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(Voice typing enabled - not an excuse, just an explanation.) I recently learned, that's the way laws tend to get changed in Thailand, it's by petition. We all are thankful for the recent changes to TM 30 law allowing us to file our own. However there's still landlords who don't want to. Whether it be for taxes or just so they don't have to be scrutinized by the government. We all admit that it's difficult to get legal help because in a civil matter you shouldn't need lawyers.“ discuss it with your landlord. If your landlord won't discuss it discuss it with your landlord.” to us westerners that seems absurd. When in Rome come to mind? Over the last 4 1/2 months, for those of you who might be familiar with psychology, imagine a Holmes and Rahe Stress Index score of 3200. For those of you that are not familiar a score of 300 in one year, in a normal healthy adult, would begin to display physical manifestations. Imagine what a score of 3200 over 4 1/2 months does to a man with Parkinson's disease it was doing quite well until then. Why you ask? I worked with immigration to document what they were doing made it so they had no choice but to go to immigration with the lease, stand there all day proving that day were the landlord by getting documents from me via messenger, and now the lease is attached to them. An expired lease. Perfectly normal section 570 of the Thai CCC accounts for this. Misunderstanding that only leases written for more than three years have to be registered forget the fact that an expired lease is an expired lease. Whether it's expired by the date and you continue to live there, or it's expired naturally by the three-year limit, really doesn't matter. This landlord actually told me how he did it. Told me how by not filing with immigration, he avoids scrutiny. Do you really think immigration doesn't know? Didn't know the last four years? Now landlord understands that, you wouldn't believe the things that are happening. Trespasses for corrosion to sign a new lease. Wouldn't you in the face of nearly getting caught decided to step back and start following the law? The new lease is actually following the exact same pattern of purposely going for one year but now has an entrapment for 10 years paying everybody's taxes. They honestly think this is OK. When they came to my door one day they stood there crowds can be. As if they were doing everything right to come and trespass and say, “ get out of the room. Give me the room.” while pointing outside and declaring he's a lawyer and the owner who i is a lawyer, and the owner, that i've never met before in four years. Now we've got defamation. They're telling the neighbors that I'm the one being rude. Said I refuse to pay the rent. When in reality a legal review shows that they changed the entire lease on me. Using legal language in a chat that says that if I make any payment at all, I'm either entrapped to a new lease, or is it the current lease I have has something in it that they're going to hold me to. Their demand letter saying I was late paying the rent had no legal basis whatsoever. I pay the rent by the 10th by convention. It was the 8th and they were trying to say it was eight days late. That if I didn't pay on time they were going to take legal action to hold me to the lease. So I have the least checked out. Yep. The new lease that they've slipped in without my signature certainly doesn't trap me to 10 years. It's kind of like transparency in communication, except being transparent about intentions that should be kept hidden. One has to wonder. Is this real? I ordered a translation of the lease from Fiverr. The woman was so appalled she's willing to send a petition. Not only are these things unlawful. But being done by a lawyer, or let us keep in mind someone who's saying they're a lawyer. Hold certain moral implications. Now add to it a UN Convention that Thailand fully participates in about the rights of people with disabilities. Yet for every time I point out to them the obviousness of what they're doing rather than backing down they do more. In all seriousness I've been through so much in my life then it seems trivial to me but you my Parkinson's disease... I'm totally debilitated. Can't even care for myself anymore. Meanwhile they keep trespassing, coercing, using my disease against me to keep me from going to the police. Having the neighbors do it for them isolating me because what Thai person wants to get involved involved with conflict, at what sane person when there's a lawyer involved who has acted in a volatile manner wants to be a party to that. They don't realize that by helping me, under the disabilities acts, they're actually protected. For those of my brothers and sisters, my fellow expats, I now feel your pains that you've been feeling for the 14 years that I've been here. It petitions the way the laws get changed let's do that. Let's not embarrassed Thailand like we did about TM 30 in the past by discussing the problem of TN 30 online and its potential civil rights or whatever it was everyone was arguing. Let's discuss the need for a petition. It's better for everyone. Effects change. It's doing something about it. I'm not gonna leave it because I simply can't. But if anyone would like to join the petition, one simple e-mail to the civil rights office here in thailand on my behalf I'll be happy to tell you the story. And yes, i'm smiling. I've been here for 14 years. I know how to smile 😉 I'll come check on this every few days if I can. Have gone through some pretty extensive recovery right now that I really can't recover because the stress isn't over. I've gotta have relief from them enough to be able to build the police report over 4 1/2 months spanning 300 documents. Any volunteers ha ha ha?

