haha

I am not sure what you are trying to point out. sorry if I'm not smart enough to understand you. could you rephrase what you said in simpler terms for me to understand?

There is no rephrase which could be simple enough for you, mate.

you really must have a lot of hate in you. I feel sorry for you.

to joe beets....

by the way... what do you think of the cartoon controversy?

would it trouble you if I were to display them in thailand?

just curious...

Pardon me for butting in, but I couldn't let this pass.

colpyat: you assume that I made "a conclusion that no summary executions were made" - which I did not.

I just pointed out to you that you were not there, so, how can you assume that summary executions were made?

in my country, you are innocent before proven guilty.

on this subject of the drug war, you have already judged thaksin guilty on all points without even presenting any proof other then mostly heresay. that is what I don't feel comfortable with.

this is mob mentality. vigilante rules.

could it be... that maybe independent police officers are taking the laws within their own hands? have you heard of rogue police? it happens.

(emphasis mine)

Who says irony is dead?

Defending extrajudicial killings while saying, "in my country, you are innocent before proven guilty."

True, but you're usually first proven guilty of a capital offense in a court of law before being executed.

But wait, there's more:

I believe in freedom of speech as long as what you have to say is not based on lies. when you accuse someone of something without any substantial proof, you are lying.

Er, no it isn't.

You need to get a dictionary, my friend.

For starters.

jb

I am not sure what you are trying to point out. sorry if I'm not smart enough to understand you. could you rephrase what you said in simpler terms for me to understand?

if you are saying that freedom of speech includes the right to lie, then, I don't agree with you. that's not the way it is suppose to be.

I just heard that a new election will be invoked in 60 days. it will be interesting to see if the anti-thaksin folks will fall in line to assist the newly elected whoever they might be.

my guess is they will just complain again without providing any constructive criticism.

we shall see....

let me get this straight...

you seem to be telling me that..

1) you believe that the whole thai police force is corrupted,

2) thaksin is a crook who makes the laws, and,

3) thailand is not a democratic country.

if you are a foreigner, I suggest you leave the country if you don't like it that much.

if you are a thai person, then, you must be feeling like you are in hel_l.

on my opinion of thaksin...

like I said, I think he is trying to improve the country. and I think most of the house and senate do too. I mean they have to give him their approval before he proceeds on any course of action, right?

....oh, I get it...

4) the house and senate are all crooks too?

Let me guess - you don't have many Thai friends, or know any Thais that you can discuss politics or affairs of daily life with?

You may have your opinions on Thaksin, but stating that the police force as a whole is not entirely corrupt is ridiculous.

Concerning "leaving the country" - I really have to wonder if you read my posts. I believe i have expressed rather clearly that i am not on extended holiday in a place i can live cheaply but do have responsibilities here towards my family. Which i believe counts for many people here in this discussion.

I do not have the habit to run away from my responsibilities, only because things are getting a bit difficult. Wouldn't that be rather cowardish? Sorry, if i want to keep a sense of selfworth i will stay.

Improving things in your surroundings does not equal blindly toeing the line of government. One of the basics of "democracy" is to be able to disagree. 'Ya know - freedom of speach, ever heard of that?

Here in Thailand opponents of Thaksin only exercise their constitutional rights in a democracy, be it within the parliament, or via demonstrations. If this form of democracy is not to your liking, then i would suggest for you to move to Burma. Their sythem of government might suit you better, judging by the position you have taken so far in this discussion.

most of my friends are foreigners, but I do have some thai friends. but you are right, I don't discuss politics with my thai friends.

I see your situation somewhat. and I can sympathize with you.

being poor for generations... how can you improve your situation??

has anyone looked for oil here yet?

maybe there is oil in the south, and nobody knows it yet except malaysia?

but seriously, I love thailand, and like living here. but if a coup occurs, I don't know. I think many foreigners feel this way too.

I think foreign investment is one of your best options to improving the situation here. but you can't get that without a stable political environment.

..the money is coming in now. so, don't screw it up.

if you do, it may take at least another 10 years for you to get the confidence of the world to come in again. look at burma, laos, and cambodia.

Second it'd be my guess that'd you'd prefer a mini Hitler to continue to murder tens of thousands of his own people to install the fear to not oust a member of a minority sect that weilded absolute control over their lives. The violence in Iraqi at this time is sectarian in nature. You have heard of Sunnis and Shites? But then again considering your usage of the clinton bumper sticker as a way to prop up your arguement, probably not.

