xthAi76s

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I never saw so much leg and arse until I made it over here. It's EVERYWHERE. From Hi-So to So-So to Lo-So. See through, excessively tight, short skirts and whatnot.

How can you have 'excessively tight'?

That's the sort of thing the late Mary Whitehouse might have said...

I certainly cannot, but, y'know, I'm not the one parroting the nation building slogans.

I like it just the way it is. But, sadly, I know what's right...

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Meanwhile in the REAL, ACTUAL Thailand

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I never saw so much leg and arse until I made it over here. It's EVERYWHERE. From Hi-So to So-So to Lo-So. See through, excessively tight, short skirts and whatnot.

You need to drive with your eyes closed, to avoid being distracted, like I do

SC

I will try that. I do practice a similar strategy when walking with my wife though. Rather than closing my eyes, though, I just stare at the ground. My friends and other Thais think I'm just a typical, anti-social, maladjusted Farang.

Her career is based on controversy but then the Thais complain when she is! Go figure.

This Thai quote says it ALL

"She came to our home, but instead of admiring us she insulted us," a commentator on the Pantip.com Web forum said."

For Thais, admiration is generally not earned. It is bought.

Oo, low blow. But, true nonetheless.

'Manufactured outrage to create stories and hype and website traffic. A handful of people made comments on twitter, oh noes! 99% of Thais don't give a $%#@ what she said. No one is boycotting. No one is protesting her like they did in other countries. No one cares. The only thing most Thais would think is that it is very strange for a rich celebrity to want to buy a fake watch, as that is something for poor people. Most Thais wouldn't understand how it could be a novelty item for a rich foreigner.'

Couldn't have put it better myself. It's actually quite amusing (if a little tirmsome) to watch all the usual suspects (the bitter twisted folk that hate living here but haven't got the balls to leave) react to the Thai Visa spin. Good for generating web traffic but making the site's content very predictable these days.

What I find quite amusing (if a little tiresome) are the the people who

1) often fail to admit that the country they live in has all manner of problems that they have no control over

2) make the infantile assumption that anyone who lives in Thailand and who doesn't like or levels criticism against certain aspects of Thailand is somehow unable to leave or wants to leave or is silly enough to actually believe that if they live in a place, they should be happy and/or accepting of everything that goes on around them

3) people who are predisposed to an (often quite self-serving) philosophy which encourages them to interpret negative things in a society (so long as they are not directly and negatively impacted) as positive or which encourages them to be indifferent at every opportunity because they know that being truly aware of what's going on around them is much more challenging to deal with. Some people call these kinds of people 'selfish cowards' -- although I don't, of course.

It's certainly much easier to sit back in a nice condo with a nice job or perhaps in healthy retirement and try to interpret crappy things in Thailand as being OK. While looking out of my 15th floor condo window, observing a row of street vendors baking in the sun slaving away for what, under proper circumstances of mental health, I would call meager, I think to myself --

"Look at those wonderful street vendors happily working away in their traditional ways earning a good living. They certainly do look happier than the people exploiting them. Yeah, now I feel better about the whole thing. Let me put some ice in my imported craft ale and relax a bit. Maybe later I'll go down and buy a meal for 30 baht. Not sure why they are always look at me funny when I walk over with my constant (if condescending) smile. I want them to feel that we are equals; that's why I do it."

Oh, in fact, it's not a whole lot different from the Hi-So Thais who spend so much energy convincing themselves that they live in the same Thailand as their Thai servants. Same same.

** If one looks around the web, one will find all manner of stories by different agencies covering this very story. I've seen several, and I find no significant spin in the TV one.

Well written reply and some points you make are certainly valid, however, your arguement is misplaced in response to my post because it needn't go as deep as that my friend.

I still (after reading this thread) stand fastly by my assertion that Thai visa these days has more than its fair share of bitter, twisted folk that really need to leave Thailand because they obviously aren't able to adapt.

I'm all in favour of having sensible discussions about the rights and wrongs of my adopted homeland (and often do). However, I don't consider the vast majority of the posts that I read from the 'moaners' that I'm referring to as sensible. I consider the majority of them infantile (to quote an adjective you used in your post)........

