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atlbravosfan
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Posts posted by atlbravosfan
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~~~It's cute that you think you can look up the word 'Buddha' in the dictionary and understand all the complex ways that term can be applied. I mean, obviously the dictionary is the go-to source to understand philosophy.~~~
Finally. You admit you are referring to your own philosophy and not facts.
~~~Also, convenient that you had no response at all about how all caterpillars become butterflies and that causes and effects have no role to play in whether or not the develop~~~
Sorry, I got bored repeating myself refuting my disagreement with your admitted philosophies. I deal in facts.
Yeah, like Newton's laws and how they perfectly applied to all aspects of reality. Oh wait, they were overturned.
Or how Special Relativity helped us overcome the issues Newton couldn't foresee.. oh wait, those were overturned too.
Science is not fact. Science is merely replacing an understanding with something that is less false. You clearly haven't taken too many science classes... not to mention, a lot of science starts out as as philosophy or is purely mathematical until there is devised a way to test for results which can be measured.
The Higgs-boson was just philosophy until last year, how hard did you laugh at those people and their lack of facts?
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~~~Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen.~~~
Wow, so you must believe in God then, huh? If things don't happen for a reason (as in, there is no cause behind the event occurring) you must have no problem with the existence of God the creator of the entire Universe!
Look everyone! It's magic! Things just happen without cause! I got sick for no reason! My dog died for no reason! I broke my arm for no reason!
The creation of everything is unexplainable as we do not have the scientific knowledge available to us yet, possibly because we have been following ancient texts.
Or possibly because we lacked the technology to investigate certain aspects of existence? Perhaps it's because science can't actually deliver answers to all the questions because some of the questions are unanswerable?
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~~~Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen.~~~
Wow, so you must believe in God then, huh? If things don't happen for a reason (as in, there is no cause behind the event occurring) you must have no problem with the existence of God the creator of the entire Universe!
Look everyone! It's magic! Things just happen without cause! I got sick for no reason! My dog died for no reason! I broke my arm for no reason!
No, I dont believe in gods or a creator of the universe. I also dont believe your strange philosophies either.
Yeah, that strange philosophy of cause and effect. Totally not true.
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~~~There is no 'law' of cause and effect with regard to karma because you are referring to cause and effect in a spiritual sense. That is merely a philosophy. This is different to cause and effect when applied to Newtons principal that everything has an equal and oposite reaction (which can be measured and therefore is proven to exist). They are two different interpretations of cause and effect. You dont seem to be able to see the difference. One is based on fact and doesn't involve 'karma' (which I do believe as it has been proven on a scientific basis) the other is a fairytale mumbo-jumbo philosophy that cannot be proven which I obviously don't believe.~~~
Interesting choice of bolded words... notice how I italicized and underlined an important section you conveniently left out - I'm not talking about cause and effect only in a 'spiritual sense.' Yes, cause and effect takes place in an immaterial way, but it also takes effect in a material way. Karma refers to the cause and effect relationship of both material and immaterial worlds. You are the one with the one-sided argument as you only take into consideration the material world and completely ignore the immaterial world.
An example of an immaterial world - your thoughts, your emotions, your ideas. Are you going to refute that those terms are immaterial? If I were to break open my head, would thoughts come spilling out?
Again, there is a lot of research being done recently on the physical effects of meditation - basically, what effects our thoughts have on the way our brain operates and reshapes itself. It's called neuroplasticity and it is occurring with every passing thought in your mind. That is based on observable fact, verified by independent research over the course of many years. Want to refute that one?
The immaterial has an effect on the material and the material has an effect on the immaterial. Again, a pretty obvious fact that you yourself can, and do, experience on a daily basis.
You sure nailed me to the wall on that one!! Was that focused enough for you?
It's cute that you think you can look up the word 'Buddha' in the dictionary and understand all the complex ways that term can be applied. I mean, obviously the dictionary is the go-to source to understand philosophy.
Also, convenient that you had no response at all about how all caterpillars become butterflies and that causes and effects have no role to play in whether or not the develop... -
~~~Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen.~~~
Wow, so you must believe in God then, huh? If things don't happen for a reason (as in, there is no cause behind the event occurring) you must have no problem with the existence of God the creator of the entire Universe!
Look everyone! It's magic! Things just happen without cause! I got sick for no reason! My dog died for no reason! I broke my arm for no reason! -
If I were speaking to a group 2500 years ago I would use their language, if their language did not have the vocabulary needed, I would show them. Say I was to make some butter (which I am just about to do), and I was to show a group of people without the vocabulary how to do this, then I would give a practical presentation. I would let them see that the fat rises to the top because it is lighter by showing them fat in different liquids; or by using a simple crossbar scales to compare the weight of liquid fat to water by volume. Basically I would show them via repeatable method. I certainly would not suggest it was due to the karma of the fat, or that it happened because some deity is happy that we slaughtered the sheep that fat came from. Of course this does mean that right hand man of the deity goes hungry.
