passon

Sorry to be so vociferous this morning, but just had to add something about TV:

When I interact with a Thai who wants to improve their English, I'll say a phrase in Thai and immediately say the same in English. It sometimes happens the other way: first say it in English, then the same in Thai.

How about a TV program which does the same? Since 95% of Thai TV is soaps dealing with screwed up inter-personal crap, also change the venue - to science and nature topics - and keep it simple. For example, a couple of bright young people explaining the solar system: For each sentence uttered, the same in the other language follows immediately. ....could do it for shows on plants, animals, chemistry, geology, archeology, rocketry...

Naw, perhaps smarter to stick with the TV topic that's most popular in Thailand; Emotionally shipwrecked females screaming at each other.

There is actually a Thai show on Sunday morning television that uses this concept. I believe it is called, English Breakfast. It has mostly younger Thai actors that are involved in a variety of situations, whereas they communicate in English first and immediately repeat the words or sentence(s) in Thai. These actors overall speak very good English and I have recommended the program to Thais if they are truly serious about learning English. It actually also works well the other way around for English speakers. I have not watched it for several months, but as far as I know, it is still airing on television. I think it is a good model for expanding this concept within the English curriculum.

Finally someone with brain has realized what is going to happen in the next 12 months. The only problem is its the wrong person who understands it

BOT does not seem to grasp the concept and most likely driving it down that path with extra speed because in the end, they are(the Thai elite and ministers, including CEO's etc) the ones who will double if not triple their wealth.

The only thing article does not mention is how Thailand would pull out of it this time around, and also considering that the entire world has gone through recession and some parts of it still in it, this time round it will hit Thailand twice as hard.

Well said. I've brought this issue up several times with my friends, that the only ones who could reasonably be profiting from this windfall are the small percentage of financial aristocrats who have enough money and influence to manipulate the market. One of the excuses used to justify the appreciation of the baht was the lower cost of imports for things such as fuel and raw materials, yet Shell just raised the cost of gasohol by 40 satong (no savings there), and TMB just published an article in the BP showing the formula used that determines the value of the baht, and concluding that capital controls do not normally work and usually have the opposite effect of increasing foreign investment; therefore suggesting that there would probably be no changes in monetary policy by this year's end. There is an old economic theory, as you prescribed, that what goes up, must come down. The higher it climbs, the farther it falls. Therefore the choice is to land softly or to crash land. Unfortunately a reversal of fortune has no effect on the ones who were flying the economy, but impacts everyone else who gets caught in its wake.

<deleted>. What we are seeing today is miles apart from the build up to the 90's bubble. The influx of capital is going into generally mature projects unlike the pre-bubble era when anyone including foreigners could walk in and secure a 40 million baht loan by mortgaging a rai of land 500 km upcountry in Nakorn Nowhere. The bubble started as early as 91/92. In 95 standing on a 15 story building in Sukhumvit you could see over 300 construction cranes building surplus, useless, shopping malls, ridiculous accommodation, massage parlors or just plain phallic symbols to their owners. Some of these white elephants buried entire generations in debt. Stupid is as stupid does!

There is a very different set of fundamentals on the table today.

From my balcony I can see about that many cranes up now building an endless sea of condominium projects. The one across the street from me has been some 60% vacant for over 1.5 years since it first opened. The same could be said for shopping malls; they appear to be going up everywhere in Bangkok. Considering the cost of a lot of these condominiums, the average (Thai) income scale, along with runaway baht appreciation, it makes me wonder how many other condominium projects and shopping malls will be completed with scarce resources to support the cost of building them.

Back to the real toipic, it may make things more difficult for me if we see 25 Baht or less to the dollar, but I can adjust to it. Unfortunately for others that have retired already, or have some other issues this could be a real hardship, and I do have sympathy for them.

Usara Wilaipich, senior economist at Standard Chartered, said regional strength had its roots in the impact of the global recession, with a loss of confidence in the dollar.

It is part of "the real topic," and some people decided to elaborate the causes of the global recession and how it relates to the loss of confidence in the dollar. We all know how it impacts those who rely on the strength of the dollar, and how it helps those who benefit from its weakness because their earnings are derived in Thai baht, so its fairly natural for people to want to speculate, vent or discuss alternatives to the effects of a strong baht. Therefore this is nothing more than an extension of ideas which becomes part of the real topic. 28 baht to the dollar, which seems very feasible at this point, is unfortunately my breaking point, but I'm happy to hear that you and others can probably sustain yourselves in a 25 baht to the dollar world. I on the other hand will have to pack it in, and that's a pretty sad reality from where I sit! Thailand has been my home for the last 6.5 years...

I meant I don't really have time to continue debating it, but back to the politics momentarily. I just do not think it makes sense to blame one president for the the failings of a multi trillion dollar economy, and that goes for Obama too. But the Democrats have had considerable power in Congress since 2007, and I haven't seem them or President Obama do anything that gives me, and apparently others, cause to be optimistic. If people thought excessive spending was bad under GW, why would people think it's ok for us to spend even more now, that we don't have? Also, I do not just blame the politicians, corporations and the public have to face their share of responsibility.

