Visit Visa Refused

[maikhaojai]

I recently helped my girlfriend apply for a visit visa with a supporting documents folder prepared as per guidelines on this forum. We spent 2 and a half weeks together at the beginning of last year and have now known each other for 1 year. We have kept in touch on the phone and by email and messenger. We decided on a 3 month visit to see how she finds the UK weather and life in general over here before committing to more serious plans to get a settlement visa.

She took the application in on 14/12/06 and was given an interview date of 21/12/06 at 10.30. On the 21/12 however she ended up waiting 3 hours before being told that they were too busy and would have to email her a new interview date. I was pretty confident that we had a strong application, although I knew they could still use the "on the balance of probabilities, you don't intend to return to Thailand" line.

Well, this morning she phoned to find out when the new interview date would be and was told to go and collect her documents from the VAC. She was given the supporting documents with a refusal letter attached...

"I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your sponsor and thus your sponsor's intention that you should leave the UK at the end of your visit. However, the Immigration Rules require me to be satisfied about your intentions, not those of your sponsor. Guarantees by a sponsor are not enforceable in law and cannot therefore be accepted as evidence of an applicant's intentions. This is not to doubt the bona fides of your sponsor but is a statement of fact. Furthermore, whilst I am satisfied that your sponsor will bear the full costs of your visit in order to assess your intentions I must take into consideration your own personal and financial circumstances in Thailand.

You state you are employed at ****** with a monthly income of 15,000 baht (approx. £214). The only evidence of this is and employment letter that could easily have been produced on a word processor. As evidence of your employment it is not convincing. You have failed to provide a copy of your bankbook or other credible evidence of your claimed income. Furthermore, I do no find it credible that your employer would be able to give you the three months leave, especially given you claim to have only recently commenced employment. Taking this into consideration, and that you have two young children whom you are financially responsible for, I am, therefore, not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that your economic circumstances are as you claim and that you are genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated, not exceeding six months as required by Rule 41 (l) HC 395 or that you do not intend to take employment in the United Kingdom as required by rule 41 (iii) HC 395.

I appreciate you have children here, however, you are satisfied that they will be cared for sufficiently to take a three month visit to the UK. I am, therefore, not satisfied that they are sufficient incentive for you to leave the UK. I therefore consider that you have failed to show sufficiently strong family, social or economic ties to satisfy me, on the balance of probabilities, that you intend to leave the United Kingdom on completion of a short visit as required by Rule 41 (ii) of HC 395."

She has been in her job for nearly 8 months now and her employer is fine with her taking 3 months out. The employment letter was produced on a computer, which I am sure, so was the embassy's. The problem is that her boss told her he was too busy to do it, but if she brought him a prepared letter he would check and sign it. It was not printed on headed paper, although it did state how long she worked there, and that her job would be kept open and then signed by her boss. I would have thought if they doubted the letter they would have at least checked it by making a quick phone call.

Can somebody please advise what we can do from here/ how we can make another application.

I remember reading something about owning land possibly being considered reason to return according to the rules. Her mum owns some land and was going to leave it to her, but could transfer it to her name now if it would help.

In the refusal letter there doesn't seem to be any doubts about our relationship, unless they listed enough reasons already. In my letter of sponsorship, I mentioned that we want to apply for settlement in the future, which I thought would show that we would not want to jeopardise her chances in the future

I am now considering going straight for the settlement visa as this would mean that the current reasons for refusal would not apply and we can finally be together again.

[apetley]

Land and property in your girlfriends name and alot of money in the bank are a plus as far as the embassy is concerned.

By all means she could transfer her parents property into her name for a while.

This is what my sister in law did so she could visit my wife in the UK last year when she got two VVs(very lucky I think!).

I would get another(better) letter from her employer if possible along with his phone number and maybe a shorter visit to UK would count in her favour too.

[rcm]

I am now considering going straight for the settlement visa as this would mean that the current reasons for refusal would not apply and we can finally be together again.

My Friend did have the same issue on the Vistors Visa and ended up doing the settlement Visa which was given without much hesitation....

good luck

[lapamita]

. We decided on a 3 month visit to see how she finds the UK

You state you are employed at ****** with a monthly income of 15,000 baht (approx. £214).

OK,ask your self first,,,,any employer in thailand would receive holiday for 3 month nobody!!! thats the frist point why they denied!

