atlbravosfan

Fabianfred, I think you're the one with a flawed understanding of how Buddhism works in Thailand...

Not even they take it as literally as you do.

If you think Monks here never ask for anything, you can't have met many.

I'd also love to see where Buddha called Kananga an example of a person of bad influence...I never knew they'd met.

Well, we are talking about real Buddhism, as in the actual teachings of Buddhas. I think most of us are well aware that what Thai Buddhism actually is, is just Brahmanism in disguise.

Here is the popular summary of Newton's conclusion about the magnitude of gravitational forces.

Can you post the physical laws for Karma?

This is because that is. This is not because that is not. This is the law of Karma... it's also called 'cause and effect.'

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

First of all, Buddhism is largely atheist, so maybe you want to adjust your score a little.

Second of all, Buddha forbade monks from growing their own food so that they will have more opportunities to engage the populace in the practical teachings.

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

only thing really written about drugs in the tipitaka.

Well, going by your definition, I guess smoking yaba and shooting up heroin are ok? Neither of those are a 'fermented drink that causes heedlessness.'

I'm sorry, what was my definition, my definition is not yet posted so please tell me what it is as you just said judging by my definition.

It seems like you are taking your definition from the literal translation, so I was asking, if we are going by the literal translation and nothing else, are those other substances now alright? If not, why not?

I see you have since stated: nothing that affects clear thought.

What is 'clear thought?' It is the prestine origin, our true nature. If you don't think people smoke cigs because of the feelings that ensue, because of their own addiction in some instances, because of a want to fit in sometimes, you are definitely kidding yourself. There is nothing positive about smoking cigs and the need to continue smoking them is, in essence, part of the problem blocking our 'clear thought.'

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

We were all having a chat, and you have gotten a little excited, take some deep breaths until you get over the urge to scroll through the forums seeking an argument.

As I said, not every person can attend a Wat, a great deal of people communicate with monks now online when in need of advice and help.

The typical retort of someone with no response to various comments. 'You are just mad, you should go calm down.'

It is incredible how you are able to decipher someone's emotional state by merely reading words on a screen... perhaps you only know your own emotional state?

Communicating online is one thing, as you can reach many people. How many people can you reach at one time with a cell phone?

It does not take a genius to know when a man is upset, you have been trying to pick apart every post I have made.

And you say I have no answer, answer to what, lol.

how many people can you reach on a phone,1 is enough when they call you in dire straights, monks are the ones who often must deal with a suicidal individual on the phone, is that one call enough.

It won't let me multi-reply, so I'll have to respond two times...

So because I disagree with things you say, I am automatically upset? I have actually agreed with things you posted in my intial post, and I actually agree with something you posted here. Judging is a source of defilement, we shouldn't assume to know another's emotional state. You don't see me telling you that you are upset and should breath easy because you disagree with me. Intellectual disagreements are quite common.

I have pointed out several flaws in your argument, especially in my first post.

Now, regarding the phone, that is indeed a good and valuable use of a telephone to reach one person. Now, I must ask you, are suicides that high that so many monks need phones? Is this some new development that the suicide rate has jumped in recent years?

Would it not be better for everyone if there were not some suicide helpline that anyone could call at any time to ask for help? Imagine, that hotline could be operated by non-monks, reducing the need for monks to have excess possessions? Not to mention, most of the monks who have phones, have pretty nice phones... why not just get the cheapest model available if

all you are using it for is to help prevent suicides?

[....]

Money may be given to the monks, but it is not meant for the monks. Again, monks should only have 4 maximum possessions, 3 of those being a robe and one a begging bowl. The whole alms tradition in Thailand has become tainted due to few awakened teachers residing in this country. The society of Thailand has embraced the idea of an elevated stature for monks and the Sangha (which is not the four-fold Sangha taught by Buddha, by the way) to the point that all males are expected to be a monk at some point in their life to make themselves look better. It has been corrupted for generations now; I'm surprised when I see teachers like Ajahn Chah arise from these conditions, until I remember the lotus arises from mud and the Dhamma can never be destroyed.

Thanks @atlbravosfan for the nice reading.

I lived in SE Asia 30 years ago and came back a few months ago to resettle. 30 years ago I turned Buddhist myself. But coming back here I was shocked to see the changes that occurred. Buddhism, I fear, is on the decline - at least in some locations. When I see how some people practice offerings in the morning, I then must believe that this is just ritual and habit than serving the true purpose. One picture stays so clear in my mind that comes from an observation.