The real insult was not the Rolex comment but the fact that she called her Thai fans; "Monsters". It is utterly nonsense to think that a remark over fake Rolexes damages the name of Thailand. Without the non existing fake Rolexes, the puritan Massage Parlours, the counterfeit football jerseys and the drugs no tourist would bother visiting Thailand. There is something awfully off when general practices of the Thai Mafia are highlighted by foreigners.

No no noooooo. People come here for the temples and stuff...

It's called tough love. Sometimes you gotta be hard on someone (or a people) and someone needs to be speaking the truth. Sadly, there seem to be FEW native Thais speaking publicly on all manner of ills here. Perhaps if there were some in the media more often, Thais would face (a bit) less criticism from the 'outside' world. Somebody's got to do it. I want this place to improve for them and for me.

I could not agree more. Very concise analysis. First of all, why do these people have such fabulously thin skin? Who cares about a tweet by a pop star? Why does that even mean anything at all? How do they know it was not said in jest? And why not just admit that your country is one of the world capitals for fake goods? Look, most of us that live here know how many wonderful qualities Thailand has. All of our countries have many faults. So, why be so sensitive about this, unless this sensitivity if a reflection of inner insecurity about something?

Yes, exactly. What is with the covering up? Well, I think some of us who think about deeply enough can identify many possible reasons why. Face, shame, fear for what is required to change things, apathy, etc. So, it is what it is. What Thais probably don't understand (and likely due to their education system) is that very often the kind of people -- like many of us on TV -- who would criticize Thailand so quickly and frankly are the same people would and do criticize our own countries. And, further, they might be surprised to know that disliking a certain aspect about a society does not necessarily imply hatred toward the entire and all aspects of the society. But, you know, this takes a certain level of intelligence and both intro- and extrospection.

I love many things about this place, but I'm not going to pretend I don't see the faults.

'Manufactured outrage to create stories and hype and website traffic. A handful of people made comments on twitter, oh noes! 99% of Thais don't give a $%#@ what she said. No one is boycotting. No one is protesting her like they did in other countries. No one cares. The only thing most Thais would think is that it is very strange for a rich celebrity to want to buy a fake watch, as that is something for poor people. Most Thais wouldn't understand how it could be a novelty item for a rich foreigner.'

Couldn't have put it better myself. It's actually quite amusing (if a little tirmsome) to watch all the usual suspects (the bitter twisted folk that hate living here but haven't got the balls to leave) react to the Thai Visa spin. Good for generating web traffic but making the site's content very predictable these days.

What I find quite amusing (if a little tiresome) are the the people who

1) often fail to admit that the country they live in has all manner of problems that they have no control over

2) make the infantile assumption that anyone who lives in Thailand and who doesn't like or levels criticism against certain aspects of Thailand is somehow unable to leave or wants to leave or is silly enough to actually believe that if they live in a place, they should be happy and/or accepting of everything that goes on around them

3) people who are predisposed to an (often quite self-serving) philosophy which encourages them to interpret negative things in a society (so long as they are not directly and negatively impacted) as positive or which encourages them to be indifferent at every opportunity because they know that being truly aware of what's going on around them is much more challenging to deal with. Some people call these kinds of people 'selfish cowards' -- although I don't, of course.

It's certainly much easier to sit back in a nice condo with a nice job or perhaps in healthy retirement and try to interpret crappy things in Thailand as being OK. While looking out of my 15th floor condo window, observing a row of street vendors baking in the sun slaving away for what, under proper circumstances of mental health, I would call meager, I think to myself --

"Look at those wonderful street vendors happily working away in their traditional ways earning a good living. They certainly do look happier than the people exploiting them. Yeah, now I feel better about the whole thing. Let me put some ice in my imported craft ale and relax a bit. Maybe later I'll go down and buy a meal for 30 baht. Not sure why they are always look at me funny when I walk over with my constant (if condescending) smile. I want them to feel that we are equals; that's why I do it."