\the first aplication i made on an embassy, was with my evidence of incomming , on the day of interview,,i told the girl, speak sure, and not gohok!

the question what she was working was answerd by us, with " what you think a girl in pattaya is working,,like all other in a bar/restaurant{i not mentioned beerbar},but at this minute i said this, interview was finished, and receive visa the same day.

they here lies all day over.

but in generall, after 2001, nearly all european countrys denies most visaaplication, even to me in 2002( last time i asked),,, because of f******* shit problem with muslimterror and sept 11.

i hate it all over f******** visa shit all over!!! and even thialand is starting the same

to get a girl to europe ,who is aged under 30 is nearly in 90% of cases without marriage impossible now..................................

[fisherd3]

If you are seriouse about obtaining a UK visitors visa and have the tenacity to deal with the UK immigration laws to take into account their loading against success the first point is to apply for a visa that takes its conclusion beyond the whim of the ECO, which a visitors visa does not (no substantive appeal).

The second step is to involve your Member of Parliament from Day1, so he the travesties that go on are made known to the lawmakers, as changing the law is the only remedy.

[Thaddeus]

The second step is to involve your Member of Parliament from Day1, so he the travesties that go on are made known to the lawmakers, as changing the law is the only remedy.

That may help with some people, but in this instance, it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference. The ECO quite clearly states that they do not have a problem with the sincerity of the sponsor.

They also state very clearly why the application was refused. The reason, a typed up letter that could have been produced by anyone with access to a computer and printer.

If the application had been made with that letter on company paper with a copy of the company registration docs, it would have probably succeeded.

Wait a month or so, get better documentation and apply again.

Do not get married just to get a visa.

(P.S. .... to a couple of posters, look up the percentage pass rate for visit visors to the UK, words like impossible do not apply, difficult and requires preparation do)

[Phil_ne_uk]

She took the application in on 14/12/06 and was given an interview date of 21/12/06 at 10.30. On the 21/12 however she ended up waiting 3 hours before being told that they were too busy and would have to email her a new interview date. I was pretty confident that we had a strong application, although I knew they could still use the "on the balance of probabilities, you don't intend to return to Thailand" line.

Well, this morning she phoned to find out when the new interview date would be and was told to go and collect her documents from the VAC. She was given the supporting documents with a refusal letter attached...

Because the embassy scheduled an interview and then didn’t grant one are they not in breach of the visa rules in some way?

Should this perhaps loophole give maikhaojai or his g/f grounds to complain?

[RAZZELL]

I guess the OP is the same guy who posted here:

http://thailand-uk.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...4981#5321064981

The answers are still the same:

1) Embassy doesn't have to give an interview.

2) Bits of paper that look a bit "dodgy" although genuine don't help, therefore no "legit" poof of job, income, assets etc

3) The KILLER... you haven't been to Thailand to see your "GF" in a year.... No proof of "physical" contact...Which means IN PERSON Not just phone calls, internet, Msn, Yahoo, Skype, whatever...

Get on a plane and get over a few times...It'll give you a chance to get to know each other more...Then apply again in 6 months...Look on the bright side, the weather will have improved in the UK and she might not hate it so much

RAZZ

P.S. All the best

[the scouser]

Although largely irrelevant to the decision, I think the embassy's handling of the application can be criticised: to invite someone in for interview, cancel the appointment, and then refuse without interview is rather unprofessional.

I can see where the OP is coming from when he states that he's thinking about going straight for the settlement visa, but, personally, I don't believe that people should jump the gun if their true intention is a visit. The embassy appears to have focussed upon their perception that the girlfriend's employment is not genuine. Although a quick telephone call wouldn't hurt, the onus is on the applicant to demonstrate that their circumstances are as stated, and, if the supporting evidence does not meet the required standard, the visa officer is under no compulsion to double-check.

In this situation, I would apply again, presenting a letter from the employer on headed notepaper which states how long the girlfriend has worked for the company, her job title, her salary, that 3 months' leave has been granted and that she has a job to return to. This should be backed up by pay slips and bank account evidence.

Scouse.

[atlastaname]

First a big thanks for posting the refusal notice. Makes it FAR easier to give relevant help. If only everyone did this ....

It is easy to be outraged by a refusal especially when you know its a genuine relationship. However , having read the refusal notice, it is easy to see why it was refused , and believe it or not the refusal was not particularly unreasonable. You say you had help from this forum before , so i am surprised that you weren't advised about a couple of quite fatal flaws in your application.

