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mazeltov
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Posts posted by mazeltov
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I don't remember seeing anywhere that the government said that "the army did not kill any protesters". It would be a ridiculous claim to make. In my opinion, I am sure that the army killed most of the protesters that died.
THE POINT: There were videos of armed protesters. The BBC even showed one during their reporting of May 19. Are you denying that some of the protesters were armed?
edit: I've done a search trying to find a government denial that the army killed any protesters (except Sae Daeng). Can you please point me to one?
BBC news? Is that suddenly a reliable source you would trust?
THE POINT: Have you any sources to back up your claim that the killed were armed and dangerous criminals. Can you back up your claim? Can you? you cannot!
You know the difference between to spot some armed person somewhere and nearly 90 dead people.
because there are some videos that shows assumed red shirts with guns, the security forces/soldiers don't have the right to shot at anybody near a barricade. and that is also something what the government never said that they did. the nearly 90 dead people left a lot of question open, the governtments theory of choice is to declare them to victims of the terrorists. smart move. otherwise they would have to come forward with really hard evidence why the soldiers killed certain persons. as i said there are rules and laws of the use of firearms in law enforcement and the government said that say followed exactly that international rules.
anyway, i thought it is widely known that the governments claims and explains that most of the civilians where killed by terrorists.
and so i argued that the dead civilians were indeed unarmed innocents.
totally unknown to me are any detailed reports and proofs for the claims the killed civilians were armed.
and please keep in mind that the question if the red shirts or their black shirts were armed or not is a different issue and not point of the argument here. this is about the dead civilians, were they armed or unarmed and how they died.
okay, for a recap i bring a few quotes from declaration and explanation by government and CRES officials.
"Who Really Killed the Red Shirts ?"
The True Facts Regarding the 10 April 2010 Incident
On Saturday, 10 April 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES), resolved to reclaim areas occupied by red shirt demonstrators. The incident resulted in violent clashes between the military and armed demonstrators ending with 842 injuries and 24 fatalities on both sides. Video footage gathered from numerous news agencies (domestic and international) covering the incident clearly shows thata group of armed terrorist militia from within the Red Shirt protesters instigated and provoked violence against the unarmed military. This group was heavily armed with high powered rifles and firearms, along with powerful explosives intent on targeting and firing on both the military and the demonstrators. The injuries and fatalities that resulted from the groups whose intention and actions can only be described as being premeditated terrorism with no regard for human life,public, or private property.Press Briefing by Royal Thai Army Deputy Staff Command and Director General of the Department of Special Investigation (15/5/10):
At the latest count, there are 16 deaths and around 140 injured. He noted that thesedeaths and injuries to civilians can occur from the following reasons.First, it is possiblethat Red Shirt guards could assault each otherdue to internal conflicts. Secondly, due to the assault weapons in possession of the Red Shirt guards, who are known to have M79 grenade launders, assault rifles, hand grenades, and giant firecrackers. Third, thegeneral public affected by the protests may have taken matters into their own hands and assaulted the Red Shirt demonstrators; there are eyewitness reports confirming this possibility. Fourth and finally, the firing of bullets are done under strict rules and instructions, to prevent further loss of life, or to target those who are clearly armed with weapons.Soldiers are instructed to fire at knee level in order to minimize injuries and deaths.Col Sansern also summarized the events of the past days, including an incident wherea local resident fired a weapon at the demonstratorsbecause he was angry that the tires being burnt would make the buildings in the area catch fire.Lt Gen Daopong concluded the briefing session by expressing the hope that the public now has a better understanding of what the Army is doing, and what the armed group inside the Red Shirt camp is doing. He stressed thatall soldiers have no intention of killing or harming anyone,but are only performing their duty, while always aware that the people involved are their fellow countrymen. The call by the Red Shirt leaders for the Army "to stop killing the people" is therefore a deliberate attempt to mislead the public that the Army views the people as its enemy.Press Briefing by CRES Spokesperson (2030 hrs 16/5/10):"
