phuketlen

tricky one. In general occupant in page 2 is Master of House, but there could of course be a code I have missed. Thinking of it, when swapping in GF Isarn Tabien Baan, they did not print a new one but stamped and signed for mum to step down and GF to be Master of House, but she is still in page 3 as Master of House. So there must be a code

On the other hand a friend let another friends wife register in his Tabien Baan in page 2, later he got married, and wanted wife to be Master of House. Complicated, as Amphur had to issue new Tabien Baan to get resident moved to page 3 as resident, not master of House.

Obvioulsy I do not know all about this subject, thus keep my Tabien Baans clear

For an owner, in general it takes 6 months to get residents (including master of House) deleted from Tabien Baan. Not all buyers want to buy with residents, not all want to wait 6 months.

After transfer of land title/deleting of lease, removing residents can be done quickly tho

oh god...sorry but none of this matters to ownership of building or even "residents" in a house book.

what law says a building permit or a house book has ANYthing to do with LEGAL ownership of the building? What law? YES this IS "rehtorical" because neither you nor your lawyer nor the "6000" posters on this forum can answer that...for some reason

yep

a building permit for a +300sqm house is typical 40 A3 pages, and when the building is completed according to this permit, Tabien Baan can be applied for, building inspected and Tabien Baan issued.

Supported by the previous mentioned documents (buildingpermit and proof of payment for build), one can now apply land office for building to be owned separate from land, and registered as such. Foreigner, Thai national or company, for instance many banks own buildings for branches on leased land. Same teaspoon all over the country, as long as it is an area requiring buildingpermit and land title is NS3G or Chanote

Refering to laws as I have done previously in this topic apparently does not work with Phuketlen, as when done he still ignores them

Actually, I have not ignored your reference to the Civil and Commericial Code and the law of superficies. I agree that is the way one owns a house on land owned by someone else, legally. NOW you tell me what law gives you any legal rights of ownership, whatsoever, in a building, because you have the building permit...simple, what law?

Tabien Baan can have Thai nationals and PRforeigners registered as residents, but there is no requirement to register any resident in Tabien Baan. When Tabien Baan has registered residents, 1st resident becomes Master of House, and decides who can reside on property, and MoH must accept by signing whenever Tabien Baan is needed

Tabien Baan on untitled/lower title than NS3G/Chanote land, when upgrading to Chanote title, Chanote will in general and unless other info provided, be issued to first resident in Tabien Baan, called Master of House. Just made a swap in an Isarn Tabien Baan to ensure my GF becomes the registered owner of Chanote in a few months

That's very interesting KBB. My wife has property with Tabian Baan where she is not registered (cos she is registered at another property), yet she has allowed tenants to register on that TB (allows their kids to go to local school). By your reasoning that first resident on Tabian Baan has a number of rights. Mmmm ... my wife argues that she only signs the document to say they are only 'living' there and have no rights. It's a very tricky theme and generalisations are not necessarily the rule.

You wife is correct. And, if anyone tells you different, tell them to show you the law that says they have any legal rights. Always make them and your lawyers here show you the law...do not just believe it because its on webforum, if it matters to you verify and your so called lawyer should be able to always easily so you what law supports/proves what they say.

First of all Tabien Baan is Government acknowledge of a building, and in those areas buildingpermit is required, a building according to buildingpermit. It states how many storeys the building is, buildingpermit states how many sqm approved. This info is used on registering separate ownership of building from land, and it is used on every transfer of land/building to determine transfertaxes. Tabien Baan provides house with an adress/house number and an additional ID number. Needed to get permanent PEA supply and other utilities

Tabien Baan can have Thai nationals and PRforeigners registered as residents, but there is no requirement to register any resident in Tabien Baan. When Tabien Baan has registered residents, 1st resident becomes Master of House, and decides who can reside on property, and MoH must accept by signing whenever Tabien Baan is needed

Tabien Baan on untitled/lower title than NS3G/Chanote land, when upgrading to Chanote title, Chanote will in general and unless other info provided, be issued to first resident in Tabien Baan, called Master of House. Just made a swap in an Isarn Tabien Baan to ensure my GF becomes the registered owner of Chanote in a few months

Fascinating...so you seem to believe that the TB is a title of ownership or something like and you "swapped" it to "ensure" your girlfriend becomes the regiserted owner...of...what?...wait, the land deed? I am sorry but can you explain that? and and can you please explain what law makes the TB give anyone ownership over the building?

