timmyp

Many Chinese families supposedly came here with nothing, and did well for themselves. There is a saying in Thai, "to have come with just a mat to sleep on," and that is about the Chinese merchants who came with nothing and worked their way up.

I think many of these stories are true, but hard not to think many are also untrue, because most people with money want to look like, "I worked very hard to get here, nobody just handed me my wealth."

The guy who started the nori/seaweed snacks that are popular in Thailand has a great background story about starting small and hitting it really big, but the wonderful story may be more part of the product brand than reality.

I wish I hadn't watched that video... my own fault for clicking "play"

I have suffered serious insomnia since I was a little kid. I have battled with it my entire life.

1) This forum is a good way to hear about what other people are doing, but definitely don't take advice seriously here! That probably doesn't need to be said, but just in case!

2) I think drugs like xanax and ambien are fine for the short-term, but they are truly for occasional usage, and are only a quick, temporary solution

3) Another poster recommended hypnosis. I thought self-hypnosis was stupid, but I'll try anything. I first tried it in my mid 30s. It didn't work at first, but I was persistent, even though I didn't believe in it. After 3 months, I started going under. That really helped me alot.

4) Drinking doesn't work for me, but it does for some people. If you are going to bed drunk in order to fall asleep, then you're drinking way too much and need to find another solution

5) dephenhydramine is a non-addictive sleep aid. It's the active chemical in Benadryl. It's an antihistamine, as you may already know. 2 x 25 mg works well. It takes about an hour to feel sleepy.

6) Definitely, definitely exercise regularly. That will have a big impact on sleep

7) I have never enjoyed meditation, but I keep wanting to give it another try. I think that may really be the best way?

8) I think valerian root and melatonin are useless, but if they work for you, then definitely stick with them because they are non-habit forming and don't appear to have any undesirable adverse effects

I only have a little chunk of sky that I can see from my computer room. Last night around 8:30, just as I looked out the window to wish an end to the current job that has been sucking up all my time, I saw a meteor streak across the sky, followed by a bright flash. Sorry to have disturbed all of Bangkok with my wish. I would have saved it for something more worthwhile than an end to my current job had I known the Great Powers were actually listening to me for a change.

I wasn't sure what it was, but a search on Twitter confirmed right away that it was a meteor. Very exciting.

Although not specifically stated this discussion is concerned with learning the spoken language and in that regard I would agree with you that Japanese is not especially complex. A separate topic but the written language is a different matter and my hat is off to you if you are a certified translator.

I agree with you that it's not especially complex. But yet it winds up as the top ten hardest languages in that silly video in the OP. It's also ranked by the U.S. State Department described by another poster I was arguing with as one of the languages taking the most amount of time to learn. Obviously there is a such varied opinion on the topic of language complexity that it's hard not to simply dismiss all claims of complexity.

McWhorter's claims are interesting as you describe them. I should look into what you describe, thanks for turning me on to him.

Reading and writing Japanese has a steep learning curve, but once you have enough kanji under your belt, it's a breeze to understand new terms. I come across technical terms that I have never seen before all the time, and it's easy to understand them because the kanji tells you the meaning. In English, you can't do that (well, if you've studied Greek and Latin for years, then you have a good shot at guessing the meaning of medical terms and animal classifications, but otherwise, you just gotta know the word). Because of this, I would guess that a monolingual English speaker learning Japanese can understand technical documentation in a variety of fields in Japanese before a monolingual Japanese speaker can understand technical documentation in a variety of fields in English. That's just my guess.

Timmyp

You should just back off. It is fairly clear that you do not know hat you are talking about and that many respondents have a much better grasp of Linguistics than you.

Languages are not of exactly identical difficulty for first language speakers to acquire. Especially as all languages change and evolve over time they are constantly becoming to degree more or less difficult. A single language can also have a huge variation depending on the age, sex, social relationship and geography etc of the speakers. According to your ideas as English gradually lost it's case markers this as exactly paralleled by it gaining some balancing complexity at the same rate. That is just not how languages work or evolve. The process is much more random, illogical and interesting.

Research (I read it via John McWhorter) has shown that children take longer to reach an equivalent level of proficiency in some languages (some native American languages were examples) because they are more difficult.

Looks like someone put him out pretty quickly. Hopefully no serious burns. 30%-40% is alot, hopefully only widespread rather than deep. Can't see the front, don't want to... Nasty way to end it all.