CRES wishes to state that the terrorists who are inside the demonstrations in Rajprasong area are creating incidents in order to confuse and mislead the public.This has been picked up by the media including the internet.The CRES needs to clarify and explain some of these incidents.First of all,the terrorists are causing incidents to create suspicion and misunderstand, by attacking the soldiers, the police, the public, and the press. All are targeted by the terrorists.I have to urge the public to stay away from Rajprasong, because it is very dangerous. If you need to enter this area because you live or work there, please tell the authorities so they can provide security to you.Our friends in the media also have to be careful. You should stay behind security lines. We can ensure your safety. ...The second one is a video clip. This clearly shows a red shirt protester firing an M79, which can cause death and injury to the public or security personnel. In this one instance, the camera captured an M79 being fired. Yesterday M79 grenades were fired at police quarters causing several injuries, including children.It is evident that the security forces have to take great precaution in dangerous areas.The third one is also a video clip. This shows a terrorist attempting to light the fuel tank of a truck. He’s then shot in the foot, and then runs away to his friends for help.This is also evidence that the security forces try to control their fire and shoot below the knee,and that they try to avoid causing serious injury to any unarmed protester."CRES Press conference 17 May 2010 at 2030 hrs
CRES expresses its concerns onthe terrorists infiltrating inside the protesting area, trying to endanger lives of innocent protesters, innocent people, EMS teams and the press.Reliable information received by CRES confirmed that today, there were 5-10 gunmen hiding inside the Chiva-Thai building , near Century Park Hotel, between floors 24-27.Thoseunidentified snipers will put both the military and innocent people’s lives in harm’s way, such as in the case of the singer, Kampan Basu, who was injured, possibly shot from the Chiva-Thai building.Therefore, the CRES would like the public to avoid entering or passing through the area for their own safely, especially during the night time.Apart from that, protesters were also attempting to destroy or damage public buildings and properties. We have also seen robberies of private businesses located in the Red Zone, which is the Ratchaprasong Intersection and its nearby roads.It is indeed difficult for the terrorists to deny responsibility in these incidents, which occurred in their protesting areas, since none of the state security personnel is allowed in the area....Slide 2.This is a picture of agunman dressed in black with an M16 in his hand. This is to prove thatthere is a group of gunmen using lethal weapons with the aim of harming innocent people, EMS teams, the press and security officers.Slide 3.The photo, taken 2-3 days ago, shows a military officer accompanied with a pistol who was trying to take back a military truck previously seized by the protesters.While being surrounded by protesters, he carried a gun, but he decided not to use it against the people and let himself be beaten and injured by the protesters. This is to show that all military personnel always strictly follow the rules of engagement as instructed by CRES....Some people are using the words“the military is killing the people”, to mislead the public. This is definitely not true. The military are tasked only to cordon off the protest area and set up blockades, but not to do harm the people.Deputy Staff Command press briefing 18 May 2010 at 2045 hrs
The security forces stationed around the protesting area have been , on daily basis, putting their lives in harm’s way. There are terrorists who are trying to do harm to those officers by using various types of weapons or dangerous materials against them, especially in areas like Bon Kai, Pratunam and Din Daeng which are the areas that attacks were mainly concentrated.Since 13 May, there were a total of 58 of M79 grenades which were launched onto security forces.The violent incidents occurred during the past 2-3 days around Ratchaprasong area, such as burning of rubber tires, arson, looting on government’s properties and private businesses , have proved the intention of UDD’s leaders to use armed terrorists against the protesters.Relief operations have been conducted, with food delivered to the local residents affected by the situation in various areas. Since the presence of military officers in the relief zone was deemed dangerous, and might complicate the situation at any time, authorities concerned will instead try using negotiation as a way to facilitate the relief operation and to deliver all basic necessities to the people in affected areas.Learning from the tragic incident on April 10, right now all security forces will always keep distance from the protesters, of at least 200 – 300 meters, which is considered a safe distance from the reach of M79 grenade launchers and some other weapons. Therefore, the security forces’ death toll and injuries are minimal.The civilians’ casualties and injuries during the past few days could have been caused by unidentified gunmen hiding behind self-made bunkers and on high buildings.There were also eyewitnesses, both protesters and press, on such incidents. Besides, among those who lost their lives or were injured, they should not always be seen as innocent victims, sincesome of them could also be terrorists who get shot by security forces---just that no weapons were found making them look like ordinary civilians....^note: here is a semi-confession that the security forces used deadly force, but they also admit that there is a lack of the smoking gun. the dead were unarmed.