So far as Baht levels, I hope it remains at a level so that people can continue to stay, but I'm afraid some have already reached their limit. And, from the looks of other currencies, there may not be a lot of options in relocating.

I agree with a lot of what your saying. However Bush inherited a vibrant economy that he pretty much destroyed in his two terms as president. Obama inherited the mess that Bush left behind and just as Bush got it right the first time after 9/11when we went into Afghanistan, he got it wrong when he changed course and went into Iraq. Obama got it right with TARP, but got it wrong with oversight, or a lack thereof and has failed to plug the leaks of fiscal irresponsibility. President Obama will own the results of his efforts and any promises he broke to the American people (what politician doesn't, I know), but there is, as you say, enough blame to go around. But, from what I have seen unfolding just over the last few weeks, the appreciation of the baht seems to have no end. In spite of the challenges that we all face in Thailand as foreigners, we overlook the obstacles and we stay, because this is home. I know there is an inevitability in all of this and that my time here is getting shorter, and tonight, as I was sitting outside one of my favorite food shops eating guatio moo and dim sum, I intently watched the people walk by, observed the buses, taxis and tuk tuks going back and forth and thinking this will all soon be a memory. I spent a lot of money moving my things into this country and I'll spend a lot more removing them, and even though one should never say, "never," it is unlikely (once bitten, twice shy) that I will ever move back. I will truly miss the Thai people who are the genuine article and who personify Thai hospitality, for many of them have become my friends. But, as my aunt has always said, "life is something that happens right after you make plans." Again, I'm happy for those who are in a better financial position and who can weather this storm, but I've talked to a good many people lately who can not. But, at least I had the opportunity to be here and to experience the lifestyle and traditions of Thailand in ways that most tourist could never imagine. I've had a great time!

Back to the real toipic, it may make things more difficult for me if we see 25 Baht or less to the dollar, but I can adjust to it. Unfortunately for others that have retired already, or have some other issues this could be a real hardship, and I do have sympathy for them.

Usara Wilaipich, senior economist at Standard Chartered, said regional strength had its roots in the impact of the global recession, with a loss of confidence in the dollar.

It is part of "the real topic," and some people decided to elaborate the causes of the global recession and how it relates to the loss of confidence in the dollar. We all know how it impacts those who rely on the strength of the dollar, and how it helps those who benefit from its weakness because their earnings are derived in Thai baht, so its fairly natural for people to want to speculate, vent or discuss alternatives to the effects of a strong baht. Therefore this is nothing more than an extension of ideas which becomes part of the real topic. 28 baht to the dollar, which seems very feasible at this point, is unfortunately my breaking point, but I'm happy to hear that you and others can probably sustain yourselves in a 25 baht to the dollar world. I on the other hand will have to pack it in, and that's a pretty sad reality from where I sit! Thailand has been my home for the last 6.5 years...

No worries I have a feeling with yank elections leaning towards fiscal conservative policies I dare say a strong $ will return. Expect a bump after the elections.

Fiscal conservative policies is what got America into the mess it's in today, so what your saying is that the guys who robbed the bank should now be rehired to guard it. Realizing of course the bank no longer has any money in it to guard, that "bump after the elections" you are referring to, if the republicans win a majority in November (which is not necessarily a slam/dunk) will be the sound of the American economy crashing under the weight of fiscal mismanagement and corporate (special) interest. I'm not doing handstands with the policies of President Obama, but a republican majority is clearly not the solution, and a lot of Americans are beginning to sober up to that fact.

How did conservative fiscal policies cause the situation? Seems they weren't conservative enough, but of course the Democrats in congress wouldn't have had anything to do with that would they, easier to just ignore the facts and blame Bush.

There is something in life called the lesser of two evils. The democrats are far from perfect, but let's digress, shall we? President Bush left America with a 482 billion dollar deficit. Public debt swelled to 2 trillion dollars. Economic growth grew by just 1.9%. President Bush created only 58,000 new jobs with a record loss of 2.3 million jobs, the worst unemployment numbers since Herbert Hoover was president. Household income decreased by 1,000.00 which reduced the 6,000.00 increase under Clinton. Bush inherited a 5.6 trillion dollar, ten year projected trade surplus and transformed it into a 3.2 trillion dollar projected deficit. Foreign owned government debt increased from 1 trillion dollars in January 2001 to 2.4 trillion by the end of 2007. Housing foreclosures reached 2.5% of residential mortgages outstanding. 8.6 million more people lost their health insurance, national savings declined and under his watch all of this transformed into the biggest financial crisis in American history since The Great Depression. Are democrats blameless? Certainly not. But presidents have to own up to the failures of their policies, and Obama will have to own up to his, and he at least said as much early on into his presidency. However, the republican party when in the majority and when in the minority failed to challenge President Bush on his policies, and the republican party has shown us its ability to block legislation while in the minority over policies it does not agree with under the Obama Administration, and I have not seen one policy that has come out of the executive branch that the republican party has even attempted to find common with in order to get the economy moving, or offered alternatives other then the ones that created the financial crisis while George Bush was president. So, if we ignore the facts, Bush is blameless, but if we embrace the facts, Bush owns this crisis. The problem for President Obama is; what worked in the short term will probably not work in the long term, and if he fails to deliver he could very well end up being a one term president. However, if the alternative is to bring back the old guard, that's up to the America voter, but as I said previously, "a republican majority is clearly not the solution."

