kaewmala

Bravo Kaewmala!

And shame on you americanexpatchiangmai whoever/wherever you are.

What he said, me too. Cheers

Hi, and thanks to chiangmaikelly for putting the link which brought the bloggery truth to my attention.

The discovery also led me to a plagiarism checker site: http://www.copyscape.com/ Quite a useful free service.

Sorry for my intrusion. I'll now leave you to your interesting discussion.

Have a great Sunday.

I think I'm in love with the author's brain.

My only criticism would be the chart she came up with- I thought that could be improved in certain areas, but I appreciate what she is trying to do. One possible better approach would be to use a real life example for each category, rather than attempting to generalise the same.

As for the article itself, a good read, although I was left with the impression that the author was holding back some of her own analysis. Almost trying to be too impartial- works well in certain areas of publishing but on a blog I hope for either solid reducible objectivity; providing the best most charitable argument for all sides considered- or a staunch and brave defence of the author's own take on the issue- I found no clear sign of either and alot of questions- which would be acceptable if I didn't have the feeling that this particular author could do so much more than that if she let herself. Hopefully, there is a part 2.

A refreshing & enjoyable blog, at any rate.

OxfordWill,

You're perceptive. Perhaps I was restrained in the article, but I think there's already too much emotion on the issue. I might have written a different article a couple of years ago but maybe I'm getting more mellow as I grow older and (I hope) become more mature. Thai-farang relationships have mystified me for years and I don't think I understand them very well even now.

Relationship in general is a difficult thing to understand and in a cross-cultural situation it can be even more vexing - as outsiders looking on we see all the time how some otherwise very intelligent people make stupid choices. There is something about treading on unfamiliar cultures - some people learn fast, many take time to figure things out, while quite a few don't seem to learn anything at all, leaving all the common sense they normally use at home, at home. It's like they revert to childhood with all innocence and credulity (which unfortunately in adults is rather more like stupidity).

Still, I have sympathy (or at least try to), but apparently in my not very successful effort to be sympathetic and understanding in my article I might have become less than brave. But I hope not insipid! I'd hate to lose all my spunk in old age.

At any rate, I would very much like to have more specific suggestions on my chart you mentioned. Comment on my blog, if it wouldn't be so much trouble?

Funny thing, it's just been hinted to me that I should make a chart for Thai women looking for foreign men too. Not quite sure I'm up to that.

Oh, and to Ian, thanks for your comment.

cheers,

Thanks to desi for posting the link to my blog. As many have already said, there's no one-size-fits-all formula. I personally see nothing wrong either if an older man (or woman) wants to pay a huge amount of money to a young woman (or man) for companionship. Rent-a-wife, rent-a-toyboy, whatever deal, so long as both parties are consensual adults and happy with it. If a man is willing and happy to be a meal ticket, why shouldn't he be? And the same applies to a woman.

Personally, I don't see why all this sponsorship business should be a big deal (though I just wrote a long article about it ). It seems simple enough to me. Just as Ian said, go in with the eyes open and use the brains. And I'll add, be a man about it too.

cheers,

I'd like to ask about this term, both its spelling, meaning and use.

เร่าใจ or เร้าใจ

Sorry for the formulaic layout, but its probably clearer if I enumerate my questions, which are several:

i. Is this the same expression with variant spellings, or two different expressions? Lexitron and C.G. Moore ('Heart Talk') has it as เร้าใจ, but I'm sure the way I heard it was pronunced เร่าใจ - maybe my ear for tones is out of tune...

ii. Both Moore and the person (native speaker) I heard use it explained with reference to how, say, the boys might feel when they see a sexy bikini-clad girl. However, I'm not sure from either explanation or the example whether this is synonymous with ตื่นเต้น or does it connote something different? If so, what?

iii. I'm not sure of the grammar of this phrase in use. Can anyone offer me a sample sentence or two? Lexitron has a couple, but they don't help much. Moore doesn't give any examples in use (a bit of a problem with his book throughout).

Thanks in advance!

The grammatically correct form would be เร้าใจ / ráw jai/; it's used both as an adjective and an adverb.

1) หนังเรื่องนี้เร้าใจมาก พล๊อตดี เดินเรื่องตื่นเต้นดีจริงๆ

This film is very dramatic (or gripping), good plot; the story line is so exciting.