Hem...wait I thought a Tabiaan Baan cannot be issued with out a legal building permit??? Correct?

Sure the Tabian Baan cannot, or at least is not supposed tot be issued until the structure has reached a certain stage of completion. But why do you assume that that is equivalent to "proof of completion"? Do you even know what a Tabian Baan acutally is, legally?

Ok, I'll continue to play along with your game. If you'll note I said that by default it's helps prove completion (to the Tesiban's satisfaction). In reality that mean little more than wall and roof complete and toilets connected and flush, but the main thing is that planning permission was granted. A Tabian Baan will not be issued if no planning permission granted. My understanding is that the Tabian Baan is a document where Thai nationals register their official address/residence at a government recognised address/location.

pretty much correct. so, legally it does establish ownership. BTW I am not playing a game, I AM helping you all out.

It states quite clearly (in Thai) on line 3 (can be any page from page 2, page 1 is property details) after the long ID number of the registered person, then its says position, either 'master of house' or 'living'. I have just dug out all our many TB books and had my wife translate. Have a look at your book KBB.

There does not appear to be any information about who owns the land or property in the TB. That's on the land document.

great, today i have learned how to separate Master of House from ordinary residents. Does this indicate a Tabien Baan does not need to have a Master of House?

Tabien Baan does not in any way indicate ownership, of land or house, but despite this separate house ownership is registered in tabien baan info at tessabaan/amphur

emmm...no, house ownership is NOT registered at the Tetsabaan.

But look above, its good to look, question the documents AND the law...what the law tells you the Tetsabaan registers or even gives you ownership of your house??...what law? If it is legal, then there MUST be a law that says that your lawyer or the forum here that you trust so well must be able to tell us. I await the reply and will be right here ready to be corrected by your said lawyer/forum....what law?

tricky one. In general occupant in page 2 is Master of House, but there could of course be a code I have missed. Thinking of it, when swapping in GF Isarn Tabien Baan, they did not print a new one but stamped and signed for mum to step down and GF to be Master of House, but she is still in page 3 as Master of House. So there must be a code

On the other hand a friend let another friends wife register in his Tabien Baan in page 2, later he got married, and wanted wife to be Master of House. Complicated, as Amphur had to issue new Tabien Baan to get resident moved to page 3 as resident, not master of House.

Obvioulsy I do not know all about this subject, thus keep my Tabien Baans clear

It states quite clearly (in Thai) on line 3 (can be any page from page 2, page 1 is property details) after the long ID number of the registered person, then its says position, either 'master of house' or 'living'. I have just dug out all our many TB books and had my wife translate. Have a look at your book KBB.

There does not appear to be any information about who owns the land or property in the TB. That's on the land document.

WAIT...I thought you said it is in the building permit....??? But good to see you now understand that the TB has nothing to do with legal ownership of the house...dare you question the building permission??

Simple question Phuketlen... Why should anyone believe a word you type when all you are saying is, "I know better that you, na-na-na-na-boo-boo", with coy, vague responses to reasonable put questions and statements? I particularly liked the early post when implied you know more/better than most Thai lawyers.

I have not asked anyone to believe me mike, I have only asked them to: 1) question their own assumptions/advice and 2) simply tell me what law supports their assumption/belief. If I do NOT know "better" then Thai lawyers, I am ready to admit that here, but first, someone needs to tell me what law supports what they all are saying is legal. What law says a building permit gives you ANY legal ownership rights over a building? Simple question. And if you think I do not know better than most of the Thai lawyers, please, bring them here for us all to discuss and we shall see, I most welcome that.

Now, what law provides that a building permit gives anyone any legal rights of ownership over the building?

...now I know what it must have been like to realize that the world is not flat and try to tell others...