Firstly, and no-one else seems to have touched on this , i am always advising people against asking for too long on a visit visa. I know the official websites are somewhat deceptive(intentionally?) on this subject but just because they say blithely that you can apply for up to six months, 1 year , 2 years even 10 years they don't point out in the real world its very very different. Realistically normal people (95% of us i guess) if they get the visa at all will only get given 6 months . But worse still when you apply they expect you to ask for 1 or maybe 2 months. Ask for more and you get more hassle and in your case a refusal. I can't say it often enough , a visit visa should be restricted to asking for 4-6 weeks to increase your chances of getting it. Look at it from the ECO's point of view. Someone working being allowed a 3 month holiday ... you have to admit it sounds suspicious even if it isn't.

Second point is as Razell says, nowhere near enough physical contact.

I could go on , the application is full of weak points , and thats why i'm surprised that you got help here first and still had a weak application.

I mean take the letter from her employers, you must see it has to be on headed notepaper . By not doing so you have gifted them a reason to refuse on which they can pad out to a paragraph.

Scouser makes a good point in that they acted unprofessionally, in giving and then withdrawing the interview and then refusing. Unfortunately , it doesn't matter that they did act in this way. They can , they have , and you are refused and no amount of complaining about their action will help in the end. All the power is loaded with them , especially on a visit visa.

All you can do is go for the settlement one , and how many times have i said how absurd it is that to be together people have to marry even when they don't want to, or follow advise given above by others , and re-apply for the visit one but address all the problems in the refusal notice.

[Phil_ne_uk]

I must admit, years ago without the help of the forums it would be almost impossible to get any sort of visas!

Having said that, it was a h@ll of a lot easier many years ago. The embassy didn’t make it so dam difficult back then!

[the scouser]

Thread tidied up.

I'm sure the OP didn't post his question for the thread to degenerate in to a slanging match.

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

Thread tidied up.

I'm sure the OP didn't post his question for the thread to degenerate in to a slanging match.

Scouse.

I was typing when the last few posts have obviously come in, if I have commented on a point that you have tidied up, then it was purely accidental.

Cheers,

Good Luck

Moss

[atlastaname]

Its always amusing to see the depth of feelings these immigration matters generate. Some of the deleted posts had really good points made , a pity that most will now be unable to read them . Phil and Mark , you made good points that the authorities don't want the populus to know.

We all know religeon causes the most suffering and conflict in the world, i am beginning to think immigration is a close second because it brings head to head those who try to live their lives without interfering in other peoples (like me ), and those whose lives revolve around telling others how they should lead their lives.

[Phil_ne_uk]

Below is part of my previous post that was deleted. This part wasn’t slagging anyone off so I’m posting it again. Hopefully this post is acceptable Scouser?

“The visa rules are too stringent and prevent many genuine couples from being together.

When genuine couples face problems unjustly, it’s often best to go straight to their MP. I did and got a result when my g/f reapplied 3 months later. I reckon many times they just refuse the first application to be difficult and to get more money from the application fees for the greedy UK government!”

[maikhaojai]

First of all, I would like to thank you all for your valued input.

I spoke to my GF again and it seems that she did not understand when I was asking about her employment letter being on headed paper. We were talking about the posts on this forum saying that it is mostly down to the letter being on plain paper and she assured me that it was on a letterhead, signed by her boss and rubber stamped!

I phoned the embassy this morning to discuss this with the ECO, however I was only able to speak to a Thai lady who advised me that they needed more evidence, such as wage slips or her bank book proving her income as an employment letter is not enough.

Now, a question regarding the post by Thaddeus:

a 3 month holiday is not standard, but if the applicant has it in writing from a reputable company, it cannot be disputed, and if it is, then you have reason to complain.

In the refusal letter, it does seem that the employment letter is being disputed so is this grounds for a complaint?

She gets paid cash fortnightly and doesn't get wage slips so it really is the only evidence we can provide, although I have asked her to speak to her boss and see if it is possible to get payslips. The lady at the embassy advised me that Tang would now need to put her money into the bank so there is a record of her regular income for 6 months then re-apply!

The only reason we decided to apply for a visit visa first is that we thought it would be easier to get and would then improve our chances of getting a Fiance visa. I know that by now, we haven't physically been in contact for 1 year so in order to go down that route I will probably have to visit her in Thailand again.

I would appreciate opinions on this because as much as I would love to go back to Thailand soon, it is an expense I was not counting on so would set back another application for her to come here by a couple of months or more.