Voice typing mode... it's true that it only applies to those that are doing residential contracts as a business (5+ properties) in terms of their being oversight. We have to keep in mind that the presence of one law upon a group, can be applied to other groups. This is called the spirit of the law. Courts tend to hold up that which is fair, and pointing out that your landlord is being unfair and other things, most especially if they have shifted the balance of gain toward themselves (Undue Gain) we'll find themselves facing actual laws they use words similar to undue gain. I'm agreeing with you but I want to point out, using the argument as a landlord that it doesn't apply to me is not going to get very far with a lawmaker thus it won't get very far with a law enforcer. You certainly can't stand there and say in the absence of a law I can do anything I want. The law is based on the foundation of legality which is what is the common practice. In a society that highly values fairness, at least within its legalities, it will be very seldom if there isn't somewhere a standard of what is followed. So you are correct residential contract as a business, is enforced much more quickly than a residential contract by landlord with a single property. So why haven't you just taken it to OCPB once you've shown that you have done enough and can do no more on your own? These thoughts might seem radical, but I assure you quite a few type people have told me this is the way it's meant to be. And then checking it with GPT 4.0 models I found it to be quite true. While AI models are terrible adding interpreting laws themselves because they have an inability to be exact about language, doesn't mean that they don't recognize how culture works. And most certainly when the laws are uploaded to a conversation can you describe your situation they're very quick to point out where there's a conflict noting not particular cases but case law in general since they scrub themselves of law personal data the fact that it's in a GPT means that it did exist therefore your ability to find it won't be very difficult if you need to use it. You won't need to use it. Either a landlord is truly from Thailand and embraces Thai society, or they know they're doing something wrong they don't want to be discovered. Don't blackmail them with that of course! That's for us as foreigners to whine with this culture is it not fair? Sorry I can't join that campaign

<voice typing on> Actually... I have learned a lot about Thai culture and law in all of this. Mainly that when someone is doing something against societal norms or illegal, you just stand firm. Have them take you to conciliation, arbitration, or court. Partied of a contract that are "unfair" especially if they do not communicate are highly looked down on. Landlords that do not register leases? WOW... they are seriously damaged. I understand now, by people think the bars are entirely skewed quite landlords. The fact is Thailand civil and Commercial Code it's extremely fair, exact Thailand is a culture demands fairness in all things ( OK try not to laugh we're foreigners... But when it comes to contract law look for yourself!) I completely understand, why lawyers say we can't help you. I can't tell you how many lawyers told me to the effect, “ discuss it with your landlord. Or pay hundreds of thousands of THB to go to court and have them tell you the same thing unless it's something extreme in which case why haven't you just filed with OCSB? Why are you westerners always telling us our culture is wrong? We value discussion and working things out not having a government force everything on us. If you want for 45,000 we'll do a case review for you and point out discuss it with your landlord. ” I've got one of those landlords that knows that if he doesn't talk to me it makes everything impossible. Reality is it's quite simple. Since when are you ever punished for following the law? You tell the landlord that won't file TM 30? You know there's probably a reason for that! Why would somebody not want to file a 5 minute process online? Think about it if you weren't paying taxes, and or you have unscrupulous rental practices, do you really want the government looking into it? No way! My landlord evaded not just pretended not to file, literally would make mistakes like slightly altering the address from one form to the next; or using a website that uses OCR to put the documents into the computer for immigration, and OCR having make sure the format is correct add 6 zeros to my passport number. I have to say immigration officials and I had quite a bit of fun for the entire month watching him. They were kind enough to explain to me when I asked why on earth would he do this... Ask him charging me 250% above market rate when I first moved in? People like to say, "ohh well you sign the contract!" Yeah sorry guys, the law doesn't really work that way. That he wouldn't talk about it and then tried to shove a rent increase on me when I have a section 570 lease and I have to sign off on the rent increase - ohh wow did he get upset when I did a market rate report showed him, it's actually only 2700 right now ( I'm in a family neighborhood in Chatuchak with low turnover inconvenient to transportation,) and it was 1800 when I moved in. In the absence of any other proof what could he do ? Evict me for only paying 2700? He never filed the lease for one thing so the courts, "what gives an eviction proceedings?" But the real thing is he won't even go to mediation, and remember that laws can't be mediated, because he's not going to open his rental practices. Well my landlord certainly presents a unique case where there might be some delusions of grandeur based on words that he said of having his own nation protected by the laws of Thailand, from what I understand of other Thai people this is what they do. They don't create conflict they simply stand firm. They don't go running to arbitration they tell the landlord without telling him you take me to arbitration and while I'm there I'll plan out you're being unfair and they'll be mad at you. You might think this concept ohh the people self enforcing it's strange that we have it in the United states.“ teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves,” is a quote a few of you here will certainly recognize. Imagine a nation that lives by that standard something close to it anyway.