Oh, in fact, it's not a whole lot different from the Hi-So Thais who spend so much energy convincing themselves that they live in the same Thailand as their Thai servants. Same same.

** If one looks around the web, one will find all manner of stories by different agencies covering this very story. I've seen several, and I find no significant spin in the TV one.

snip

ah, you always see it for charities!

i could find you hundreds of pics from a variety of countries, or just google image "donation cheque for charity"

Not in the way it's done here which certainly does seem tacky and inappropriate.

looking back over the thread....maybe i was wrong, have you really not seen this outside of thailand???

Only when someone wins the PGA or lotto....

or donates to charity, or to victims of crime?

No, I would imagine in most countries it's long been considered rather tacky.

And the big giant cheques, who are these people, Happy Gilmore?

How embarrasing for both the victims and the government.

And why is the victim waiing him? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

LMAO!!!! I NEVER saw anything like this until I came to Thailand. I was always like "<deleted> is with these giant checks?! Do they bring those to the bank? Perhaps a special bank for Big checks?"

suspects sarcasm.... approves.

looking back over the thread....maybe i was wrong, have you really not seen this outside of thailand???

No, I have, of course. Publisher's Clearing House in the US has done this since the old days. I think what distinguishes the Typical Thai use of this

1) the amounts on the check are often paltry, embarrassing sums,

2) they are often presented in what I what I would consider wholly inappropriate situations (like necronx99 pointed out) and

3) perhaps the checks look so big because the people are generally smaller?

Y'know, like "here, I'm going to show off by presenting you with 10 bucks for your lost kidney, and can someone help me hold up this gigantic check cause it's too heavy and unwieldy for me to hold".

And the big giant cheques, who are these people, Happy Gilmore?

How embarrasing for both the victims and the government.

And why is the victim waiing him? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

LMAO!!!! I NEVER saw anything like this until I came to Thailand. I was always like "<deleted> is with these giant checks?! Do they bring those to the bank? Perhaps a special bank for Big checks?"

Anecdotally, again, I've seen this lack of critical thought given to similar small businesses in my wife's family, and they are generally upper class and well-educated by Thai standards. I'm talking Mahidol, Chula, Thammasat and Kasertsat (sp). So, to anticipate (or assume, if you don't mind) that this may happen throughout the even less educated populace is not such a stretch.

As far as the simple example you've listed goes, I think it's just too simple in this situation. I don't think that we are generally talking about locations lacking sufficient population density as this is Thailand/Asia. Of course, it wouldn't make sense to open a shop in a place where people are rarely found. But, again, that's not the issue. There are plenty of locations. My criticism, as I've stated prior, is that Thais seem rather disinterested, or, if given the benefit of the doubt so-to-speak, they seem unable (perhaps insufficiently educated) to 1) assess market demand in a given area and 2) differentiate their offerings to potentially be more competitive.

I think you're being a little bit unfair when assessing the Thai business climate and I'll explain why. Firstly, it's easier to start a business in Thailand than the US. Lower cost (generally) and less regulations to deal with. Secondly, people are less compelled to start a business in the US because of the social welfare net, as well as higher pay and various benefits available simply by working for someone else (e.g., medical insurance, pension, etc.). In Thailand, Thais know that they're on their own and working for someone else simply will not achieve financial independence, let alone amass any sort of wealth. So most believe that the only way out is to start their own business.

In summary--and in my judgement--many entrepreneurs in the west start their own businesses because they're really good at what they're doing, they enjoy it, and they have the financial means. Many folks in Thailand start a business because they simply feel that they have no other choice. The results of both systems are clear.

Hmm... That is something to think about. 'Two sides of the same coin'.

you left your home in ' inner BKK ' under the threat of flooding ? It's not quite the same as being forced out by a load of smelly brown water being in your living room is it . I stand by what I said which is , if you had actually been flooded then you would think otherwise !

No, you are wrong; I would not think otherwise. I would however be upset with my situation, but that doesn't change the reality of the need for people to be forced to action. Thais are world-renowned for their lack of action. Please don't deny it. Mob mentality is what works here. Enough people have to be negatively impacted before real, significant change is to take place. Life isn't always neat and pretty with simple solutions.

