qualtrough

Thanks to all of you who have replied so far. Does anyone know of any scholarly papers that have touched on this topic, by either local or foreign academics?

I agree that the average Thai has only a very vague knowledge of their history, strictly in line with what they are taught in school. That would not be too different from the case in my home country judging from the ocassional history surveys results I have seen. I also agree that the racial aspect was an important factor differentiating slavery here from slavery in the US and elsewhere. The fact that Thais only adopted family names after the abolition of slavery also means that those names would not be helpful in identifying former slaves, etc. All that being said, I find it hard to imagine that there are no vestigial remnants of the slavery experience here in some form. I suspect there are, but that they may be too subtle for most farangs to detect, or we may see them but not realize their origin.

I think the difference might be that slavery wasn't race based.

Another nightowl?

I am sure that is part of the different response. But I am curious as to whether or not the slavery issue might be present in ways that the average farang might not be picking up on.

I recall reading the first in the series you mentioned on the BBC and being surprised that it did not mention any of the historical background to this issue. Did any of the subsequent reports deal with this? This issue has come up from time to time on the forum and it is clear that a lot of readers think that the Southern unrest is some kind of post 9/11 issue, whereas the roots of this conflict go way back.

Without any understanding of the history of the region no real understanding of what is going on is possible. I will say that the Thaksin response has not helped matters. In fact, it has poured gasoline on the fire. Slaughtering a large number of for the most part unarmed men in a mosque and killing a good number of protesters by stacking them like cordwood in trucks really escalated things, and a lot of what we see now is payback for those and other deeds. If Thailand adopts the US response to this kind of issue then Thailand is in for very grim times indeed.

I am sure that most forum members are aware that at one time long ago a form of chattel slavery was practiced in Thailand, finally being abolished shortly after the turn of the century. In form it was somewhat different than slavery as practiced, say, in the USA, but still slavery. I also recall that slaves were marked by tatoos to indicate their ownership. As a long-term resident here I do not recall this ever being an issue with anyone, whereas back in the USA there continue to be repercussions from that era to this day, and it is always the elephant in the room in black/white relations. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who can help answer the following questions:

1. Is there any stigma attached to belonging to a family that were once slaves?

2. Do Thais even know who does or does not come from a family with a slave background?

3. Does this issue, or issues related to this, even come up in Thailand in any way, shape, or form?

This belief is not restricted to Isaan. My wife is from a central Thailand background (Ayudhaya), and after the birth of our firstborn I recall her having an old woman come and give her some massages that involved heat and herbs, possibly the tent routine. She is sleeping now but I will ask her to refresh my memory tomorrow and report back.

As far as the shaved heads, ocassionally you will see Thai children with a shaved head and a topknot in the traditional Thai style. I have asked around and the answer that I received was that the children had been ill and that the parents had made a deal with whatever spirit or entity responsible for illness that they would have the child wear their hair in that style for a period of time in return for the child being cured.

So the OP has visited Lao many times without incident and enjoyed it, but reads one book about a couple's bad experience in Lao and is therefore never going back again. If I were him I would stop reading books or the news because if he doesn't he will find that he will run out of countries that are 'safe' for him to visit.

I don't have a problem with customs and immigration authorities in the US doing their jobs, and I expect that I will be questioned and even searched once in a while. I do have a problem with rude agents with an attitude, and I have experienced that on a more than a few ocassions. I will be visiting the US again on Monday for 10 days, so might have another story, although I hope not!

interesting responses in this thread.

looking at the larger picture,

what kind of culture teaches its members that to kill another human being is an acceptable way of resolving a dispute?

all above warnings about being careful are so very true of course.

it just seems to me that even the foreigners are afraid to say that this kind of behaviour is neanderthal.

i am always looking for an influential Thai person who will speak out about how schizoid Thai 'culture" is.

like in pretending to be Buddhist and then voting back into power a man who gave carte-blanche to the police to go out and kill people (the "rid Thailand of drugs campaign") without any review or repercussions.

in my humble opinion,

there is no moral leadership in this country.

the Sangha has too many corrupted members.

Monks are there for giving out lottery numbers, for a price.

Politicians and business people are nearly all corrupt.

Academics are toothless tigers or in someones pocket.

News and TV are scared into compliance.

A country that cares so much about "Face",

and nearly everything it does only causes others to see that they being mentally primitive, thus losing respect.

i think it ok to criticize what one sees as immoral or stupid behaviour.

in many many countries on this planet, that poor chap would not be dead.

there is NO EXCUSE for this kind of behaviour.

and now with the new visa enforcements,

Thailand is becoming an international joke.