<snip> Second, Tabian Baan is not "proof of completion" nor "approval issued" nothing whatsoever to do with that, but if I am wrong, quote me the law that supports what you say, if it legally does what you say, a law will say that.

The Tabian Baan will NOT be issued until until the building is completed as per the approved plans to the satisfaction of the local planing office. Therefore by default the Tabian Ban does confirm "proof of completion" and "approval issued". I say this with my own first hand personal experience with both the Karon and Patong Tesibans.

Sure the Tabian Baan cannot, or at least is not supposed tot be issued until the structure has reached a certain stage of completion. But why do you assume that that is equivalent to "proof of completion"? Do you even know what a Tabian Baan acutally is, legally?

PPC, August 2004. Clear win, as house ownership registered in land office and tessabaan, separate from land ownership. Thai land owner did not appeal, and chose in addition to transfer ownership of land to my co ltd for a symbolic fee.

With all due respect, your point is?...and please do tell us how what you say proves that a building permit = legal ownership of a building. Once again, if you or your "lawyer" cannot show it in the law, it is NOT legal. Now that is pretty simple, is it not?

It still is not.

Buildingpermit is the start to become legal owner of a structure. Next step is to pay for structure and actually build it. Next step is to have proof of completion and approval issued, Tabien Baan. Last step is to have the ownership of structure registered at land office separate from land ownership.

Now you may be ready for PPC (Phuket Provincal Court) if required, as you have been fed with the most tiny teaspoon ever

Now that is pretty simple, is it not?

First, there is no such thing as "start to become legal owner". That is not how the law works, you either are the legal owner or you are not.

Second, Tabian Baan is not "proof of completion" nor "approval issued" nothing whatsoever to do with that, but if I am wrong, quote me the law that supports what you say, if it legally does what you say, a law will say that.

"Last step", you are starting to get close there, but are you so sure you do that "last step"? hemmm...I wonder, if the building is already there, who then owns it? I will teaspoon you there a bit, the land owner...and guess what, you can not legally separate the house then, legally you can only then transfer it.

This guy is pure troll Who do I believe more? 2 posters with 6,000+ posts who give information about proof of building ownership that I also believe to be true, or a newbie with 84 posts who simply throws back questions that are asked of him and never presents any concrete information.

He'll probably be offering a paid seminar to explain to us all how we have been doing it all wrong and how we can use his services to put it right...

Cue the ignore button

Simon

Simple question Simon, what law makes you owner of the building because you have you name in the building permit. Please ask all your posters and lawyers. Remember, my point his is not to teach you all the truth about building ownership but to show you all your posts and posters and "lawyers" do not know what they are talking about when they tell you having your name in the building permit makes you legal owner of the building in any way whatsoever. So...what law? And, BTW, to those of you have enough of a brain to understand that if a building permit makes you legal owner of a building, in any way, a law or laws must say that somewhere, you all are welcome.

PPC, August 2004. Clear win, as house ownership registered in land office and tessabaan, separate from land ownership. Thai land owner did not appeal, and chose in addition to transfer ownership of land to my co ltd for a symbolic fee.

With all due respect, your point is?...and please do tell us how what you say proves that a building permit = legal ownership of a building. Once again, if you or your "lawyer" cannot show it in the law, it is NOT legal. Now that is pretty simple, is it not?

Excellent, now, finally, we are talking about law.

I do not believe I ever said a thing about "illegal".

I am not lazy, I just do not need your "realestate/law" forum...I just go to the law, thanks.

Now, back to the main point, you have referred us all to section 1410 of the Thai civil and commercial code. First of all, can you tell us how that supports the idea that the building permit makes you legal owner of your building?

It does not

Section 1410 in chapter III, book IV allows building and land to have separate owners. How to get there, to have land office register buildings ownership separate from land ownership and have this registration duplicated to tessabaans files, is previously described in this topic.

If you "just go to the law", you miss a lot. The practical way to obtain what law grants you, is not described in laws

very interesting. so now you think you have a legal ownership...which is not in "the laws". guess what, that does not work, not legally. good luck in court with that.

according to karon tessabaan I was the first one to do it, and it took an advicing letter from central bkk government for them to accept it

end of disussion for me, advice given, up to anyone to take advantage of it if desired to be owner of a structure on land owned by someone else like co ltd or thai national

I am sorry, but what law did they tell you that? They are wrong, so are you, unfortunately...and I am correct. Sorry, it may just be that those lawyers and tessaban officials really do not understand the law...possible???