There is a street corner in Toronto (Queen and Broadview I think) that has a Starbucks, a Tim Horton;s (a Canadian icon coffee/donut shop), a Timothy's (a knock off Starbucks/Tim Horton's hybrid) by yet another Starbucks. I was taking a market research course a number of years ago when the question, "how does Burger King do their market research when they choose a new location?", was asked. After a few minutes of guessing and creative ideas by the course participants, the instructor answered, with deadpan sincerity, "they look for the local McDonald's and open up across the street." Simple and cheap.

It happens everywhere.

Yes, it does happen everywhere, but, again, the issue that we are identifying with these Thai mom and pop shops in particular, is that they often don't do well at all. Also, they are not multinational rich, heavyweight companies with brand images and brand recognition to worry about, so your example is really not all that relevant here. If these Thai businesses did well, then their copycat practice would be valid in that regard. But, the simple truth is that most don't do well at all and end up closing in short order.

How do you know this, exactly? Just from the mere fact that most new businesses generally fail? I think DowntownAl brought up a very valid example. Do you really think that these little Mom and Pop operations--many of whom are investing the precious little that they have--are just blindly copycating others without any real thought? If you can, say, open a coffee shop in a high-traffic area where there's already several coffee shops, or open one out in the boonies where there isn't one already (i.e., low traffic), where would you go? Simple example which excludes many variables, but I don't think the boonies is the right answer.

Fair question. My statement, of course, was not meant to be taken as an absolute. Like others have done here, it is more of an educated guess from personal observation, discussions with Thai family members -- many of whom run businesses -- and discussions with local vendor acquaintances.

To answer your question, yes, I do think many of

these little Mom and Pop operations--many of whom are investing the precious little that they have--are just blindly copycating others without any real thought

Anecdotally, again, I've seen this lack of critical thought given to similar small businesses in my wife's family, and they are generally upper class and well-educated by Thai standards. I'm talking Mahidol, Chula, Thammasat and Kasertsat (sp). So, to anticipate (or assume, if you don't mind) that this may happen throughout the even less educated populace is not such a stretch.

As far as the simple example you've listed goes, I think it's just too simple in this situation. I don't think that we are generally talking about locations lacking sufficient population density as this is Thailand/Asia. Of course, it wouldn't make sense to open a shop in a place where people are rarely found. But, again, that's not the issue. There are plenty of locations. My criticism, as I've stated prior, is that Thais seem rather disinterested, or, if given the benefit of the doubt so-to-speak, they seem unable (perhaps insufficiently educated) to 1) assess market demand in a given area and 2) differentiate their offerings to potentially be more competitive.

There is a street corner in Toronto (Queen and Broadview I think) that has a Starbucks, a Tim Horton;s (a Canadian icon coffee/donut shop), a Timothy's (a knock off Starbucks/Tim Horton's hybrid) by yet another Starbucks. I was taking a market research course a number of years ago when the question, "how does Burger King do their market research when they choose a new location?", was asked. After a few minutes of guessing and creative ideas by the course participants, the instructor answered, with deadpan sincerity, "they look for the local McDonald's and open up across the street." Simple and cheap.

It happens everywhere.

Yes, it does happen everywhere, but, again, the issue that we are identifying with these Thai mom and pop shops in particular, is that they often don't do well at all. Also, they are not multinational rich, heavyweight companies with brand images and brand recognition to worry about, so your example is really not all that relevant here. If these Thai businesses did well, then their copycat practice would be valid in that regard. But, the simple truth is that most don't do well at all and end up closing in short order.

Thailand did a great job protecting the ability of their local industry to try to grow, but for whatever reasons (education, lack of support from the government, laziness, culture that does not encourage competition, etc) they have done a terrible job of creating any industries (aside from a handful) where they can satisfy quality needs of 1st world-ers.

Businesses here don't need to focus on quality because it's not required by their market, only when designed for export is the extra cost justified.