2) โอ้โห อุแม่เจ้า เธอนุ่งน้อยห่มน้อยน่าเร้าใจ จนชายหนุ่มต้องน้ำลายไหล

Wow! Her being scantily dressed is riveting and has the young men salivate. (In this case the young men also feel เร้าใจ <both the lady's state of scanty dress, and the men's feeling are เร้าใจ = both adjective - i.e. the woman's dress is 'arousing', and the men's feeling 'aroused', described by the same word in Thai.)

3) มวยไทยคู่นี้ฝีมือสูสีมาก ชั้นเชิงดีทั้งคู่้ รับรุกหมัดกันได้ทันท่วงที ขามวยก็เชียร์เต็มที่ โห่เชียร์อย่างเร้าใจ

These Muay Thai boxers are really well matched, both having good skills and strategies. They are both swift on both the defense and offense. The enthusiasts are also rooting [for their favorite], shouting and cheering enthusiastically.

could u tranliterate those terms. unfortunately, best friend has had a nervous breakdown and havingto explain to anon why we arent going to her house for holidays (she was hosptialized for a short term, but still 'shaky' and medicated so rowdy holidays are not what she wants... couldnt find the correct terms (its actually the connotations of those terms that are the problem. she's not a nut case since she is lucid and aware of her mental state and is working on 'fixing' it. she sees it as an illness and not 'baa lao' (crazy). (she's an ex doctor btw). trying to explain to issaan country thai like my husband is really difficult. its difficult in the best of circumstances where a society hears these words daily and its almost 'cool' to have mini breakdowns. (who wouldnt in this country, we are all 'praa sat sia' in the extreme here. but some words connotate closed wards and straightjackets and others a sort of 'woman's breakdown due to too much pressure/nervewracking living situations'.

words might translate word for word but it is always the cultural undercurrents that give the word its 'umph'...

In the context you just gave, bina, I'd say to your husband: เขาเครียดมาก จนไม่สบาย /khao kriad maak jon mai sabai/ (i.e. she was highly stressed, so she became ill). Or you can say, เขาไม่สบายทางใจ /khao mai sa-bai thaang jai/ (not well mentally). You might even say เขาประสาทตึงเครียด /khao pra-saat tueng kriad/ (her nerves are tightly wound up).These are indirect way of explaining the situation.

For a more modern set of people who understand mental health, you can say, someone ป่วยทางจิต ต้องไปหาหมอ /puay thanng jit tong pai haa moh/ (mentally ill, need to see a doctor).

The slang I gave สติแตก /sa-ti taek/ can be negative, suggesting someone is out of control mentally or hysterical (which is pretty much having a nervous breakdown). You can use this term in reference to yourself or a close friend in a joking manner, but you would not use it seriously with someone who really has a nervous breakdown because it will be rude.

I'd avoid words like โรคประสาท /rok pra saat/ (neurosis) and โรคจิต /rok jit/ (mental illness) as they have negative connotation.

Forgot another word: จิตวิปลาส for a serious case of a nervous breakdown. This is a more traditional term.

Kaewmala, would you accept Lexitron dictionary's attempt of ความเจ็บป่วยทางจิต for nervous breakdown? Would people actually say or write this do you think?

(actually, Lexitron's full definition/description is ช่วงเวลาที่มีความเจ็บป่วยทางจิต)

No, that's more like having a mental health problem, and it's more of a written language. สติแตก is slang. I can imagine the phrases from Lexitron being uttered at a mental health conference or by some extremely sober, scholarly person but not an average Thai in a normal conversation. Other than สติแตก one might say บ้าไปแล้ว (lit. gone mad).

A nervous breakdown is not a disease, is it, though it might lead to one. Something snapped and then one's mental health may not be quite the same. Without proper care one goes really mentally mad and incompetent. That unfortunate state is called วิกลจริต and would be clasified under mental disease.

/

braa saat sia -- would that mean also along the lines of 'nervous breakdown' ? or just making someone 'nervous'. here, we hae a very specific word for being annoyed/anxious/nervous all at once; would like one in thai as well

Good question, bina. I needed to asked a couple of people on this as well. The consensus is that ประสาทเสีย /pra-saat sia/ is a more generic term, covering from being simply irritated, uneasy or somewhat neurotic to having really gone bonkers. Someone can be /pra-saat sia/ or made so by someone else (e.g. enough mind games would cause one's "neurosis to go bad" which is the literal translation of the expression).

The Thai equivalent for having a nervous breakdown is สติแตก / sà-tì tÈEk/, literally "broken mind."

Couldn't ปั่นหัว apply to this situation?

Yes, a very good one!