Tessabaan has never told me any law, I have presented to them what laws they must follow, and as said to lazy to look them up and easily available in ThaiVisa Real Estate Forum

your posts in this topic are most confusing, as you still have not presented any experience, facts, laws or court rulings, so its hard to get what you are "correct" about

fact is that I am registered owner in tessabaan and land office of structures in several provinces in this country, and land belongs to thai co ltd or thai national, and this is a solution easily available for any ThaiVisa reader by a simple readup in Real Estate Forum

Excellent, you presented them what laws? Please tell us, I mean the law that make you the owner of a building. You did it all over Thailand and you say its easy to look up.

If you are so certain that you actually legally own a structure in Thailand, then clearly you can tell us what law proves that, right?

IF you are a legal owner, it MUST be based on and come directly from a law(s)...what law(s), YOU are so certain, so WHAT law(s)? Very simple question.

If YOU are to lazy to follow advice in this topic to look it up here in ThaiVisa Real Estate Forum, I am sure just as lazy to look it up for you.

Edit. ok,ok, ok always at your service, this time with a tea spoon

one single click in above Forum found: Section 1410 in chapter III, book VI

still to lazy to look up my own dusty files tho

if I build again, it will be apartments/highrise on small land. Registering rights of use on land belonging to co ltd or thai national is inexpensive and bulletproof.

making sure I become the registered owner of building, reduces taxes/costs on securing ownership/control, reduces taxes on income from building, and directs later sales income from building directly to me

Now you might want to tell us why you consider it illegal and what makes you "correct"?

Excellent, now, finally, we are talking about law.

I do not believe I ever said a thing about "illegal".

I am not lazy, I just do not need your "realestate/law" forum...I just go to the law, thanks.

Now, back to the main point, you have referred us all to section 1410 of the Thai civil and commercial code. First of all, can you tell us how that supports the idea that the building permit makes you legal owner of your building?

hehehe

according to karon tessabaan I was the first one to do it, and it took an advicing letter from central bkk government for them to accept it

end of disussion for me, advice given, up to anyone to take advantage of it if desired to be owner of a structure on land owned by someone else like co ltd or thai national

I am sorry, but what law did they tell you that? They are wrong, so are you, unfortunately...and I am correct. Sorry, it may just be that those lawyers and tessaban officials really do not understand the law...possible???

Tessabaan has never told me any law, I have presented to them what laws they must follow, and as said to lazy to look them up and easily available in ThaiVisa Real Estate Forum

your posts in this topic are most confusing, as you still have not presented any experience, facts, laws or court rulings, so its hard to get what you are "correct" about

fact is that I am registered owner in tessabaan and land office of structures in several provinces in this country, and land belongs to thai co ltd or thai national, and this is a solution easily available for any ThaiVisa reader by a simple readup in Real Estate Forum

Excellent, you presented them what laws? Please tell us, I mean the law that make you the owner of a building. You did it all over Thailand and you say its easy to look up.

If you are so certain that you actually legally own a structure in Thailand, then clearly you can tell us what law proves that, right?

IF you are a legal owner, it MUST be based on and come directly from a law(s)...what law(s), YOU are so certain, so WHAT law(s)? Very simple question.

Obviously they're all wrong and phuketlen is right. I can't wait for the ebook to come out which delves into "Proper ownership structure and the law in Thailand for dummies".

No, I guess I must admit I am wrong. My apologies. After all, if a bunch a people say it, especially if a bunch of people who post a lot on a web forum, and more especially that post on web forum who's "legal" thread says it...it must be true. What was I thinking asking for the actual law??? We are humans and I should have just realized that if a bunch of people say something then that is the truth., obviously. Okay there was the "world is flat" thing...emmmm

It's a strange thing about facts and law in our world, we can evade them, unintentionally or intentionally...until they matter, then bascially no one can.