To give an even more obvious and clear example, up and down, I would release a weight to see where it goes, where it goes is down, as it is attracted by the gravitational mass of the largest thing local to it. In the language of today that is down, you may call it what you like, but I like to call it the same as everyone else, that way there's less confusion and less opportunity for charlatans to prey on those that do not know. This can be shown anywhere at anytime as simply as releasing a rock from the hand, it is peer tested experimentation with a known result. This is what I would be teaching so people could develop and investigate on their own, it's not because of some superstition that you can pay me 1 gold piece for, to continue
myyour good fortune.In the video, what is being discussed, is that we may call something by a name but we do not know why it is, an example of this is gravity (see above) we do not know why there is what we call gravity, but we may one day via scientific research. I don't think we will learn what it actually is by reading stories made up about people hundreds of years after they died. But sure, slaughter another sheep, pass it on to the man / conveyor / conduit and he'll eat it in the deities name so that you will not crushed down by the force of gravity, mind you, he may have trouble walking around himself after eating all that meat.
Of course a caterpillar doesn't look to become a butterfly, it's genetics, by telling people it's spiritual or karma you are holding them back.
You must have missed my previous responses to Kananga. Karma is not purely spiritual, it is also a physical reality. Karma simply means cause and effect. We can study the underlying causes of something and understand how we reached the effect we currently have.
If we study the properties of the butter, we will see what makes butter rise to the top of water. Don't get hung up on the term 'karma' being a spiritual or immaterial thing. It reflects on both immaterial and material realities, neither of which can be denied. We are living in both of these worlds simultaneously and karma takes effect in both worlds simultaneously.
There is nothing about Buddha's teachings on karma which discuss some deity being the reason things happen. Buddha simply states - this is because that is. This is not because that is not.
Now again, to the 'idea' of up and down, this is simply an idea coming from our own perspective, our own vantage point. If I were to point up in the sky, all the people around me would agree that I was pointing in the direction called 'up'. If I were to point down to the earth, everyone around me would agree that I was pointing in the direction called 'down.' On the opposite side of the earth, my up is their down, my down is their up. Up and down are brought about due to my own mind - they are merely abstract concepts used to help us grapple with the world around us and to communicate with each other. They are not solid, they are very fluid. Now, this is not about the 'definition' of up and down, it is more about the practical experience of what I call up and what I call down.
In the video, Feynman is also discussing how we have many terms for the same thing and that just because different cultures and people use different terms, it doesn't really make one of the terms more or less correct.
Karma means cause and effect. If we taught people about a cause and effect based world, I doubt any of you would object to that teaching - or do you believe that things happen without cause? Simply, by not understanding what the meaning of 'karma' is, doesn't make karma any less relevant or important of a teaching. Karma is just a name, just a label applied to an experience, something that is observable and can be tested again and again by any person anywhere at any time. Isn't that what 'science' is?
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~~~A caterpillar doesn't have to look for ways to become a butterfly - that happens as a natural process of cause and effect.~~~
No. That happens through biological changes that happen naturally throughout its lifespan. Its not cause and effect. It didnt have a an action (cause) that created a reaction (effect) otherwise some caterpillars would not become butterflies based on their actions. As they all do regardless of how they conduct their little lives cause and effect doesnt enter into it. You can try and argue with facts all you want, but it really isnt working.
~~~To give you an even more obvious and clear example, what I call 'up' others call 'down.' What I call 'down' others call 'up.' Am I right and they are wrong? Or are they wrong and I am right? Or are we both right and we just use different words, that actually seem to be opposites? Or are we both wrong and there is no 'up' or 'down'?~~~
The meaning of the word up -
(1) : in or into a higher position or level; especially : away from the center of the earth (2) : from beneath the ground or water to the surface (3) : from below the horizon (4) :upstream 1 (5) : in or into an upright position <sit up>;especially : out of bed
If you were referring to any of these actions and using the word 'down' you were wrong. If you were referring to any of these actions as 'up' and others were referring to them as 'down' they were wrong. Crazy huh?
~~~The Buddha is not something you can conceive of nor that you can talk about. It is only something that can be experienced - like everything else in our lives.~~~
Absolute rubbish. We're talking about him now. As for not being able to talk about anything in your life you havent experienced, absolute rubbish too. You were just talking about caterpillars becoming butterflies I assume you are not a butterfly and have therefore not personally experienced the metamorphosis of changing into a butterfly. Yet you have just clearly just talked about it. Spouting off these easily refutable phrases isn't making you look knowledgable in any state. In fact you look quite ridiculous. Which ironically is a great example of cause and effect based on what you are spouting out.
~~~You seem to be really hung up on the naming of things.~~~
Yep. Thats what people who know what they are talking about do. They use names and words they understand the meaning of.