[markr]

Can i ask if she has been saving for the trip? If she has no wage slips then you need to explain this to them, show the bank book and any statements she has from the bank, basically if the embassy have to think about anything then they wont! Its your job to cover every little bit of the application thouroughly

Write letters carefully explaining everything, tell them why she has no proof of income and do the same with every part of the application

Do it as if for example, you were explaining it to a child, clearly and concisely

Mark

P.s as for the employment letter, if they believe it to be a fake then that is good enough to refuse the visa, as with anyother docs they dont have to prove there fakes, if they think it is they will refuse!

Edited January 4, 2007 by markreed

[atlastaname]

Look first of all forget any ideas you have of complaining. Visit visas are , if you like, the lowest form of visa , and don't even attract the right of appeal. Once refused unless you have really solid ground for showing they have made some fundamental error, you will not get it overturned , especially in your case .

From your phone call they have practically told you to wait for 6 months , get her to pay her money in , and then re-apply. Understand even if you do this there is a multitude of other things that could get her refused next time.

So its not a done deal by any means , but you would have a better chance as you would address all the refusal letter points before re-applying....wouldn't you.

You say you thought the visit visa was easier to get !! whatever gave you that idea? or maybe it was the deceptivally welcoming official websites?

You do not have to have had a visit visa to get a fiance one. You only have to have physically met,which you have.

Its really not clear what exactly you do want from this girl . Do you want a visit or , as i suspect , a relationship and living together? Yours seems to be complicated by what appears to be a shortage of money on your part. Going to Thailand for a holiday is almost as cheap as staying in the UK (because its so expensive here) so its hard to see how that would put such a financial strain on you that you would have to delay your applications by months if you do go. Remember that whatever visa she eventually applies for , if you are the sponser you do need to show a degree of money and accomodation which you make it sound like you don't have . So i am confused.

If you don't want to wait 6 months for an uncertain visit visa , then ask for a fiancee one. You don't have to go to Thailand to do this but the fact that you have been apart so long makes me wonder how serious a relationsahip you both have. Its hard to advise because i for one am unclear exactly what you really want.

[markr]

Correct me if i'm wrong guys but, if maikhaojai offered that he was going to sponsor/pay for her trip and write a letter to that effect, would they in that case, really need to see her wage slips next time they apply?

Mark

[the scouser]

Correct me if i'm wrong guys but, if maikhaojai offered that he was going to sponsor/pay for her trip and write a letter to that effect, would they in that case, really need to see her wage slips next time they apply?

Mark

The embassy wouldn't necessarily want to see the wage slips as evidence of her ability to pay for the trip, but, rather, as further evidence that she has a job to go back to.

Sometimes the applicant is in an invidious position. The embassy knows full well that in Thailand (and other countries, too) people are paid in cash and may neither pay their salary in to a bank, nor even have a bank account, but still chooses to impose a British "standard", and insist that the lack of wage slips and a bank account cast doubt upon the claimed employment.

Scouse.

[atlastaname]

Correct me if i'm wrong guys but, if maikhaojai offered that he was going to sponsor/pay for her trip and write a letter to that effect, would they in that case, really need to see her wage slips next time they apply?

Mark

Its a good point Mark , but they could do. For example, if they are looking at the reason to return criteria , she is saying she has a good job and has worked for x number of months/years. So they may decide they want to see regular salary going into her account to match her story. Just one example. You know as well as anyone the unpredictable behaviour of the ECO's . There is no telling what they will ask for because unfortunately its not set in stone on the application form like it should be. And deliberately so.

[Phil_ne_uk]

Sometimes the applicant is in an invidious position. The embassy knows full well that in Thailand (and other countries, too) people are paid in cash and may neither pay their salary in to a bank, nor even have a bank account, but still chooses to impose a British "standard", and insist that the lack of wage slips and a bank account cast doubt upon the claimed employment.

Scouse.

So what's the solution to this problem then Scouse? how can maikhaojai get around this?

[markr]

I think thats the whole point of them doing it, you can't!

Mark

Edited cos i got bitchy again

Edited January 4, 2007 by markreed

[Phil_ne_uk]

Edited cos i got bitchy again

Don’t be silly Mark, you were just being truthful! lol

[the scouser]

The approach will depend upon the individual application.

In the OP's case, I would submit the employer's letter and explain the lack of wage slips and bank account in a covering letter. There's no guarantee that this would work, but I would argue that it such an explanation would be reasonable, and attain the balance of probabilities, which is the applicable legal burden in such matters.