I thought we went there for the WMD?!?! I'm really confused now

What the <deleted> all of this has to do with us?????

we went there because someone declared war on us. and the countries we entered supported these guys. simple as that.

for sure, if nothing was done, it would have escalated even more.

http://www.almidfarah.fanspace.com/islamic_terr_even.htm

http://www.meforum.org/article/80

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/

ideally, in a democratic country laws are made to protect the people in a country. that includes you.

work with and through the law. if something doesn't seem to be working right, vote to correct it.

if someone is harassing you, then, there should be laws to protect you from that. in the usa, we have such laws.

if you feel like your financial debts are too much for you to handle, then, use the laws to protect you. in the usa, we have laws to protect the individual from creditors harassing you for repayment of loans. these laws are called bankruptcy laws. a person is allowed under the law to declare bankruptcy once every 7 years if they need to do so.

I think thailand now has such laws. but you will need to check that out for yourself.

on the idea of accepting heresay...

in my life, I have encountered many people who "lie" to get their way. so, I am very wary of believing other people stories without proof. many times, I will not believe something unless I see it myself.

if some people from the government tried to "force" you to take their loans, I would report them to the people above them.

on your mishap with the police...

personally, I have encountered rogue police. it is scary when you meet someone like this. but I have also met many friendly police. so, I know that they are not all bad.

I truly believe that thaksin is just trying ways to help the country. the number of projects he has implemented tells me he cares. he is trying to improve the country. you need to understand that there is no straight road to success. it is usually a uphill battle. so, you should work with thaksin to correct problems encountered along the path he is following.

on thailand.. love is in the eye of the beholder. I love both thailand and america. but not being a rich man, I prefer to be in thailand now because I can live within my means here without having to work. to live the same way in the states would require that I work. ..it is a no-brainer to come here.

And how do you think that there is any way to "work with Thaksin"?

There is no way that anyone who does not completely agree with Thaksin comes even close to him. Thaksin has a proven track record of ignoring and ridiculing anyone who does not blindly follow his line, as even several founding members of TRT had to learn.

I do know several generals, for example, who have very feasable plans to bring peace to the south, who tried in vain to present their ideas. If high ranked generals don't get behind Thaksin's walls of seclusion, how on earth do you imagine some farang married into a Thai ethnic minority peasant family can?

And complaining about people from the TRT government abusing their power, hoping that the "law" protects and helps you?! It's they themselves who make those laws.

Your only protection against them on a local village level is that they hesitate to follow up on their dislike towards you because you have more local guns on your side. In many distant Mu Bans police is not part of the equasion, as they don't enter, and people sort out their own problems. Which is far from ideal, but given the endemic corruption of the entire police force, the lesser of the two evils.

I am astonished to hear from you that you trust Thaksin solely because he "implemented" projects (many of which he did not implement, only took credit for), even though the ones he really implemented have desastrous results.

Maybe if you would start working here (and i mean not just for money - there are many kinds of "work") you would get a more realistic picture of Thailand, especially that things are not like in the US, and that there is very little "ideally, in a democratic country" here in Thailand.

let me get this straight...

you seem to be telling me that..

1) you believe that the whole thai police force is corrupted,

2) thaksin is a crook who makes the laws, and,

3) thailand is not a democratic country.

if you are a foreigner, I suggest you leave the country if you don't like it that much.

if you are a thai person, then, you must be feeling like you are in hel_l.

on my opinion of thaksin...

like I said, I think he is trying to improve the country. and I think most of the house and senate do too. I mean they have to give him their approval before he proceeds on any course of action, right?

....oh, I get it...