So, what I call 'up' a person standing on the other side of the earth would also refer to that direction as 'up'? No, they would actually refer to the direction I am pointing in as 'down'. My 'up' is their 'down,' my 'down' is their 'up.' It's really not that difficult to understand the point I am making. 'Up' and 'Down' come from my own perspective and vantage point. Crazy huh?
~~~Absolute rubbish. We're talking about him now.~~~
Again with the point about 'Buddha' - you are hung up on the idea of the man, the historical Buddha. I am not talking about the historical Buddha, I am talking about the understanding to which he attained, an understanding that is attainable for all of us. That is what is meant by 'Buddha.'
I also discussed how words are not the Truth, they cannot express the Truth. I gave you the example of someone who had never eaten an orange; if they wanted to know what the experience of eating an orange is, they can only taste it for themselves. This is what I mean when I say that concepts are limited and do not express the Truth. I can give analogies about things, but have I directly experienced what it feels like to transform into a butterfly? Have you? Can you tell me about it in words so that I will have a complete understanding of that experience? Did my words about a caterpillar's transition or the growth of fruit from a tree give you the understanding that a butterfly or a tree has about those experiences?
~~~No. That happens through biological changes that happen naturally throughout its lifespan. Its not cause and effect. It didnt have a an action (cause) that created a reaction (effect) otherwise some caterpillars would not become butterflies based on their actions. As they all do regardless of how they conduct their little lives cause and effect doesnt enter into it. You can try and argue with facts all you want, but it really isnt working.~~~
You must be some world-renowned naturalist with that type of insight. Really? All caterpillars become butterflies? What about the caterpillars that are eaten? What about ones that are suffocated by juices from plants they are eating? Those guys become butterflies? Or maybe, there is some cause and effect relationship involved in the caterpillar's development. Did the food the caterpillar ingested help it along the process? Or do caterpillars just eat for fun? Was there an initial cause that brought the caterpillar into existence? Or do caterpillars just magically appear out of thin air? Keep spinning away spin master...
~~~Yep. Thats what people who know what they are talking about do. They use names and words they understand the meaning of.~~~
Yep, that's why I use the term 'karma' - because I understand the meaning of the term, something that seems to be escaping you for some reason. I'd guess it is because of the barrier of knowledge - you think you already got it all figured out and that you can't learn from these teachings so you just close your mind off to the possibility. You probably didn't even watch the Feynman video, or else you'd know the difference between 'knowing something' and 'knowing the name of something.'
What's ironic is that you clearly understand that the universe is based on cause and effect and yet you refute it time and time again. Oh right, because you don't believe in Karma... which means cause and effect... which you agree with...
You seem like an intelligent person, but you also seem to be obstinately refusing to understand the simplest of terms and the simplest of relationships possible. Karma means cause and effect; nothing in this universe exists without cause and all causes are in turn effects from prior causes.
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No. The way a plant grows is its genetics. Genetics, unlike karma can also be proved scientifically. If you stay up really late and are tired the next day the effect is biological, not karma. Biology, unlike karma can also be proved scientifically. You are just choosing to use the word karma to attempt to explain biological actions. You are still attempting to pass off philosophy as fact. Which it isnt.
~~~What I personally believe is that our consciousness dies and is reborn from moment to moment~~~
LOL. At least you now accept that this is only your personal belief and cannot be proven scientifically and is therefore open to doubt (and ridicule). You carry on looking for that buddha in your own mind. Be sure to tell us when you find him.
You seem to be really hung up on the naming of things. Do you not understand how to different cultures can have two different ways of saying the same thing? That perhaps speaking to a group of people who lived 2500 years ago, it makes more sense for someone to use language that they can actually understand rather than some language that had not even been invented yet for that culture?
To give you an even more obvious and clear example, what I call 'up' others call 'down.' What I call 'down' others call 'up.' Am I right and they are wrong? Or are they wrong and I am right? Or are we both right and we just use different words, that actually seem to be opposites? Or are we both wrong and there is no 'up' or 'down'?
Since you seem to be all about science and scientists and completely distrusting of anything else, see what Richard Feynman's take on this is... or do you suppose you understand the science better than he does?
Also, the 'Buddha-within' is not 'him.' It is not a being, it is not non-being, it is beyond duality and dualistic thinking. It is not something I have to 'look for' either; it is something that arises as a natural result of a process, cause and effect. A caterpillar doesn't have to look for ways to become a butterfly - that happens as a natural process of cause and effect. A tree does not have to look for ways to grow fruit - that happens as a natural process of cause and effect.
The Buddha is not something you can conceive of nor that you can talk about. It is only something that can be experienced - like everything else in our lives. I could never tell someone who had not tasted an orange before what the complete experience of eating an orange is. The only way for them to know it is to experience it themselves.