Of course, there is no right of appeal in non-family visit visa applications, but the decisions are open to challenge in the High Court through judicial review. Additionally, you can approach UK Visas for a review, go to your MP, and write to the Parliamentary Ombudsman, who monitors the standard of decision-making in non-appealable visa refusal cases.

Scouse.

[maikhaojai]

Ok, for clarification of some of the above points...

markreed

Can i ask if she has been saving for the trip? If she has no wage slips then you need to explain this to them, show the bank book and any statements she has from the bank

She has a bank account but not much money in it and hasn't been paying regularly into it.

markreed

Write letters carefully explaining everything, tell them why she has no proof of income and do the same with every part of the application

I didn't take into account how awkward the embassy can be and assumed that this was why they interviewed applicants. She should have been given a chance to answer these points at the promised interview.

atlastaname Its really not clear what exactly you do want from this girl . Do you want a visit or , as i suspect , a relationship and living together?

atlastaname You don't have to go to Thailand to do this but the fact that you have been apart so long makes me wonder how serious a relationsahip you both have.

We want to live together and were going to apply for a settlement visa straight away, fully aware that we would need to marry within 4 months and probably make plans before then.

I was doing temporary work until May this year, which meant no regular income, which is why it has taken so long to apply for a visa with all the required paperwork.

I didn't want to get into the specifics of our relationship because although I have just become a member of this forum, I have been reading it since I came back from Thailand and know the kind of "friendly" advice I am likely to get about my relationship.

atlastaname

Yours seems to be complicated by what appears to be a shortage of money on your part. Going to Thailand for a holiday is almost as cheap as staying in the UK (because its so expensive here) so its hard to see how that would put such a financial strain on you that you would have to delay your applications by months if you do go.

Although Thailand is a lot cheaper than UK, I still have bills to pay and aside from that my living expenses aren't very much, certainly nowhere near the £1,500 it would cost me to go there for 3 weeks.

atlastaname

Remember that whatever visa she eventually applies for , if you are the sponser you do need to show a degree of money and accomodation which you make it sound like you don't have .

My finances and accommodation are sufficient to support my GF, however my savings are limited and were supposed to be for getting the visa, getting her over here and showing her some of the UK on arrival. (I've saved my holidays and have 4 weeks to take when she arrives)

Finally a question regarding Scouses post

In the OP's case, I would submit the employer's letter and explain the lack of wage slips and bank account in a covering letter. There's no guarantee that this would work, but I would argue that it such an explanation would be reasonable, and attain the balance of probabilities, which is the applicable legal burden in such matters.

Of course, there is no right of appeal in non-family visit visa applications, but the decisions are open to challenge in the High Court through judicial review. Additionally, you can approach UK Visas for a review, go to your MP, and write to the Parliamentary Ombudsman, who monitors the standard of decision-making in non-appealable visa refusal cases.

Since I didn't submit a covering letter, do we have the right to challenge the decision or ask for it to be reviewed this time?

[the scouser]

Since I didn't submit a covering letter, do we have the right to challenge the decision or ask for it to be reviewed this time?

You could, but in the absence of a covering letter with the refused application, I'd apply again and seek, as far as possible, to cover all angles.

Scouse.

[markr]

I asked about savings because if she had been regulary putting money into her account then they would be able to tell she was getting a regular income, it was just an idea and thought it might help your case.

As for the friendly advice.... Yes lots of people dish out sacasm and bullshit comments but the guy's here will truly help you if you give them all the info!

Always remember most of the folk's on here have been in the same boat as you!

Good luck

Mark

Edited January 4, 2007 by markreed

[RAZZELL]

Like I said...get on a plane...

1) You now have an official record of your "relationship" in your 1st Visa application.

2) The ECO obviously wants more evidence that the relationship is genuine. This gives your another 6 months to get it. Asking questions with a view to getting a better application in next time is fine...But from what I know of other people's situations, 99% of time complaining = pissing in the wind.

3) A visit will give proof of more personal contact, photos etc

4) If you can't afford it...go for 2 weeks, cheaper flight (non-direct), cheaper, room etc etc. If you really want it...it's doable.

Again, all the best...I'm posting to state the harsh realities. Good luck

RAZZ

Edited January 4, 2007 by RAZZELL

[maikhaojai]

If I have to apply again, I would like to apply for a Fiancee visa.

I know the embassy can find an excuse to refuse if they want to, but could anyone pre-empt any problems I might have