I think we use the word "Psycho" or "ไซโค"

อย่ามาไซโคฉันนะ Don't playing mind game with me.

or perhaps หลอน but I think this word convey the meaning of being obvious and nasty.

I find it interesting that more and more Thai slang are mangled English expressions, like this ไซโค /psy-cho/ - as in playing a mind game, e.g. อย่ามาโซโคผมนะ "Don't play a mind game with me" or เลิกไซโคผมซะทีเหอะ "Stop playing your mind game with me."

Another, very new, slang is นอย, as in "paranoid" or "annoy(ed)": ไม่ต้องมานอยเลย อย่ามานอยชั้นนะ . I seems like, that second person is perceived to be paranoid/crazy so s/he played a mind game (which makes no sense to me), or the person plays a mind game that annoys the speaker (which makes more sense - but not by much), but then I'm not into new mangled-Thingrish slang, so don't really understand this new slang.

I tried to find more authentic Thai expressions for this but couldn't really come up with an ideal equivalent.

There's an expression: ตุกติก /tuk tik/ or เล่นตุกติก /len tuk tik/ which is more like not playing straight, being cunning and up to some dirty tricks. อย่าเล่นตุกติก /yaa len tuk tik/ would be to tell a person not to do that to you. This expression has a less psychotic connotation, though.

Another one, เล่นบ้าๆ /len baa-baa/, may be closer. To say อย่ามาเล่นบ้าๆกับผมนะ /yaa maa len baa-baa kap phom na/ would be to say, don't play some crazy tricks on me.

I'm not sure about หลอน which (at least in its original meaning) has more to do with hallucination. Is this used in the original sense or a new slang sense?

One other term, ประสาทเสีย /pra-saat sia/, means to be nervous or to be driven out of your mind. So, you could say อย่ามาทำให้ผมประสาทเสียเลย "Don't make me go out of my mind" or "Don't make me nervous".

If the person doesn't understand the "Thingrish" slang 'psycho' (mostly used by urbanites, so likely that someone from upcountry may not get it), I'd choose to say อย่ามาเล่นบ้าๆ or use a hybrid อย่ามาเล่นเกมกับผม /yaa maa len game kap phom/ "Don't play a game with me".

Most of the Thai women I know marry Thai men they have known very very well for a very long time. No need to be curious as they already know all the details, whether they like it or not.

sbk, I suspect there's some difference in the level of intimacy between Thai-Thai couples and Thai-farang couples, due to absence of language and cultural barrier (though it's possible there's a class/education barrier).

Are you saying that Thai women would have better sex lives if they spoke English? Or perhaps that English speaking women have better sex lives because sexual communication is easier? If so should English teachers spend more time teaching amorous language courses?

That's quite a logical leapfrog, Mark. Thai women who would find English a less inhibiting amorous language will already be at least conversant in English. But I imagine you can teach non-English speaking Thai women amorous English words and their sex life might plausibly improve as a result. But the point is not: new language > better sex life per se, but new language > new perspective & unlock inhibition that comes with the old language.

And whether or not English teachers should start teaching amorous English is another matter all together. Call me square, but I thought language is for communicating in all spheres of life, not just for sex (or the male mind always gravitates to that direction).

the same reasoning that poeple here curse in other languages much more freely ... [snipped] ... so i could see switching to a different language for sex talk... its kind of less embarrassing.

sort of like calling my husband's penis 'nong chai'... im never sure exactly how to refer to it as a part of anatomy or during lovemaking... never mind my onw nether bits.. so ive taught him the hebrew girly-talk word which is actually from the arabic, when we say the word twice (like same same) it softens it and makes it 'nicer' for ladies to use rather then coarse street language. maybe i should teach anon yiddish... ?

Precisely, bina. It's less embarsassing (if you feel inhibited in your own language, which many --not all--Thai women do). I for example cannot curse in Thai (been brought up not to curse and one cannot underestimate early childhood conditioning and what it does to one's psychology), so when I am really mad now, I curse in English like &lt;deleted&gt;, the Thai equivalent of which I can never say.

In all languages we rely on euphemism when it comes to taboos, esp. sex. So, I think /nong chai/ is a very cute euphemism for it. But then there's 'dirty talk' and 'sexy cutesy talk'. I guess the choices of euphemism would depend on the taste and situation of the usage and the people involved, wouldn't it? And why not teach your hubby yiddish, if it would spice things up.

Anyhow, I wonder if we might be veering off and down the smutty lane -- not a big problem for me but I wonder about the polite audience.

