andyinkat

You don't actually think that we are like that now, do you? 

Actually I am a Brit mate, and was a huge Harry E fan back in the old days of Ben Elton et al.

I've spent the last couple of years in Nepal and India with many deeply devout Hindus and Buddhist families. My serious point is that they would not see any irony at all in that list - it would make a perfectly straight 'manual' for girls. I know many who adhere to these 'rules' perfectly and I have to say I am in awe of them; yes, I can honestly say I would rather have a what the West would label an 'old fashioned' wife than the 'modern' farang relationships I've experienced.

Regarding the actual article in question about the Vietnamese lady who has made it in the US, my first post was purely tongue-in-cheek but the truth is I suspect we would have too little in common in terms of shared interests and aspirations. That's all.

DK - I think I sort of covered these issues. As I wrote, both bad thoughts/actions and 'good' thoughts/actions generate the karma that leads to rebirth, or continued existence within samsara. 'Pure' actions trancend karma, rebirth and thus lead 'out' of samsara.

Thus a 'pure' action might on a worldly level seem immoral but is actually skilful. Examples include the story in a Mahayana Buddhist scripture of an enlightened being manifesting as a prostitute because her clientele of fishermen were never going to listen to the preachings of monks (pertinent for LOS, no?)

However Buddhist teachings do tend to stress that one must start from the beginning - learn to walk before you run, spiritually speaking. Start by keeping the Five Basic Precepts strictly before engaging in 'skilful' interpretations that are only proper for highly developed practitioners.

I have come across so many instances of westerners getting so lost in their ignorance and ego that they selectively pick out certain teachings from Zen and Tantra and the episodes which involve the highly realised wisdom of exceptional masters and think that they have the spiritual authority to behave like that. They carefully pass over the bit where the Zen master spent 20 years practising zazen in a monastery or the tantric master spent 25 years in isolation in a Tibetan cave before they displayed their 'crazy wisdom'.

So I'm saying that your quotations are quite right, but that they are very open to misinterpretation and it is better to get a solid grasp on the relative realm of good and bad before looking to transcend them.

As for suffering and ignorance - I think some of the Mahayana sutras such as the Diamond Sutra discuss this beautifully. The enlightened being knows all is illusion and there is no suffering, but he/she also knows that deluded beings have the real experience of suffering and looks upon them with compassion. It would be quite unbuddhist to see the scenes on the TV of Dafur in Sudan or NE India and say, 'Well they're just deluded'. On a relative level suffering is real, and since we are all operating on that relative level we must do what we can to reduce suffering in the world.

The really scary thing about that is how it's supposed to be comedy back in Farangland!

Laos, Nepal - there are many fascinating countries in Asia but some have unfriendly visa regulations.

But never never never back to Farangland!!!!

For me Rascal said it all. It is 'each to his own' - I've been previously emotionally damaged by 'strong women' who love to start arguments so I prefer a quieter more subservient type of partner.

But I absolutely agree that I as a Farang have to make maximum effort to assimilate to her culture rather than the other way round.

My personal take is that great sex and looks are the least important attributes, and that 'mental compatibility' comes in many guises. It need not be equal IQ or shared interest in stamp collecting; what I look for is a good heart and shared aspirations and vision about the meaning of life.

'Substance or Empty Vessel':

Substance implies already full, no room for anything new. I hope I never become a 'man of substance' and I hope that both myself and my future life partner are both perennially empty vessels (but not ones that 'make the most noise'!)

You're right qwertyuiop, Nong Khai was listed 7th in some poll about favoured retirement destinations for AMERICAN retirees. Bit odd really since it's not as if there's millions of them here. Sounded to me like one of those polls tryin gto boost business.

I wonder if the OP wouldn't find it a bit quiet, but as others have said the only way to find out what he wants is to come to LOS, travel around extensively until he finds what is right for him.

Darknight,

Yes, fully agree with all that. As I wrote, because of our ignorance we cannot KNOW when/if we meet an enlightened being, hence the need for faith.

And I agree with DK and Strawberry that Westerners get far too obsessed with the notion of enlightenment - on one level it certainly doesn't matter. My motivation in my meditation and daily life is never 'enlightenment', but I can say from extensive experience that if you want to seek out a real teacher if possible it is far better to put your trust in one who is enlightened rather than one who is not.