There is not doubt the financial crisis has hurt the American taxpayer. However, TARP was a necessary evil.

When the final tally is made the bottom line will be a worthwhile investment, Most of it will be paid back with

interest. Interest paid and profit on stock sold will more than cover any monies not paid back.

Although the Bush administration caused a lot of damage, Obama and company's runaway spending is leading to a spiraling deficit that will eventually lead to a financial crisis far worse than most Americans realize possible.

I not talking about politics, but the urgent need for sound fiscal and monetary policies. Sooner or later the printing presses will run out of ink.

The Bush administration caused "all" the damage," not a lot of it. Obama and company is an apparent snipe at the current administration, so your bias is obvious. President Obama had a very short window to fix a long term problem, which were the failed policies of the Bush Administration. So please let me indulge you and quote Simon Johnson Chief Economist at the International Monetary Fund from 2007 to 2008 and a professor at the M.I.T. Salon School of Management, who along with many other economist agree that, " The fiscal stimulus played a decisive role in reducing the depth and pain of the recession and is now helping to get a recovery under way." However, this is a fiscal problem unlike anything America has ever experienced since The Great Depression. This recovery has apparently dodged the bullet for a 2nd dip, or double dip recession which the IMF has already said is, "unlikely." However, there are still mitigating factors that could trigger a second wave of economic setbacks that would jeopardize an already fragile American economy, which is if, for example, the Chinese governments started selling off money borrowed by the Bush Administration to fund its war in Iraq. The Chinese own over 187 billions dollars in American Treasury Notes, so the U.S. government must walk a thin line when negotiating with China over trade imbalances or risk a sell off. But, once again, this is a problem created by President Bush, not President Obama. This financial crisis breaches the borders of the United States, so in some regards it is each man for himself to survive in a fiscal tsunami that has only abated itself with short term relief. TARP and TLGP were short term solutions that temporarily slowed the fast moving train of fiscal destruction. Many American jobs have been exported overseas and unemployment remains high. The solutions are evasive to the extent that the party of No has contributed little, if anything to a consensus of bipartisanship that might have led to a better dialogue between government and the private sector to find solutions that could have reinvented the wheels of innovation; and, as a result, created new jobs in new industries. I did not see you, me or anyone else run for the job of president, and I don't see you, me, or anyone else offering any better solutions, either. As I said earlier, I'm not doing handstands over President Obama's policies, but I can say this much, he is much more engaged in seeking out solutions, listening to all sectors of America and articulating his policies then his predecessor ever was. President Obama did not create this mess and there is little economic history to support what theories, or policies, or precedents might otherwise and effectively bring America back to economic prosperity. Iceland, Greece, Spain, Ireland, the UK and so many other countries are experiencing the same depths of economic disparity, which is further proof that the solutions are difficult and the road ahead will continue to be painful. A case in point is the Thailand Financial Crisis of 1997 and how long it has taken them to recover. Nothing of this magnitude will ever have easy solutions; and those printing presses? They ran out of ink long before President Obama, President Bush and a lot of other presidents before them, so a sound fiscal and monetary policy will unfortunately depend more on what is thrown at the wall, and what eventually sticks. Therefore, the current financial crisis is far worse than anyone in America could have ever imagined, and that is what happens in an environment of complacency, denial and arrogance.

By your logic then, Bush should have blamed Bill Clinton for his failed Foreign and Military Policies for causing the 9/11 attacks and any other related problems? Not to mention some of the economic policies under Clinton was the beginning of some of these current problems. And the Demcrats in congress had nothing to do with any of this?

Anyway, I provided some real information, not just the opinion of one group of economists, if you chose to ignore it that's up to you.

You were not talking about President Clinton, you were talking about President Bush and President Obama, and when President Clinton left office there was a deficit reduction and a surplus of 86.4 billion dollars. When Clinton left office economic growth was at 4.00% and his administrations policies created over 22 million jobs, median family income was up over 6,000.00 and unemployment was at its lowest rate in over 30 years. There was less poverty, more home ownership and less inflation. 9/11 happened on George Bush's watch, not on Bill Clinton's. Therefore, your current argument is that George Bush failed to recognize Bill Clinton's failed foreign and military policies by not reviewing them or implementing changes that may have otherwise prevented the events of 9/11? But of course that was not the issue, the issue was the fact that you attempted to demonize the policies of President Obama for (potentially) creating a larger financial crisis and minimize President Bush's role in creating the crisis that Obama is trying to resolve. Apparently you ran out of factual ammunition and took aim at another president, who also happens to be a democratic president; so, once again, your bias is obvious!