It's great that he had a gun to defend himself from that mean lady dentist who overtook him.

Against data accumulated by a public institution that contradicts your half-baked claims, the best rebuttal you can come up with is that you know more because you have a degree? That's really the best you can do? Sheesh.

"I don't care if you claim you're qualified! I've never studied it but I know what I'm talking about! There are lots of other people who haven't studied it either, and they agree with me!"

Great position to argue from.

About the brilliance of that data accumulated by a public institution:

How many populist economic policies failed to consult a qualified economist?

How many education reforms left qualified teachers out of the loop while creating their policies?

I'm sure you can provide other such examples.

Do you think the data collected for those 4-levels of language difficulty were any different?

Thankfully they don't leave engineers out when building bridges or coming up with the building schedule.

Your mistake was that you should have studied theology where questions are indeed settled by authority. Not science. You seem to have missed a rather essential point.

No language is harder than another..... Children learn to speak at the same time.

I have an M.A. in phonetics, and I have looked at loads of languages with some interesting sounds.

This thread is about adults learning a new language and not about the innate learning of a language by a child, an ability that seems to disappear around puberty. Did you take no courses in linguistics on your way to a degree in phonetics? Perhaps you should read some articles on the critical age hypothesis or read some of Krashen's works as he is quite readable for being a linguist.

It took me a while to stop rolling my eyes.

Krashen, huh? That genius n+1 business... sounds like you took a basic TEFL course, and now you know about certain languages being harder to learn later in life? The world of linguistics and language acquisition is broader than that, Johpa. Krashen doesn't deal with phonetics, btw. And he doesn't talk about a language being harder than another, so it's weird that you should bring it up as some kind of stance that certain languages are harder to learn as an adult.

So I guess I totally missed your point, other than you being snotty. "Did you take no courses in linguistics on your way to a degree in phonetics?"

The critical period (not "age", as you said) has been proven to end well before puberty. Look it up yourself. Oh, and read it this time before you try to cite it?

Sounds like you know a name of a linguist and part of a theory,...

I encourage you go back and read all the sections in my previous post that highlight what I specifically said about second language learning, because clearly you skimmed them as much as you did your cursory reading of Krashen's monitor model and the critical period.

Against data accumulated by a public institution that contradicts your half-baked claims, the best rebuttal you can come up with is that you know more because you have a degree? That's really the best you can do? Sheesh.

Even after you delete the irrelevant claim that all languages have the same inherent complexity, your opinion, to the extent that it is coherent, is not supported by the data. The Foreign Service Institute of the US State Department has been training US diplomats in a wide range of languages for decades. Their experience is that to train their students to the desired degree of proficiency (which they define) takes 2200 hours for Japanese, 1100 hours for Mongolian, and 900 hours for Swahili.

http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty

You have probably ignored completely reading and writing which are certainly not all equally difficult to learn and which would be an important part of most learners' goal of proficiency. For some unknown reason you are uniquely fixated upon the attitude of the natives as a major impediment in second language acquisition. The fact is, however, that most students of foreign languages do their learning in a classroom with a teacher, not on the street or out on the tundra among the Inuit hunters.

I am sure your mother is delighted with your degree, but it would be more impressive to me if you could demonstrate an ability to think critically and write clearly.

Yes, I'm aware of that goofy language difficulty ranking. People with degrees in linguistics laugh at that thing. There obviously weren't people working on that ranking who have a linguistics background. German is ranked in the highest level of difficulty, incidentally.

>Even after you delete the irrelevant claim that all language

Just trying to keep from filling the page by quoting the entire message. Go ahead and point your finger at that if you think I tried to edit my argument

>I am sure your mother is delighted with your degree, but it would be more impressive to me if you could demonstrate an ability to think critically and write clearly.

Just sad of you Cap'n. Learn about linguistics before you spout off about it like you have a clue. Just because someone drives a car doesn't mean they have the faintest idea of the mechanics. People use Windows and haven't a clue about programming. It would silly for people like that to make comments about what programming language is easier or harder, other than repeating what they have been told. It makes me chuckle how folks think they know about language because they speak one.

>but it would be more impressive to me if you could demonstrate an ability to think critically and write clearly.

Wasn't clear enough for you? Dignified way to address the argument.

