day visa exempt stamps are issued for tourism purposes. A tourist is someone who travels for pleasure, tourism is the practice of traveling for pleasure. Building a house/running a business/living in the country for X years are activities that cannot be defined as tourism. Before anyone says anything, tourist have been known to build/buy houses in countries other than their own and visit for short spells/rent the property out but their main domicile is in their own country. Long staying visa runners are not tourists and are therefore abusing the system.

[stevenjm]

How are 30 day visa runs an abuse of the system?

30 day visa exempt stamps are issued for tourism purposes. A tourist is someone who travels for pleasure, tourism is the practice of traveling for pleasure. Building a house/running a business/living in the country for X years are activities that cannot be defined as tourism. Before anyone says anything, tourist have been known to build/buy houses in countries other than their own and visit for short spells/rent the property out but their main domicile is in their own country. Long staying visa runners are not tourists and are therefore abusing the system.

Sure they are. They are long staying tourists as evidenced by the fact they travel to another country every 30 days.

I know what your saying but its a pretty piss poor way of implementing it with so little notice on people who have made lives for themselves under the old rules.

[davidbkk]

Take your blinkers off, there are more than 3 shelves of long term visitors in Thailand.

Here is another.

Here is another... those that have work back in the UK for 6 mths of the year (during summer - one is a farming contractor, another is a tour bus driver, another is a builder), that work hard in the UK for 6 months of the year so they can blow all their hard-earned cash in Thailand for the other six months of the year (typically Oct-Apr). I know at least one of these guys has already had to book his ticket home before Christmas this year due to these rules and won't be spending half as much money there this year as the years before.

they can get a Visa before they come. your friend who is going home can go get a visa in Laos or Malaysia or somehere else.

[DrDweeb]

How are 30 day visa runs an abuse of the system?

30 day visa exempt stamps are issued for tourism purposes. A tourist is someone who travels for pleasure, tourism is the practice of traveling for pleasure. Building a house/running a business/living in the country for X years are activities that cannot be defined as tourism. Before anyone says anything, tourist have been known to build/buy houses in countries other than their own and visit for short spells/rent the property out but their main domicile is in their own country. Long staying visa runners are not tourists and are therefore abusing the system.

Sure they are. They are long staying tourists as evidenced by the fact they travel to another country every 30 days.

I know what your saying but its a pretty piss poor way of implementing it with so little notice on people who have made lives for themselves under the old rules.

Actually, the visa-run model has been institutionalised with the blessing of Thai authorities (proof by existence). While the system may be designed for "tourists", there has been no attempt to discourage visa-runnner residents in the slightest for decades.

Changing such an entrenched system is bound to cause some problems, especially when there is no real system in place to accommodate the change in administration for the 10s of 000s of visa-runner residents.

Dweeb

[maprao]

Take your blinkers off, there are more than 3 shelves of long term visitors in Thailand.

Here is another.

Here is another... those that have work back in the UK for 6 mths of the year (during summer - one is a farming contractor, another is a tour bus driver, another is a builder), that work hard in the UK for 6 months of the year so they can blow all their hard-earned cash in Thailand for the other six months of the year (typically Oct-Apr). I know at least one of these guys has already had to book his ticket home before Christmas this year due to these rules and won't be spending half as much money there this year as the years before.

They should get a double entry tourist visa in their own country ie UK / USA etc before coming here. With the the extensions this will give them the 6 months they need / want.They are not difficult to get just takes a bit of planning and of course you have to pay for them. I STRESS THE EASE OF OBTAINING THEM IS WHEN YOU DO THEM FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY OF ORIGIN, NOT A NEIGHBOURING ASIAN COUNTRY! I just obtained one (double entry) last month in the USA. $50.

I had just returned back from Thailand after being there on a30 day visa on arrival and had stayed 29 days They were very helpful. Then again the fact my Thaiwife and Thai / farang son were in Thailand helpedbut was not a requirement

Before anyone tries to educate me on non immigrant o visas for people married toThais, I amaware of this but itis not suitable for me as I have to work outside Thailand. Like the people mentioned above.

Edited December 16, 2006 by maprao

[Phil_Pattaya]

I must say that i find it hard to comprehend how some people, who must be quite good business men and who have the funds to live in Thailand year in year out would even contemplate settling there on a Tourist visa, unbelievable. Of course not all but many do like to bend the rules to suit their own agenda and are now finding it hard to beat the system which at last has been tightened up, as is the same for those fake companies that so many have in Thailand.

Is it to avoid taxes in their home country by claiming non-residency and then agian avoiding taxes in Thailand by keeping under the radar on a Tourist visa.

To say that Thais will lose out is nonsense. Obviously not wanting to bring in large amounts of money so Thais are not benefiting from tax on the interest?

These 'Tourists' are only spending money which the ordinary Thai sales person is probably not disclosing anyway thus not paying tax.