Anyone found a copy if this? I did find two others from the same year and the same regulation number have to do with the factories and another topic. ChatGPT 4 You Ministerial Regulation No. 30 (B.E. 2535) concerning residential leases ChatGPT ChatGPT Ministerial Regulation No. 30, B.E. 2535 (1992), issued under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand, pertains to residential leases. This regulation was instituted to provide clearer guidelines and protections that specifically address the relationships between landlords and tenants, ensuring that residential leases are conducted fairly and transparently in Thailand. Here’s a detailed look at the key provisions of this regulation: Lease Agreement Formalities: The regulation may stipulate the need for lease agreements to be in writing, providing a clear record of the terms agreed upon by both parties. This helps prevent disputes arising from misunderstandings or verbal agreements not being honored. Rights and Duties of Landlords and Tenants: The regulation outlines specific rights and duties for both landlords and tenants. For landlords, this often includes maintaining the property's habitability, making necessary repairs, and respecting the tenant's right to privacy. For tenants, duties typically include paying rent on time, keeping the property in good condition, and informing the landlord of any damages or issues that arise. Rent Control and Increases: To protect tenants from arbitrary and excessive rent increases, the regulation may set guidelines on how and when rent can be increased. This could include provisions such as requiring advance notice and justifiable reasons for rent increases. Security Deposits: The regulation might define the maximum amount that can be charged as a security deposit and the conditions under which it must be returned to the tenant at the end of the lease term. Termination of Lease: Clear procedures for terminating a lease agreement are likely included in the regulation, covering both landlord and tenant-initiated terminations. This includes notice periods and, potentially, penalties for early termination without sufficient cause. Dispute Resolution: The regulation provides mechanisms for resolving disputes between landlords and tenants. This could involve mediation or arbitration processes designed to handle disagreements without needing to resort to more formal legal proceedings. Enforcement and Penalties: To ensure compliance with the regulation, there may be specific penalties for violations. These could range from fines to more severe penalties depending on the nature and severity of the violation. Understanding the specifics of Ministerial Regulation No. 30, B.E. 2535, is crucial for anyone involved in residential leasing in Thailand, as it sets out the legal framework that governs such agreements, protecting the interests of both landlords and tenants and helping to maintain harmony in landlord-tenant relations. If you’re involved in residential leasing in Thailand or are planning to rent property there, it’s advisable to familiarize yourself with the details of this regulation or consult a legal expert to understand how it impacts your rights and obligations.

Getting quoted form movers in case I must vacate. All of them have fairly standard limits on their liability ( who wouldn't if you can get away with it?_ At most one company will pay 25% of losses up to 2,500 THB. Whoopie. My theater and research machines are too expensive to purchase again and I never could find a "renter's insurance" company to cover items in the room. Anyone know where I can buy some short term converge?