I would be more impressed by you taking a basic 101 course on linguistics instead of trying to pretend you have any idea what you're talking about. Even an intro to linguistics book. There are loads out there for non-academic public.

But kick back at the bar and talk about how wrong I am and how much more you know, it will be met well if you are surrounded by those as ignorant on linguistics as you clearly are.

I gotta wonder: What do you speak besides English and a smattering of Thai, anyway? Even without understanding the mechanics of language and language acquisition, are you in any position to make any statement about learning a language other than "That sounds tough"?

Where is it ? Never seen any green in Bangkok !

I'm sure you've already done your own net search and found this already, but for others that haven't:

http://migrationology.com/2014/07/bang-krachao-bangkok-bike-tour/

It's a really beautiful area to ride a bike around in for the day. Enjoy it while you can.

If the language you want to learn is related to a language you know, then it will be easier for you. <---This is regarding learning a second language

It isn't innately an easy language, it's just easier for you.

If there are lots of good learning materials for a certain language, then it's going to be easier to learn that language than another language for which there are few materials for learning the language.

If there are many non-native speakers who speak a language that you'd like to learn, then you will find a higher level of tolerance from native speakers of that language listening to learner mistakes. If it's a language with few non-native speakers, then native speakers will be less tolerant. That can certainly make it harder to learn that particular language, <---This is regarding learning a second language

but again, it's not innately easy or hard.

If a language seems really complex in one way (for example, the pronunciation), then it's going to be easier in another way. <---This is regarding learning a second language

I have an M.A. in phonetics, and I have looked at loads of languages with some interesting sounds. It can be intimidating to hear and to analyze these unfamiliar sounds. Certainly some languages have more complex sound systems, while other languages have complex syntax. But it all balances out. There is no language with a crazy complex phonemic system and bizarre syntax and wacky morphology... if it's hard in one way, it will be easy in another. <---This is regarding learning a second language

I read an interesting paper on how a complex phonemic system actually allows for more "mispronunciation". That is, if you have 10 vowels and you mispronounce 1, you've got an error rate of 10%. If you've only got 5 vowels and mispronounce 1, then you've got a 20% error rate. This is a simplistic overview of the paper, but I think you get the point that being complex in one way doesn't mean that it's a harder language overall. <---This is regarding learning a second language

M.A. or no, this is a confused opinion. When you claim that all languages have the same complexity and therefore none are "innately" more difficult than any other, you are talking about the task a newborn faces in learning his mother language. I don't know if the claim of equal complexity is true or not, but the learning task that a newborn faces is irrelevant to the current discussion. We are talking about second language acquisition by an adult. From the point of view of a particular adult facing learning a new language not all languages are the same and how different it would be if he were an infant in that culture could hardly be less relevant.

I'm sorry to have confused you cap'n, but the opinion was mainly about learning a second language.

I have highlighted that above in red text so you don't miss it again.

Sadly, people who haven't a clue about linguistics or language believe that they have qualified opinions about it. "I don't know about machines, but that conveyor belt sure has a complex design."

To sum this up for you again:

Learning as an adult, the only factors that make a language easier or harder than another are:

#1: if it is related or not to a language you speak

#2: if native speakers accept the idea of non-natives learning it

Excluding point #2 above, if you are a monolingual native speaker of English, then it's just as hard for you do learn Swahili as it is to learn Japanese, Mongolian, and Quechua.

It's just a hard for a monolingual Japanese speaker to learn English as it is for you to learn Japanese. If we bring tolerance to non-natives into play as in point #2, that certainly makes a difference, but it isn't about the nature of the language. A video demonstrating how hard it is to learn such a language would be more accurate to show native speakers being intolerant to non-native speakers, rather than a demonstration of how complex the language is by its seemingly bizarre sounds.

No language is harder than another. "Indonesian is easy, so kids start speaking at 2. But Japanese is so hard that children can't speak until they're 8." ←of course no such situation exists. Children learn to speak at the same time.

If the language you want to learn is related to a language you know, then it will be easier for you. It isn't innately an easy language, it's just easier for you.

If there are lots of good learning materials for a certain language, then it's going to be easier to learn that language than another language for which there are few materials for learning the language.

If there are many non-native speakers who speak a language that you'd like to learn, then you will find a higher level of tolerance from native speakers of that language listening to learner mistakes. If it's a language with few non-native speakers, then native speakers will be less tolerant. That can certainly make it harder to learn that particular language, but again, it's not innately easy or hard.