I bought in very heavily around 12,400 per Thai baht gold so at 19,000 I am not complaining. But like I said it was at 19,000 when it was $1/33 baht...and gold was way below todays price.

Yeah well you know that amazing American administration that was voted in a couple of years ago, well they havent finished milking the Americans of their wealth yet, the deception continues and my guess is this 'reset' is going to take a little while to reveals itself in all its ugliness.

What I find amazing is your conjecture to blame the Obama Administration for the failures of the Bush Administration; President Bush robbed America of its wealth long before President Obama was even a candidate for office, so if you want to link Americas financial crisis to the appreciation of the baht against the US dollar, then let's get to the heart of the real deception, which were the failed policies of George W. Bush with his propaganda war in Iraq that has cost America billions in IOUS to the Chinese government, as well as his failure to reign in the excesses of Wall Street with its international ponzi schemes that cost the American taxpayers billions more in TARP and TLGP (rescue) funding which led to the biggest financial crisis in America and around the world since the Great Depression; his generous tax breaks for the rich, and job losses under his two terms in office that were the worst on record since World War II. The ugliness, as you like to frame it comes from anyone who has the unmitigated gall to blame the guy who is attempting to extinguish the fire as the arsonist who started it; but true to the talking points of the republican party, deny the truth and embrace the lie.

True there were some serious job lossses the last quarter of 2009, but look at this chart from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the rate ranged from about 4% to just over 6% for much of the time. http://data.bls.gov/..._id=LNS14000000

I don't see how that can be described as the worst jobs record since WWII, but then again I'm not interested in repeating inaccurate rhetorical information.

I agree that the numbers are never accurate, but from 2008, the last year of the Bush presidency up to 2009 the numbers move up significantly due to the impact of the American Financial crisis; therefore this is a direct result of what I was discussing about the failed policies of the Bush Administration. Unemployment does in fact remain high in 2010, and President Obama does now, going into his second year of office, own those numbers . My argument however was the less then veiled attempt to dump this crisis on President Obama as if he created it. Nothing could be father from the truth and the facts speak volumes about the reality of the American Financial Crisis. Therefore, I was only pointing out the facts as I understand them, much in the same way you did with the unemployment numbers. I did look at them, and I thank you for bringing them to my attention.

There is not doubt the financial crisis has hurt the American taxpayer. However, TARP was a necessary evil.

When the final tally is made the bottom line will be a worthwhile investment, Most of it will be paid back with

interest. Interest paid and profit on stock sold will more than cover any monies not paid back.

Although the Bush administration caused a lot of damage, Obama and company's runaway spending is leading to a spiraling deficit that will eventually lead to a financial crisis far worse than most Americans realize possible.

I not talking about politics, but the urgent need for sound fiscal and monetary policies. Sooner or later the printing presses will run out of ink.

The Bush administration caused "all" the damage," not a lot of it. Obama and company is an apparent snipe at the current administration, so your bias is obvious. President Obama had a very short window to fix a long term problem, which were the failed policies of the Bush Administration. So please let me indulge you and quote Simon Johnson Chief Economist at the International Monetary Fund from 2007 to 2008 and a professor at the M.I.T. Salon School of Management, who along with many other economist agree that, " The fiscal stimulus played a decisive role in reducing the depth and pain of the recession and is now helping to get a recovery under way." However, this is a fiscal problem unlike anything America has ever experienced since The Great Depression. This recovery has apparently dodged the bullet for a 2nd dip, or double dip recession which the IMF has already said is, "unlikely." However, there are still mitigating factors that could trigger a second wave of economic setbacks that would jeopardize an already fragile American economy, which is if, for example, the Chinese governments started selling off money borrowed by the Bush Administration to fund its war in Iraq. The Chinese own over 187 billions dollars in American Treasury Notes, so the U.S. government must walk a thin line when negotiating with China over trade imbalances or risk a sell off. But, once again, this is a problem created by President Bush, not President Obama. This financial crisis breaches the borders of the United States, so in some regards it is each man for himself to survive in a fiscal tsunami that has only abated itself with short term relief. TARP and TLGP were short term solutions that temporarily slowed the fast moving train of fiscal destruction. Many American jobs have been exported overseas and unemployment remains high. The solutions are evasive to the extent that the party of No has contributed little, if anything to a consensus of bipartisanship that might have led to a better dialogue between government and the private sector to find solutions that could have reinvented the wheels of innovation; and, as a result, created new jobs in new industries. I did not see you, me or anyone else run for the job of president, and I don't see you, me, or anyone else offering any better solutions, either. As I said earlier, I'm not doing handstands over President Obama's policies, but I can say this much, he is much more engaged in seeking out solutions, listening to all sectors of America and articulating his policies then his predecessor ever was. President Obama did not create this mess and there is little economic history to support what theories, or policies, or precedents might otherwise and effectively bring America back to economic prosperity. Iceland, Greece, Spain, Ireland, the UK and so many other countries are experiencing the same depths of economic disparity, which is further proof that the solutions are difficult and the road ahead will continue to be painful. A case in point is the Thailand Financial Crisis of 1997 and how long it has taken them to recover. Nothing of this magnitude will ever have easy solutions; and those printing presses? They ran out of ink long before President Obama, President Bush and a lot of other presidents before them, so a sound fiscal and monetary policy will unfortunately depend more on what is thrown at the wall, and what eventually sticks. Therefore, the current financial crisis is far worse than anyone in America could have ever imagined, and that is what happens in an environment of complacency, denial and arrogance.