Sabaijai - you are quite right in pointing out that Lord Buddha (quite deliberately in my view) rarely spelt out exactly what enlightenment is. However I'm not sure I'd want to draw a sharp line between enlightenment and nibbana in the Theravadan tradition; it becomes quite different in Mahayana. The momentary experience you refer to I think is what Zen emphasises with the concept of satori, and Theravadan teachers often refer to it with phrases such as 'a glimpse of enlightenment'. I think that when all those moments join up so that every momentary dharma is an enlightened dharma that is full enlightenment.

Whereas the Tipitika (or at least the Suttapitaka - I think the Abhidhamma is different) is cagey about spelling out too 'legalistically' what enlightenment is, there are many many examples of enlightened people. They are the arhats/arahats/arahants. There are two whole books in the Tipitaka dedicated to the songs/poems of such people describing poetically and thus subjectively and impressionistically what it is to be enlightened -the Theragatha and Therigatha. The latter - 'Songs of Enlightened Women' is the only text composed by women that appears in the canon of any major religion in the world.

All schools of Buddhism accept the idea of the cycle of history whereby when a Buddha appears to 'Turn the Wheel of the Dharma' the Earth enters into a 'golden age' where it is relatively easy to understand the Dharma and attain enlightenment, but that as time goes on the Dharma becomes more difficult to understand or corrupted and spiritual progress becomes harder and harder. When the Dharma becomes completely lost a new Buddha (next one being Maitreya, or Mettaya in Pali) will manifest. Currently we are in the Kali Yuga or 'dark age' where pure Dharma is difficult to find, difficult to practice and difficult to reach the goal. Personally I'd say that without having to accept the whole cosmological system that pretty much accords with my assessment of the world today!

Most schools of Buddhism and most emphatically Theravada draw the conclusion that therefore in the present age it is very very difficult to attain enlightenment. I think that if you asked knowledgeable and experienced monks in Thailand this question, most would answer (beyond the perfectly acceptable and accurate 'don't know', 'who can say', doesn't matter' etc.) that a very small number (probably in single figures) of the greatest masters who have passed away in the last century were enlightened. Mahayana (Zen and Tibetan forms being the major ones in the West) would have a different take but that would turn this post into an essay!

Does Ken know about this Ying?

don't worry - we won't say anything!!

So pleased you put your photo back up by the way.

Hey Ying, are you by any chance a northern girl? Probably not but if you are we'd be interested if you gave us your thoughts on the thread called 'Northern Country Princesses' in the Farang Pub forum.

QUOTE 

an orphan is preferrable :'), not thai-chinese, no baggage

Umm if she is an orphan why would she have baggage ???

Er, parents viciously tortured and mutilated before her eyes?

Parents don't want her so take a taxi to a remote spot and throw her out to fend fo rherself (not exactly an orphan but same same; I found myself taking in a wee lad under such circumstances and he was an emotion wreck for a time)?

Fending for herself in the jungle law of the streets?

Plenty other possibilities.

Ah - reality check Stroll!

I was referring to the farang relationships I had back in Farangland before I left it for good. The Western women - and men for that matter who visit or work in Nepal tend to be - how can I say? - the 'best' sorts of westerners.

And yes, when after a year and a half of keeping women at arms length I did venture into a relationship it was an unmitigated disaster and I'm still beating myself up over it. Nevertheless I hope I've learnt from that one, am a lot wiser and am now ready for a whole new disaster with a nice Thai lady!

So you've been reading my scarily frank weblog - gulp!

For me the answer is in your word 'unworldly'.

Bangkok is so cosmopolitan and girls are exposed to all the 'worldly' values of consumerism. I personally (a) have no money and ( hate all that neo culture; i.e. I'm 'unworldy'.

So I like a girl of simple pleasures, simple values and isn't obsessed with accumulating stuff. And doesn't mind that I'm as poor as her parents and don't even have a buffalo.

BTW apart from 18 yr olds there are many very sweet and innocent ladies in their 20s and 30s. Of course there aren't many farangs up north so they aren't exposed to much English. I find that an advantage; one of my many disaffections with farang women is that they never bleedin' stop talking. Women everywhere are the same but at least if yo udon't share a common language she has to chew someone else's ear off - ah the peace!

But that's just me. I don't claim to be normal.

Nah, I bet she's clueless in the kitchen and crap with a duster.

I'd say Cobra's seriously on the button there.

Next, I went and posted another separate description along the lines 'overweight, balding, bearded man, slight odour problem, but weathly seeks hot young Asian woman etc etc' 

I'd be very interested to see how your experiment panned out if you stressed that you were broke! Maybe two shots - good looking and broke, and ugly and broke. That would be very revealing. Care to give it a go?