Sorry, but in a lot of countries that tourists visit, including the USA, tourists sometimes get murdered. A good thing? No, of course not. If you think of all the hundreds of thousands of tourists that spend most of their time getting shit-faced in sleazy bars during their visit here the amazing thing is that more don't end up dead or injured. If that same number of people were to visit bars with strippers and hookers in the US the number would be many, many times higher. It seems to me that a lot of forum members bought into the Land of Smiles nonsense and get all outraged when a bit of reality creeps in. I have lived here for a long time, and sadly once in a while a tourist dies or is murdered. In my opinion the only reason there seems to be an increase in these events is primarily due to the fact that we have better and instant communication now via the Internet, and because the number of foreigners here has dramatically increased.

It is if you are one of the up-country types who sit around drinking Lao kao shouting "จน" "เครียด" "จน" "เครียด" all day long.

I seriously doubt if that kind of people would have the nerve to ask for a loan.

And if you did provide the loan for them then you don't deserve to have any money left.

That was the point really.

Seriously if it was one of my brother in laws that did that to me i would kick his a$$

This is the Thai way and i would save face even if i lost.

By doing nothing I have lost face with everyone. This is upcountry "face" protocol, BKK

may differ.

Good luck

nam

I seriously doubt if that is the 'thai' way.

It is if you are one of the up-country types who sit around drinking Lao kao shouting "จน" "เครียด" "จน" "เครียด" all day long.

You would be crazy to get remarried so quickly, especially so shortly after getting divorced. The only reason you should remarry is if you still get along well after a considerable period of time and even then only if you want to have kids and raise a family. There are other simpler ways to get a visa and/or WP. Don't do it....but if you do please be sure to post periodic follow-ups for our entertainment

Hi All,

The way I read the rules is that if I remarry I can obtain a Non 'O' (maybe even Multiple entry) at a consulate outside of Thailand which then can be repeated after 3 months as I dont have the required 400k for the 1 year extension.

I got divorced from my crazy wife 2 weeks ago. We are on better terms now than we have ever been and she has offered to help me out with my now screwed up visa situation by remarrying. Has anyone ever been in a similar situation as this? Do I have to go through the whole marriage process again (declaration from embassy, translation, MFA, District Office ect.) or is there a 'period of grace' for people that *cough* regret getting divorced?

Thanks in advance for any help.

I cannot answer your visa question, but I have been in a similar situation. Some years ago I married a Thai-Chinese woman and we moved to the US. We stayed together about 5 years, but fought like cats and dogs. We got divorced and moved apart, living about 15 minutes away from each other. For the next year and a half we were together every night, with her staying over at my place. We had almost no fights and, like you, we were on better terms than we ever were before. The only thing that ended it was my going away to grad school out of state and then eventually meeting someone else. What I think made the difference, and I have heard similar stories from others, is that we each had our own space to fall back on. Anyway, that is how it worked for us. I am telling this to you because you might find that if you get remarried and move back in together you will be back in the status quo ante before you know it. Good luck on the relationship and the visa!

Seriously if it was one of my brother in laws that did that to me i would kick his a$$

This is the Thai way and i would save face even if i lost.

By doing nothing I have lost face with everyone. This is upcountry "face" protocol, BKK

may differ.

Good luck

nam

I expect we will be reading about 'Nam Kao' in the News forum one day...

If you really think you must make a loan why not ask for some collateral? That is not an unheard of concept here. If they sincerely want/need the money and intend to pay surely they would be willing to place something they own of value in your hands as collateral? If they have nothing, or if they are unwilling to offer anything up, the chances that your loan will become a 'gift' have just increased dramatically. Anybody asking you for a loan is asking you a really big favor. If they are unwilling to return the favor by doing something that minimizes your risk then they are imposing on your good will and you should not feel any obligation to them whatsoever. That is the way I would operate, but if others want to do differently that is their business.

Yeah, and unfortunately, it is something that cannot be explained to people who do not want to hear it. So, for those who do, here is breaking news:

manners and attitudes are very often communicated non-verbally, especially in Asia.

Most adults can tell the difference between an ordinary friendly smile, and a come on smile; most women in Asia can tell the difference between an ordinary friendly attitude, and a proprietary one; I was talking about the latter.

Here in Thailand, I have often encountered this attitude from older Thai men, especially when I am out late and coming home alone. It is an attitude that crosses the anonymous sphere and assumes much in the way they glance at you openly. It is quite obvious in an otherwise polite society.

As a female here, I think I am well versed in this attitude, as it has occured a few times, or enough for me to notice a pattern.

What are other patterns or experiences other people have with security guards or building people overstepping their bounds?

Kat, you have chosen to live in a culture wherein the majority of people think that a single woman going out alone and coming back at all hours of the night is not a good thing. That attitude is not going to change in your lifetime so you will get 'looks' from time to time. Having said that, if your security staff is stepping over the line or making your feel uncomfortable you need to inform the management.

