Steely Dan
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Posts posted by Steely Dan
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Sadly when anyone tries to point out the truth about events which happened 80 years ago they get death threats; and the Turks made high handed noises about French democracy.
The French parliamentarian who proposed a controversial genocide denial bill has received death threats and had her website attacked.
Valérie Boyer, a member of the governing UMP party, was successful in getting parliamentary approval for a bill that outlawed the denial of a massacre of Armenians by Ottoman troops in 1915.
How very democratic.
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So where's the excuse? You can't use the stock excuse that the violence was a response to western interference, all we have is an election, which was reported to be one of the fairest in Nigeria's history. But as politics there divides on religious grounds we have a massacre based on nothing other than religiously motivated hatred from the usual suspects.
P.S 100+ deaths according to the latest news.
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@MrMuddle, I laid down the points which were consistent with the attack being a terrorist one, your points against this come from his namesake's testimony, which may well be true, even though killing civilians at a Christmas market was prone to give another impression. His lawyer also said he wasn't Muslim, which as with most things reported is ambiguous, was he Christian or just a non-practicing Muslim in the same way as Breivik was a non-practicing Christian?
My main beef as with another recent thread is the PC press who make sure the truth is subsidiary to their opinion, a stance which in the long run does nobody any favours. Merry X-Mas by the way.
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We are biased, admit the stars of BBC News
By SIMON WALTERS, Mail on Sunday
The secret report at heart of BBC’s Gaza paranoia
Thanks for that Pakboong, it underlines what I've been stating and it has been going on for simply ages and with much of the mainstream 'news' networks too, which helps explain how the myth of the Palestinian people was able to become accepted 'fact'.
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/12/in-post-news-environment-media-no.html
The very word Palestine is indeed Roman and the irony is the letter 'P' does not directly translate in Palestinian Arabic so Palestine becomes Balestine and the PLO the BLO. But then again.
In the post-news environment, media no longer exists to report, it exists to disseminate glib talking points that sound good at first, but don't stand up to examination. Fact checks, one of the latest media gimmicks, have become another vector for disseminating talking points. So have media blogs which began repeating the same ridiculous thing over and over again.
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As always, there are two sides to every story, here's what the BBC has to say:
http://news.bbc.co.u...000/9667737.stm
There are still shepherds in Bethlehem 2000 years on from the nativity but as our West Bank correspondent Jon Donnison reports, Jewish settlement expansion there has made the life of the shepherd increasingly limited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-16325524
Once predominantly Christian, two-thirds of Bethlehem's 50,000 residents are now Muslim.
Some say the economic restrictions imposed by Israel are the main reason behind the exodus of Christians from the West Bank; others cite persecution by militant Muslims.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is attending the celebrations.
He said: "I wish for the Palestinian people that next year will be the year of implementing peace in the occupied Palestinian lands."
Let’s hope his wish comes true.
Nice try, good old BBC, they of the independently commissioned Balen report to investigate their alledged anti-Israel bias; a report they then refused to make public and spent a heap of license payers money on court orders to keep it private.
The fact is that the Christian population of Israel increased 4 fold since 1948, whereas in every single Arab Country it decreased dramatically, and who can blame them with churches being burned, their women being kidnapped and every other aspect of Dhimmi status in Muslim lands making their lives hell.
http://www.jcrelations.net/Christians_in_the_Middle_East.608.0.html
We, the leaders of The Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding, are distressed over the decline of Christians throughout the Middle East. In the last 50 years, the Christian populations in the region have dropped significantly in every country except Israel. This trend has accelerated in the last 10 years.
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"Membership allows a country to bring to the world that which it cherishes most - the wealth of its culture, the resonance of its dreams for mutual understanding," Bokova said, underlining that the Palestinian people, as all peoples, must be able to preserve their culture and heritage.
Unlike Mr. Bokova, I do not wish to see the culture of jihad and prejudice preserved, nor do I believe it is a heritage to be proud of. In respect to the resonance for mutual understanding, there is no resonance since there is no stated goal for mutual understanding: It is the arab way or no way.