Believe it or not, there is a lot of scientific research being conducted on meditation and on the effects it has on consciousness, but keep on believing that I'm the one with backward thinking not open to new ideas or to questioning the ideas I already hold.
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In reference to the many names of Buddha, the one he purportedly preferred toward the end of his life was 'Tathagatha' which has dual meaning:
'One who has thus gone'
'One who has thus come'I think this was done to remove the meaning of the word 'Buddha' which means 'Awakened One' as the 'One' implies separation and an independent ego-entity. Tathagatha shows the conquest over dualistic thinking by simultaneously expressing seemingly opposing ideas - going and coming.
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Thanks for posting this by the way. I was wondering if you had something more concrete or a particular website in mind? A lot of these are just random people posting on message boards (... what does that sound like...).
Yes many are just people blathering on, this one is interesting though, you need to scroll down to the last few sentences.
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/historical-buddha.html
Thanks again for pointing me in a clearer direction.
As I'm sure you saw in my response to the other poster, it really doesn't matter if he was real or not; it is the teachings, the Dharma, that really matters. All the other stuff is just for interest's sake!
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true Buddhism asks that you believe only what you see and what makes sense, that which are seen with your 5 senses.Superstition stuff you ask? Millions (billions?) of people still believe in religion. It's the same thing.
It is not faith based, so how is it related to superstition being that it is a way of living.
I didn't mention Buddhism; I just said religion in general. Technically, Buddhism is not a religion so much as it is a way of living a pure way of life. Unfortunately, very few humans beyond the age of young children are pure. Most have been indoctrinated into the many nasty practises of humans. Buddhist monks are no different. Most of us are inflicted somewhat with greed, avarice, jealousy, and some sort of sexuality that affects all of us. We've all heard the nasty stories of Catholic and Anglican priests. Why would Buddhist monks be any different. Nasty stories of what goes on within Islamic and Hindi groups are legend.
It only stands to reason that leaders in any group will change the original doctrines to suit their own needs.
This has happened with Buddha's teachings as well. However, I would like to point out that most of those other religions (especially the Abrahamic ones) have teachings that you are not good enough on your own to work out your own problems. You need help from something outside of you - God, Jesus, whatever.
The Buddha's teachings are that we have all the answers inside. There is a cause of everything that we experience - that anger, jealousy, avarice you mentioned - and ultimately we are in charge of dealing with that cause, that we are actually able to remove the cause itself. When we understand what causes illness, we are able to remove the cause and health reveals itself. In the same way, when we are able to understand the cause of ignorance - which leads to all the unhealthy states of mind, which in turn lead to destructive words and actions - we are able to remove the cause of ignorance and wisdom and compassion will reveal themselves.
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There are big doubts about Buddhas existance too.
Not saying you are incorrect about there being 'big doubts' about the existence of the historical Buddha, but do you have any sources for those doubts? I just did a quick search myself and nothing of note turned up; especially not in the way when I google 'people doubt existence of Jesus'
"evidence for Buddha "
Thanks for posting this by the way. I was wondering if you had something more concrete or a particular website in mind? A lot of these are just random people posting on message boards (... what does that sound like...).
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'Karma' has no place in the scientific community. It cannot be observed, measured or be proven to exist. Its very fundamentals go against reason and logic. It is a fairytale doctrine used to great effect in controlling the masses and ensuring that through fear there is ongoing donations, I mean devotion to the buddhist cult. I mean sect. Thats it, devotion to the sect. Dont know where I got donations to the cult from. Silly me.
Well, I've already explained to you that Karma simply means the law of cause and effect. This is because that is. This is not because that is not.
One thing causes another thing to exist. No thing can exist independently of other things. Do you not believe in cause and effect?
There is no 'law' of cause and effect with regard to karma because you are referring to cause and effect in a spiritual sense. That is merely a philosophy. This is different to cause and effect when applied to Newtons principal that everything has an equal and oposite reaction (which can be measured and therefore is proven to exist). They are two different interpretations of cause and effect. You dont seem to be able to see the difference. One is based on fact and doesn't involve 'karma' (which I do believe as it has been proven on a scientific basis) the other is a fairytale mumbo-jumbo philosophy that cannot be proven which I obviously don't believe.
Do you believe in re-incarnation?
Karma is not merely spiritual (rather, immaterial). It also refers to material phenomena as well. The way a plant grows is its karma, inherited from its ancestors as well as environmental factors. Another example I could give for physical karma would be if I stayed up really late watching movies, the next day at work I will be dead tired - that is my karma. Karma can also be thought of like momentum - it is carrying us in particular directions and every action (thought, speech, or bodily) has a particular karma it carries. The fact that you believe karma is purely immaterial shows your lack of understanding of karma, not my lack of understanding of Newton's Laws.