I love to discuss more about language (and be able to type the Thai letters) but for that I guess the Thai language forum might be a more appropriate place.

Khun David,

Your translation is fine, but it can be more precise, I think.

บ้านเมืองตอนนี้ไม่ได้เป็นประชาธิปไตยอย่างแท้จริง หากแต่เป็นเผด็จการซ่อนรูปภายใต้การปกครองของในระบอบประชาธิปไตย

Some variations of translation:

"Our country is not genuinely democratic but a dictatorship hidden behind a democracy."

"Our country is not genuinely democratic but a dictatorship concealed underneath a democracy."

"Our country is not genuinely democratic but a dictatorship posing as a democracy."

cheers,

A thai girl was telling me how she tried (and failed) to pick up a foreign guy by asking him 'why is the sky pink'. Also something about a ฟ้าเหลือง which had me confused . . . what is a ฟ้าเหลือง, anyway? Another said only Thais can understand ฟ้าเหลือง, so I took it as a challenge

help?

I hope the girl was trying to pick the guy up with just the "pink sky" line, and not also with the "yellow sky" line.

I'm not sure if "why the sky is pink" has any other meaning, but generally a "pink sky" for Thai girls would simply mean being in a romantic mood or being in love (love causes you to see everything in a rosy color). Pretty innocuous.

Now, about the "yellow sky", I shudder at the thought of a girl using the ฟ้าเหลือง expression to pick up a man, Thai or foreign . The sky is never really yellow, I guess, but at twilight it probably comes as close as it gets to yellow. I am not entirely sure about this but I think this expression has a very strong sexual, a bit vulgar, connotation. It's an expression used when someone has had a sexual marathon, perhaps overnight, and only emerges from it the next evening, just to see the sky in turning yellow. Or, alternatively, at whatever time of day, a sexual marathon would have drained the person so sufficiently of all his/her energy that anything will look yellow.

This incuriousity is maybe not a phenomenon only between Thai women and Farang men.

I had an ex Thai gf that did not know the occupation of her Thai husband (ex when I met her) or where he worked and they had been together long enough to have 2 children, the oldest of which was 5 at the time.

I thought that very strange.

Well, that's indeed quite strange and perhaps extreme. There's also a difference between simply being incurious or indifferent and purposefully not wanting to know.

bina, thanks for your observation. True about the rural women being more down to earth sexually speaking. As for the observation on the language, there's also a flip side to that. Due to conservative upbringing (in Thailand's case educated middle class) a woman can feel limited by her own language which is closely connected to her socialization. For example, I've talked to my girlfriends about how it is easier to use English as the amorous language than Thai, because in choosing English the Thai woman has freed herself from the Thai cultural limitations and feel less shy to express herself romantically (even to a Thai boyfriend).

biffbastic, thanks for more sharing . The roles of Thai women can be various. There are regional differences and other complexities in how women play a role in the family (many rural women in the North and Northeast often play an important role in the family, and in most cases women's status in their family tend to come from their economic power and resources wherever they are). We had/have a tradition in the North where daughters inherit family property, so when you own the house you have a lot of say in what's going on. But that has also changed somewhat.

Back again to the original point, curiosity or lack thereof depends on many things. Culture, education, class, and importantly individual personality, all come into play. We are all products of our culture to varying degrees. And when it comes to the matter of women and men, the gender roles and values rooted in the culture are often influential with most, though not all women -- since there are always those who don't conform.

To what extent, a Thai woman or man, or anybody, is curious or not in a romantic relationship or marriage, will depend on all those things, plus the level of intimacy between the couple and what she or he values in the relationship. Many people are practical and content with what's immediately relevant to their lives - the here and how. Others are more introspective and inquisitive about things below the surface.

To say that all or even most Thai women are incurious in their lovers or the love process would be an exaggeration because although many foreigners have married disproportionately to a group of Thai women who tend to behave a certain way due to their social and cultural backgrounds, it doesn't mean that one should generalize the pattern of behavior to apply to all Thai women. I am not saying this to put down poorer and less educated Thai women but to point out the importance of individual personalities even within the same group of women when trying to understand people, even those from a different culture. Any effort to understanding the cultural values and norms that might explain someone's behavior is to me always a wise thing to do. However, it'll be a mistake to confuse the culture with the individual.

Rural Thai women don't talk about sex with a foreign woman, they ask me loads of other questions about farangs, but not that particular one. So, no I dont' think that makes them incurious. Just sensible

That’s what I thought. ...