If UNESCO was assisting in the development of great thinkers or artists or scientists, I could understand, but there do not appear to be any in the PLA territories. Sorry, if that is harsh, but if anyone can name a brilliant scientist that changed the world for the better to come out of that region, excluding the Israelis, in the past 100 years, please let me know.
Actually I'd seriously be interested in what Palestinian culture is being funded by UNESCO, I would assume Bethlehem would be a priority with it's famous church of the Nativity, though this shows considerable chutzpah considering Christians have been leaving in droves. In 1950 Bethlehem was 80% Christian, now it is less than 15% I think UNESCO should ask why, 'mutual understanding' indeed.
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Pretty mild compared to praising Hitler, I would say, wouldn't you agree?Congratulations Palestine and UNESCO.
The usual suspects trashing anything Palestinian or Arab, and amounts to nothing more than rabid racial hatred.
Who is praising Hitler ????
No one, so why do you feel the need bring it up. ?
Why not take a festive break from the constant proslytising.
Happy new year.
Actually, if you ever bothered to read the link I posted (from a mainstream UK paper I might add) you would be aware that UNESCO cut the funding to a Palestinian youth magazine for a feature admiring Hitler. I guess you enablers need to be left as much in the dark as possible concerning your favoured group to stop your heads exploding.
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It looks like the honeymoon period is over for Palestine's UNESCO membership as within weeks they have cut funding to a Palestinian youth magazine for blatant anti-antisemitism. Actually maybe it's good in some ways that UNESCO recognize Palestine if it means they are held to some minimum standards of acceptable behaviour.
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Hmm, I think in areas where people are operating dangerous machinery, driving cars or flying planes drug tests should be mandatory, but frankly many menial unskilled jobs are so dehumanizing that a spliff at the end of the day should not make any difference to their work performance. As for the unemployed I think the same principles should apply instead of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut by testing everyone.
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We have a similar incident in Syria, when there are no more infidels to fight one might have thought peace might prevail.
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I wish I had any optimism, however I don't - the following news today speaks for itself sadly.
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To be honest with you, I have a higher opinion of the Israelis than I do of the Palestinians; therefore much higher expectations of their integrity.
Thank you for your candour. I suspect your view is widely held both here and amongst European governments, the trouble with it is that if you allow someone to get away with a lower standard of behaviour they will not disappoint you - Indeed perhaps this is why Hamas were against the Fatah led application for statehood as with it might come some undesired accountability.
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If Erdogan goes to France, will he be subject to jail time and fine for minimizing the genocide?
You have a good point there. I'm reminded of a UK law change allowing universal jurisdiction for crimes against humanity, which was used by some to threaten to have Israeli politicians arrested if they set foot in the UK. I suspect the realpolitik of the situation is that Erdogan would be perfectly safe to travel to Paris and say what he likes, just as holocaust denier Ahmadinejad seems to have no trouble attending the UN meetings in New York.
P.S I didn't mean to report you to yourself, but the new format makes that possible especially when I can't find my reading specs.
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It truly is amazing how far Turkey is able to spit it's dummy out of the pram.
The words about press freedom and freedom of expression are particularly rich considering how many journalists Erdogan has thrown in jail for not towing the party line, alas given time he will completely reverse Turkey's position as the first and only Muslim democracy which Ataturk took decades to build. -
The 1967 borders would be a good starting point for good faith negotiations. But the reality is now it is no longer 1967 and Israel has different security concerns than she did back then. There is in theory a place where people of good faith on both sides could come together. The trouble is there are way too many Israeli right wingers and way too many Palestinians who won't give up the dream of kicking all the Jews out. A formula for peace that ain't.