As far as reincarnation goes, Buddha instructed us to use the teaching of non-self in order to dissolve the idea of 'self,' the idea that there is something permanent and unchanging that is inside of us or inside of anything, really. He instructed us to look deeply into any phenomenon and see how it is made up of many different parts. If we look at a flower, we do not see a 'flower' inside of it - instead, we see the rain, the sun, the earth, time, space, nutrients, the seed it came from. Everything we experience is the same way. This teaching is called 'inter-being' - the idea that we are all interconnected to each other, to other animals, to plants, to the earth, to the entire universe. Believe it or not, this is confirmed by science as well: 'We are connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the universe atomically' - Neil Degrasse Tyson.
The Buddha refuted the idea of transmigration, which is a Brahmin teaching - that we have an Atman (soul) that is eternal and unchanging an it moves from life to life. The teaching of no-self is also called 'anatman' (no Atman) or 'anatta.' Keep in mind that this is a tool used to eradicate the idea of self, not to supplant the idea of self with the idea of non-self. Non-self is still just an idea and it is not something we should get caught in. The Buddha's teachings are like a raft - they take us to where we want to go. When we reach the other shore, the raft has outlived its purpose and becomes a burden - it must be let go of in order to fully realize the teachings.
What I personally believe is that our consciousness dies and is reborn from moment to moment as we encounter different sense-impressions. These sense-impressions give rise to mental formations (thoughts, ideas, emotions), which in turn reshape our consciousness. Everything we experience is stored as a seed deep within our consciousness and we received seeds at birth from our parents, passed down through our ancestors. Some of these seeds are physical characteristics, some of them are immaterial characteristics - as in, how we deal with situations, what language we use, even what type of words we use from that language (our diction).
Believe it or not, the Buddha-nature, the ability to become Buddha, is a seed in our store consciousness as well. We all have the ability to become Buddha. That is why, really, it doesn't even matter if there was a historical Buddha or not - because there have been various Buddhas who have lived, who are for sure historical figures with plenty of evidence. Even in this very day we have Buddhas who are living on this earth and helping guide people to the understanding to which they have realized. The Buddha is said to have instructed his students to not get caught on his physical body, the way he looked. If we really wanted to see the Buddha, he said, we should look deeply into the teachings. When we realize the teachings, we will see the real Buddha, the Buddha of our own mind.
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'Karma' has no place in the scientific community. It cannot be observed, measured or be proven to exist. Its very fundamentals go against reason and logic. It is a fairytale doctrine used to great effect in controlling the masses and ensuring that through fear there is ongoing donations, I mean devotion to the buddhist cult. I mean sect. Thats it, devotion to the sect. Dont know where I got donations to the cult from. Silly me.
Well, I've already explained to you that Karma simply means the law of cause and effect. This is because that is. This is not because that is not.
One thing causes another thing to exist. No thing can exist independently of other things. Do you not believe in cause and effect?
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If you read many of my posts you will see I mention numerous times that Thai people mix it with animism.
Ancient tribal beliefs, I just get the feeling your assuming all are not doing it right.
If you are not then I apologize.
Honestly, I bet you deal with a lot of stereotyping, especially posting on these forums. You probably deal with quite a bit of arrogance and hostility as well, so I understand where you are coming from.
I had a talk recently with a Muslim friend of mine about why people think of Muslims in a certain way. We were discussing history, events, teachings - a wide variety of discussions. He then told me to stop painting all Muslims the same, to stop stereotyping them. It was like he was talking to someone else. I have numerous Muslim friends who are wonderful people and even have very similar beliefs to what I have. I draw inspiration from some Muslim sages as I believe they were on to something important as well. The Truth is not owned by one 'religion.' It is something all humanity has within themselves and all they have to do is look.
Likewise, I have many Thai friends who are incredible Buddhists. One of my best friends owns a restaurant in town and we discuss prices at other places - how the owners are just ripping tourists and 'farangs' off and they think nothing is wrong with it. They think the tourists and 'farangs' can afford to pay more, so why not? Similar thing with taxis and tuk-tuks around here (Phuket). My friend was telling me how these people claim to be Buddhist and then they don't follow any part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Because they lack Right View, they do not practice Right Livelihood. They are basically stealing, which is not practicing Right Action. They have improper thoughts about what they are doing and speak ill of 'farangs' and people with dark skin (I've heard monks here in Phuket say about my fiancee, 'Why is that black person here? They should leave our temple.' She speaks fluent Thai.) This leads to them not practicing Right Thought or Right Speech. I see many people just giving offerings because it is a 'good thing to do,' while they give me dirty looks while I am meditating but have nothing to offer for their altar. They are not practicing Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, or Right Concentration. Because they don't practice any part of the Noble Eightfold Path, I find it hard to call some people 'Buddhists.'