Press Briefing for Diplomatic Corps 22 May
Deputy Prime Minister Suthep:Dear fellow Thai people, members of the diplomatic corps and the media. I would like to inform you that, during the Red Shirt protest, there were incidents that involvedterrorists using weapons to attack officials, rescue units, members of the press and innocent people. These incidents, which had led to many casualties and injuries,had been closely reported by international media. During this period, Red Shirt leaders had tried to launch a propaganda campaign to mislead that there were no terrorists and heavy weapons. However, the truth revealed itself in the end.PM TV program 23 May 2010:
Some 46 people lost their lives during this period. These losses, which included journalists and innocent people, the Prime Minister stressed,were unrelated to the protest area at Ratchaprasong but resulted from clashes with those who attacked the officers’ check points. The officers had to respond to protect the check points and defend themselves in accordance with the clearly stipulated rules of engagement. During that period, more than 100 M 79 grenades were fired at the check points but losses among the officers were minimised as they had dug away from the M 79 firing range.This notwithstanding,the armed groups continued to attack innocent people and other target groups such as foreign journalists, and emergency medical and health volunteers, to inflict losses as a way to pressure the Government.As images revealed, they also put a child on their bunkers made of tires as if to tell the officers that had any clashes occurred, the casualties would include children.MFA responds to media enquiries about Amsterdam & Peroff’s statement June 4, 2010
Regarding operations by security forces, the Royal Thai Government had given strict orders that all operations regarding the protests by the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) be undertaken in accordance with the seven-step rules of engagement in line with the principle of proportionality and international standards, including the United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials.They were also subject to strict instruction on the use of live ammunition, namely: as warning shots, in self-defence and to prevent harm on the lives of members of the public.Based on evidence and video footage taken by the media during the clashes between the protesters and the security forces, it is clear that there werearmed elements infiltratingamong the demonstrators. These individuals – not bound by similar rules –had used lethal weapons, including automatic assault rifles and grenade launchers, with indiscriminate effect and utter disregard for human lives, leading to loss of lives and injuries among demonstrators, bystanders and security officers.Okay that is what the government claims.
I hope the quotes are enough for a recap and memory refresh. it isn't the complete time line and don't include everything. just a few sound bites for the memory and get the idea what i am talking about.
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As I said in an earlier post that started off this discussion, the army were shooting at people behind fuel soaked tyre barricades, with sling shots, firecrackers (to sound like guns) and often guns.
There was a video showing a red shirt with a gun going around a corner firing off a few shots and then running back behind the protection of the buildings. Basically, they were doing hit and run type raids, and then the unarmed red shirts were getting hit with the consequences.
That doesn't make the unarmed red shirts innocent, as they were part of an armed gang. There were 80+ red shirts killed but only pictures of a dozen or so. There were also 1400+ injured. Probably some of these were armed. Ofcourse they aren't going to take their guns to the hospital, are they?
There WERE red shirts with guns shooting at the army. Just because there were no pictures of dead red shirts with guns doesn't make them innocent by-standers.
Killed for being near a firecracker?
You are repeating your silly fantasies. can you provide a link to a source to back up your claims or not? That is the question here. i guess you can't. i don't need photos or video, newspaper articles (can you read?) would be enough. i would like to know where you get your theory from.
The govt or CRES declaring that the security forces/soldiers didn't shot and killed these people. the govt said it were the terrorist who killed these people. believe me, i read all the reports.
Are you now saying that 'the terrorist', did actually a good job, acted on behalf of the good people, restoring the peace and taking out the firecracker armed criminals behind the barricades?
There are rules and laws for the use of firearms in law enforcement. a situation like you describe it would be a clear violation of these rules.
So please if you have evidence for it, please come forward and post it. or stop posting lies.
You continue to ignore the point and twist words to suit your fantasy.
There WERE armed red shirts. They were shooting at the army. The army were shooting back. The protesters (with sling shots and firecrackers) that were with the armed red shirts were being shot. They were not innocent by-standers.
The government haven't said that these people were not killed by the army. The government have said that there were armed "terrorists" amongst the protesters.
I didn't say anything about the terrorists doing a good job. That's just another example of you twisting words to suit your fantasy.
If the soldiers/govt forces didn't kill the people (as the govt says) but the terrorists (that is what the govt says) why should these terrorists kill exactly these people you argue deserved to be shot or have have at least to blame themselves.
According to your theory the 'kills' where justified, but FYI. the killers were the 'terrorists'.