Anyway nevermind, I am sure that if katabeachbum or Livinginlos or those of you who believe "that is how it works" are ever in a Thai court over your legal rights to your home, you will have a lawyer who understands what a bunch of people believe and they can tell the judge that the judge should agree with that because a bunch of people believe that. A

And if they do not please just remember to show your lawyer the said forum's legal page comments on that...I am sure the judge will be duly impressed.

No offense, but no doubt you have not "done that" without competent legal advice becuause legally, in reality, you are completely incorrect.

hehehe

according to karon tessabaan I was the first one to do it, and it took an advicing letter from central bkk government for them to accept it

end of disussion for me, advice given, up to anyone to take advantage of it if desired to be owner of a structure on land owned by someone else like co ltd or thai national

I am sorry, but what law did they tell you that? They are wrong, so are you, unfortunately...and I am correct. Sorry, it may just be that those lawyers and tessaban officials really do not understand the law...possible???

You are correct. I do, apparently, have a different opinion on this. But why can't you just ask your lawyer what I laid out above? I think that is pretty simple is it not? Ask your lawyer to show you the law(s) that support what your lawyer told you...why would you ask me for that?

I am also sorry a bit to say it, but we need to evolve a bit and quit thinking that someone I met on the barstool who has been here for some x years or someone who I have met who is Thai and even a Thai "lawyer" so the must know Thai law...if I just tell you what you want to know, no one gains

well in reality you can become the owner of a structure without owning the land its build on by applying for a buildingpermit in your name, have it build for your funds, have tabien baan issued and register your ownership at land office, and the registration duplicets in tessabaans files. one owner for land, one for structure

want law codes, post in property forum, cause I dont recall them all, but have done above a few times, without involvement of any lawyer.

it all starts with land owner accepting buildinpermit issued in your name, or existing buildingpermit transferred to you before completion/tabien baan

Exactly the outline my lawyer explained on how to separate the two.. Thanks..

Poster seems to have a different view, but refuses to say why, or what backs up his view.. Kind of hard to have a discussion when its all too secret and hush hush to mention.

Yet you are unwilliing to ask your "lawyer" to show you the law that supports said "outline"? Sorry but I am not going to spoon feed you on this and besides my main point has not been to educate you on how to own the building letgally but to show you and anyone else reading who cares just how poor your legal "advice" has been on this issue and likely in many other cases. I can successfully only make that point, if you go ask you lawyer to show the laws they say supports their claim and also what law actually does provide for legal ownership of a building. In my humble opinion, if I am correct in my main point and you (and any others reading this) come to realize that, I have done you a fairly good turn. If on the other hand you chose to keep your eyes closed and simply trust your lawyer's advice without making them show you the law they are advisign you on, they I guess there really is nothing to discuss and I can only say, "good luck with that."

You are correct. I do, apparently, have a different opinion on this. But why can't you just ask your lawyer what I laid out above? I think that is pretty simple is it not? Ask your lawyer to show you the law(s) that support what your lawyer told you...why would you ask me for that?

I am also sorry a bit to say it, but we need to evolve a bit and quit thinking that someone I met on the barstool who has been here for some x years or someone who I have met who is Thai and even a Thai "lawyer" so the must know Thai law...if I just tell you what you want to know, no one gains

well in reality you can become the owner of a structure without owning the land its build on by applying for a buildingpermit in your name, have it build for your funds, have tabien baan issued and register your ownership at land office, and the registration duplicets in tessabaans files. one owner for land, one for structure

want law codes, post in property forum, cause I dont recall them all, but have done above a few times, without involvement of any lawyer.

it all starts with land owner accepting buildinpermit issued in your name, or existing buildingpermit transferred to you before completion/tabien baan

No offense, but no doubt you have not "done that" without competent legal advice becuause legally, in reality, you are completely incorrect.

You are correct. I do, apparently, have a different opinion on this. But why can't you just ask your lawyer what I laid out above? I think that is pretty simple is it not? Ask your lawyer to show you the law(s) that support what your lawyer told you...why would you ask me for that?