Thai customers only care about appearance, reputation and (usually most of all) cost. Most are not qualified to make any judgment on inherent quality, and of course the restrictive libel/slander laws wouldn't allow for any consumer-reports style service giving objective evaluations.

I'd personally much rather have cheap clothes and shoes than pay extra for quality.

Things that are only in demand by expats aren't usually worth a decent-sized company paying attention, but e.g. foodland's locally-sourced butchery/deli products aren't bad.

Funny, after posting this, I thought the same thing. The market here (Thai market, anyway) doesn't demand it. Although, to be fair, most wouldn't know any difference because they've rarely, if ever, had exposure to the better quality. However, those Thais who are fortunate enough to live abroad, in my experience, usually do tend to gravitate towards and desire better quality products. Not always, but of the many I know, most do complain about this very issue of Thai quality vs many of their foreign competitors.

But, yes, I do agree that the vast majority of Thais care mostly about appearance. There's a particular Thai expression for this -- it means creating a picture -- but I cannot 'put my finger on it right now'. Too bad for us foreigners who desire the extra quality as we'll continue to 'pay through the nose' for it as long as the Thai market stays where it is. In other words, we'll be paying what we consider exorbitant prices for the foreseeable future.

EDIT

One thing neither of mentioned is that in most countries economies demand for quality has seemed to rise in lockstep with the populations wealth/purchasing power. In Thailand, perhaps, that is not the case partially because the rise in wealth over the last couple decades is centered in the hands of so few (read: one of the largest wealth gaps in the world). Even in China, consumers are starting to demand quality in their products. And, there are frequent stories of Chinese companies being publicly berated by Chinese consumers for poor quality goods. That does not seem to happen in Thailand at all.

Villa seems to have some higher quality products but prices a bit higher to match

Theres other "premium" super markets around bkk ,cant remember all their names but imported products like

cheese ,meats ,beers ,wines and specialty items have a nice hefty price tag on them

Tell me about it. Last time I was in Bangkok there was a Villa just across the street from where I was staying. One evening I thought "I'll just pop over there and get some munchies for the drive home tomorrow"

Walked out 4000 baht lighter and no alcohol purchased.

I agree.

Thailand has done an EXCELLENT job of setting up the country's economy for export. They also have done a good job at protecting local industry with some of the highest import tariffs in the world.

However, where they've failed (at least from the perspective of most Westerners, Japanese, Koreans; people relatively wealthier) is that their local industry is mostly crap. Clothing is mostly crap. Food other than regular Thai food is mostly crap. Electronics are certainly crap -- think AJ, for example. This encourages us to purchase imported stuff which is often taxed at more than 100% of it's shipped cost.

IF Thailand had done a better job of being competitive and creating better products, we'd feel much less (although not zero) desire to buy imported goods.

Think of the US, for example -- I don't know much about the UK -- where imported goods are also often considered 'luxury' and taxed (albeit generally lower than imported goods in Thailand) and are often significantly more expensive. For example, think 'imported Italian leather'.

The major difference in the US and other economies is that those other, non-Thai economies generally have reasonably competitive products in just about every category. The US has pretty good quality everything. Same with Japan. Same with most Western European countries and even Australia. I mean, China is even getting there. You can find very nice quality clothing, traditionally Western food (like cheeses and sausages, just as examples) in Shanghai.

Thailand did a great job protecting the ability of their local industry to try to grow, but for whatever reasons (education, lack of support from the government, laziness, culture that does not encourage competition, etc) they have done a terrible job of creating any industries (aside from a handful) where they can satisfy quality needs of 1st world-ers. This is what is so frustrating. Most of us MUST look outside Thailand if we really desire a certain level of quality.

Lets hope it wont happen again.

<snip>

But this is Thailand things are easily forgotten. <snip>

Actually, that's exactly why I hope it DOES happen again. Sometimes you gotta beat change into people. You have to devastate them for them to wake up. I hope very sincerely that it happens and much worse, for their sake.

As I said in another thread you obviosly weren't flooded. A lot of people did actually die too.

In fact, we did leave our place for about a month under the threat of the flooding reaching inner Bangkok.