THE POINT:
You know it or you just assume it? How you come to that conclusion?
can you provide a link to a source to back up your claims or not? If you have any sources were the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians, or that newspaper articles saying exactly this, please come forward with it? i don't need photos or video, newspaper articles (can you read?) would be enough. i would like to know where you get your theory from.
If not you cannot back up your claims, please stop posting lies.
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1 We are also on a English speaking forum You make wild assumptions in English and back them up with Thai literature
2You people is red shirts
3Yes Abhisit said that he is a polatition no surprise there. He does not want to alienate more people than he has to. Besides I never did like him but I will admit he is the best Thailand has.
4 I have no proof that the killed civilians were armed. I have no proof that the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians . You made the claims that they were unarmed can you post your proof in English. I for one would like to see it. That being said I believe that they were not all unarmed. Just stupid hanging around with people who are in a gun fight is not the smartest thing to do.
That is why I never made those claims. Now who is lying
5 No proof that they were paid money but when my friend who lives in a village says trucks come through in the morning with loud speakers proclaiming they need 500 people for ten days to make 10,000 baht I tend to believe him. Maybe if I had your friends I would disbelieve him but my friends have no axe to grind. Besides I had heard that before no proof of it though but I did hear they had a video of them lining up to collect money.
1. I posted the names of 3 brave Thai soldiers with their full rank in Thai. They are Thai, they have Thai names, they were killed. please show respect and not mock about it.
Posting their names in Thai gives the interested reader also the possibility to use the search engine and find out more about them. There isn't much written about them in the english press. they are nameless there.
That one of them got killed by other soldier at a security check point is not a wild assumption. If you could read Thai news you would know it.
2. I am just reiterate the government version of the incidents. you calling me a red shirt for it. funny.
3. What? and What and huh? 55555
4. yup, no prove. as i said. people posting unfounded fantasies.
5. you are getting crazy about a link to a thai newspaper article but the only thing you can offer is some rumour, hearsay and what you claim to had happen somewhere in the past in an unnamed village with no given date and time? its BS, my friend.
"They were paid 5,000 baht a day to cause truble." = "loud speakers proclaiming they need 500 people for ten days to make 10,000 baht" ???? did you use a calculator on this?
sorry, i don't understand what you are up to. If english is not your first language. you can send me a PM in Russian.
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Who from the list of the killed people fired a handgun and who from the list of the killed people launched grenades? do you have their names?
can you point out the other crimes those from the list of the dead people had committed?
details please. thank you.
As I said in an earlier post that started off this discussion, the army were shooting at people behind fuel soaked tyre barricades, with sling shots, firecrackers (to sound like guns) and often guns.
There was a video showing a red shirt with a gun going around a corner firing off a few shots and then running back behind the protection of the buildings. Basically, they were doing hit and run type raids, and then the unarmed red shirts were getting hit with the consequences.
That doesn't make the unarmed red shirts innocent, as they were part of an armed gang. There were 80+ red shirts killed but only pictures of a dozen or so. There were also 1400+ injured. Probably some of these were armed. Ofcourse they aren't going to take their guns to the hospital, are they?
There WERE red shirts with guns shooting at the army. Just because there were no pictures of dead red shirts with guns doesn't make them innocent by-standers.
Killed for being near a firecracker?
You are repeating your silly fantasies. can you provide a link to a source to back up your claims or not? That is the question here. i guess you can't. i don't need photos or video, newspaper articles (can you read?) would be enough. i would like to know where you get your theory from.
The govt or CRES declaring that the security forces/soldiers didn't shot and killed these people. the govt said it were the terrorist who killed these people. believe me, i read all the reports.
Are you now saying that 'the terrorist', did actually a good job, acted on behalf of the good people, restoring the peace and taking out the firecracker armed criminals behind the barricades?
There are rules and laws for the use of firearms in law enforcement. a situation like you describe it would be a clear violation of these rules.
So please if you have evidence for it, please come forward and post it. or stop posting lies.
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Even according to Abhisit the red shirts were ordinary citizens, innocent people demanding democracy.
Uh, ofcourse the Red Shirts was ordinary citizens...what did you expect the PM to call them, aliens?
That however does not mean that many of them was involved in illegal activities, be in illegal occupation, shooting fireworks, setting tires on fire, throwing rocks, shooting glas-beads with slingshots, firing handguns, throwing or launching grenades etc.