Posh bloke and Ying,

I think the deal is this - if you want to post photos give us ones of Ying! She looks lovely postage stamp size but we want to see her lifesize, just so we can reassure ourselves that you're a lucky lucky guy Ken!

The most concise answer I can give to this question is, 'Yes, I believe I have.'

However the question does beg the bigger one which is 'what is enlightenment?' That's been discussed in another thread I think, and I'm going to short-circuit matters by not entering into that debate here. [postscript - oh, I think I did!]

So, I wrote that I believe I have. I chose my words carefully - my view is that there is no objective answer to the question. It's not like 'have you met a millionaire'. Rational thinking starts with 'the world out there' and assumes certain objective truths. Buddhism starts with 'the world in here' and posits what you perceive is governed by the state of your mind. Thus, if your mind is in a certain state you will see enlightenment in a person whereas the next person won't see it.

My mind is not very spiritualy developed, so from my somewhat ignorant perspective I can say that certain individuals I have met have had a presence that led me to see them as enlightened. These individuals include His Holiness the Dalai Lama and my teacher who without ever telling me to do anything has inspired me let go of all possessions and attachments and lead a monastic-like life in the cause of the Dharma. There have been others I have met but interestingly amongst the many highly-regarded western teachers and practitioners of the Dharma I have not yet met one who has that certain ineffable 'thing' that those who have been born into countless generations of Buddhist culture have.

Tibetan Buddhism - in which I have been practising for many years - advocates starting not from where you're at, but from the goal. One of my favourite nuns summed it up as 'fake it 'til you make it'! The goal is to see all places as the Pure Land, all sounds as mantra and all beings as fully enlightened Buddhas. The practices are aimed at actualizing those mental states. Thus all beings are enlightened. That seeming pain-in-the-arse who constantly frustrates and angers you is a buddha manifesting in order to give you the opportunity to practice the virtue of patience. The rank blocked Asian toilet is as pure an environment as the most fabulous wat. That techno music pumping out of the disco is Om Mani Padme Hung.

When your mind is pure you will experience this; I suppose enlightened individuals do see reality this way constantly. If your mind is like mine, impure, you have to work at it - 'fake it' until slowly, bit by bit, experiencing reality in this way begins to sink in. Theravada, Zen and other schools of Buddhism use different vocabulary but I think in essence all are saying much the same thing. Namely, if you see everything as perfect just as it is in its own ever-changing nature, you are enlightened. However at the same time you recognise that other beings do not have this insight and thus experience suffering so you are moved by their plight to remove the barriers to their happiness.

One important proviso here: if anyone ever claims 'I am enlightened' then in a sense that's proof enough that they're not! It's making not just an egotistical but an objective claim that demonstrates ignorance of the Dharma. There is a complex dynamic between objective reality and subjective perception that is being glossed over here. This does however raise a very delicate tension in Buddhism however: we are deluded individuals and to move forward into wisdom we need a teacher or teachers who can inspire, motivate and guide us. We thus need to put our faith in such a person. Westerners often overlook the importance of faith in Buddhism. But at the same time we must not take leave of our critical senses - i.e. there is no place for 'blind faith'. But that's a topic for another time!

Oops Rainman!

I too was disgusted and embarrassed at that remark to such a nice girl. I was going to say something but desisted.

Now I see the post has been removed - but not your quotation of it!

What to do, what to do?

Hopefully she'll think it's a reference to golf

Never lived in Africa but it's not a continent I'd associate with political enlightenment.

I couldn't return to live in the West now, but I would say that if I did I'd never fume about political corruption (in a domestic context) again. Compared to the West the political situation in Thailand really sucks. Compared to most of Asia (and I suspect but cannot verify, much of Africa and South America) it's quite normal.

Having spent two years in Nepal where the extent of government corruption is the chief reason a civil war is being waged, and a few months in Bihar, N. India where the elected politicians are quite openly convicted gangsters and murderers and where my life was threatened when I refused to play the game, my attitude now is to have no expectations of politicians whatsoever other than the hope that they leave me alone to get on with the social and humanitarian work that they should be doing.

In the West, centuries of democracy have taught politicians, however vile they may be personally, that their profesion has some connection with serving their electorate. India, Nepal, Thailand and many other societies have no such history - rather their political system has always been one of patronage. Under western pressure many countries in Asia have adopted the veneer of democracy (only since 1990 in Nepal altho' it's collapsed again, a few fits and starts between military dictatorships in Thailand) but it is not realistic to expect the sense of social accountability to be learnt overnight, hence the politicians behave as they have always done - plundering their underlings to build up their personal wealth.