As in any country there are rules on immigration to ensure that only those who benefit the country or its nationals or have valid reasons to be there are given visas appropriate to their status, which does not suit everyone but such is life.

[ovenman]

To say that Thais will lose out is nonsense. Obviously not wanting to bring in large amounts of money so Thais are not benefiting from tax on the interest?

These 'Tourists' are only spending money which the ordinary Thai sales person is probably not disclosing anyway thus not paying tax.

What are you saying, that the only way Thailand as a whole benefits from foreigners spening money in the kingdom is if the gov't derives tax revenue from that spending?

[Phil_Pattaya]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

You have only picked out 1 point which has possibly struck a nerve with you but you need to read my post in its full context to understand that this is only 1 reason why long term tourists want to stay

Edited December 16, 2006 by Phil_Pattaya

[Phil_Pattaya]

Anyhow I dont make the rules the Thai govt does and they decide who will benefit their country and obviously the long term residing tourists dont. Time for them to look elsewhere to be a tourist or reside or whatever they class themselves as.

[ovenman]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

Sorry, but you really lost me here. What do you think generally offers greater benefit to Thais on the whole: spending 500 baht having dinner at a local restaurant or putting 500 baht in the government coffers through income tax?

[Jingjok]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can they be a benefit to the Thais?

err... surely those who do nothing still have to eat? And drink? :-) And buy fuel (VAT and duty paid: you can't fiddle that)

So some money from overseas goes into the pockets of Thai traders that wouldn't be there otherwise, which gives more money for said traders to spend elsewhere, some of which might actually be taxed.

This is called an economy.

I've no particular axe to grind here since I'm not a 30-dayer, but do sympathise with those who have made a life based on the defacto rules implemented by immigration for years, whatever the actual 'law' said or says. To suddenly move the goalposts *is* a bit unfair.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Jingjok

[chinadarling]

When is thailand going to get a real immigration system?

[ovenman]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a You have only picked out 1 point which has possibly struck a nerve with you but you need to read my post in its full context to understand that this is only 1 reason why long term tourists want to stay

The only nerve it struck with me is that your point about money spent as taxes versus that same money going into the general economy runs counter to anything I ever learned in the economics courses I took in college (and my apologies to everybody for digressing off-topic, but I really am trying to understand what Phil is saying).

[Phil_Pattaya]

Who knows what the Thais want. The UK will accept immigrants meeting certain criteria as they need foreign workers who then pay taxes which supplements the govts coffers to pay pensions etc. So yes of course taxes are a necessary benefit.

What I am saying is that these residing TOURISTS are not completly playing ball are they?

[SamuiJens]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

You have only picked out 1 point which has possibly struck a nerve with you but you need to read my post in its full context to understand that this is only 1 reason why long term tourists want to stay

Agree, and if a Thai wants to do what most here do, in England, you'll find they can't, so what's your egoist problems!!!

[sriracha john]

It's almost feels like it's beginning to rain here....

oops, sorry.... wrong thread.

[DrDweeb]

No that is not what I'm saying. Those 'tourists 'are the one who dont benefit the country by avoiding paying taxes or running a business or doing anything basically. How can tyhey be a benefit to the Thais?

You have only picked out 1 point which has possibly struck a nerve with you but you need to read my post in its full context to understand that this is only 1 reason why long term tourists want to stay

You need to take Economics 101 - and soon !!

Dweeb

[Phil_Pattaya]

I dont need your advice about economics thanks as I am not interested in it. I am talking about 'the so called 'tourists' who may contribute to the economy by spending money, however they are possibly evading paying taxes in Thailand and possibly their own countries simply by remaining as tourists.

Lets face it tourists are tourists and should expect to be treated respectfully in a foreign country but equally they should respect the country they are visiting by not trying to buck the system as so many do in Thailand and at last the rules are being tightened up.

No one ever heard of global terrorism? Any country with an open door policy is crazy.

I can understand why so many are upset with the rule changes but at the end of the day those people complaning are only TOURISTS on a temporary stay and cannot expect a country to change its laws to suit 'tourists'.

How many long term 'tourists' are there? I am sure that those long term 'tourists' are a minority compared to the tourists who come here on their vacation and then go home, so I cannot see how their disapearance will have much effect on any economy.

I dont really care to be honest as I will be upfront with the proper authorities and pay taxes as necessary. If the laws change and I am unable to stay then I will sell up and go else where. Thailand is not the end all and be all.

If you are not eligible for a 'long term' Visa then sorry but youll have to go, end of.

[endure]

What taxes do short term tourists pay that long term tourists don't?

[Phil_Pattaya]

Exactly my point. Tourists dont pay tax. If you stay long term by border hopping on tourist visa you can evade paying taxes on your income (investments, business, etc) as you wont be classed as resident for tax purposes and you will be under the radar.