To answer some questions: * I am not haggling. I don't care about 500 baht. I am trying to make sense and learn about a culture. Also I am in need of contract so i can't be made to move out suddenly. For parkinson's the home becomes a tool with special adaptiations. You don't jsut pick up and move easily. I also have buld great friendships here. Moving to another room? Seriously, guys, we all know he next landlod will have their own issue of power tripping * Yes the room is peanuts (a remodeled room might go for 4000), no it is not a s^ hole. It is in Chatuchak in a abnormal polygon that people have no reason to live in unless they live here or have family. I ended here becaus when I got out of the hsopital my Parkinson's assistant (yup, inexpensive) lives around the corner. I am quite content in this are. Good, working class people that take care of each other and mostly mind their own business. * the 600k room is larger and far more luxurious than the new condos just bult across the street iwth modern architecture rather than "Thai 90's expansion era architecture." Those meager 20 meter rooms are 2 million. Seriously? Tell me where you can have even a new condo with as nice of upgrades as the 600k room for less than 4 million. * no, I can't just move to the 600k room. it is not for rent and I do not qualify for a loan - the owner is not interested in the math entertainment of financing it himself.

Normally I too agree with you both. What I didn't point out is that with Parkinson's the home becomes a tool to help manage your care. It takes a lot of time and expense to do that. The owner gave me permission to install things, for example, with the agreement I get to take them with me and leave the room as it was when I moved in. To them the water damage the old and broken AC unit caused to furniture is my fault. Normal war and tear? My fault, not normal wear and tear. The financial and time cost to move is very high plus I am heading to New York for a an invasive surgery next week and am facinga 6 week recovery - bad timing. I could seriously care less about 500 baht, guys, lets be real. I can't even get a new contract so it is month to month and I never know when I will lose my home with only 5 days notice becasue they are bound by no laws. Let us not forget... no matter where I move TiT as someone so eloqently pointed out. Do you really think the next landlord will be any better whatsoever? Better the devil you know.

I am not sure where my stance is at the moment, so since ur with me want to clarify where we are? 😄 ROFL... one of the things I have learned here is, "So what?" Language: !0000% pretend to be respectful and never make it seem like accusing, even if you must lie about the situation and if they don't get the hint? So what? It costs money or physical threat to compel people to do things. This is the culture. It is for a reason that works for them as much as enforced codependency does in the Philippines. Are they happy inside? Not many. How many? I'd wager more than in the West 😉 Maybe my question should be, "How do I 'phrase a Carnegie to them?' Meaning, explain, 'Well, you can ask that of me. Let's look at how that benefits us both... so would you like me to keep paying your bills or do you have someone waiting who will pay that high of a price - because I'm here for the fine service that i enjoy, but if you can make more money without me, it is not right for me to stand in your way." You see, that does not work here. Face is more important here. They literally, by all that they are as a Thai and their family's child, their cultural upbringing must stand firm. Anything else is a loss of face (this is what my wife and business partner tell me...) It is not reasonable compromise of two winners and mutual benefit. I just eloquently shamed them beyond any format they have ever witnessed or felt. They KNOW all the facts in the Carnegie speech. They made a choice to GAMBLE. It is a game of chicken. "Will the falang cave for convenience and 500 bath isn't even one meal for him (and for me is 4 days.) Probably. Will I continue to care about and respect them? Hand me their coffee cup, I will refill it.

Not so easy living alone with Parkinson's and a surgery scheduled some time in the next 2 -6 weeks. I really don't care about 500 baht, I just want to follow the laws.

Lease expired 3 years ago. Now they want more per month. I am already paying more than other rooms rent for and those are remodeled. I don't think the owner's son cares much about mom (I mean that protectively of her.) She is too old to manage things. Rooms here sire empty for YEARS. She can't pay the taxes and HOA and things without me and we have a mutual understanding. I offered to buy it above market if she carries. She sees how smart that is. Income, no taxes, not HOA, if I leave early she keeps the money and the room - simple. Son? NOPE! Add another 110k or move out. OK. I have no issue paying an extra 500 a month for the convenience of not needing to move with my Parkinson's disease and a surgery coming up and living alone. No worries in any way except one. I will follow the laws and have a lawful contract or I am not leaving and I am not paying more. There is no enforceable contract. The old contract has no precisions for termination. I've lived here 3 years... My lawyer wants have a field day... sigh. Chill dude. Anyone know the REAL laws of this rental situation of expired contract that does not lawfully follow 2018 L&T laws? I find it quite humorous other than how the mother is being used.