4) the house and senate are all crooks too?

what baffles me most is your position that people are just harassing

poor 'ol meaw (taxsin) because they have nothing better to do.

for me, it has been amazing that the status quo over the last five

years has gone on for as long as it has without more widespread

'harassment'.

did I really say that?? I think you should reread my previous posting.

frankly, you have a bad habit of distorting the facts. (lying)

refer to the "blue". I did not say this.

wouldn't you call this a distortion of what I said?

i summarizied your opinions as you have so often expressed. even

though you did not write the quote in 'blue' ,i stand by my position

that it pretty much sums up what you write in your posts. the following

of which is typical:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=654015

my interpretation of what you want to express may be wrong, and you

may want to address that. however, it does not warrant being

referred to as 'lying' (i will leave that quote of yours inact for you

convenience).

you misread my previous posting. when I said quote, "waste of time". I was referring to all the wasted time that pm thaksin is spending having to address all these anti-thaksin folks. (I think you knew that.)

he should be focusing on solving the countries problems, not all these complaints from people who have already judged him guilty without due process.

on the distortion of facts...

one of the points I mentioned earlier about anti-thaksin folks accusing thaksin of quote, "changing the laws" to take advantage of some major profits was one of them.

thaksin doesn't approve the laws, the house and senate do, right?

personally, in my opinion, I think there are more people who want pm thaksin to stay then to go. and I think the anti-thaksin folks will soon find this out.

my 2 cents.

what baffles me most is your position that people are just harassing

poor 'ol meaw (taxsin) because they have nothing better to do.

for me, it has been amazing that the status quo over the last five

years has gone on for as long as it has without more widespread

'harassment'.

did I really say that?? I think you should reread my previous posting.

frankly, you have a bad habit of distorting the facts. (lying)

you are kinda pushing the line here sport. just where did i lie? i only

asked you to come up with 'accomplishments' or the positives of the

taxsin administration. if you cannot do that, so be it. no need to

respond and accuse me of lying.

when your position is basically "why don't people help taxsin instead of

questioning his motives" - that would fall under what most would consider

'harassing'. basically your posts are long drawn out diatribes along

this theme with lack of any substance. if the position of your diatribes

are not getting through, maybe you should shorten them.

refer to the "blue". I did not say this.

wouldn't you call this a distortion of what I said?

what baffles me most is your position that people are just harassing

poor 'ol meaw (taxsin) because they have nothing better to do.

for me, it has been amazing that the status quo over the last five

years has gone on for as long as it has without more widespread

'harassment'.

did I really say that?? I think you should reread my previous posting.

frankly, you have a bad habit of distorting the facts. (lying)

I have read most of this thread, and dan's description of your position fits quite well, I think.

I am also one of the posters who find your comments difficult to accept and very naive, frankly you seem to lack the ability to digest information and arguments presented to you.

At the same time I keep looking at your avatar, which seems to match the 'maturity' of your comments.

Very irritating.

Example:

'Executions' during the war on drugs.

You insist that you'd rather believe the police officer, that you have met many decent policemen, and that there are a few bad cops - but criticising Thaksin and the police is unjustified complaining and lies.

And you seem to believe, that this somehow rebutts the evidence to the contrary presented in the form of media reports, the documented findings of human rights organisations and another poster's personal experience???

work with the laws, man. if you don't like what is there, work through the laws to bring about change.

I believe in freedom of speech as long as what you have to say is not based on lies. when you accuse someone of something without any substantial proof, you are lying.

regarding the bad police...

the bad police were here long before thaksin is in power. how can you blame their existence on thaksin?

on the honesty of media reports...

come on, give me a break. do you really believe everything you read?

on my avatar. do you really like it that much? hehehe.

what baffles me most is your position that people are just harassing

poor 'ol meaw (taxsin) because they have nothing better to do.

for me, it has been amazing that the status quo over the last five

years has gone on for as long as it has without more widespread

'harassment'.

did I really say that?? I think you should reread my previous posting.

frankly, you have a bad habit of distorting the facts. (lying)

about 10 years ago, one of my annual routines was to buy a few thai gold bracelets here in bangkok, then, return to the states to sell them. it was just a hobby thing, but what I found out from that experience was that I could sell the thai gold jewelry for at least 3x what I paid for it here.

if you go to the right gold jewelry shops, you will see gold bracelets where the design is exquisite. much more intricate than what I have seen in the states, or in hong kong even.

the best selling bracelets were the charm bracelets. and the best customers were philippino girls. once, I showed a group of philippino girls 5 thai gold bracelets - all of different designs. the girls all wanted the gold charm bracelets. I could have sold at least 10 of them at that time if I had them.

as I recall, the girls like the way the charms were made. very detailed. one of the charms on the bracelet had this "ball within a ball within a ball" look. the girls would die for it. hehehe.

