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I live near Khao Sarn road - I see many many of similar girls doing what your niece is doing every year - So this is not an unusual thing.

There are also thousands of young individual travelers on Khao Sarn road doing the same as your niece, but importantly all helping each other.

There is a strong bond and helpful culture all providing tips and trying to give each useful community along the journey - So to certain aspect she will not be alone or at a disadvantage being alone.

South East Asia in not the same as Europe,Australia or North America - Its much easier to connect with fellow travelers.

​I will be surprised if she did not return with a huge increase in new friends - More than she every imagined - With memories that will last a lifetime.

I'm taking her to Khao Sarn Road tomorrow.

Good Call - Khaosan Road is the general area - Its the most famous, but the best place to go is a few streets away Soi Rombuttri (walking away from Khaosan Road keeping it to your right you will see a bank with lots of yellow ATM's on left side of road after about 100 metres go down this soi keeping the ATM;s to you right) - Here is the soi where the backpackers stay - Its cheaper and she will find it a much nicer place - Most of the rooms are basic, but there are also better if she needs hotels (and these hotels are at much reduced costs to being on Khaosan Road) - To give an idea: Top costs = Rombuttri village inn (900 Baht) or New Siam 2 (there many New siam's 1-3) http://www.newsiam.net/ns/newsiam2.php The old part of building = 840 Baht & New build = 890 Baht (Worth the extra 50 Baht) and at the other extreme are the basic, but are the backpacker favorites - Merry V (180/200 Baht) - The hostel next to this is also basic, but probably the most popular hostel on the soi with backpackers in the know and this is 'My New House' (250/600 Baht - depending on size own/shared toilet or fan/Air con) - Since this is very popular need to get there before midday to get a room - Food is very good and very reasonable price (50 - 70 Baht per meal) and excellent networking happening here (I see new arrivals and strangers making friends with others in the same boat everyday here) - There is a bar further along called Gecko bar they have a few rooms (only 12 months old), but not sure of the quality since not seen inside them - However take some food here or coke or a coffee or a beer at some point and get chatting to the locals and travelers - You will get a mine of info, but in a much more accelerated way - If you walk past the Gecko bar (keeping it on your right - and not going down the small soi off from the bar to extreme right) there are lots of low cost hostels further down - One to watch for is new built the rooms are low cost, but very clean (can not remember the name, but its just after Four sons bar/restaurant - with a Japanese menu board outside - this is part of the hostel.

Lastly here is a hand drawn map I found useful when I first got here - Its now out of date for prices, but the map is useful for navigation - And do not take any notice of the star rating for the places to stay - They are horribly incorrect and confusing http://cdn2.vtourist.com/4/5840945-Khaosan_Road_map_Bangkok.jpg?version=2

I live near Khao Sarn road - I see many many of similar girls doing what your niece is doing every year - So this is not an unusual thing.

There are also thousands of young individual travelers on Khao Sarn road doing the same as your niece, but importantly all helping each other.

There is a strong bond and helpful culture all providing tips and trying to give each useful community along the journey - So to certain aspect she will not be alone or at a disadvantage being alone.

South East Asia in not the same as Europe,Australia or North America - Its much easier to connect with fellow travelers.

​I will be surprised if she did not return with a huge increase in new friends - More than she every imagined - With memories that will last a lifetime.

You have written about something that everyone here recognizes instinctively.

I think most do find it difficult to articulate these sentiments in anything other than clumsy one liners that have so far done little to extend the real understanding that is valuable and important to share - You have hit the nerve with your words - They are crafted very well.

And once someone tells it well - It helps others recognize something that has (or might) happen to them and to be better prepared.

Rather than simply thinking that this new found feeling will develop into something even more beautiful with this nice girl that they have found (But has a unsettling over focus upon money) the sharing of this knowledge that many of the bar girls and many of the unemployed Esan girls do have a certain type of value system which is challenging to long term relationships helps others reach their own decisions faster

.

The way you tell it - shines a light!

So good luck in your new journey - After passing over from the dark side.

Great reply

Good insight!

I note your surprise at the Condo investment.