I have traveled all over the world for the last 35 years, and without a doubt the worst customs and immigration experiences have been in the US--hands down--and I am a US citizen. If you are asked an inappropriate question such as "Are you there for the girls?" you should immediately ask to speak with a supervisor and file a formal complaint. You are under no obligation to answer rhetorical questions about personal preferences.

On my last visit with my family (wife, two daughters) the immigration officer in Seattle looked like she was going to go postal as she made a big deal out of removing our passports from their plastic covers. Didn't say one word the entire time, but made it very clear she was disgusted and angry that she had to do that. If she had asked me if we could remove them I would have happily done so. BTW, that is the first and last time I have seen anyone remove the covers.

I had one US official ask me whether or not a I was a secular humanist when he discovered I was doing field research for a Ph.D. in Thailand. Unfortunately I didn't follow the advice I just gave above as it only registered with me after I left the line.

A freind of mine who's traveled all over Asia, including Thailand told me once that the Thai's are essentially a "warrior" people. I'v always kept this in mind when i'v been in Thailand!

Do you mean "warriors" as in fighting noble wars; or as in cowardly and sadistically murdering unarmed tourists ? Please clarify....

Thais, God bless 'em, are not a warrior race, and if so, they are the most spectacularly inept warriors ever. A comparison of the boundaries of Thailand some 100 years ago and today tells you all you need to know about that, or the fact that they could not wrest a tiny island from the Laos a few years back, or... They are part of a culture that generally puts a high value on avoiding conflict. Because so much emotion is constantly held in check, when it gets loose it usually blows big-time, no restraint. The importance of face is another issue.

A loan in Thailand translates to a 'grant' or 'gift.'

Only loan what you're willing to give away.

A westerner being with a Thai woman involves him giving money.

No money, no girl, no girlfriend, no wife.

One of the top questions a farang needs to ask himself when he wants to shack up with a Thai lady is:

How much am I willing to spend to stay with her?

If that amount is not sufficient in her view, there's either no relationship, or it's a strained one at best.

Any notions of romance, are best left for novels and videos. Regardless of what she might say about romance and love, her prime concerns are money (for her) and security for her family.

Unfortunately, farang men are so easily duped, that they keep getting on the conveyer belt of hopes and dreams for their entrancing Thai gals and dumped down the other end with dashed hopes and thin wallets.

Have to agree with the others who rubbished this post. Been married 11 years now, two kids, and have not experienced one of the issues raised by Brahmburger to be the case, not one.

I have a similar situation to yours, wife has one brother, parents run a shop, put kids through college, extremely thrifty, etc. I was asked one time long ago by the brother-in-law to loan some money for the purchase of a small flat. Probably a similar amount of money to yours, I forget the exact amount. I told my wife that I was not lending money for any speculative ventures, and that my responsibility was to her and our children. Only possible exception was if someone was sick or dying and needed medical help. But--in order to soften the blow I told her to tell him that my money was tied up in investments overseas and that I would be penalized for early withdrawal. The brother ended up getting a loan and all worked out well in the end. No repercussions, and no further loan requests either. He is a sober hard-working guy and the property he purchased worked out well. I am pretty confidant he would have paid me back, but why risk all that trouble? If you let it be known you are a soft touch you will be forever getting hit for loans, etc. and it will be difficult if not impossible to change that policy without affecting your relationship with your family. My advice to anyone would be to make it clear from the start that you are not an ATM machine or a bank and if they don't like it they can suck eggs. The advantage of that policy is that you will know who your real friends are. Saying that I know that this would be hard to implement with some families, so choose your in-laws well!

Belgian newspaper in french:

http://www.dhnet.be/dhinfos/article.phtml?id=155786

Baically same infos as already posted here

Parents added murdered guy was a calm guy

That article mentioned that the family is trying to locate two Frenchmen who were drinking with the brothers but they have been unable to do so. A German was also there, but since he was not mentioned again presumably they have been in contact with him.

I have banked with Siam Commercial Bank for years. There Internet banking interface is easy to use. If Bangkok Bank makes life hard for you screw 'em.

If you have to/want to pay, tell whoever is arranging it to get receipts for anything over 1000 B and reimburse them for those. No receipt, no payment, except for petty expenses.

Anyone who thinks that torture is ever justified is a terrorist.

So right...

Interesting Nam Kao, but what the heck do those stories have to do with street beggars??

A few years back I had to buy a ticket at the airport in Seattle for some reason and they wouldn't let me buy a one-way ticket unless I could show them a visa. I wasted a lot of time arguing with them about the non-neccessity of doing that, but in the end bought a full fare ticket as their suggestion so that I could get a refund on the return portion. Only time that has ever happened to me.