I have been living here for over 7 years. I love thailand, and because I do, I feel obligated to speak up if I think people are unjustly criticizing the government through the use of lies.

I may not be the smartest guy in the world, I know. but I try to be honest, and fair.

Sorry, my apologies. I do not try to be an arrogant prick, which i am at times.

Try to understand my position please. The points i have raised are all points that i had to deal with in my personal life here. I think that i have pointed out to you that my wife was in immediate proximity to one drugwar execution, approximately 5 meters away. My wife could have easily been killed. So, apart from all legalities, this drugwar was a personal thread to me and my family. And this i tell you in all honesty. So be fair, please, accept that some things might not be part of your personal experience, but are nevertheless true, and others have experienced it.

The same counts to all the other points i have raised - they not just have an devastating effect on the country - they have endangered the lifes of my family.

I do not want to destroy your love for Thailand. But mate, as nice of a personal life here we can create for ourselves, that does not mean that Thailand is a paradise. Far from it. Blocking out, rejecting everything that might derail you from loving Thailand does not serve any useful purpose.

Thailand is a real country, with real problems. I personally do my best to change things for the better. Not only out of some mistaken altruism, but also simply because i will have an easier time if my family is doing alright. And those efforts do bring me more often than not in direct conflict with the government.

For example the loan schemes: I had initially a hard time explaining my family that taking up the easy loan offers would lead to their utter ruin, as they would not have had the slightest chance to pay back the loans. And that was at a time when government officials came every month to them trying to pressurize them into taking up the loan offers, trying to mob them, blackmail them, any dirty trick you can imagine.

The agricultural schemes were similar: officials tried to apply pressure so that we change our selfsufficient farm (according the roayally sponsored "sittakit por pueang" sythem), into a worldmarket oriented sythem, that was simply not economically feasable.

I believe that i have pissed off many TRT members in the area by refusing to take part in their schemes. The only thing though that i care about is that my family prospers, and i don't need to support them. Most others though who took part in the schemes do everything else than prosper.

Do you understand where i am coming from? I am not a "foreigner" on the sidelines barking up the tree. TRT rule has made my and my family's life very difficult, and i have 5 years of defensive battling behind me. I dream of the days under Chuan, where things went slow, but steady. And i pray that we can have a return to those far more peaceful and enjoyable days without any further bloodshed.

ideally, in a democratic country laws are made to protect the people in a country. that includes you.

work with and through the law. if something doesn't seem to be working right, vote to correct it.

if someone is harassing you, then, there should be laws to protect you from that. in the usa, we have such laws.

if you feel like your financial debts are too much for you to handle, then, use the laws to protect you. in the usa, we have laws to protect the individual from creditors harassing you for repayment of loans. these laws are called bankruptcy laws. a person is allowed under the law to declare bankruptcy once every 7 years if they need to do so.

I think thailand now has such laws. but you will need to check that out for yourself.

on the idea of accepting heresay...

in my life, I have encountered many people who "lie" to get their way. so, I am very wary of believing other people stories without proof. many times, I will not believe something unless I see it myself.

if some people from the government tried to "force" you to take their loans, I would report them to the people above them.

on your mishap with the police...

personally, I have encountered rogue police. it is scary when you meet someone like this. but I have also met many friendly police. so, I know that they are not all bad.

I truly believe that thaksin is just trying ways to help the country. the number of projects he has implemented tells me he cares. he is trying to improve the country. you need to understand that there is no straight road to success. it is usually a uphill battle. so, you should work with thaksin to correct problems encountered along the path he is following.

on thailand.. love is in the eye of the beholder. I love both thailand and america. but not being a rich man, I prefer to be in thailand now because I can live within my means here without having to work. to live the same way in the states would require that I work. ..it is a no-brainer to come here.

first off, I really have no position with many of the points that you listed. it is not my place to side with either side since I am a foreigner.

I give up.

Sorry, but i just can't take it anymore.

Just out of interest - have you ever been in Thailand?

I have been living here for over 7 years. I love thailand, and because I do, I feel obligated to speak up if I think people are unjustly criticizing the government through the use of lies.

I may not be the smartest guy in the world, I know. but I try to be honest, and fair.

I read many of the posts that others suggested I read. and in most of the posts, all I saw were accusations with no proof confirming those accusations.