Another motto of mine: No generalization is completely true, not even this one. There are countless Thai people who practice true Dhamma and share in the fruits of the true Dhamma. Thailand can be a true Buddhaland and it doesn't have to be because the government made it the official religion; it will be because people are practicing, sharing, and living the true Dhamma.
I hope that clears up any miscommunication between us.
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There are big doubts about Buddhas existance too.
Not saying you are incorrect about there being 'big doubts' about the existence of the historical Buddha, but do you have any sources for those doubts? I just did a quick search myself and nothing of note turned up; especially not in the way when I google 'people doubt existence of Jesus'
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ok atlbravosfan. I would dearly love to continue what you call an intellectual conversation.
The problem is I lack the knowledge to do so, as you said at the beginning of this thread, being a Monk in my past does not make me an expert.
23 years as A Buddhist now and twice as a Monk, I will return to our discussion when I have the expertise to discuss the matter.
Good day.
I never said you lacked knowledge. In fact, I'm sure that we agree with each other on many or even most of the important points regarding Buddha's teachings.
My stab at you in my initial post is more of a reaction against 'appeals to authority.' Just because someone was a monk doesn't make them more qualified, as I'm sure you have met countless people who were never monks who know more about Buddha's teachings and put them into practice more often than some people who are wearing the robe.
This is not to say that you were not doing the right thing when you were a monk or even that you do not continue to do the right thing to this very day. It is just that the statement 'I was a monk' is kind of an empty statement unless you are going to relate a story about while you were a monk. It becomes something like a badge of honor that we reveal.
It reminds me of a story I heard once. A man went to go visit his friend who was a master. The man presented his card to a monk at the gate and said, 'Tell the master I am here to see him.' The monk brought the card to the master; it said the man's name and underneath it said 'Governor of XXXX Province.' The master gave the card back and said, 'I do not know this man, tell him to go away.' The monk told what the master said to the man. The man said, oh I apologize and he scratched his title off the card. 'Try again please?' When the master saw the card the second time he said, 'Oh of course! Tell him to come in right away!'
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true Buddhism asks that you believe only what you see and what makes sense, that which are seen with your 5 senses.Superstition stuff you ask? Millions (billions?) of people still believe in religion. It's the same thing.
It is not faith based, so how is it related to superstition being that it is a way of living.
I agree with this that Buddhism tells us to observe based on our own experiences and it is something that can be verified independently by any person who wishes to try. It is something you can verify in this very life, not something you have to wait until after this life to experience.
I would say though that there is always an element of faith in everything and faith is something that can help us in our progression down the Path. We just need to be smart about what we have faith in and how we go about using that faith.
Also, I would argue that we have six senses - five external and one internal.
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Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.
Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.
People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.
Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.
How exactly are you trying to help people? By forcing your fairytale beliefs down people's throats and stroking your own ego with your assumptions of superior knowledge of buddhism?
It defies belief how people get sucked into these fantasy beliefs. There must really be a big void in their lives if they are so willing to believe the ridiculous.
Can you show what 'fairy tale' beliefs I am forcing down people's throats? As far as I am concerned, Buddhism is equivalent to science. It is based on observation and experience.
I understand there are many stories and fairy tales which have been added through the years to give common people something to hold on to, but that is not what Buddhism is really about. It seems like quite a few of you are here to 'stroke your ego' since that is what you are often accusing others of. It could be that some come here to learn from others and to teach others what they know. Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something they can learn from anyone. This is my personal philosophy.
What makes me laugh is that everyone on here is taking part in a 'belief system,' just some of us seem to not know that.
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atlbravosfan is arguing with several people now, arguing with Buddist about what they believe when he is a Buddhist himself.
He is also arguing with non Buddhist and posting Buddhist quotes left right and centre whilst claiming he is not arguing he is having an intellectual conversation.
You take digs at people such as saying "You claim you were a monk,I doubt it" and then claim your not out for an argument, read back through your post, your not posting your counter punching every post you can find as you scroll through looking for opportunities to show your intellect.
What you are doing is preaching to a bunch of members who have no desire to be preached to by an American Buddhist who claims the Thai's have lost the way and American Buddhist's are on track and come on here like your the way.
you also pick pieces out of my post for eg saying you cant carry phones just for suicides, I never once said they did carry them just for that, second time you have posted my apparent thoughts on my behalf despite me not thinking or saying it.
Did you read the Buddhist section about ego, your soul purpose so far if you read back and i'm sure many would agree is an attempt to show your knowledge.
You have hit the temples in The states and your in the excited phase mode that beginners who are not born to it go through, yet to learn how little you know but talking like your journeys complete.
no body can have an intellectual conversation with you like your claiming to want because if you take note you are condescending, it's your way or the highway.
think about that if your ego allows.
Can you quote where I said I doubted you were a monk? I'll wait...
