xthAi76s

Yes it is a huge amount of rain to assimilate, but it was possible to mitigate it earlier on. They didn't even look.

Not immediately putting the head of irrigation in charge of FROC was beyond idiotic.... Who ever suggested another 'leader' should be canned NOW for mindless incompetence. .

If she had any leadership 'balls', Sukhumbhand would have respected that and let her take the lead, as it was he had to just take the Bangkok reins and deal with the problems, including public announcements.

The US Corp of Engineers is the main large scale dike and water works building in the USA< they get called if there is ANY large scale issue of flooding, but like the army here, can't move until the politicians say go by calling a state of emergency. Certainly there are 'acts of god' bigger than mans abilities to control it fully, but always Man ca act to mitigate the damage. IF he has the will to make the tough decisions. That has proved lacking here.

This government was bound to have a large disaster it mismanaged, a foregone conclusion, but no one imagined it would be this fast and this big. Still maybe 3 Typhoons is karma's way of telling the Thai People; 'You screwed up folks, electing this mess was a fundamental mistake, and I'm now gonna prove it to you.'

NO amount of giving her a personal circle of advisors, rather than big bros circle of lackeys, is going to suddenly give her the power, information and abilities to get the job done as MOST citizens expect.

I do remember reading, after the enquiry was released, the U.S. Corp of Engineers admitted that they had not built the wall correctly years before and that is what caused the first breach causing the flooding of New Orleans. They also admitted that they knew the wall would not hold in a disaster like the tidal surges that the hurricane caused.

So here is a Powerfull Government that has all the experts and equipment and manpower, but cant stop a Natural Disaster. :blink:Oopsie !

That's correct both failures of the Corps of Engineers and Bush's Homeland Security monstrosity method of managing the disaster. The Bush Administration correctly took the heat for it and the democrats won the next election.

It's off-topic, but the Army CoE had asked the Bush administration for $1Billion to shore up New Orleans' flood defenses, Bush refused. $1Billion invested could have saved $6Billion in losses. To put it on topic, sadly, both the USA then and Thailand now had political leaders of the silver spoon variety, who apparently had no regard for the masses.

** Edited so as not to be misread as rude **

This doesn't resonate with my thinking. If you can agree that (as one poster earlier put it) that economic (and therefore, political) realities dictate what happens much of the time, then you cannot simply suggest these similarities of Thai and US policy.

To keep it short, are comparing a wealthy country to a poor one. Thailand is an agricultural country that depends quite heavily on farming (to feed its own population) and for food export. The US is no longer such a country. The economics are not the same. The disaster in New Orleans is NOT to the US economy as the flooding in Thailand is to its economy. Plus, how many of these New Orleans style floods have there been according to the US record? Probably not nearly as many as there are in Thailand.

Comparisons like this are interesting and esp when they can be made well.

Cheers

There's also a psychological effect to bear in mind. Those companies exporting consumer electronics have been hit just before the Christmas season. Nikon stated in their press release that they had cameras in stock for about one month, and 90% of their DSLR are (were) being manufactured in Ayuttaya. Sony had a huge launch of a rather revolutionary new model, the NEX 7, less than a month ago. What I've heard now is that production was supposed to be in Ayuttaya as well. If that one misses the boat for Christmas, competitors will probably catch up before they're on track again.

Apart from the monetary losses, seeing competitive advantage turn into dust overnight isn't the best motivation to rebuild for the future in the same location.

As a non-expert, it's just interesting that if indeed many of those mega industrial estates are built in flood plains, below or at sea level, how is it that they wouldn't build them up higher to protect them somewhat? It's baffling because ostensibly academic knowledge (and even ancient wisdom) has existed about the water situation here for a long time.

Perhaps the cost of engineering in some obvious safeguards (in a country that floods) for such large manufacturing bases was too expensive at the time? For a country turning out a pretty high number of civil/industrial engineers, it just seems odd.

Very true, but what would the cost be of relocating the businesses? Bringing them back to Japan wouldn't be a good idea given the risks of tsunami's and earthquakes (not to mention the shortage of electricity).

Other S.E. Asian countries have experienced similar levels of flooding. Is Vietnam or Cambodia a better option? Does the cost of relocating, rebuilding make sense? What other countries have the infrastructure for some of these businesses?

I think what would worry these companies more than the risk management of natural disasters would be the logistics and management of the disaster by the government. There are no manufacturing countries in Asia where natural disasters are unlikely, but there are countries that seem to handle crisis better or worse. China (for all its flaws) comes to mind.

...