I am also sorry a bit to say it, but we need to evolve a bit and quit thinking that someone I met on the barstool who has been here for some x years or someone who I have met who is Thai and even a Thai "lawyer" so the must know Thai law...if I just tell you what you want to know, no one gains

As they say, sometimes fact is stranger than fiction. And what may sound even more strange to most is that surprisingly few lawyers here know Thai law very well [including BTW the Thai lawyers]. But if that does indeed sound too strange to believe, then I would take this opportunity to illustrate my point to you by suggesting that you simply ask your lawyer to show you the law that provides that a building permit establishes legal ownership of a building in any way. And then when he cannot provide that, ask him what laws do establish legal ownership of a building, because there are such specific laws, just not laws that has anything to do with a buiding permit.

My lawyer (who I feel is very competent) addressed that while explaining how the house tabien baan was not an indicator of ownership.

Now I am paraphrasing and going from memory of a few months back, and I am not at the build stage yet so this was not vital info I had to be sure on, just a discussion. But she explained that the ownership of the structure, as separate and distinct from the ownership of the land, was achieved via a collection of facts not one single point. Effectively by showing that I was the person who commissioned the building (obtained the building permit) and I was the person who paid for the structure to be built (via payments to the builder and any and all materials) that it was this collection of evidence (I ordered it, I paid for it, I paid for the materials that it was created from) which established ownership.

Now as I say, this was just a discussion and I am not at the stage where this is important to me, so it wasnt being quizzed from all angles, more mentioned in passing. But that was the impression I had from the conversation.

Whats wrong about that, as it will become important in the next year or so.

I can only basically repeat what I said. Your lawyer is not correct. Ask her to show you the law that says a building permit and tabian baan legally "acheives" ownership of the house...in any way, "collectively" or otherwise. But and again, there is a way of doing that, under Thai law, so ask her that. And I would reply to you, what is wrong about THAT? i.e. asking your lawyer to show the law that supports what they assert and what they advise you on? If she cannot tell you, I think you should perhaps re-evaluate your confidence in said competence and find a lawyer that is, not easy in Thailand.

having your name on a buildingpermit is an opportunity to become the legal owner of the building, thus my suggestion to check who is the registered owner of the building in question. It does not need to be the land owner, as buildingpermit has been issued to someone else as authorised by land owner. Just need to pop the question and show Tabien Baan at land office or tessabaan

Also totally incorrect. The building permit has nothing to do whatsoever with the legal ownership of the building.

Strange as my lawyer clearly stated that having the building permit in my name was desirable for exactly this reason.. That building permit, and proof of source of funds that pays for the building, were 2 powerful parts leading to the establishment of ownership of the structure as separate and distinct from the land.

As they say, sometimes fact is stranger than fiction. And what may sound even more strange to most is that surprisingly few lawyers here know Thai law very well [including BTW the Thai lawyers]. But if that does indeed sound too strange to believe, then I would take this opportunity to illustrate my point to you by suggesting that you simply ask your lawyer to show you the law that provides that a building permit establishes legal ownership of a building in any way. And then when he cannot provide that, ask him what laws do establish legal ownership of a building, because there are such specific laws, just not laws that has anything to do with a buiding permit.

at least you can go to the Land Deprtament or local Tessabaan to find out who owns the building today. If buildingermit has been issued to your builder, he may be the registered owner of the building

Completely inocorrect. The person on the building permit is NOT the legal owner of the building.

having your name on a buildingpermit is an opportunity to become the legal owner of the building, thus my suggestion to check who is the registered owner of the building in question. It does not need to be the land owner, as buildingpermit has been issued to someone else as authorised by land owner. Just need to pop the question and show Tabien Baan at land office or tessabaan

Also totally incorrect. The building permit has nothing to do whatsoever with the legal ownership of the building.

at least you can go to the Land Deprtament or local Tessabaan to find out who owns the building today. If buildingermit has been issued to your builder, he may be the registered owner of the building

Completely inocorrect. The person on the building permit is NOT the legal owner of the building.

Hi all (totally unrelated to the similar thread on the Samui Thaivisa board) I need a one of the small screws that holds my Accer laptop together. Anyone know who would have such part here on Phuket? Many thanks in advance for any help. Len