This is why in my first post on the thread I put there is no solution. I would not say that anyone on this thread is a 'fanatic'. We can't agree and to be honest if most of us met down the pub we would get on famously despite our entrenched views on here where part of our alter ego can flex. However in both Israel and Palestine there are people who are frighteningly fanatical, there ego is not something that emerges on an anonymous internet site, it is real. These people are violent and will never relent or compromise under any circumstance. the net result is that it is doubtful there will ever be peace in the region in our lifetimes.
As with your views on the late Christopher Hitchens I find myself largely agreeing with you. There is a religious right wing in Israel which punches more than it's own weight unfortunately due in part to the proportional representation element of the electoral system. Alas the views on the Arab mainstreet are far more entrenched and extreme due largely to the hate propaganda they are fed from birth. If you examine the instances where Israel has signed peace treaties with Muslim majority nations you will find one democracy, Turkey and two autocracies Egypt and Jordan, never ever will you get an Islamic theocracy making peace with Israel, just read their theology to realize why. It is estimated that Saudi Arabia has spent $89 billion trying to spead it's Wahhabi doctrine throughout the west; this is quite explicit in calling for the elimination of Israel. This underlines what I have always suspected; this is not about land at all, the dispute is between Israel and Islamism the so called Palestinians don't even have it within their gift to make peace unless the Islamic theocracies also agree to, which they never will any more than they will relinquish a single blade of grass anywhere on Earth where they once ruled over.
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I'm not even asking them to give the land back presently. For the sake of argtument, I accept your side's premise they still have hostile relations with their neighbor and it would be imprudent to re-cede these lands back the previous occupiers at this time. That said, what on earth could be the good faith argument for settling these lands? With each passing year it looks like they have absolutely no intention of EVER returning these lands and that IMO makes a mockery of any so called negotiations.
The settlements are as much an internal Israeli issue as an external one, Israel has a shortage of affordable housing and a tiny Country on which to build, indeed there were large demonstrations within Israel partly over this issue. You could also invert your question and ask when the Palestinians have ever themselves shown good faith in restraining themselves from violent attacks on Israel, indeed this was the reciprocal precondition in UN res 242 twinned with the one calling on Israel not to build on so called disputed land. It would appear the UN focus ever since has been one sided and not reciprocal.
Actually just to briefly revisit your point, can I ask you whether you would consider unilaterally giving back Gaza was acting in good faith or not, or indeed offering no less than 97% of the territory won in 1967 during the peace talks in 2000? I would suggest your suggestion that the Israeli position will never change doesn't bear historical scrutiny. Furthermore the Palestinian response to both these events showed zero intention to ever negotiate in good faith, which is indeed the one thing they have been 100% consistent with.
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I'm not even asking them to give the land back presently. For the sake of argtument, I accept your side's premise they still have hostile relations with their neighbor and it would be imprudent to re-cede these lands back the previous occupiers at this time. That said, what on earth could be the good faith argument for settling these lands? With each passing year it looks like they have absolutely no intention of EVER returning these lands and that IMO makes a mockery of any so called negotiations.
The settlements are as much an internal Israeli issue as an external one, Israel has a shortage of affordable housing and a tiny Country on which to build, indeed there were large demonstrations within Israel partly over this issue. You could also invert your question and ask when the Palestinians have ever themselves shown good faith in restraining themselves from violent attacks on Israel, indeed this was the reciprocal precondition in UN res 242 twinned with the one calling on Israel not to build on so called disputed land. It would appear the UN focus ever since has been one sided and not reciprocal.
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Here's another question that never gets answered, let's start with a quiz, who wrote the following?
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/18157
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.
Answer PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein in 1977 in an interview with a Dutch newspaper.
Which kind of begs the question, exactly whose land have the Israelis supposedly occupied and would giving some back make one iota of difference to the annhialationists.
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@Pakboong, I see you are at it again, demonizing the victim with the acts of the perpetrator, not as ambitious as blaming 9/11 on the Jews but you get my drift.