Who from the list of the killed people fired a handgun and who from the list of the killed people launched grenades? do you have their names?
can you point out the other crimes those from the list of the dead people had committed?
details please. thank you.
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^^
anotherliar, thanks for proving that you cannot back up your claim.
That's really pushing it. Making claims on a English speaking forum and backing them up with Thai literature. I heard that some of the criminals with the red shirts on were shot by there own people. Now I will get a article in Russian and post it as proof. Get real.
The red shirts invaded hospitals threw grenades at citizens who weren't even in the zone were waiting for there transportation had no guns, tried to burn Bangkok down refused to negotiate just demanded like a little kid. Deprived thousands of honest hard working citizens of there livly hood and never once said they did any thing wrong. They were paid 5,000 baht a day to cause truble. The leaders knew that Abhisit would not step down right now as they demanded and yet they led there followers on to believe that he would. If they had called it off after a week people would have had a lot of respect for them.
All the army did was try to uphold the law and they started shooting at them. Of course they were going to shoot back. Did you really think they would not defend themselves. If they had carried on as you red shirts would have people believe the death toll would have been in the thousands. That is reality some thing you people have a hard time excepting. You were beaten and shown up for what you were a bunch of trouble makers with no concern for any body but your selves. You cried wanted democracy are those actions the signs off what you call democracy.
You people think that because the population wants democracy they are backing you thugs up wrong. They look on you as a bunch of useless drunks. Look at the mess you left to clean up. Just like any other drunk after a two month bender. Hardly the actions of a responsible citizen.
FYI. We are in Thailand, not in Russia.
Who is "you people"? I am just reiterate the government version of the incidents and don't make up some fantasies i can not substantiate.
Even according to Abhisit the red shirts were ordinary citizens, innocent people demanding democracy.
If you have any prove that the killed civilians were armed, please post it. i would like to see that.
If you have any sources were the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians please come forward with it. Thank you.
They were paid 5000 baht per day? where did you get that from? you just add more lies. please stop it.
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I thought you were on a short holiday break?
I must admit that the implementation of the rules is also not always clear to me. Still a link is illegal if the site you link to doesn't want / allow it. Also the contents of the article you link to may be objectable in some way EVEN when on a respctable news site. Anyway any forum has the right to set rules, even silly ones. If you don't like them, or can't abide by them, look for another forum that suits you more.
I am not argue about. I just want tell everybody to keep in mind that a link to asia times online can bring you into trouble here, so better ignore asia times online and don't post links to that source and also don't be surprise when others ignore that content from that source and not take it into consideration.
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Curious if you read the news? Did you miss this article?
Curious if you know what is allowed at this board and what not?
I got an extended suspension of my posting rights for linking to an Asia Times article by Shawn Crispin, since them i ignore that source as illegal for Thailand for that forum.
Maybe it was the content of the article, and not the location of it that was the problem.
Did the article that you linked to discuss things that shouldn't be discussed on here?
I didn't quote any objectionable content i just posted the link to the 'location'. The article and its content was also republished by TAN network. So i guess nothing wrong with the content but posting links to Shawn Crispin aricles in Asia Times Online is not allowed at this board.
I got even articles from The Nation deleted here. So the argument 'Curious if you read the news? Did you miss this article? ' is a little bit strange. There isn't every news allowed in the Thaivisa cosmos.
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^^
Rubl, your old problem, you have to read also brahmburgers previous entry. he started calling others liar and he lies too and ignores all other human right violations when they are not fitting into a anti-thaksin rant.
btw. Thaksin said also that 'We are sorry they died untimely deaths'.
That of course excuse nothing, but if you are not able or willing to see and point out the similarities to more recently incidents your are nothing else than a hypocrite and a liar (intentional or mis-guided).
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BTW, I would really like to buy some of those city name shirts. I think a lot of other foreigners would also, but the majority of us can't fit into them.
There is an I AM TOO FAT forum at this board, you can find it under 'Health, Body and Medicine'.
Its not all about being fat... i have a lot of trouble fitting into clothes too.. but that was my choice and i am certainly not fat.
You can be big without being fat.
Looking at your avatar you are probably also that what a fat gay would call 'body fascist'.
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I am not really interested in politics. But I do believe all countries are the same....... power corrupts and thus it is hard to have honest people in power.
Thailand currently is not a democracy, but a police/military state. Under this condition Thaksin would be crazy to surrender himself to the will of his opponents.