No worries I have a feeling with yank elections leaning towards fiscal conservative policies I dare say a strong $ will return. Expect a bump after the elections.

Fiscal conservative policies is what got America into the mess it's in today, so what your saying is that the guys who robbed the bank should now be rehired to guard it. Realizing of course the bank no longer has any money in it to guard, that "bump after the elections" you are referring to, if the republicans win a majority in November (which is not necessarily a slam/dunk) will be the sound of the American economy crashing under the weight of fiscal mismanagement and corporate (special) interest. I'm not doing handstands with the policies of President Obama, but a republican majority is clearly not the solution, and a lot of Americans are beginning to sober up to that fact.

I bought in very heavily around 12,400 per Thai baht gold so at 19,000 I am not complaining. But like I said it was at 19,000 when it was $1/33 baht...and gold was way below todays price.

Yeah well you know that amazing American administration that was voted in a couple of years ago, well they havent finished milking the Americans of their wealth yet, the deception continues and my guess is this 'reset' is going to take a little while to reveals itself in all its ugliness.

What I find amazing is your conjecture to blame the Obama Administration for the failures of the Bush Administration; President Bush robbed America of its wealth long before President Obama was even a candidate for office, so if you want to link Americas financial crisis to the appreciation of the baht against the US dollar, then let's get to the heart of the real deception, which were the failed policies of George W. Bush with his propaganda war in Iraq that has cost America billions in IOUS to the Chinese government, as well as his failure to reign in the excesses of Wall Street with its international ponzi schemes that cost the American taxpayers billions more in TARP and TLGP (rescue) funding which led to the biggest financial crisis in America and around the world since the Great Depression; his generous tax breaks for the rich, and job losses under his two terms in office that were the worst on record since World War II. The ugliness, as you like to frame it comes from anyone who has the unmitigated gall to blame the guy who is attempting to extinguish the fire as the arsonist who started it; but true to the talking points of the republican party, deny the truth and embrace the lie.

See below weblind for a little history on Thailand's previous experiment with capital controls on equity, bonds, and currency. The BIG investors didn't like the controls and generally found ways around them. For the common man in terms of wiring over money to live on, buy a house, buy a car, etc., it was basically a non-event although there were a few stories where people would be sending over a large sum of money to buy a house, etc., and the receiving bank would only initially release 70% of the money sent and put the other 30% in a special account until you clearly showed what the money was being sent over for. Summary: impacted LARGE investors; didn't really impact the everyday expat living in Thailand other than a better exchange rate "for a while"....then the capital controls pretty much faded away.

http://www.atimes.co...a/JC06Ae02.html

Thanks for the link. I knew they had a previous scheme, but I could not recall exactly what it was, but I knew it had been eliminated. It will be interesting to see where this one goes if they go forward with it, but the whole idea still makes no sense to me!

^ I can't contend what you say either, except to possibly suggest these tax measures could be a way for the slow down what the government percieve as an overheating economy (?).

I am surprised someone hasn't replied already with their knowledge of previously imposed tax rates and thresholds.

I mentioned it briefly in my post!

I'm no economist, either, but the Thai government uses the word "scheme" a lot, and I tend to associate that word with a deception or a ploy. There seem to be a lot of mouths at work here. One says the government has a USD 21.6 billion dollar surplus and has built up USD 55 billion dollars in reserves over the last three years, but it's borrowing USD 3.3 billion to "stimulate" the economy." Isn't the economy already stimulated with all that surplus and reserve money? The SET 50 index fund is up by about 7.72 points and the SET 100 index fund is up 16.03 points, primarily because of what has been described as foreign investment. So if the economy is being supported by foreign investment, why then does it become necessary to tax new foreign capital inflows that would continue to strengthen the economy? In the English lexicon we call that, "icing on the cake." I could understand it if there was instability or volatility in the market as a direct result of short term investments, but there is not a single indicator that presumes that to be true, so it seems to be that imposing a penalty for short term investments becomes nothing more than a deterrent irregardless of an investors intentions to invest on a short or long terms basis (the market determines that aspect of investment); and, if my memory serves me well, it was a big enough deterrnet the last time this scheme was imposed that it became the reason why the imposition of a tax penalty was lifted to begin with. So it seems to be the same logic that says tourism and exports are up, so lets appreciate the baht so tourist can spend less money while world markets shop below the Malaysian and Thailand currency appreciation line, and do it while the major economies around the world are in a recession, when more people and industry are watching their bottom line and looking for ways to make their money work more effectively. I don't know about everyone else, but if business is good, I don't have a tendency towards sabotaging a positive cash flow. Can someone talk me down?