"A person was sitting at his breakfast at a food stall. When "suddenly" three very young novice monks (children aged about 8-10) passed. The guy jumped up, grabbed his walled from the pocket, took out 20 and 50 THB and stuffed it into the begging bowl. He didn't bow, didn't take of his shoes, didn't fold his palm - nothing. The second shocking part was that he did this toward children. This guy has just done wrong anything.

Another observation and comparison I made is that monks are coming by Tuck-Tuck to locations where they can get the most of donations and food. Other monks just "roam" the streets and do not wander anymore.

Sade development.

But I do have to admit, that I also have seeing good examples. One elder monk had on day about 10 novice monks behind him. The where all walking slowly in line, eyes down, and holding the begging bowl properly (not under the left arm like a file). One monk even told a person who wanted to offer money not to do so. That gave me hope that there could be a movement among some Monks that practice the true teaching and live up to it.

Just my 2c.

Yeah, it's nice to have these conversations, even when there is disagreement. Hopefully we can all come back into accord.

There is also an older monk who begs near my house. He is always very diligent, each step is very mindful and peaceful. He is only stepping, not talking to someone else, not playing or fidgeting. If you want to talk to someone, you should stop walking so as to give you full attention to each thing you do. It might take longer to perform tasks but it is definitely worth it.

It's also funny that you mention coming over here and being shocked... coming from America, being Buddhist, my friends and I wanted to go somewhere and see what Buddhism was like, what we wanted American Buddhism to be like. We learned a lot more about what we don't want American Buddhism to be. I think, like where we come from, most people are born into a religious tradition and never really dive deeper into it... they never question a lot of the traditions they were handed. They follow it 'just because.'

SMOKING

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Suśruta Cikitsā, an ancient treatise on medicine, inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhūmanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).

Cigarettes (dhūmavaṭṭi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Saṃhitā, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

While smoking has a very negative effect on the body, it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus, from the Buddhist perspective, has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept.

Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so, although it is often done in private. However, Sri Lankan monks are allowed to chew tobacco.

So Buddha allowed smoking for medicinal benefits... what medicinal benefits are derived from smoking tobacco? Especially highly processed cigarettes filled with any number of additives?

It's interesting that you think 'little effect on consciousness' doesn't matter. 'Drop by drop the fool fills his bucket.' Every sense-impression, every experience, is slightly altering your consciousness. Every act you commit with your mind matters, especially ones of habit and addiction.

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

only thing really written about drugs in the tipitaka.

Well, going by your definition, I guess smoking yaba and shooting up heroin are ok? Neither of those are a 'fermented drink that causes heedlessness.'

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

We were all having a chat, and you have gotten a little excited, take some deep breaths until you get over the urge to scroll through the forums seeking an argument.

As I said, not every person can attend a Wat, a great deal of people communicate with monks now online when in need of advice and help.

The typical retort of someone with no response to various comments. 'You are just mad, you should go calm down.'

It is incredible how you are able to decipher someone's emotional state by merely reading words on a screen... perhaps you only know your own emotional state?

Communicating online is one thing, as you can reach many people. How many people can you reach at one time with a cell phone?

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

I'm glad to see that you think they should be temple property... can't you see though how many monks have their own personal property? Do temples need the newest technology and ipads and iphones? Even at the cost of damage being done to all the enslaved workers around the world? I'm sure lay people could also help communicate the message as well.

As to your last statement, that is what fools do. It's not about 'what makes sense.' It is about what is skillful vs what is not skillful.

your talking about slave workers now, empty most things from your home, discard your cloths and throw away your pc before you judge.

Those slave workers are not there because of want, yes they need the $1 a day to live, stop buying products and they would be worse off (without work), The governments need to be held accountable for that not the customers, stop drawing at straws now.

If I were a monk, indeed, I would have no trouble throwing any of those things away. As of now, I have a family and a job I need to keep and need the technology to perform. We are speaking of monks, you are the one grasping at straws with your argument.

In fact, I have drastically reduced how much I spend, where I spend, and the amount of things I own. Everything I own can fit into two bags, can you say the same?

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

what would he have thought to monks asking for money, swanning around panthip, having their own cars, chasing after women, gambling, taking drugs and the selling of amulets and fortune telling. Most monks in Thailand are just a disgrace to his name.

Actually, I can tell you exactly what the Buddha said about fortune-telling...

"Whereas some religious men, while living of food provided

by the faithful make their living by such low arts, such wrong

means of livelihood as palmistry, divining by signs, interpreting

dreams... bringing good or bad luck... invoking the goodness of

luck... picking the lucky site for a building, the monk Gotama

refrains from such low arts, such wrong means of livelihood."