I was a little surprised that she answered so quickly and so adamantly that the ladies she knew in Bangkok had no interest in a Falang. I would have not guessed that. I would have thought the opposite.

I believe rural women are a lot more open about sex (to each other) than city (middle class) women. They can be quite rowdy together. More educated, urban middle class Thai women are more conservative (due to more conservative upbringing & conservative education), though I believe at least some do talk about it among close friends.

Interesting what she said about they (her rural girlfriends) think of a 'farang' not as a person, or not as a normal person -- kinda confirms my "tribal" theory. But what exactly is the "khun" and "po kut tee" that she was talking about? I can't conceive of the words in Thai.

Interesting, as I was having an argument with my Thai wife last night (about money, as I am taking a lower paid contract and I stupidly said WE would have to be more careful with money, which she immediately interpreted as 'YOU spend too much money')

She said that she never asked me about my life - house, car, salary, ex-gf, ex-wives etc because she did not want to make me feel uncomfortable with her. She never asks how much I make and says it is up to me how much I give her to spend. Of course she doesn't want to know because she does not want to have any responsibility for what she does. She believed for a long time that I had a wife back in the UK, but never asked me directly (I don't and was never married). I think she was/is afraid to know too much if there is something that will affect her.

Not knowing gives her freedom to do what she wants to do. She can buy anything she wants, because it is up to me to refuse to pay and say we don't have enough money for it; she can feel morally ok, because she didn't know that I had a wife and kids in another country (I don't); she can feel more secure in herself because she didn't know that all my ex-gfs were blonde, graduates with high paying jobs (only some were!

I don't know if it is the same for other Thai women, but for my wife I think she doesn't ask about my past because she thinks she doesn't 'measure up', therefore knowing will just make her feel inadequate and perhaps she thinks it will make me compare past and current situation. Of course I try and reassure her, but she is smart and can see the huge differences between her background as a poor farmers daughter with no education and her perceived notion of my background as an incredibly wealthy upper class academic (actually just middle-class, middle of the road degree, not at all wealthy)

If you remove her being Thai part, would she still have acted the same way? Insecurity is a normal infliction in a relationship, cross-cultural or otherwise.

Here, in your case there could be a social class and education barrier (or not) that has influenced in the way your wife has dealt with the relationship. It is true that many Thai women still expect the husband to be the provider of the family, especially those who don't have gainful employment. But I'd expect that in the case where the income is reduced the wife would be flexible about spending it. To be inflexible about the amount of stipend regardless of how much income the husband is making would suggest that this is a personality issue, rather than a cultural issue.

Seri Thai, I see a lot of (originally) "non hi-so" women in the Emporium! But I see your point. Good on you that you're enjoying nature in the boonies with the wife and kids.

I think its difficult for western women to answer these questions for the simple reason that female - female relationships are faaar different things than male female. As my dad said, you never know what goes on in another man's head or another man's bed.

I know what women say to me. This does not mean I know what goes in the intimacy of their relationships.

True as it concerns behavior of Thai women, though in this case the fatherly advice might be revised to "you never what goes on in another (Thai) woman's head or another (Thai) woman's bed."

Regarding mark45y's comments on the world turning tribal but "Thailand has never left", that's an interesting point. It is very true, esp. in politics in the world has turn once again more tribal. But at the same time, we also have an ever larger number of people who transcend tribes--the global citizens, and these include foreigners living in Thailand and more Thai people as well. These cosmopolitan people can live anywhere in any culture (or at least try to) and feel comfortable in a multi-cultural environment.

The label 'tribal' may fit well most Thais, esp. those with little exposure to the outside world, or those who simply have a very nationalistic, provincial attitude. They see things through a tribal lens. A good test would be, in a cross-cultural relationship, say, does a Thai wife, see her farang husband first as a farang who is her husband, or as a man who is her husband who happens to be a farang? The same tribal test applies to the husband. Does a farang husband first see his wife as a Thai (woman), or a woman/wife who happens to be Thai?

So, apart from the Thai tribe(s), we may also have at least one foreign tribe penetrating our tribal land, the Isaan hinterland, for example.

IMO, in a cross-cultural relationship in which the couple are more cosmopolitan or have a less tribal attitude, they tend to see each other as a human being first, or partner in a relationship first, before a representation of another culture. I could be wrong but I feel they have potentially fewer problems culturally. Of course, they still face normal couple problems like everyone else, but cultural assumptions and misunderstanding can get in the way of real intimacy.