I read all the posts painting him as an evil person who harmed Thailand. These people obviously know nothing of the recent political history of Thailand.
Thaksin was elected & re-elected by the people of Thailand, he was & is popular with the majority of Thais. He was ousted while he was out of the country by his opponents with the backing of the military.
Was he good for Thailand? I believe he was ... he is a good businessman and Thailand was prospering. Was he corrupt? Probably. Are there any honest politicians taking his place? Not likely. If all politicians are the same, isn't better to have one that does good things for Thailand? Best and most rational comment I have read on Thai Visa for the past 5 Years.
You start your post with "I am not really interested in politics" which is the prequel to the lies (intentional or mis-guided) which follow. It's your first post, so perhaps we should welcome you to T.Visa and go easy on you. However, it's easy to post under multiple names (articulated in the new book titled; GUARDED CONVERSATIONS).
In your next to last sentence, you propose that all Thai politicians are liars and corrupt - so you think it's better to have one of the corrupt liars who may have done the least harm to Thailand. In some ways I agree, and it pains me to think that there are few (if any) honest people to run for top offices in Thailand. However, I don't agree with the premise that T did 'good things for Thailand.' He made loans easier and therefore ran up debts for poor farmers. He caused the death of thousands of people - none of whom rec'd a trial (fair or otherwise). At least T and his ex-wife rec'd trials. Of the thousands of Thais (nearly all were young males) supposedly involved with drugs or with civil protests in the south - none of them received a trial of any type. ....and all died on T's watch. Was that good for Thailand? Did T ever apologize (no!) Was there ever a proper investigation? (no!).
T should be hauled before the Int'l Court at the Hague for crimes against humanity.
Hypocrite hippie. Looks like that you are full of lies and propaganda and not jim walker.
If extra-judicial killing and human right violations really upset you, where was your voice of protest 2-3 month ago?
and what you talking about? civil protest in the south? all died under Thaksins watch? Thaksin never apologised? there was no trial of any type?
How did you know I was a hippie, thru and thru. Am also a tree hugger, but that's beside the point.
...."my voice of protest 2-3 months ago?" ......I did protest, via letters etc. I was appalled by the raucous crowd which commandeered downtown Bkk, and protected people (black shirts) who shot innocents from within those barricades - with grenades and bullets (example: the woman killed on the railway platform 100 meters away).
mazeltov asks; 'civil protest in the south?' - Ken replies; Yes, were you asleep when Tak Bai happened?
mazeltov asks 'all died under Thaksins watch?' Yes. T was PM then, and made it crystal clear before the protests that he would be 100% in charge of all that happens by authorites. He often claimed he was the CEO PM, remember?
mazeltov asks; 'Thaksin never apologised?' No. Apology never exists for Thaksin - for anything he may have done.
mazeltov asks; 'There was no trial of any type?' If you know of any trial for any of the drug dealers who were extra-judiciously killed, or any trials for the protesters who were killed in the south, please let us know. I've never heard of any. In contrast, T and his family have had trials in Thailand. They also lied to avoid the law, when they said they needed to go see the Olympics, and promised to return.
Hypocrite hippie, Tak Bai is your civil protest? Do you know what happen? Why and how people did protests there? Was it civil or was the crackdown by security forces legal and justified and all according to the law?
FAST FORWARD into the year 2009:
Court clears security officials over Tak Bai deathsIn one of the most controversial verdicts passed in decades, a court yesterday cleared security officials of misconduct in the October 2004 Tak Bai incident in which 85 Malay-Muslim protesters died at the hands of the authorities.The two-member panel in the post-mortem inquestconcluded that Army and police officials had acted according to the law, used sound judgement and done their bestgiven the circumstances....By The Nation Published on May 30, 2009You blame Thaksin for things that don't make him actually outstanding from others, under the current powers or under the Junta happen the same kind of human right violations if not worse. But you do like Thaksin would be the only one doing this. That makes you (intentional or mis-guided) to a liar.
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One would think a military should be sized to defend itself from outside aggressors, but I don't see hordes massing on the Thai border. Maybe the military is sizing itself to defend itself from perceived inside aggressors.
Curious if you read the news? Did you miss this article?
Curious if you know what is allowed at this board and what not?
I got an extended suspension of my posting rights for linking to an Asia Times article by Shawn Crispin, since them i ignore that source as illegal for Thailand for that forum.