I'm currently looking at Condos along the Rayong coastline - They are increasingly looking like good value at around 2 million Baht for 30/35k monthly rentals or 2/2.5k per night - Currently the majority of renters are Scandinavian tourist that seem to have the demand for nightly and up to 3 month rental.

Having said that it's still not clear to me as of yet the fully optimum channels to get to this market or the strength of competition that is targeting the same customer. However they seem to be mostly medium sized businesses buying up to between 10 to 50 condos from developers who increasingly are new build projects that seem to be following in the footsteps of the Thai government investment program on its coastal area.

If you pay somebody to act as the manager to fix any issues with the people who rent your house it should be ok.

If you fix the issues you are working and need a work permit.

Actually that is a good point that I had not considered - actually fixing stuff - then this becomes work - Hence then would need to have an agent/manager in-between the investment and any work that is carried out on the properties (to remain inside the unearned income definition).

I have a retired friend who is "flying under the radar" earning income from 20+ small units near a local university.

He says it is much better than trying to get earnings from other more risky or low yielding "investments".

Thanks Bankapi - So does he a). just think he could be but not sure one way or the other - or does he know for certain (and realises that he has not been found yet)?

Its good to know that he has bought so many - But I suppose that this brings up other issues more demanding like tax on the earnings which will be more visible then to immigration (if was a problem area for his visa).

Does anyone have any experience of earning a rental income on Thai property owned on a retirement visa extension of stay?

Obviously one of the stipulations of the retirement visa is that you are prohibited from working while in Thailand.

However rental income is normally regarded as unearned income - Hence would normally not be considered as income from actually working.

I am looking to switch some investment into Thailand and balance this between shares and rental of property.

So while dividends from stock will not considered as being income from working – Are there are any peculiar hidden restrictions (outside of the issues on what types of property is actually allowed for ownership) on income rental from owned property (property is not owned by Thai wife – since I'm unmarried) that would directly conflict with the terms of the retirement visa?

<deleted>????????? Worst news all year

Let me be the first to congratulate you on having a pretty good year so far.

only 40 days in and all down hill from here 555

Words of advice:

Stick with DTAC, don't fall in love, always use a condom, beware of street cart food, don't complain about Russians, get used to hearing Free Bird and Hotel California, always ask how much something cost beforehand, get a Thailand drivers license from the DLT immediately, buy a cheap secondhand moped and don't take any crap!

Haa - Made me smile - True - But the only one I didn't instantly connect with was freebird and so googled - And when I heard it realised it was sameSame - And I hear always

On a positive note: This will increase sales of whistles.

As my name tells,im a dane living in Thailand and i trade shares using my laptop and a share Trading platform through my bank in denmark.

What i liked to know is "do you need working permit " in Thailand to be abel to trade shares here and to be abel to bye and hold thai shares ?.

Any links for any great bank trades platforms available for forigners in Thailand ?

thx

Great Dane

Surprised no one has picked this one up and posted a response.

I am no expert on work permits - However generally trading stocks fits into the same category as bank interest and termed unearned income.

Thanks Chaing Mai - Good to get the heads up and a sense of perspective - Appreciated!

Reply to

I think we might have a communications gap - I still do not get what you are saying.

If you can just post the link to the info that states what you say - That rental income is not accepted for an extension application by the Thai immigration or by the British Embassy when applying for an income letter.

Reply to - SheungWan

Sorry you have lost me:

This subject is about an extension to stay - And not about a visa application.

It may be a slip of the keyboard from your end - If so please correct the terms used and respond back accordingly.

Reply

Not true - Rental income is acceptable and was confirmed 3 days ago to me by immigration - Can you provide your data point defining that rental is not acceptable.

Reply

I love it that you have stood up and said what you said.

This is not about fighting and winning - Rather its about understanding and knowing.

Because then - There is no need to look up from below and hoping - Rather you can look straight ahead and connect.