But then again, this could just be me, as I prefer a more equal, equitable kind of relationship. Some Thai-farang couples may operate on another kind of arrangement and do just fine, as long as each gets what s/he wants.

So we return to the original point - whether some Thai women are incurious (lovers, partners). Perhaps some people just don't "think too much" and simply live their lives. Some Thai women may not be extremely curious to know too much about their husbands/BFs, for various reasons already discussed. But on the flip side, there are more than a few foreign husbands/BFs of Thai women who are no less tribal than their Thai wives/GFs (if what they say on the various boards is any indication). When a farang husband/BF says "My Thai wife does this and that" etc., or "Thai women" think cleaning dishes is a woman's job, it makes me wonder what really goes on in his head.

Sorry if I've been a party pooper in this thread. To repent, here's something that I promise will not kill joy.

Crash landing

(kin) hÊEw (slang, v.) (กิน)แห้ว (แสลง, ก.)

sà-dÈEw hÊEw (slang, v.) สะแด่วแห้ว (แสลง, ก.)

chûat (slang, v.) ชวด (แสลง, ก.)

jìip mâi tìt (informal, v.) จีบไม่ติด (ปาก, ก.)

phìt wǎng (v.) ผิดหวัง (ก.)

Tom’s crushing failure to win Apple’s heart is pitiful.

Sympathetic onlookers comment that Tom has to kin hÊEw,

“eat a water chestnut.” I don’t know exactly why, but to eat

a water chestnut means “to swallow disappointment.” The

slang term is sometimes shortened to just hÊEw.

Tom goes home defeated, lamenting the ill fate that

leaves him to eat one hÊEw after another. He fails, only

to return to his nest “empty-handed” (chûat) again. A few

kind-hearted Thai friends want to teach him another Thai

lesson. They say, “Tom, you know that you were just dissed

by Apple and we call that sà-dÈEw hÊEw.” They tell him

that it’s the same thing as “eating a water chasenut” but

with a little more zing. Yeah, more zing alright, Tom grinds

his teeth quietly.

Tom is wondering what he’s doing wrong. News spreads

that Tom jìip Apple mâi tìt; that is to say, Tom’s “flirtation

doesn’t stick” (jìip mâi tìt) with Apple. His flirtation rolls off

her like water rolling off the back of a Teflon duck. Tom

feels understandably “disappointed” (phìt wǎng).

(from sextalk, p. 113).

...

Perhaps หน้าลาว(มาก), โคตรลาว, หน้าเสี่ยว

However, I would not use these terms as they are degrading to the wonderful Lao -- and Isaan -- people. (The reference is not only limited to Laotians.) And Thai superiority complex hardly needs more encouragement. ...

Slightly off topic (sorry) but would these terms vary depending on where in Thailand you were? When I stayed in Chiang Saen many of the family have Lao roots so I would imagine saying 'don't be so Lao' might not be said so much? When we went to Laos (only for a couple of hours admittedly) it was noticeable that the Thai visitors were seen as more affluent visitors, possibly because the new (huge) Chinese casino/hotel complex was ferrying people over to a small market for free (on the condition that you went to the casino as well!)

Is it similar to in the UK when 'being Irish' used to have similar connotations?

As you would imagine Laotians or people with cultural affinity to them would not be using the epithets that denigrate themselves or their own. It is mostly people in Bangkok and large urban centers who are far enough removed from rural culture or young and foolish fashionista-wannabes (and that amount to lots of people) who tend to use such language.

Obviously Thais, even the relatively poor ones, are "affluent" when compared to Laotians. What many(most?) Thais seem oblivious to is that the Laotians do not exactly hold us in high regard despite our "wealth" and "higher development." They may not wear fashionable clothes, drive fancy cars or have fake noses like us Thais, but they are not stupid, or blind. They know very well how Thais make fun of them. They watch Thai TV and can see all the epithets in the TV soaps and inane shows featuring "Lao" buffoons.

There was a historical usage of the term "Lao", in the old days when there wasn't yet a unified Siam and later Thailand as we know it today (barely a century ago) Bangkok people referred to anyone from "up north" which included not only Isaan but also Lanna, as "Lao" -- and that connoted inferiority and backwardness.

Time changes things, but something is hard to change.

Kaewmala, I would love to know more about Sunthorn Phu.