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

I'm glad to see that you think they should be temple property... can't you see though how many monks have their own personal property? Do temples need the newest technology and ipads and iphones? Even at the cost of damage being done to all the enslaved workers around the world? I'm sure lay people could also help communicate the message as well.

As to your last statement, that is what fools do. It's not about 'what makes sense.' It is about what is skillful vs what is not skillful.

Monks...!

Don't you mean Thai men and women in general, who merely don saffron robes and shave their heads for no apparent reason other than what we are told; and that should be good enough to censor any questions about the matter?

There should be a "Book of Deeds" that catalogs the life which every "monk" goes on to lead after leaving the "priesthood". What an eye opener that would be towards the integrity of what these people choose to altruistically uphold in faith and carry throughout their lives after such a life-changing event.

I must be a beggar, because my own sense of beliefs and views are always being beggared here.

You must be new here... didn't you know it is against Thai Buddhism to ordain women as equal to men in the monkhood? Didn't you know that monks can be 'excommunicated' (as if such a term existed in Buddhism) for ordaining women on equal level with men? Obviously, women are lower caliber so they are not fit for the saffron robe (it's actually orange in Thailand anyway)... they can only wear white and be subordinate!

"He lost a leg......we are not worried he will skip bail."

<deleted>!!!!!

......but he could hop on a bus, eh??

Seems like skipping is about all he can do at this point!

I find it hard to belief that the great USA is not even listed .... every day some idiot discharges his/her gun in a school or at a march, of flies a jet into a tall building or sings country and western songs....

You must not understand the definition of the word 'terrorism.' It's ok, you can google it and you will see why gun violence does not necessarily equal terrorism... unless that was a sarcasm font... then my bad!

If I had two wishes they would be:

That the US government stopped invading countries and that Thailand stopped having coups.

Those are pretty crappy wishes...

"They are working because there are opportunities to do so, opportunities provided from a general capacity for foreign nationals to have greater social mobility. This is the world as it stands in 2013. Why they are working is an easy question to answer, why Thailand makes it so difficult for foreign workers to work legally is another."

Thailand makes it very easy for foreign nationals to legally work - much easier than other countries make for Thai nationals to do the same. If people want to work without visa/work permit here then, perhaps they should contact their own governments at home and tell them to introduce laws that allow Thai nationals to get an easy visa and work as they wish in that country

While I'm at it, perhaps I'll recommend my government make laws that says the price of admission to any museum / national park / national landmark be the same price for all nationalities except the Thais. They get to pay the special 'Thai price' to get into anything in my country, same way I have to pay the 'farang price,' which does not actually mean 'non-Thai.' It just means 'non-East Asian' and is a completely racist term and mindset.

In such a densely populated place, how's it possible that (it appears) no one saw it about to happen or while the brutality was happening?!? Is it like Thailand, where most citizens can tolerate nearly anything offensive?

Unfortunately, unlike Thailand it appears as if a lot of folks in India are just downright offensive and others are afraid to say it do anything so India is well beyond the just tolerating offensive behaviour stage.

I thought India was a cesspool while I was there 10 or so years ago and appears not much has changed.

You must not speak Thai because there are plenty of 'downright offensive' people in this country as well. No country is above having despicable people residing in it. The despicableness of people comes out in different ways in different societies. It is still there all the same though.

Understanding Our Mind by Thich Nhat Hanh... easily one of the most powerful books I have ever picked up.

In all things Buddhist, whether an action is positive or negative is completely dependent on the motivation of the individual.

I sometimes ponder on this.

If one is deluded, then wouldn't this overule motivation/intention if the action is negative?

I'd say, even positive actions may lack merit if greed and delusion are involved.

Many act with what they think is good intention but due to their lack of awareness (delusion/greed) their actions can be misguided.

Here's the thing as well: outward form and action is not true merit. It is merely additional bondage because all you are doing is accumulating more karma. The only true merit resides in concentration and mindfulness. There is only one Buddha, the Buddha of your own mind.

Wow... as many times as I have almost died on a motorbike here due to insane road conditions or unaware drivers, I have never once suspected my death could be coming at me from the air. Adds a whole new dimension to the idea of 'driving awareness'.

He's still laughing on this photo. I'm wondering how long.....

I thought the same thing! Then, I opened the article and realized that is the Swiss guy who got the German busted. Now it all makes a lot more sense to me!