Not to be doom and gloom because I also like to find the positive, but isn't it just as likely that contaminated water washed onto various areas as opposed to being washed away from various areas? Certainly, the contamination needs to be washed 'to' somewhere, and there could have been plenty of new contamination that previously was contained in, say, those big industrial sites that is now who knows where. Does anyone have a background in such farming related matters to chime in? I would be more worried for the crops as this wasn't a controlled re-soiling (if that's the technical term). It has been completely uncontrolled.

Of course it is but the topic was/is the destroyed farm land.. There's an overwhelming amount of negatives to dwell on and very hard to find positives which makes finding them all that more important as just seeing the negative will foster more depression and hopelessness which in the end is far more damaging..

Glass half full and all that..

Got it. Thanks.

...

Not to be doom and gloom because I also like to find the positive, but isn't it just as likely that contaminated water washed onto various areas as opposed to being washed away from various areas? Certainly, the contamination needs to be washed 'to' somewhere, and there could have been plenty of new contamination that previously was contained in, say, those big industrial sites that is now who knows where. Does anyone have a background in such farming related matters to chime in? I would be more worried for the crops as this wasn't a controlled re-soiling (if that's the technical term). It has been completely uncontrolled.

>Sorry if you perceive wanting to have truthful information as "bashing".

No sorries. If you dislike the info from authorities - just go and sue them IRL. Got a balls?

>More than hope what people need is the truth.

Where and when in Thailand ever you seen "the truth" from the authorities?

Where in the world have you seen "the truth" from those in charge?

Why are you expecting that your speech will change this here and now?

C'mon, gimme a break...

>False hope is not hope.

Wrong. Go get some education in social psychology. False hope IS the true hope unless false is discovered and understood.

And false would be discovered tomorrow....or never (in case of non-educated Thais. See the last elections).

>btw, no one is protecting my arse.

Those who is arranging sandbags now. Say thanks to them, or at least mind those anonymous farmers. Water is now on TaladThai, FYI....

>btw II, I'm not "fighting" here.

You're not helping the things too. A million of speaches will not shift a single sandbag a meter higher....but a ppl who still have a hope - they will.

alexakap, I understand your sentiments, but I cannot agree with them.

Your first point is really intended to say "if you don't like it, leave it". This is a type of false argument used often, and it is called "argument by dismissal". This type of thinking is flawed as it encourages people accept failure and poor decision making. I would suggest a better alternative "if you don't like it, talk about it often, openly and constructively".

Your second point is certainly well-taken. What you are essentially saying is that governments across the world have 'challenges' telling the truth to populaces. I think most of us would agree with that, although some governments would be worse than others. Unfortunately, however, your point is another type of false argument call "two wrongs make a right". You are saying that since other governments make similar mistakes, then we should not be concerned with those mistakes. I think you would agree that we should be concerned with them and try to discuss them constructively.

On your point about hope, I really, really do not like the concept of 'giving hope' in this way. Of course I have empathy for those affected, and of course I understand that physical labor is what is largely needed to fend off the flood waters, BUT I am of the thinking that much good can come from preventative measures. Have you heard the expressions 'measure twice, cut once' or 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'? Many people are happy to perform no good preventative measures, and when disaster strikes to just use their physical bodies to build sand bag fortresses, but many of these same people would never give importance to discussing the issues in depth and trying to move toward improving the situation. I think discussion is critically important toward improving the overall systems that are intended to protect people here. As a quick aside, more modern places like most of the "West" did not become so by simply putting only their muscles to work each time disaster struck. A driving force toward building a stronger society was undoubtedly freedoms of expression.

So, yes, discussion is very important indeed. Now, it's better if it's constructive, but we can't always be perfect.

*** list of false arguments here: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html ***

Every now and again we come across Thais who had a few years education in the West.

Most of them are arrogant as hell and really think they are incredibly superior here in Thailand (far more so than the average Thai who just 'believes' they are superior).

In my (admittedly limited) experience - the best are those well-educated here in Thailand. They are intelligent, interested in what is going on in the world and generally nice people to deal with.

I agree with this observation. It's not unlike other poor countries I've been to though. When the wealth/education disparity is so unequal, you get more of this kind of thing, I think. People often have a tendency to easily forget that so much of our 'accomplishment' is purely chance. Where we were born, into what family we were born, all that crazy jazz that Malcom Gladwell writes about and stuff in Freakonomics and Super Freakonomics. However, just as was true for me in the US, some of the most interesting, wonderful and accepting, humble people I meet are the ones who are really on it. The ones who are super bright and accomplished and ambitious. The people who are past the ego stuff.