This is no doubt 1 reason why the Thai govt has tightened up its rules against those long term 'tourists'.

As I am not a tax expert here is the link to answer any question on tax you might have.

www.rd.go.th/publish/5998.0.html

Edited December 16, 2006 by Phil_Pattaya

[endure]

The only time you pay tax on income in Thailand is if the income is actually earned in Thailand. All externally earned income is tax free. I have a friend who's lived in Thailand for 15 years on income that is earned in the UK. He hasn't, nor does he legally have to, pay tax on it in Thailand so a long term tourist whose income is all earned outside of Thailand is no different to a short term tourist as far as income tax goes. Of course, they both pay VAT on goods that they buy.

[Phil_Pattaya]

Really? Thanks for that and I do hope you are correct, perhaps I have misread the rules then, as I was concerned about CGT until I read them. As I said I will not quote rules as I'm no expert.

[DrDweeb]

I dont need your advice about economics thanks as I am not interested in it. I am talking about 'the so called 'tourists' who may contribute to the economy by spending money, however they are possibly evading paying taxes in Thailand and possibly their own countries simply by remaining as tourists.

Lets face it tourists are tourists and should expect to be treated respectfully in a foreign country but equally they should respect the country they are visiting by not trying to buck the system as so many do in Thailand and at last the rules are being tightened up.

No one ever heard of global terrorism? Any country with an open door policy is crazy.

I can understand why so many are upset with the rule changes but at the end of the day those people complaning are only TOURISTS on a temporary stay and cannot expect a country to change its laws to suit 'tourists'.

How many long term 'tourists' are there? I am sure that those long term 'tourists' are a minority compared to the tourists who come here on their vacation and then go home, so I cannot see how their disapearance will have much effect on any economy.

I dont really care to be honest as I will be upfront with the proper authorities and pay taxes as necessary. If the laws change and I am unable to stay then I will sell up and go else where. Thailand is not the end all and be all.

If you are not eligible for a 'long term' Visa then sorry but youll have to go, end of.

Having proclaimed your ignorance of basic macro-economics and desire to remain in blissful ignorance, it behooves you to cease your pontifications about subject matter of which you are painfully and admittedly ignorant.

Your opinion about what constitutes a "tourist" is that, an opinion (i do not necessarily disagree btw)

You terrorism comment is illogical to put it mildly - please try Logic 101 at your nearest community college.

Your desire to pay taxes is admirable, though largely misplaced in Thailand - probably due to some childhood problem growing up in Scandinavia or some such place. The idea that "economic benefit = pay tax" is not a universal truism or a logical necessity.

The number of 30day visa-runner residents is very substantial and their contribution to local economy is significant. And remember, almost all of these people know a great deal more about the way the Kingdom operates than your average 14 day tourist.

As others have pointed out - the reason that 30 day visa-runner residents exist is because there is NO ADEQUATE VISA for the reasonably well heeled sub-50yo wishing to retire in Thailand, and for those over 50, the hassle and cost has been seen as far greater than the result, especially as Thai authorities have de-facto and/or explicitly accepted the model for decades. Many of the 30 day people will convert, but there will be a group for whom no adequate way to remain legally in the country will exist and their loss will be a net loss to the economy.

Sure, there are some wanting to be below the radar, they will have to find another shallow, but for most, it is just a great deal of hassle that they would rather be without.

It is also well to remember, farangs have almost no rights, we get nothing for free, and we pay "farang-price" for everything. 1 farang is not the economic equal of 1 thai - nor is the equal in legal terms - just ask Steve Millers family !

If Thais really succeed in implementing their xenophobic tendencies and driving the farangs away, it will be to the detriment of their economy - peiod. Same goes for every other developing nation. We have the wealth, capital knows no boundries, and we can vote with our feet.

That being said, I personally do not have a big problem with the 90/180 rule - its a pain, but I can live with it.

[Phil_Pattaya]

I really do not have any interest in economics as I am financially secure. I do not wish to get anyones backs up and do not need advice about my social activites thanks.

You said ''Your opinion about what constitutes a "tourist" is that, an opinion (i do not necessarily disagree btw)'' Please explain my opinion on tourists as when is a tourist not a tourist? If on a tourist visa how are they not tourists?

Your ignorance on terrorism is very strange. Do you not read newspapers or watch television. I think you should start.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Phil_Pattaya

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Stamps or days? Wait and see Lopburi, wait and see......

I hear ya Lopburi - however for someone (not me by the way) who has stayed here for years by doing 30 day visa runs, there clearly will be no difference between the number of stamps and the number of days.

Of course, there are going to be some great arguments between imm and business men who (say) come here 6 or 7 times within a 6 month period, each visit being for only a week.......

I think counting the days is gonna be a lot harder than imm imagined. Then again, TiT.

If the 'business men' had business visa's as they should have, the problem goes away.