Hi, desi, definitely anyone interested in Thai language and culture should check out Sunthorn Phu. Wikipedia has a brief and incomplete section on him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunthorn_Phu. The bio on the Thai wikipedia is far better, here: http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/สุ...;ู่.

He was a master poet active in the first half of the 19th century, whose works are now recognized by UNESCO. He was quite a character -- very much a Thai macho male, though an artistic one. An artist, an alcoholic, a ladies' man who had issues with authorities, he lived through 4 reigns, in and out of favor of the royal court and went in and out of jail, because of his sharp tongue (or pen rather) and sometimes his artistic integrity. A daredevil romantic he surely was.

I started reading (though not understanding much) at the age of 5 or 6, his most popular work พระอภัยมณี /Phra Aphai Manee/ which has a flute playing prince charming who consorted with several species of females, from sea ogress to mermaid to a foreign princess. He was also among the main royally appointed composers of ขุนช้างขุนแผน /Khun Chang Khun Phaen/, the most famous (central Thai) folk epic about a love triangle that spanned across a couple of generations -- the epic tales of Thai Casanova (Khun Phaen). A must read, as it really gives you a very good insight into the (central, hegemonic) Thai culture and way of thinking that remains the prevalent today, in particular the male-female perspective. And his language is just a pleasure to read.

There is one particular verse from Phra Apai Manee that is really beautiful. I'll fish it out and share it with you and others when I get a chance.

cheers,

Thanks anchan42 for the Thai wiki link. I've never been really into poetry but will give translation a try.

๏เจ็ดวันเว้นดีดซ้อม ..........ดนตรี

Pause practice for seven days ........ of music

อักขระห้าวันหนี .................เนิ่นช้า

Leave learning for five days makes it ......... sluggish surely

สามวันจากนารี ..................เป็นอื่น

Desert a woman just three days, the ............ heart changes

วันหนึ่งเว้นล้างหน้า ............อับเศร้าศรีหมอง

Miss face washing just one day .......... one looks sadly dull.

The moral of this poem is persistence and perseverance, that is, whatever you do, you keep at it, otherwise it goes sideways.

cheers,

สามวันจากนารีเป็นอื่น (I'm looking for the actual source of this and haven't found it yet.)

จากโคลงโลกนิติ

๏เจ็ดวันเว้นดีดซ้อม ..........ดนตรี

อักขระห้าวันหนี .................เนิ่นช้า

สามวันจากนารี ..................เป็นอื่น

วันหนึ่งเว้นล้างหน้า ............อับเศร้าศรีหมอง

ขอบคุณมากค่ะ คุณยุทธ? Very speedy.

So I've found some discussions about this particular saying: สามวันจากนารี ..................เป็นอื่น.

And I'm still not clear who's the one that changes in the original poem. From the pattern of word breaks, I'd think it's the man who's gone and changed after three days, not the woman. But then why it has been used to mean the woman who's unfaithful. Or is that obvious?

Please enlighten.

...

The nature of the question, comparing Thai lovers to western lovers requires a stereotype answer. When noting the differences between Thai ness and Farang ness you are stereotyping. I wouldn’t worry to much about it. One has to make certain assumptions to understand any group of people.

I think you are not examining rural as opposed to metropolitan closely enough. Only a generation ago there was very little industrial activity in Thailand. The great majority of the society was rural. This was the case in America four generations ago.

...

Enjoy the family values and rural society while you can. It will be gone soon enough.

True, we can't always avoid stereotypes -- human brains process in stereotypical, esp. when assessing people from other cultures. However, when I said "try to stay away from stereotyping" I meant stereotyping with prejudice: all farmers' daughters are uneducated and stupid or all hi-so women are spoiled, for example. That is counterproductive and doesn't get us anywhere.

As for examining rural vs. urban, I'm well aware of that (as anyone who has read my book could have have missed). But here I'm more eager to hear others' points of view.

And about the notion of modesty you brought up in your latest post, yes, indeed Thai people, including women, were topless not long ago. The idea of modesty jealously guarded by Thais in the past 60-70 years or so is more influenced by the western notion of modesty (through the command of Field Marshall Plaek Phibulsongkram - the graphic you posted was one of an official notice). The program to instill in Thai people the new notion of propriety and "Culture" initiated by... as we Thai call him, has been so wildly successful that, now most Thai people (especially those among the upper class and middle class, who have had more education, hence more official indoctrination) believe so strongly that the recently constructed and officially imposed cultural code of social propriety (and the Victorian prudishness that came with it) is authentically Thai.