Reply to

RandomSand

Hi Random Sand -

I think we might be at crossed purposes here. My original post was (admittedly) a long winded way of just pointing out that there is a gap in the way immigration and British embassy are not joined together on the use of Income letters and my second post was to illustrate that point with examples of absurd ways of thinking about this gap to just illustrate the gap - The capital in a 5 year bond was a tool I used to help (or not) show a real case where the lack of guidance could mean anything then could be used as earning for purpose of application at immigration - I was being purposefully mischievous by using something that should not be reasonably used for this purpose, but because there is no clarity then I suggested that this source had every reason it should be acceptable from immigration - directly because of lack of guidance

The 20% gain is the fluctuation rate of conversion and if you bought THB at the bottom and then compared this with buying at the top the amount of THB more gained is around 160,000 Baht (on a transfer conversion of 800K THB). This was used to compare the potential gain from transferring the 800k on currency when the imbalance is not in your favour and gave much more benefit than 3% interest over 12 months than that which in available from a Thai bank account deposit.

Apologies for the two long posts not hitting the mark - Hope this helps.

You might be right - But mostly irrelevant - Unless you have the data - Even point to members here that have done that in the last 12 months - This would be helpful.

What a waste time and energy.

And "what they are really trying to achieve"!!?? Maybe the one clueful guy that wrote the rule in the first place.

For the thousands of bureaucrats working on the ground that follow, they couldn't give a toss about rationality or the real world, they have their rules, and if you want to deal with them efficiently and move on to more productive pursuits you simply provide what their rules state in the format requested, they put stamps all over the papers and you move on with your life.

Put some of that creative intelligence into an activity where you'll actually receive some real benefit in return.

What am I trying to achieve?

OK its a fair question>

Simply this.....Knowledge of what works and what does not work.

Asking why ?

• Is healthier than moaning about confusion.

• Being curious rather than accepting - bit by bit - will be useful forever.

The personal benefit so far - Having a friendly and very open relaxed conversation with the officer formed a kind of a relationship that was comfortable enough for him to gave me his personal details - This is not time spent trying to 'change face' in a transaction - This is time invested in a conversation.

Next time you go to see your "friend", hand him an envelope with 10,000 baht in it and he will suddenly see your unique form of logic.

That's why he's talking so amicably to you.

Thinking this - Died a long time ago - It is lazy and unhelpful to others.

Brilliant!

Not answering your question I know, but why not just use the asset method rather than income?

If I read you correctly I think that you are asking why I do not simply deposit funds into a Thai bank - and only use this as my method.

Forgive me if I am getting your question wrong and not reading you correctly......

However assuming I got this right - Then this suggests means giving up on a choice that has been made available.

Since it has been offered as a choice it should remain exactly that..

I hear what you are saying and I am assuming that you are interested and have some curiosity for what is the source of needing this choice - so just to answer this - The bottom line is my desire is to retain choice to maximise optimum currency rates for when and how funds are converted - Wishing to make this choice based upon the market opportunity and not the demands of immigration .

However really the main issue is that because I have been given a choice - I wish to use it.

You seem to be analysing things to the 'enth degree' !

You talk about...... choice, to maximise currency rates for when & how funds are converted. However, there's precious little choice to take funds from a 5 year bond !!

Your 'argument' not to deposit the 800K in a Thai bank is unfounded, especially since you can choose to deposit the money into a 4 month, 6 month or 15 month high interest fixed rate bond at just over 3% less tax. that's far better than a UK bank is currently offering.

Choice is an 'overworked' term theses days and one particularly liked by politicians.......many of whom talk a great deal but achieve very little !

Given a choice between all the unnecessary 'maneuvering' with Thai immigration, or a simple, logical and straightforward deposit in a fixed rate bank account, I know which choice makes most sense.

Sometimes it's better not to 'over think' things.

Foot Note:

Further to your original Post and subsequent Posts, I foresee changes to Thai immigration's financial capability requirements coming any day soon.

Quite frankly, when an individual seeks to 'baffle and bamboozle what essentially 'boils down' to 2 options, either a lump sum deposit in a Thai bank or a 'normal pension income, the authorities then feel compelled to 'cross the T's & dot the I's, with the result the vast majority of responsible ex patriots suffer at your expense ! Don't say you haven't been warned.

• The Baht/GBP has fluctuated by over 20% in 12 months
• Not sure how 'trying to bamboozle' fits - Rather this is trying to understand.
• Sorry that you feel - Choice is a bad thing.

What a waste time and energy.

And "what they are really trying to achieve"!!?? Maybe the one clueful guy that wrote the rule in the first place.