These threads remind me of a magician mis-directing the gaze of the audience so they don't focus on what the other hand is doing, which is how the UN gets sidetracked to Israeli settlement plans when there is wholesale slaughter all around. There are two questions which bear answering, though I suspect no answers will be forthcoming.
1) Can anyone find ANY reference to anyone complaining about either Egypt occupying the Gaza strip from 1948 through to 1967 or indeed Jordan occupying the so called west bank over the same time period? In other words it only counts as occupation if Israelis are doing the occupying.
2) Given the precedent of Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza and dismantling of settlements being met with a constant hail of missiles who in their right mind would give an inch of land more without cast iron guarantees the same would not follow any withdrawal from the west bank?
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As I wrote, everything from here on in is just theatre, the die have been cast.
http://www.debka.com/article/21589/
Iran has embarked on "activities related to possible weaponization," said American sources Wednesday, Dec. 22, thereby accounting for the dramatic reversal of the Obama administration's wait-and-see attitude on attacking Iran.
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Steely
Your comment regarding the ICRC stating there is no Humanitarian Crisis in Palestine is based on a fabrication. It appeared on an IDF website and was never verified. An independent, objective group of progressive Jewish researchers asked the ICRC for clarification on the issue. The ICRC responded by saying
‘the article was edited and therefore, does not reflect ICRC’s view of the current humanitarian situation in Gaza. Independently from what has been reported, what is important is that the situation is grave and serious.’they went on to add
‘Regarding the article published by IDF web site please be aware that it contains many inaccuracies and, as such, does not fully reflect ICRC’s view of the situation in Gaza. The life of 1.5 million people in the Strip is far from being a normal and dignified life. The extremely high unemployment rate, the lack of freedom of movement, the problematic access to healthcare, clean water and sanitation, as well as the continuous threat of violence affects the lives of Gaza people on a daily basis. In addition, an almost absolute ban on exports and limited imports hamper a sustainable economic recovery, which is essential to any viable development.’I'm sure it's no holiday camp, but the blame for that lays squarely on the shoulders of it's leaders. Incidentally you have not commented on the world health organization statistics, have radical Zionists infiltrated that organization as well?
As for the Gazan economy, it's actually growing very quicky, like 28% in a year - so much for the so called blockade, but sorry if facts get in the way of your narrative.
http://www.economist.com/node/21530173
UNLIKE Mahmoud Abbas’s Palestinian Authority—scattered under Israel’s occupation like inkspots on paper—Hamas, the Islamist group that runs Gaza, controls its territory, borders, security and trade. Depending less on capricious foreign aid, Gaza also enjoys “exceptionally high” economic growth, according to the latest World Bank report.
I think exceptionally high growth is consistent with the videos of shopping malls and 5 star hotels you can readily find online if you care to look.
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of course an Iranian applying for a gun license in the U.S. would be turned down and so would any American be turned down if he applied for one in Iran.
where's the beef?
Ok, your point also boils down to an equivalence argument, indeed the inmates of a mental asylum may be as convinced their warders are nuts, just as the warders think the inmates are. I would suggest an objective third party would be needed in an ideal world and would suggest organizations such as Amnesty international and Freedom house would be a good place to start, and then there is the simple test as to which Countries are signatories to the Universal human rights declaration.
Actually leaders apart Iran has the potential to be a great Country and from what I've read many of their citizens seem far more favorably disposed towards the U.S regime than their own, which does not apply in reverse, except perhaps with the exception of some of our esteemed posters here.
Turkey suspends all ties with France after approval of Armenian genocide bill
in World News - Discussion
I think you are correct in that a fair deal of politicking is behind this, but this did not happen in a vacuum; France has a large (even by European standards) and problematic immigrant population and multi-culturalism has clearly failed, so much so that French elections are now effectively between the right and the far right. I would be in favour of no laws against free speech, provided there is a basis in fact concerning what is said, but when it comes to dirty laundry I suspect that those complaining about this ' anti-free speech' legislation have far more to cover up themselves and Turkey has a record of locking up people who don't tow the party line.