Let's face it. Every culture is different and we don't immediately see why people may do what they do. We try not to judge more than to say if that value is a principal we want in our own thinking or way of life or not. That said, it is always nice to understand. Take properties that sit empty for years. In my condo unit built in the'90's where few people have a reason to live unless they work near here or family, rooms sit empty for years unsold yet for a small reduction can be sold quickly for way more than they owe the bank (easy to see the default notices on the door.) Other rooms are rentals - they sit for years because the owner has a dingy, never remodeled, old aircon, bad wiring unit but want the rental price of the many available remodeled rooms. They are quite content with is no income, pay the taxes and HOA situation. My own landlord wants 500 more a month. No big deal. Unlawful the way she is asking based on 2018 laws, but that is another thread. She would rather I move out. I am paying over market because the room had furnishing, I was fresh out of the hostpital and it was near my nurse. They know and I know that the 500 baht means little to me. What does matter to me is their feeling their belief they can walk in any time unannounced an almost break the door down kicking it in because they want to see me. It bothers me that they refused to file with Immigration and I had to pay 30k for a visa agency instead of 1.9k. It bothers me that I find out the lease did not comply with 2018 laws and almost all they think they can do is unlawful. Do they care if I move out and the room is empty? The mother is already behind in taxes and HOA. Not a concern in the world that I am already paying 1000 over market. I pay on time, I improve the room and will take all improvements with me if they force my hand - I have the chat messages pre-approving my changes and I take them with me when I leave. Faced with their financial situation, as a Westerner, I am asking myself, "Is this a game of chicken?" If so, they will lose. See-yea! I'll be next door in the newly remodeled luxury room at the new price wanted for this room. Or, Hmmm... here's a thought. How about I have Siam Legal enforce the 2018 laws of notice of increase when a contract is expired? Alas... as I get older battles to prove a point have no meaning any more. See-ya. I offered to buy the room since she is having difficulties paying taxes and ongoing maintenance at her old age. She likes that idea. the laughter I tried not not let out in her presence was the insistence she will not take less than 650k. Unmodeled it is worth 460k. Remodeled to incredible luxury next to me is listed at 600k. They will not come down and it has sat for 4 years. A mutual friend says she will lose the property to the government (or bank? her English is not great) soon, More is the pity. I am going to need to move anyway. The owner owes less than 200k - I had to get all of this info to do Immigration papers on her behalf. I am befuddled. Please don't say this is pride and face is it? Surely the Asian long term perspective is the real reason, but in the face of profit or none; take the money or lose the property to default... there is no long term planning. I would like to understand though. Any facts out there, not judgments? Cheers all!

That's agreat dolution for those that can get back to their native land. It's only a few of unable to travel due to health. Thankyou again for all the input. i wil bail outof this topic.. gonna be in the hospital a few days.

I missed the ovrseas part. I am going on a week of sleep deprivation. Apologies and thanks fo finding that. USA has just announced all Social Security sent to thailand will be via citbank and bahtnet, so, yeah, if you can tell the community how you who receive your payments that way get the right documents I am sure we Yanks will be appreciatve.

That's great! Too bad SSA has announced that the Bahtnet system will be used for everyone now and Immigration has ZERO clear cut rules nor does it say the money must come from overseas. iimmi.d1.non.oz AT gmail.com: cc complain.kk2A T gmail.com "For the 1 year Retirement visa , must have bank statements of commercial banks located in Thailand. Past 12 months. Details according to the attached document. Best Regards." (PDF attached) fbu.manila AT ssa.gov: "Thank you for your email. Since you are using a bank in Thailand, your benefit goes to a processor bank in your case is the Citibank Bangkok. All benefits that are being deposited in a local bank will go thru a processor bank before the benefits will be deposited in the local bank account. If you do not want this delay, you may use a U.S. bank account." YOU figure this out. I am going to pay $1k per year and avoid the hassle, thanks บั้นปลาย 242 PDF.pdf

My apologies.. I was so focused on other things I didn't think of that!