An intellectual conversation is, usually, a debate of some form. I never said we weren't debating or discussing the issues. What I said was that I was not upset by the discussion, I was not angered by it. That was your assertion. Indeed, if I see someone saying something I know to be untrue, I will attempt to help that person. Many times, people help me realize things I am saying or doing that are untrue or unskillful. It's all part of the process. I've never once made a claim that I have reached the goal, nor would I be so foolish to say so.
I've actually never been to a temple in the States, but just keep assuming that you know me and you know my emotional state. It seems to be working out pretty well for you so far.
I've actually been a Buddhist for about 6 years now and I've been to dozens of temples here in Thailand so I have a pretty good idea of Thai Buddhism. I've spoken with monks about complaints about Thai Buddhism, many of the monks agree with the assertions that Thai people are very consumed by superstition - so consumed by it that they do not work out their own enlightenment but are instead focused on gathering merit. If you are doing something to acquire merit - you gain no merit by that action. All you acquire are more attachments.
If I am being very condescending, can you point it out so I can be sure to avoid such an action in the future? I feel as though several posters have indeed been condescending but I also understand where they are coming from. Again, my intention was not to be condescending but to have a discussion about pertinent matters.
No offense, but many people in Thailand didn't 'lose' Buddhism... they never had it to begin with. There are no worship of land spirits, tree spirits, water spirits in Buddha's teachings; there are no praying to statues or givings offerings to the statues in Buddha's teachings; there is no hierarchy of monks, which is essentially a political development, in Buddha's teachings.
Indeed, there are instances of True Dhamma in Thailand, but they are few and far between. I see many more temples and monks giving improper teachings to Thai people, probably because these monks were improperly taught themselves. I don't think many of them teach this way or act this way because they want to do the wrong thing; I think they honestly believe they are doing the right thing.
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Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.
Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.
People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.
Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.
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Monks...!
Don't you mean Thai men and women in general, who merely don saffron robes and shave their heads for no apparent reason other than what we are told; and that should be good enough to censor any questions about the matter?
There should be a "Book of Deeds" that catalogs the life which every "monk" goes on to lead after leaving the "priesthood". What an eye opener that would be towards the integrity of what these people choose to altruistically uphold in faith and carry throughout their lives after such a life-changing event.
I must be a beggar, because my own sense of beliefs and views are always being beggared here.
You must be new here... didn't you know it is against Thai Buddhism to ordain women as equal to men in the monkhood? Didn't you know that monks can be 'excommunicated' (as if such a term existed in Buddhism) for ordaining women on equal level with men? Obviously, women are lower caliber so they are not fit for the saffron robe (it's actually orange in Thailand anyway)... they can only wear white and be subordinate!
Did Buddha say that women are not equal to men? I read the following :
In the fifth year of his ministry, the Buddha was staying at
Vesali when he heard that his father, King Suddhodana, was ill. He decided to
visit him again at Kapilavatthu to teach him the Dharma, and made the long
journey. After hearing the Dharma, the king immediately attained arahantship
and passed away peacefully seven days later. It was in this year that the order
of nuns was founded at the request of Maha Pajapati Gotami, the aunt and foster
mother of the Buddha.
Three times she approached the Buddha and asked him to ordain her
into the Sangha, but each time the Buddha refused, giving no reason at all.
After the Buddha had stayed at Kapilavatthu a while, he journeyed back to
Vesali.
Pajapati Gotami was a determined lady, and would not be so easily
discouraged. She had a plan to get her way. She cut her hair, put on yellow
garments and, surrounded by a large number of Sakyan ladies, walked 150 miles
from Kapilavatthu to Vesali. When she arrived at Vesali, her feet were swollen
and her body was covered with dust. She stood outside the hall where the Buddha
was staying with tears on her face, still hoping that the Buddha would ordain
her as a nun.
Ananda was surprised to see her in this condition. "Gotami,
why are you standing here like this?" he asked.
"Venerable Ananda, it is because the Blessed One does not
give permission for women to become nuns," she replied.
"Wait here, Gotami, I'll ask the Blessed One about
this," Ananda told her. When Ananda asked the Buddha to admit Maha
Pajapati Gotami as a nun, the Buddha refused. Ananda asked three times and
three times the Buddha refused.
So Ananda put the request in a different way. Respectfully he
questioned the Buddha, "Lord, are women capable of realising the various
stages of sainthood as nuns?"
"They are, Ananda," said the Buddha.
"If that is so, Lord, then it would be good if women could be
ordained as nuns," said Ananda, encouraged by the Buddha's reply.
"If, Ananda, Maha Pajapati Gotami would accept the Eight
Conditions* it would be regarded that she has been ordained already as a
nun."
When Ananda mentioned the conditions to Maha Pajapati Gotami, she
gladly agreed to abide by those conditions and automatically became a nun.
Before long she attained arahantship. The other Sakyan ladies who were ordained
with her also attained Arahantship.