I would understand my own suffering if I'd been flooded as long as it benefitted Thais by kicking them off their lazy &lt;deleted&gt; to do something about this problem. The selfish are typically the ones who 'hope' and 'pray' that things just resolve themselves because they themselves were affected or someone they know or care about was affected.

Sometimes what's good for the situation requires greater sacrifice and even personal sacrifice.

If you love Thailand and Thai people like I do, then you should 'pray' and 'hope' for devastating floods that will motivate them to force their representatives to action.

1. Head straight from the airport to a 7-11 (or even goto the one in the airport). Enjoy some bread snacks like hot dogs in buns or sweet bread.

2. Depending upon your arrival (I'll guess evening or night), get a taxi from the managed line to your hotel or wherever you are staying. When you get to the hotel, ask out one of the front desk staff for a drink. She'll refuse at first, but you've made the initial offer. She'll cave the next night with the recommendation that you take her someplace fancy. Enjoy the meal and what is inevitably to follow

3. Head over to Nana area and pick up a 'hair dresser' for a fun time. The night will cost you anything from 1000 (darker brown girl) to 3000 (lighter skin, Chinese looking girl) Baht.

4. Head to a bar frequented predominantly by tourists, and enjoy a few warm piss-flavored, cheap and low quality beers OR over inflated imported beers on ice while chatting with other Farangs and getting bitten by mosquitoes as you sweat your arse off in the heat.

5. Eat some delicious but wholly unsanitary street food.

6. Finally, head over to any massage place and enjoy all the services (even off-menu) ones, fall in love with the girl, and get her contact info.

7. Head home with a sense that you really have the perfect place to spend time or retire to.

I really hope it does flood again and even worse than last time. Sadly, some people (in this case, Thais of all walks) need to be devastated to proper action. Perhaps is most of Bangkok was under water for a month or two, and the Thai economy was completely devastated, then maybe people would force their sh#tty politicians to action.

So, for their sake, I hope they are completely devastated.

you obviuosly didn't have to leave your home for two months like I did then.

In fact, we did leave our place for about a month under the threat of the flooding reaching inner Bangkok.

I would understand my own suffering if I'd been flooded as long as it benefitted Thais by kicking them off their lazy &lt;deleted&gt; to do something about this problem. The selfish are typically the ones who 'hope' and 'pray' that things just resolve themselves because they themselves were affected or someone they know or care about was affected.

Sometimes what's good for the situation requires greater sacrifice and even personal sacrifice.

If you love Thailand and Thai people like I do, then you should 'pray' and 'hope' for devastating floods that will motivate them to force their representatives to action.

Yes so everyone will have to suffer so the politicians will learn.. hmmm Just like everyone in the US thought all those wars were good... Your logic... hmmm

Would be better if some politician houses were flooded not the ordinary people who have no power to change it.

Yes, it would be good if the only people who get flooded are people who are allowed to vote here. That is one way to look at it.

EDIT

I am not one to blame the politicians for everything as I think they are a mirror reflection of Thais and their society. So, I blame all of them. They are a (pseud.) Democracy after all.

Lets hope it wont happen again.

<snip>

But this is Thailand things are easily forgotten. <snip>

Actually, that's exactly why I hope it DOES happen again. Sometimes you gotta beat change into people. You have to devastate them for them to wake up. I hope very sincerely that it happens and much worse, for their sake.

I am sure you havent been flooded... I have and i can assure you its not fun. Its even less fun when you loose a lot of money because of it. I am one of the lucky ones that we did not loose too much.

I did not get flooded. I do have family who were flooded. Of course I don't desire for people to suffer needlessly, but, sadly, there is always collateral damage. Thais are the stubborn type who likely need to be completely devastated in order to get their act together. So, it is what it is.

I really hope it does flood again and even worse than last time. Sadly, some people (in this case, Thais of all walks) need to be devastated to proper action. Perhaps is most of Bangkok was under water for a month or two, and the Thai economy was completely devastated, then maybe people would force their sh#tty politicians to action.

So, for their sake, I hope they are completely devastated.