If a language seems really complex in one way (for example, the pronunciation), then it's going to be easier in another way.

I think it's really interesting that people think languages are innately easier or harder than others. I often hear people tell me how easy Indonesian is, and how hard Japanese is. It's all the same.

I have an M.A. in phonetics, and I have looked at loads of languages with some interesting sounds. It can be intimidating to hear and to analyze these unfamiliar sounds. Certainly some languages have more complex sound systems, while other languages have complex syntax. But it all balances out. There is no language with a crazy complex phonemic system and bizarre syntax and wacky morphology... if it's hard in one way, it will be easy in another.

Languages that have a smaller lexicon are going to use those words in very complex ways, and intonation is going to play a much bigger role than a language that can rely on a separate word to convey an idea.

I read an interesting paper on how a complex phonemic system actually allows for more "mispronunciation". That is, if you have 10 vowels and you mispronounce 1, you've got an error rate of 10%. If you've only got 5 vowels and mispronounce 1, then you've got a 20% error rate. This is a simplistic overview of the paper, but I think you get the point that being complex in one way doesn't mean that it's a harder language overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qf9eH-_gYM

She details all her surgeries here, (if you can understand Thai), after disproving the accusation that she was indeed a kathoey.

Creepy. Don't F with your face. Plastic surgery is scarier than drugs by far.

One would expect bouncers employed by an entertainment establishment to act professionally and use minimal force (if any), even when under provocation, to evict any unruly patrons.

Obviously this was not the case here, where the bouncers' lack of anger management skills and thug temperament got the better of them. Very unprofessional and should be sacked.

People take that job because they like to get into fights. I definitely don't expect them to restrain themselves from force. I think they are happy to fight anyone, but surely there is something more tasty about punching a farang. There is little fear of follow-up revenge, or striking someone who might have a father in a position to take revenge.

Although I feel for this person, when you visit or settle in a foreign country you have to realize you have to abide by their rules and laws. Go in with your eyes open, you are not in your country anymore. No matter how superior you feel in what you consider a third world country, they are a sovereign nation and you abide by their rules and laws.

I recommend reading more about the case before you decide to post an opinion about it.

That is a bit harsh,especially as Blackwood seems to have had the idea of defacing the Buddha in an alcoholic bar. He would not have had the same "artwork" if his bar was in NZ...unless he also had a Christian, an Islamic, a Swami, and a non-believer (to avoid anti-discrimination laws), yet he seems to have thought it would be a great idea in Rangoon. Seems that maybe Blackwood had read as much about Myanmar culture as you (TimmyP) had thought about orientalsf eponymous truth "When in Rome...."

But more importantly, seems this guy is shopping for sympathy. Earlier he was a Kiwi, trying to pressure the NZ government to do something. Now, after the family has lived in NZ for more than ??30 years?? they are Brits and want UK government to intervene.

Although I feel for this person, when you visit or settle in a foreign country you have to realize you have to abide by their rules and laws. Go in with your eyes open, you are not in your country anymore. No matter how superior you feel in what you consider a third world country, they are a sovereign nation and you abide by their rules and laws.

I recommend reading more about the case before you decide to post an opinion about it.

"We won't prosecute your organized crime networks if you don't prosecute ours."

We should all be afraid so that the military has an easier time taking care of us.

They will understand Thai no problem. You might want to learn some basics about the difference online (and not on Thai Visa), such a making negative sentences and some different vocabulary words.

I have had good experiences. I always start off really nice, that usually makes things go really well everywhere.

I remember a problem with Chinese-run shops that would be very aggressive with me when I would enter their store, with the attitude of, "Hurry up and buy something and get the F out of my store!"

Although this has really dropped down, I still get this at the older family-run music instruments shops near Sanam Luang. My friend explains this as an "efficient" way of doing business.

It's not a big deal to me, I still go there if I need cheap stuff. I guess this is working as an "efficient" way of doing business, because I generally do as the seem to want me to do: I get what I need quickly, quickly haggle the price (if it's an item requiring haggling), and leave, because I find such interactions rather unpleasant. Even when our interactions are going well, I feel like they are ready to scold and show me disapproval. Like I said, though, not that big a deal, or I wouldn't go back. If they have younger staff on duty, I try to deal with the younger staff, cuz the younger staff are always pleasant to deal with.