Abhisit is starting to sound like a clown with his pathetic excuses and inability to take responsibility.

And when are the Red Shirts going to take responsibility for burning down our city? It's so hypocritical of Pheu Thai to attack the Prime Minister when one of their own was right out there inciting the riots.

Most of the 80 killed were killed trying to violently overthrow the government. Just because they call themselves 'peaceful protesters' doesn't make it so. They got what was coming to them.

If it's "your city," then I guess it is "your country" too! And by "one of their own" do you mean a separate class of citizenry or something perhaps, less? And if one person acts indifferently, then everyone else within their party should be considered guilty by association and therefore relinquish their right to criticize, or "attack" as you put it, the Prime Minister?

The 80 people who were killed, I believe that number included the women who was killed in Silom, a nurse, two emergency responders, two journalist and others who were unarmed; so, were they trying to "violently" overthrow the government? Did they all get what was coming to them?

It sounds to me like you are suffering from a severe case of elitism that has diminished your ability to be objective. How sad you are.

One of their own meaning a Pheu Thai MP, ie Jatuporn. If your English sucks and you don't understand what I'm writing, do yourself a favor and ask for a clarification rather looking like an idiot trying to put words in my mouth. And don't try to tell us that Jatuporn was a 'peaceful protest leader' either. We all know otherwise.

And yes, I did say MOST of the 80 killed didn't I? The ones not included in the 'most' are the medics and reporters killed. As for the others, they got what was coming to them. Their comrades in arms had rifles and grenade launchers and they also knew a crackdown was coming. It's not like the government didn't give them a chance to leave. They were there by choice trying to overthrow the government. If they died, they died.

You call me an elitist. Of course, you would call me that. It's to be expected from a Red shit. I mean I must be a Bangkok elite if I don't support them right?

I have an excellent understanding of the English language, however your elitism resonates loud and clear. Telling me my English sucks, That I'm an idiot and a Red "Shit" supporter only demonstrates your arrogance towards other people and your lack of spelling skills . Your use of the word "most", within the context of the English language refers to the majority...look it up:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most

It's pretty convenient to use a generic context without providing substantive facts to make a valid point, which is yet another aspect of the English language that is used to bridge words into complete sentences. I for one have a great regard for life and I do not chose to be so caviler in the loss of any life, and I especially hold a reverence for the loss of innocent lives. I take no position one way or the other for red, yellow, green or whatever, and I never said I did. I simply pointed out what I believed to be your lack of sensitivity towards other human beings, and all you did was validate what I believed to be true!

Abhisit is starting to sound like a clown with his pathetic excuses and inability to take responsibility.

And when are the Red Shirts going to take responsibility for burning down our city? It's so hypocritical of Pheu Thai to attack the Prime Minister when one of their own was right out there inciting the riots.

Most of the 80 killed were killed trying to violently overthrow the government. Just because they call themselves 'peaceful protesters' doesn't make it so. They got what was coming to them.

If it's "your city," then I guess it is "your country" too! And by "one of their own" do you mean a separate class of citizenry or something perhaps, less? And if one person acts indifferently, then everyone else within their party should be considered guilty by association and therefore relinquish their right to criticize, or "attack" as you put it, the Prime Minister?

The 80 people who were killed, I believe that number included the women who was killed in Silom, a nurse, two emergency responders, two journalist and others who were unarmed; so, were they trying to "violently" overthrow the government? Did they all get what was coming to them?

It sounds to me like you are suffering from a severe case of elitism that has diminished your ability to be objective. How sad you are.

Am- nasty - International - bunch of pencil neck self serving servants and do-good oxygen bandits trying to justify their enormous drain on donated funds and handouts for themselves. Maybe we can offer them to the reds as human shields!

You really need to grow up. Who are they servants to? How do they drain funds enormously, and how much do they give to themselves? And, why would you offer any human being as a human shield and then call someone else self serving? Seems like you used up a lot of oxygen with a post that scores zero on the substance meter!

Wouldn't this forum be more educational and on a higher plane if many took their fingers off their keyboards, took a deep breath and after much thought produced sensible answers?

O.K., you start!

Please be mindful that there is nothing to be gained by saying negative stuff towards a dead man. You are better to say nothing at all than something spiteful.

Condolences to his family. Condolences to all those who have died so unnecessarily & for reasons that could of been sorted out by other means.

Sad times for Thailand.