Still, to use bare breasts as a parameter of a society's modesty, though drastic, can be a bit simplistic and misleading. Even when (central) Thai women were wearing only /phaa-thaeb/, a kind of loose band made from a long piece of cloth tied around their chest, the women had to live by some rules of modesty too. It's just that the notion of what's "modest" changes with time and place.

Now you see many Thai girls & women wearing revealing clothing that would have been scandalous twenty or fifteen years ago. But does that change the core values held by Thai women, who, I suspect, believe that a Thai woman must be a good wife and a good mother, and must be pure. Does that change the way they really think about their behavior, including sexual behavior, in their romantic relationship? Does their more revealing translate to a more sexually liberal view? Thing is, I don't know.

My second question in this thread was whether (some or many) Thai women have a tendency to lose interest when entering middle age (as some farang guy whose comment I read somewhere else some time ago suggested --and an implication was that this tendency was not expected from western women). I'm still waiting for answers, especially from Thai and expat women here.

คุณแก้วมาลาครับ

Please help me understand the meaning of your first sentence:

อันอ้อยตาลหวานลิ้นแล้วสิ้นซาก แต่ลมปากหวานหูไม่รู้หาย

Is its metaphoric meaning:

"The sweetness of sugar is fleeting but your sweet words last forever."

Or, is the implication that "Your words are sweeter than sugar [to me]" ?

Thanks for your help.

It's metaphorical. And I think your translation is correct and very nice.

The literal meaning of first line is: "The sweet taste of sugar melts away, but the words stay sweet to the ear forever." That is sweetness of the sugar is ephemeral, while the sweetness of words is lasting.

Staying on topic... "INCURIOUS" - Definition... Adjective...

1. Lacking interest or curiosity; uninterested.
   
2. apathetic or indifferent.
   

Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incurious"

Incurious lovers would then mean that Thai woman lack interest in the whole love process.

From personal experience I don't believe that they are lacking interest or curiosity. However, there ARE some real differences beween Thai women and western women when it comes to the whole love process... and I don't mean just sex. I believe that Thai women have been taught from a very early age to be conservative. You even find that with the most experienced bar girls who have had hundreds of lovers. You see that when a Thai woman comes to bed with the express purpose of making love. They wear a towel from the shower and don't take it off until they are under the covers. By and large, western women have no problem taking off their clothes and walking around naked in front of boyfriends or husbands. Go to any beach area where there are a lot of tourists. You will NEVER see a Thai gal walking around topless, even though a beach might be littered with naked Europeans. You seldom see Thai women wearing bikinis... even though they have great bodies.

Yes, there are differences, but the edges are getting blurry as more farangs and Thais intermingle on a semi-permanent basis.

Ian, glad you brought that up. I've been pondering a question for a while now. See, I've across some comments from western men (on some website or other) that it is "common" for Thai wives to lose interest in sex once they hit middle age. I wonder if there's any truth to that. Or if there is, is it really unique to Thai women. Is it a cultural thing, or a gender thing, or neither? Perhaps age has something to do with sex drive...

As for your example of a difference between western and Thai women. It's true that no right-thinking Thai woman (living in Thailand) would go au naturel in public. She'll be on the front page of the newspapers. The expectation of modesty (esp. from women, but also of men) is still much higher in Thailand. However, that's more cultural than personal (which, of course, is not unrelated to the cultural). Even a shy woman (of any nationality) can be sexually eager and curious (in her own way), I'd think.

I'm suspecting that general social attitude toward sex and the social expectation of male/female sexual behaviors play a role. From literature (classical or modern), or even the น้ำเน่า TV soaps, you can see quite clearly that Thai women (except that 'bad' นางร้าย, anti-heroines) are supposed to be the passive partner in a proper love affair. A นางเอก heroine is supposed to be pure and pristine, and sexually innocent (little different from the Victorian values). Now, whether that's really the case is neither here nor there. An average Thai woman has to play the game, to at least "appear" so -- like the nang-ek. Or she'll appear too "slutty."

So, yes, an average Thai female lover might still wear a towel to bed where her lover awaits, but does that translate to her being sexually incurious? Or her potential to lose interest when hitting middle age?

The whole "love process" to be would include activities and interaction between couple in a romantic relationship, and has a lot to do with the intensity and style of intimacy and intimacy, as I mentioned in a previous post, has its cultural dimension.

The original question about the level of curiosity among Thai women was more on the intellectual/spiritual curiosity, but now we've moved a bit to the sexual side of it (to fit the thread title).