For the thousands of bureaucrats working on the ground that follow, they couldn't give a toss about rationality or the real world, they have their rules, and if you want to deal with them efficiently and move on to more productive pursuits you simply provide what their rules state in the format requested, they put stamps all over the papers and you move on with your life.

Put some of that creative intelligence into an activity where you'll actually receive some real benefit in return.

What am I trying to achieve?

OK its a fair question>

Simply this.....Knowledge of what works and what does not work.

Asking why ?

• Is healthier than moaning about confusion.

• Being curious rather than accepting - bit by bit - will be useful forever.

The personal benefit so far - Having a friendly and very open relaxed conversation with the officer formed a kind of a relationship that was comfortable enough for him to gave me his personal details - This is not time spent trying to 'change face' in a transaction - This is time invested in a conversation.

Come to Khaosan Road (area) you will have no problems on either of your needs

- The cheap rooms are on a street nearby - This is street view showing popular backpacker guesthouse Merry V and My new house - Start at 170 Baht (Merry V) - 600 Baht (for multi occupancy own bathroom and a/c in My new house)

https://maps.google.co.th/maps?ll=13.761936%2C100.494863&cbp=%2C0.0%2C%2C0%2C-0.0&layer=c&panoid=2xfd7KyvnXetf_7pkIheOQ&spn=0.17999999999999836%2C0.30000000000000676&output=classic&cbll=13.761936%2C100.494863

This is not four star luxury - it is back packer accommodation, but I go here every day for lunch and they are both very popular (tip if you do go here try to get there before 12 midday to make sure you get a room). If either are full simply walk this street shown all the way along to O-Bangkok hotel - lots of places below 600 Baht to chose from.

As for travel and getting to the airport - Yesterday was first day of lock down - I took transport and the buses from here to out of the area and they are running more fluidly and faster than they have been in the last 3 weeks (since the protesters are now located and focused in shutting down the central area of Bangkok). My journey time is halved since most people use their cars to get into the center and since the center is inaccessible they leave their cars at home and the roads are very easy to travel on - So ironically its easier not harder from Khaosan Road (area)

You can also get a ticket from almost any of the tens of travel shops along this same street (or from the guest houses identified on the map) - each charge different prices (120 - 150 Baht) for the regular minivans that go on the hour every hour - These guys are doing this every day and they know what they need to do to get to the airport. There is no blockade of the airport - the main problems are downtown Bangkok and moving in and out of there - So just to re-emphasise there are no problems currently for getting to the airport from Khaosan Road (area) - So come just as you planned and you will not regret it - This is a magical place.

If things change I will post an update.

Return of principal is not "income" (at least not "net income"); it is return of capital, and if you wish to use capital as a proxy for income in your visa application, it needs to be in a Thai bank, per Thailand's prerogative.

Think of it this way, if I have GBP 2000 and repeatedly invest it in 1 month fixed term deposits at 1% yearly interest, is my yearly income from this GBP 24,020 or GBP 20? Yes, this is quite different than a 5 year fixed term deposit maturing, but it demonstrates how your proposed definition of "income" to include returned principal gives some odd results.

Will you be declaring the GBP 85,000 to the UK government as net income, and paying the appropriate tax on it? I am assuming the answer is no. In which case, the question is if the UK government doesn't treat it as income (an thus subject to tax), why should the Thai government treat it as income?

Now, in an ideal world it would make sense for Thailand to grant you an exception; if you can legitimately claim that either (1) you intend to bring over THB 800,000 of the principal into Thailand after maturity or (2) you will re-invest the money and receive sufficient income from that. However, I have no idea whether Thai Immigration even considers such exceptions and if they do, what your chances of succeeding are.

Yup I do get this entirely - And you are 1000% right

- The real underlying point however here is not so much about taxation on capital - cos that is an entirely different ball game - But its the value that is placed on 'ability' to access funds over 12 months' - cos this is what immigration is really trying achieve (see explanation further below - visit to British Embassy) in its policy of determining your financial fitness and no burden to the kingdom as the alien granted extension to stay. And they do not care about taxation or relief on sources of funds by personal allowances etc - Just raw hard access to new money - available for you in the next 12 months.