Well said. Some people here seem to lack enough humanity to be compassionate, and speaking ill of the dead is irreverent and really reduces some of the people here to the same level they accuse the general of having taken. It is sad when killing people is a solution instead of a problem. It breaks my heart to see so many people dying.

Government shouldn't and can't turn back!!

Letting these looneys have another go to create chaos and anarchy in the future whould be a big mistake as then the armed fight will continue for years to come.

They must eliminate these rotten elements as soon as posible to reduce our society from slipping into further chaos.

There are no innocent bystanders in this picture, if you were innocent then why try to cover your face, drive on your motorcycle(taxi) around with bottles filled of gasoline, bringing tyres to the fire, trowing rocks and use guns to armed forces.

If that's what people call innocent and the media like BBC and CNN brush this off just as little teasing of the troops there should not be any UN-tribunal in the last 60 years cause then nothing has happened in this world.

There was no Rwanda,no sierra leone, blood diamands are just a lie,no iddi amin,no zimbabwe,no south-africa( the Dutch did not create Apartheid, you even can't find it in any dictionary), nothing happened in Argentina,Chili,Cuba,Vietnam,laos,burma,cambodia, etc. Allcountries where elements like Thaksin,Chavalit and their clan where the cause of the problem.

But now they do not own the regular army so they let uneducated,unknowing people be their paid army to fight for their assets.

sorry for not stating an opinion in this comment.

sorry for just giving undeniable facts

Have a nice Sunday in Montenegro Thaksin, enjoy Cumming Chavalit, buy somthing nice in Singapora Potjaman, and please do not turn in your grave dear Marcos!!

I find people such as yourself contributing to the problem. How do words like "looneys," "rotten elements," "uneducated, unknowing people," help the people you are describing find solutions to this tragedy? and how do ideas that have a summary solution; whereas you say, "you can't turn back...they must eliminate these...as soon as possible" prevent people from trusting others intentions? Many of the military are made up of the very people you say are uneducated and unknowing. All armies are used to protect assets, so irregardless of what examples you site about civil discord in the past, we are all dealing with the present. Insults predicated on arrogance is not the way any of us can rise above this ordeal. Killing fields and your idea of social genocide is not a solution. There is enough special interest on both sides of the equation, so everyone would be better served by setting aside their egos long enough to hopefully sit back down with an impartial mediator who can at least attempt to resolve this living tragedy. Let's not pretend to know what everyone is feeling; let's not pretend to know what each side really wants; let's not pretend to know how to end this confrontation, and lets not use language that is divisive and incendiary, because it serves no purpose here or anyplace else in the world. If we have anything to say, and we all do, that is part of our human nature to want to speak out, and to be heard, then let's deal with this from the side of our humanity that allows us to be compassionate, that allows us to be civil, and allows us to seek solutions through compromise. I live here too, and I find this entire situation to be upsetting, and I blow off steam just like I am sure so many of us here do; but, when I write, I write after I have calmed down so I can find my logical side and write from my heart instead of my brain. My families preacher always made the point every Sunday after each sermon to remind everyone if they had something nice to say, to please share their thoughts with him, and if they had something bad to say, to just shake his hand because it was a lot more comforting then watching someone shake their fist! Please chose your words carefully!

For you is easy, you can pick up your bags and leave our country.

Me where can I go???

You're country gives my family a new life??

I was in the Army as well and I know what the soldiers must feel, and so do the rest of Thai people, so why they want to commit violence against their own army and not listen to law??

Would your country allow protesters to shoot and then just say " aah naughty little boys please do not do this again!!

do not think so!!

before my family supported the TRT but since the truth about them has come out we support Thailand as a country and respect the law, but they not even know the law and for last few governments have refused (same as police) to implement the law, so people up country not know law or not care the law.

You thikn that good??

No one was suggesting leaving to go anywhere. My country has its own problems, but if you want a new life in a different country, it's never out of the question, but there are no free passes in this world. I was in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, so I have an idea about how the soldiers must feel, it's not an easy situation to be in. What my country would have done in this situation is not material, my country is not currently experiencing a widespread government protest. I don't think any of this is good, and I never suggested that it was. I can see you are quite angry and I can certainly appreciate that emotions in this situation are very high at this time, which is even more reason to find solutions that are not based upon anger, but are based upon our ability to find peaceful solutions. There is an old saying that violence begets violence, which means violence will always be met with violence, so where does it end? I could have called you a lot of names when I wrote my post, but I chose to just make observations and rationalize them with an honest plea to please choose your words carefully and to try and understand where your emotions are coming from. I genuinely understand your contempt, and I appreciate the fact that you are angry, because no one who loves their country wants to see it split into factions of violence. I love Thailand too as my adopted country of choice. I want to see this end just as quickly as anyone else, but in a way that will end the violence without using violence to try and end it.

Government shouldn't and can't turn back!!

Letting these looneys have another go to create chaos and anarchy in the future whould be a big mistake as then the armed fight will continue for years to come.