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BTW, I would really like to buy some of those city name shirts. I think a lot of other foreigners would also, but the majority of us can't fit into them.
There is an I AM TOO FAT forum at this board, you can find it under 'Health, Body and Medicine'.
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I have become convinced, from reading this forum, that anyone who can defend Dr. Taksin's behavior during or after his Prime Ministership is either woefully uninformed, deluded, or totally immoral. (or paid by Mr. Amsterdam)
I have become convinced, from reading this forum, that anyone who does noting else but repeatedly gospel like blame always and only Thaksin, even years after his Prime Ministership, is either woefully uninformed, deluded, or totally immoral.(or a drunken beer bar patron)
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I am not really interested in politics. But I do believe all countries are the same....... power corrupts and thus it is hard to have honest people in power.
Thailand currently is not a democracy, but a police/military state. Under this condition Thaksin would be crazy to surrender himself to the will of his opponents.
I read all the posts painting him as an evil person who harmed Thailand. These people obviously know nothing of the recent political history of Thailand.
Thaksin was elected & re-elected by the people of Thailand, he was & is popular with the majority of Thais. He was ousted while he was out of the country by his opponents with the backing of the military.
Was he good for Thailand? I believe he was ... he is a good businessman and Thailand was prospering. Was he corrupt? Probably. Are there any honest politicians taking his place? Not likely. If all politicians are the same, isn't better to have one that does good things for Thailand? Best and most rational comment I have read on Thai Visa for the past 5 Years.
You start your post with "I am not really interested in politics" which is the prequel to the lies (intentional or mis-guided) which follow. It's your first post, so perhaps we should welcome you to T.Visa and go easy on you. However, it's easy to post under multiple names (articulated in the new book titled; GUARDED CONVERSATIONS).
In your next to last sentence, you propose that all Thai politicians are liars and corrupt - so you think it's better to have one of the corrupt liars who may have done the least harm to Thailand. In some ways I agree, and it pains me to think that there are few (if any) honest people to run for top offices in Thailand. However, I don't agree with the premise that T did 'good things for Thailand.' He made loans easier and therefore ran up debts for poor farmers. He caused the death of thousands of people - none of whom rec'd a trial (fair or otherwise). At least T and his ex-wife rec'd trials. Of the thousands of Thais (nearly all were young males) supposedly involved with drugs or with civil protests in the south - none of them received a trial of any type. ....and all died on T's watch. Was that good for Thailand? Did T ever apologize (no!) Was there ever a proper investigation? (no!).
T should be hauled before the Int'l Court at the Hague for crimes against humanity.
Hypocrite hippie. Looks like that you are full of lies and propaganda and not jim walker.
If extra-judicial killing and human right violations really upset you, where was your voice of protest 2-3 month ago?
and what you talking about? civil protest in the south? all died under Thaksins watch? Thaksin never apologised? there was no trial of any type?
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sorry ... I'll stop posting lies about there being unarmed and innocent protesters.
The other part can't be a lie, because they were using the statistics that you provided.
What nonsense you are talking?
nobody knows who killed พล.ต.ขัตติยะ สวัสดิผล Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol alias Seh Daeng. You have heard or read about seh daeng before? Do you know who he is?
In case of ส.อ.อนุสิทธิ์ จันทร์แสนคอ Lt Col Anusit Chansaento, same, nobody knows who killed him. probably the terrorists. the same killers who shot all the other innocent persons.
only in a few cases we know for sure who pulled the trigger. like in that case of the dead soldier จ่าอากาศเอกพงศ์ชลิต พิทยานนทกาญจน์ Air Force Sgt. Phongchalit Phipayanontakan and that young boy who also got killed at a road checkpoint. They got killed by armed soldiers under the order of CRES and Abhisit.
If you have any prove that the killed civilians were armed, please post it. i would like to see that.
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^^
anotherliar, thanks for proving that you cannot back up your claim.
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over 30 % of the soldiers who died in May were evidently killed by the security forces.
The red shirt security forces?
killed by government security forces in kinda friendly fire accident.
"evidently" ... so you have evidence??? or are you "just posting more lies"?
yes, i am not posting lies or fictional dreams. i am only posting thing i can substantiate when asked.
http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/totaldead7-6-53.pdf
death of soldiers in May:
May 13 พล.ต.ขัตติยะ สวัสดิผล Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol alias Seh Daeng, shot in the head, apparently by a sniper, died on may 17 in the hospital.