And I am playing devils advocate here when I do this mental framing of the money thing with release of the underlying capital, but its what immigration have defined that they want to see. It is a definition that fits their principles since there are no further rules on this principle.

The real issue.

Unfortunately immigration have no real underlying principles or guidance on what it is that drives good sources vs bad sources of new access (to funds).

So your point again - completely correct as a principle used in taxation - I would not expect anything different since this principle is at the heart of determining taxation system for interest earned from underlying capital.

The real purpose for throwing this up it to illustrate a point that seems bizarre (if we were actually looking at say taxation principles as you pointed out). Immigration has a special world of money that immigration has created the rules for (or indeed lack of rules to guide retirees) - It is a secret book and provides nothing to follow.

This might help - And might be new information to some - Gained from visit to British Embassy:

Without going deep into a meeting I had at the British Embassy (as a result of writing to them about the central incident around rejection of the income statement by immigration) I was interested to learn while talking with the vice consult - that there are two templates (not one template as I first thought to be the case).

The two template system might be the source of some of the confusions when presenting income letters by some to immigration.Hence you do need to identify which letter template you have been issued with

- One template is for pension statements:

This is where actual pension letters and documents have been provided by the pension source company either private of government sourced.

- The other (second) template is based upon non pension source income and these are more difficult to word. So the Embassy takes the easy route and simply provides a notarised letter to say that they have identified an amount of funds that goes into a bank account

The interesting bit for me was that the non pension funds letter will identify the total funds for the year based upon calculating an entire 12 months - sometimes by seeing the regular monthly incoming of funds shown in three monthly consecutive statements of your bank account, but also from one off payments that are shown at any time during the year - for example some accounts for interest payments are paid once per year and not monthly.

When pushing the point at the British Embassy - The only concern that was seen to be critical to interviewing a retiree for their extension of stay application at immigration was to really just to id if there was going to be a lack of funds.

The only way that they currently have is subjective opinions on what constitutes - Good vs bad sources of funds to determine that you might have sufficient funds.

At this point all kinds of bells started to ring and I started to understand a lot more of the context for what had happened earlier to myself in this principle being deployed.

- What is a good source of funds for the Income letter?

This seems to be at the heart of most of the issues around income letter confusions

Since what immigration want to see is a release of capital being made available to an alien in a specific year - The problem is they have no definition of what are the good sources these funds might originate from

Typical examples:

• Is income from rental of property a good source (or a bad source)?

• Is income from a five year bond a good source? - And therefore should income from an instant access account be considered a less good source?

• Or perhaps you gamble on line and you are pretty good at this and it provides revenues?

• Maybe you just buy a house on a buy 2 let mortgage and take out a 100% mortgage (ok I know not really going to happen - just a point I'm making) and you get tenants who pay to you the equivalent amount of the 800K that immigration want to see you earn each month from outside Thailand, but the mortgage payments is the same amount as the income being gained - Hence zero revenues.

And the point made was that Thai immigration have no guidance for you or me on what they are thinking of what are good sources vs bad sources for this revenue.

So my frankly ludicrous way of attempting to show that any lump of money you might have back home in whatever wrapper, formation or indeed of any exorbitant amount - still is potentially under the spotlight of subjective day to day guesswork from who you get on the day when immigration to look at your letter.

One final comment - Please always take your sources of your income with your application (if you have the second template letter from the British Embassy) - Not my words, but quoted at me by one of the people I also met at one of my visits to the British Embassy.

This was information - I do not see anywhere from either Immigration or the Embassy freely published as guidance.

Not answering your question I know, but why not just use the asset method rather than income?

If I read you correctly I think that you are asking why I do not simply deposit funds into a Thai bank - and only use this as my method.

Forgive me if I am getting your question wrong and not reading you correctly......

However assuming I got this right - Then this suggests means giving up on a choice that has been made available.

Since it has been offered as a choice it should remain exactly that..

I hear what you are saying and I am assuming that you are interested and have some curiosity for what is the source of needing this choice - so just to answer this - The bottom line is my desire is to retain choice to maximise optimum currency rates for when and how funds are converted - Wishing to make this choice based upon the market opportunity and not the demands of immigration .

However really the main issue is that because I have been given a choice - I wish to use it.