They must eliminate these rotten elements as soon as posible to reduce our society from slipping into further chaos.

There are no innocent bystanders in this picture, if you were innocent then why try to cover your face, drive on your motorcycle(taxi) around with bottles filled of gasoline, bringing tyres to the fire, trowing rocks and use guns to armed forces.

If that's what people call innocent and the media like BBC and CNN brush this off just as little teasing of the troops there should not be any UN-tribunal in the last 60 years cause then nothing has happened in this world.

There was no Rwanda,no sierra leone, blood diamands are just a lie,no iddi amin,no zimbabwe,no south-africa( the Dutch did not create Apartheid, you even can't find it in any dictionary), nothing happened in Argentina,Chili,Cuba,Vietnam,laos,burma,cambodia, etc. Allcountries where elements like Thaksin,Chavalit and their clan where the cause of the problem.

But now they do not own the regular army so they let uneducated,unknowing people be their paid army to fight for their assets.

sorry for not stating an opinion in this comment.

sorry for just giving undeniable facts

Have a nice Sunday in Montenegro Thaksin, enjoy Cumming Chavalit, buy somthing nice in Singapora Potjaman, and please do not turn in your grave dear Marcos!!

I find people such as yourself contributing to the problem. How do words like "looneys," "rotten elements," "uneducated, unknowing people," help the people you are describing find solutions to this tragedy? and how do ideas that have a summary solution; whereas you say, "you can't turn back...they must eliminate these...as soon as possible" prevent people from trusting others intentions? Many of the military are made up of the very people you say are uneducated and unknowing. All armies are used to protect assets, so irregardless of what examples you site about civil discord in the past, we are all dealing with the present. Insults predicated on arrogance is not the way any of us can rise above this ordeal. Killing fields and your idea of social genocide is not a solution. There is enough special interest on both sides of the equation, so everyone would be better served by setting aside their egos long enough to hopefully sit back down with an impartial mediator who can at least attempt to resolve this living tragedy. Let's not pretend to know what everyone is feeling; let's not pretend to know what each side really wants; let's not pretend to know how to end this confrontation, and lets not use language that is divisive and incendiary, because it serves no purpose here or anyplace else in the world. If we have anything to say, and we all do, that is part of our human nature to want to speak out, and to be heard, then let's deal with this from the side of our humanity that allows us to be compassionate, that allows us to be civil, and allows us to seek solutions through compromise. I live here too, and I find this entire situation to be upsetting, and I blow off steam just like I am sure so many of us here do; but, when I write, I write after I have calmed down so I can find my logical side and write from my heart instead of my brain. My families preacher always made the point every Sunday after each sermon to remind everyone if they had something nice to say, to please share their thoughts with him, and if they had something bad to say, to just shake his hand because it was a lot more comforting then watching someone shake their fist! Please chose your words carefully!

i'm sure there will be a lot of 'armchair general' farangs happy that the army are just shooting unarmed people!

Have a look at this picture. Can anybody see a just reason for killing this person??

http://image.ohozaa.com/is/28931_397050999...3_2895502_n.jpg

Please don't make assumptions. Just because he wasn't wear red doesn't mean he's not red. And how do you know he didn't try to throw a grenade.

At least the reds are showing some kind of intelligence by not wearing red anymore...if you wear red, you are shot on site.

I don't condone violence but I also don't condone the undemocratic activities of the reds.. nothing more than brute thugs. Anybody that is smart and non-red are all staying home or at least out of the protest areas.

Or maybe he was being interviewed by a reporter!

Interesting how Seh Dang was being interviewed by International Herald Tribune when he was shot. If I'm not mistaken, this is the paper that had ties with Sondhi Limthongkul as distributor of his ThaiDay. A set-up with the cooperation of the yellow shirt leader? What a message to send to his nemesis, Thaksin.

Seh Dang? 'Say' no more.

Please check your facts. He was being interviewed by Thomas Fuller of The New York Times when he was shot. Mr. Fuller stayed behind after other reporters walked away so he could ask Seh Dang a few more questions.

haha burn baby burn 1 down....

...not many left now!

That's not even at Rajarpasong you dunce. This pic is from the route between democracy monument and Phan Fa bridge, and was taken when the Reds were doing their marches round the city weeks ago.

Redparrot...you really are!

I find you to be incredibly insulting and arrogant. All you needed to do was to point out the details of the picture. This is a good example of how incivility creates dissension amongst people, so please tell me if you would like it if someone said the same thing to you? I doubt it. Play nice!

She knew what she was getting into. Tough luck... Hang her! I certainly do not feel sorry for her.

And how is it you know so much about this person that you would actually know what she knew about the consequences of her actions? It's sad to think that one can so easily dismiss things like mitigating circumstances, and other forms of evidence that might actually exonerate this person. I doubt any of us would want anyone to be so caviler in casting judgments against us in similar circumstances. I don't know that she needs your sympathy, but campassion is certainly a much more admirable trait than retribution. I actually kind of feel sorry for you!