May 17 จ่าอากาศเอกพงศ์ชลิต พิทยานนทกาญจน์ Air Force Sgt. Phongchalit Phipayanontakan, killed by army fire while he was approaching a security check point on a pick up truck. (khaosod.co.th ยิงดับทอ.ขับปิกอัพย่านสีลม-ผบ.รูดซิปปาก)
May 19 ส.อ.อนุสิทธิ์ จันทร์แสนคอ Lt Col Anusit Chansaento, i think he died in hospital from injuries probably caused by a Grenade and got his Lt Col rank after his death. there isn't much in the news about him.
3 members of the armed forces, that is the total number of the military, non-civilian, death in May. One of them was killed in somekind of a 'friendly fire' accident. That is one third, over 30%.
some argued that so many soldiers died, so i thought it will be okay to operate with stats in percent.
any more questions?
now its your turn, can you bring any evidence and backups for your claims or are you just anotherliar?
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over 30 % of the soldiers who died in May were evidently killed by the security forces.
The red shirt security forces?
killed by government security forces in kinda friendly fire accident.
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Mazeltov>> You come with accusations that the government shot innocent unarmed people. How about YOU post the evidence for that?
Defender of status quo don't have to post proof, the challenger to it have to.
:facedesk:
Little wannabe bully. You play the challenger here.
Can you read, can you think? i wrote KILLED BY TERRORISTS. that is the govt official version.
If you have any sources were the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians please come forward with it.
Otherwise please stop posting lies. Thank you.
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Both Pheua Thai and Pumjai Thai MPS are for hire, receiving money from their backers, unlike the Democrat MPs who have to give 10% of their salary to the party every month under the party rules.
Who cares? The Democrats not. they build a coalition government together with Bum Jai Thai. And Abhisit still keeps Interior Minister Chaovarat Chanweerakul and Transport Minister Sophon Saram in the cabinet.
Because in the Democrats are only yes man, sheeps following the leader, you have to buy the whole party. That why they have now the donation scandal.
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Yes they were breaking the law but do think they deserved to be executed?
The ones shooting at the army probably did. I don't think any protesters sitting at the stage were killed. Just the ones standing behind fuel soaked tyre barricades with firecrackers, slingshots, and often, guns.
You know it or you just assume it? How you come to that conclusion?
I don't believe you. Neither that 'execution' were justified nor that only those with guns got killed. Have you any evidence for it? If not, please stop posting lies.
Did I say "only guns"? No.
That mean you cannot prove anything nor have any evidence, right? hope you now stop posting lies.
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Mazeltov>> You come with accusations that the government shot innocent unarmed people. How about YOU post the evidence for that?
I did already wrote long entries to support my claim that the killed were unarmed and innocent civilians, killed by terrorists. Have i now to repeat me again?
I asked you many times to bring some evidence that the dead civilians were armed, but you never came up with a proof nor anyone else. nor i read somewhere in the newspaper that all or most of the killed were armed. If you have links to such articles - post them.
Yes you have rambled on and on and on. But you have yet to show any proof that a soldier was taking aim at a unarmed red shirt. You display the typical red shirt mentality. Take no credit for your part accuse every one else show no proof of your allegations. I am sorry but a picture of a soldier aiming a gun into a area where there is armed red shirts is not proof of killing innocent citizens. If they were innocent what where they doing there. All the innocent people where at home and sad to say thousands of them should have been there earning there living. But you red shirts having no concience just ignored that. As long as Thaksins money continued to flow into your pockets that was OK.
How many soldiers died and how many protesters/reporters died or were injured by gunfire?
work it out for yourself who was doing all the shooting, it's not rocket science is it?
over 30 % of the soldiers who died in May were evidently killed by the security forces.
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A civilian clothed person stood over a soldier that was injured...and he wonders why he might have been incorrectly targeted?
You said it. incorrectly targeted. there is no excuse for.
Thai PM Abhisit Sued For Attempted Murder
in Thailand News
Posted
did i rephrase you wrong? didn't you said that those who were killed deserved it?
Is you rabulistic argument now that the govt don't deny killing ANY protesters?
So how many got killed by the government forces? What kind of weapon they had? what are their names? Can you link to any sources where the government claims to have successfully taken out one of the terrorists by killing him?
If you can please do it, i am asking that all the time.