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This has been my experience as well, but I wonder how much of this is a Thai cultural issue and how much is simply (or not so simply) a socioeconomic issue. As for the Thais who I know in my circle, many of whom I met through my wife's largely successful family here in Thailand and in the US, their friends and acquaintances and some who I met in school, they are all 1. very well educated, 2) have travelled extensively, 3) speak English fluently or very well, 4) place an extreme value on education in the typical East Asian cultural trait (Japan, China, Korea) -- their families often encouraging them very strongly to go for PhDs 5) are curious to know end, and perhaps most telling 6) almost uniformly hate being back here in Thailand and so many look for or have found ways out.

The people you are referring to are barely Thai at all. They are either born or raised overseas or spent a substantial amount of time overseas. They are acculturated to western cultural norms and education so of course they behave differently. Most of the people you mention above probably are dual citizens elsewhere as well.

One interesting thing that the majority of Thai people fail to realize is that a lot of their elite were born and raised abroad. They are multi-nationals and their life experiences are completely different from your average Thai. A lot of them live segregated lives away from the unwashed masses.

Agreed with one minor exception. Several of the people I know (of course all our accounts are anecdotal, anyway) chose Japan and China for their secondary education as opposed to places in the West.

So, there are a couple points being made.

1. people who are educated in some international fashion, are generally more 'acceptable' by international standards.

-- I agree with this, and this is certainly relatively true in most any country. It's true in NYC, where I'm from. It's true for my Japanese friend who went to grad school abroad. Reasons for this would be complex but certainly have something to do with the fact that 1) people who have to move around early in life while they're being educated probably often do so because their parents/caretakers are rather successful and 2) because people who can choose to be educated abroad in a different country have parents who understand the importance of global perspective and they have the means to support the usually expensive undertaking of secondary and tertiary education in another country.

2. that the people with multi-national backgrounds here do not represent the majority of Thais.

-- Of course this is true. This is part of the point I was making. What I'm saying is that the causal nature of the reality is not clear. Are we saying that to be Thai is to be flawed in a particular way which would prevent them from becoming these multi-national elites? I don't think so.

I do agree that the education system in Thailand leaves much to be desired, and, if we can agree that education is at least one of the primary contributing factors to this overall issue, I'd want to make a quick point.

I've come across any number of very successful people (in finance, medicine, politics, etc) -- some are Thai, some Japanese, some from Hong Kong, some Westerners from NYC -- who all express that they believe the ultimate educational system (among those that currently exist and which are popular) would be to be educated early in the 'Asian' tradition of rote memorization, forced appreciation of authority, etc and to then be secondarily and post-secondarily educated in the traditional 'Western' form of asking questions of everything around you, reading and thinking critically, etc. I am not an educator, so I don't know, but the point I take away is that both systems have much merit when used appropriately.

Been all over the world and the Thais are absolutely the least curious people I've come across.

Another reason is that generally parents don't put much value on education; certainly not as much as Indians, Chinese, Koreans, Singaporeans, Vietnamese, Japanese etc.

Maybe another reason could be that questions are not encouraged due to the potential for someone to "lose face".

Maybe it's a combination of all three.

This has been my experience as well, but I wonder how much of this is a Thai cultural issue and how much is simply (or not so simply) a socioeconomic issue. As for the Thais who I know in my circle, many of whom I met through my wife's largely successful family here in Thailand and in the US, their friends and acquaintances and some who I met in school, they are all 1) very well educated, 2) have travelled extensively, 3) speak English fluently or very well, 4) place an extreme value on education -- their families often encouraging them very strongly to go for PhDs 5) are curious to know end, and perhaps most telling 6) almost uniformly hate being back here in Thailand and so many look for or have found ways out. The last part, for me is a psuedo-confirmation that their interest don't generally match with what they encounter most often when back here in Thailand.

I just wonder how much we are confusing between cultural values and opportunity or unfortunate socioeconomic circumstances that lead to complacency. I really don't know. But there are far more very poorly educated people here than in some of our home countries, but if we had a way to compare an average poorly educated Thai to a similarly poorly educated Brit or Aussie or 'American' (US), how much real difference would we measure? My suspicion is that it's not Thai culture per-se but other complex issues like the fairly obvious perpetual exploitation of the less fortunate here by the ruling class. You could say similar things about China, but look at how quickly China is shocking the world as it opens up. I think (and hope for the Thais and for us non-Thais living here) that the masses will get hip to these things and orchestrate a major progressive leap and move into the modern age, and it would be great to see in our lifetimes.

We should be careful when attributing (or suggesting) perceived shortcomings to culture. The world has tried to do that so many times throughout history and is proved wrong every time.

Btw, NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE POSTER QUOTED HERE HAS DONE ANY OF THESE THINGS!!

Really enjoy reading the responses here.

My wife and I are working on a business concept here. That takes up all our time and could be considered a hobby until it begins to generate revenue.

I imagine that it will be my hobby for a very long time as it will require most of my waking hours.

I would like to learn how to use my dslr camera if I can make the time.