The establishment of an order of nuns with rules and regulations
was an opportunity for women that Buddha offered for the first time in the
history of the world. No other religious leader had given such a high religious
position for women.
My post was sarcastic but it is true here in Thailand that men and women are not viewed equally. Look up Ajahn Brahm... he was ordained in the Thai Forest tradition and was a monk here for many years. Recently, he ordained women as full monks and the top monk of Thailand (despite Buddha purposely never setting up any kind of hierarchy like that) claimed to have 'excommunicated' Aj. Brahm and he is not welcome in Thailand anymore. Sorry for any confusion!
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If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.
If you think that's in some way 'hard', try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in some grimy factory and barely make enough to support your family as many do here...only then to feel some misguided spiritual need/social more, to have to give away your hard earned food to monks in the vain hope of an easier ride 'next time around'...
I've read some nonsense on here in the past, but that takes the biscuit.
Again, I ask the question, have you ever attempted to still your mind? Can you try for just a few breaths and see what it takes?
It is impossible to compare the difficulties from one life to another, but to claim that the life of a monk who is earnestly pursuing the Path is one of luxury and ease reveals someone who has never once attempted to turn the light inward and discover what lies within. I'm sure there are other lives spent living through disease, starvation, war, insane brutalities at home... it is indeed a luxury of some to have the ability to pursue the Path earnestly. It doesn't mean that having such a luxury somehow gives one a luxurious life.
Spend all your time and your life directing your light outward and you will never know the Truth. If we are able to turn the light around, even for a moment, we will be awakened to the Truth, an eternal Truth.
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congratulations..... you are an example of what the Buddha referred to as a person of bad influence. To keep company with a person of bad influence is the most dangerous thing, because they will lead you astray down the wrong path. You have succeeded in leading your wife astray, because of your own lack of understanding about Buddhism.My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.
After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.
It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.
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She, as many Thais, have a shallow and often incorrect understanding too... but she might have learned the truth, until you misdirected her away completely.
I feel sorry for you and the suffering you will receive as a result of the law of karma, which none can avoid.
A monk is forbidden to dig the soil or damage plants...therefore he cannot grow his own food....or even cook uncooked food.
He is only supposed to receive food which is ready to eat. By being completely dependant upon the lay people he should not be lazy about going out on alms-round, to show himself and be an example.
Monks who are too lazy to go on alms-round because lay people bring offering into the temple, often the abbots of the temples are like this, are doing the people a disservice. When receiving his alms-bowl during ordination, a monk is advised that it is his duty to go out on alms-round daily.
He cannot store food and anything left after midday should be given away.
The Thai lay followers who give offerings to monks are doing so out of respect for a one who should be trying to live the homeless life as the Buddha advised, keeping strict precepts, and giving up many of the ordinary pleasures people enjoy.
If the monk is not worthy of this respect because he is not living correctly, that is his own bad karma, and if his actions cause a person to lose respect for the Sangha or even Buddhism as a whole then he is in great danger.
Two points I should mention. I suggested to my wife that instead of blindly giving food and money to people who have cosen to avoid a life where they have to work and be self sufficient she could instead devote any surplus food or money to the many homeless people who are in a desperate situation often through no choice of their own. She now does this because it is the right thing to do, not because of some misplaced self serving effort to 'make merit' or some other self serving selfish action. For the majority of people in the world this change in action would lead one to believe they are actually now following a better path where offerings to people who need them have no self serving agenda and are done out of nothing more than a desire to do some good in the world and help people less fortunate with no expectations of reward.
Secondly, 'karma' is no more real than santa claus. A superstitious belief used to keep people who lack a moral compass in line to do good things because they dont have the strength to do good things without having the fear that bad things will happen to them if they don't.
My wife may have a lack of understanding about 'real buddhism', however you clearly have a lack of understanding of reality and separating fact from fiction. Karma indeed, dear oh dear.
If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.
You seem to think that Buddhism is somehow not scientific, that it is somehow superstitious. You haven't studied much Buddhism have you? Just seen what people do here in Thailand and assumed this is what Buddhism is?
'Forbidding people to be self sufficient eh? Sounds like the actions of a possessive cult leader to me.' - Again, the purpose of Buddhism is to achieve non-attachment in order to be released from suffering which we make ourselves. The Buddha, by defintion is not attached to anything - not even the concept of an ego-entity. How can one possess what one never had to begin with?
You also must have missed my post earlier where the Buddha discusses superstitions as being against the Way, being impediments to progress along the Path. Again, we can have an educated conversation about Buddhism if you would like, it seems that you have been miseducated and misinformed.
Controversial Thai monk appears on air purifier advertisement
in Thailand News
Posted
He is different because of the rules and integrity one should be following/upholding when becoming a Buddhist monk. Evangelists and Catholic priests have their own code, and neither of those, so far as I am aware, include owning bare minimum possessions.