Not much comfort I know, but that's my analysis. I guess I'm just saying that if you did relocate somewhere outside the Developed World you might wonder why you bothered.

Advice? Get the h3ll outta there!!!

I suspect you 'sort of agreed' to a lot more than you realise - or are letting on, but whatever the full story I'd say you're in deep doo-doos. She probably has lost a lot of face but how are you gonna repair this situation? My take is - you can't so stay well out of it.

That's the first step ... and one you must take for the sake of your eternal spirit! (andyinkat will be able to explain this better than I can.)

Um, how did I get involved in this??

But since I got a citation I'll say that like Rod I couldn't just walk away with that knowledge on my conscience.

Are you sure - or is it locker room heresay?

If you really are in no doubt you could take up Stroll's suggestion - get an administrator or someone here who knows the appropriate organisation to PM you and you can forward the necessary information. Maybe your input will result in busting the whole ring. Now THAT would be a result you wouldn't mind carrying around - and it would do your karma no end of good (eh,Rod!)

Brilliant experiment - love it!!

By the same token I guess it's best to assume that the great majority of Nois and Leks who are so sweet and virginal are telling wee porkies themselves!

Thanks for adding some clarification there Sabaijai. I said in my first post that my reference to Sri Lanka and the Theosophists was off topic on this thread about Thai lay practice but it still seemed to lead to some confusion.

We are in agreement that the net influence of western influence is hugely negative. To my mind a lesson from the 20th century is that Consumerism has proved to be a far more insidious and deadly poison than anti-religious Communism ever managed to be. That's why the physical presnce of a monastic Sangha is so vital.

In the West there is so much watered-down Buddhism; super-stressful work patterns, endless accumulation of stuff and a ten minute meditation to 'balance' one's lifestyle. That's not the Buddha's Middle Way! Okay many monks may fall far short of the ideal but still their very presence, living a non-materialistic life and offering a visible example of an alternative way of life to the madness that envelops us all.

I'm sorry all - I'm feeling a bit sensitive just now. I still have a few more days stranded in England before I leave for LOS. The main news item is all about the binge drinking culture - how so many Brits of all ages waste so much money getting pissed and harming their own health and that of others. At the same time I'm following events in Bihar, India (where Bodh Gaya is - where Lord Buddha achieved enlightenment). I founded a little school a few kilometres downriver on Christmas Day - now it's all swept away and the pupils are amongst the eleven million people in the state who are homeless and my friend tells me many of the children are very sick. I'm feeling helpless and at the same time disgusted at 'modern life'. Samsara really sucks, but I made a Mahayana vow to keep coming back until all suffering has been eliminated. Guess I need to put down the keyboard and pull out a cushion and sit until I've straightened my head out!

Ken mate,

What you wastin' your time talking to us for???

Stay in that chat room and type sweet nuttins to your Ying - she's pinin' for ya real bad.

And treat her real nice or you'll have us to answer to!

Hey Bizz,

Just as I suspected - a truly inspiring tale! I'm very very happy for you - I'm sure most of us are here. Personally I'm not much younger than you and divorced, relocating to Thailand and I guess hoping I'll meet just such a lady (maybe one of the 59 you passed over ). I find the threads about Thai women on this forum very interesting but I've learnt to take a lot of the posts with a big pinch of salt; of course there are many thoroughly decent Thai ladies hoping to marry a decent respectful falang.

I hope you don't have problems getting your lady to Ireland as I've read how embassies can be very suspicious of relationships that begin through internet dating agencies - mind you Ireland is normally far more liberal than the UK in such matters. Of course if you do shift your business to LOS that issue won't arise.

Anyway thanks hugely for sharing - I love hearing tales like yours and I hope you'll somehow keep us 'posted' with developments. i'd be interested to learn how you get on with her family and things like that.

Hey Bizz,

Your story sounds inspiring. Care to fill in some details? Did you bring your wife back to Ireland with you or is she in LOS waiting for a visa? Or are you emigrating to Thailand to be with her? And in line with the thread title, how did you meet her? Care to share? Just (seriously) curious.

Lioneric,

I can provide a lot of information about Nepalese politics today, but this thread is about a pilgrimage in India (where the climbs are not high enough for altitude sickness) so it would not be the appropriate place.

Let me just point out that the king was killed three years ago, curfews are imposed in some places occasionally and no foreigners have ever been harmed in the conflict between Maoists and the Royal Nepal army and police. You get a very distorted impression of any country if your knowledge is based on one news bulletin every six months.