Then elaborate and substantiate, please.

Give us your position on the large scale agricultural schemes, such as the rubber scheme.

Give us your position on the drugwar, but please more discerning arguments than "rather believing the police". Explain how you come to the conclusion that there were no summary executions, which somehow is in conflict with the National Human Rights commision, the UN Human Rights commision, the international media and the local media.

Give us your position on the changes in the sor por kor 401 law.

Give us your position on the effects of the easy loan scemes.

So far you have failed to explain your position in any of those issues. That leaves me no choice other than coming to the conclusion that you have not informed yourself sufficiently. I will not continue trying to reason with you as long as you don't stop evading those issues. This is becoming absurd.

Take it or leave it.

first off, I really have no position with many of the points that you listed. it is not my place to side with either side since I am a foreigner.

my 2 cents...

what I see with thaksin is - a man who is trying to improve the country during his tenure. he is trying many different ways to achieve this goal.

there is no way anybody would know exactly what needs to be done. so, by trying, hopefully, you will find the solution. this is what I see thaksin trying to do.

on the other side, I see these anti-thaksin people trying to tear thaksin down for everything he does. they don't provide any constructive feedback to thaksin on his attempts to improve the country, they just complain.

these anti-thaksin people should work with thaksin on correcting problems with any projects that were attempted. but instead, they waste his time by just complaining.

my guess is that these same people will do the same with the next leader who comes along in the future.

colpyat: you have a list of items that I guess you find have problems. have you tried to contact the appropriate people involved with those projects to provide them with feedback as to what the problems are in the spirit of correcting the problems?

last but not least...

colpyat: you assume that I made "a conclusion that no summary executions were made" - which I did not.

I just pointed out to you that you were not there, so, how can you assume that summary executions were made?

in my country, you are innocent before proven guilty.

on this subject of the drug war, you have already judged thaksin guilty on all points without even presenting any proof other then mostly heresay. that is what I don't feel comfortable with.

this is mob mentality. vigilante rules.

could it be... that maybe independent police officers are taking the laws within their own hands? have you heard of rogue police? it happens.

fact of the matter, many of these anti-thaksin people are just making accusations without any proof.

many of these accusations could be considered examples of slander.

my constructive criticism to the anti-thaksin crowd...

if you have issues with projects implemented by thaksin and the government, list them, and present them to the appropriate authorities for review. and suggest possible ways to improve on the projects. by working as a team, solutions can be found.

..as it is, people are just complaining. so, nothing will get done. I hear from the nation newspaper that thaksin is spending a lot of time away from his job now to deal with these complainers.

what a waste of time.

you don't like to hear the truth, right?

I beg your pardon?!

You gotta be joking. Are you child that by coincidence stumbled onto this web board, but hasn't learned yet the basic rules of engaging in conversation with adults?

I, and other posters, have numerous times pointed you to threads that you should read (which you obviously didn't), have brought up counter arguments to your rather naive theories (which you conveniently ignored).

So, read, and respond, don't just talk to yourself.

I read many of the posts that others suggested I read. and in most of the posts, all I saw were accusations with no proof confirming those accusations.

in my last post on this thread, I basically pointed out what I read on the bangkok post which basically proves my point that the "general" lied, and you come back with a bunch of insults.

note that I haven't insulted you yet. so, tell me who is acting like a adult?

to make an accusation like that "general" did about thaksin "changing" the laws. well, it was basically slander. call it a lie - if you will.

I did actually spent a bit of time and thought into my posts hoping that you would afford me the same respect. I get more intelligent and informed respones when i have a chat with my dogs.

I am not anymore willing to keep engaging into this one-way conversation.

A hint: when people hold a discussion they do respond to the points the opponent brings up, and not just repeat their own points while completely ignoring the other's.

Thanks for wasting my time.

you don't like to hear the truth, right?

it seems to me that it is a well known fact that dealing in drugs carries the death penalty here in thailand. wouldn't it be logical for a drug dealer to try to resist arrest when confronted by the police knowing that he is for certain going to be executed?

Thailand hasn't executed anyone since 2003. Why don't you check facts before forming your opinions.

has anyone ever considered that maybe the people who thaksin hired to take care of his finances are the ones to blame for these current mishaps?

Don't you realise that the problem is that Taksin had a hand in managing Ample Rich investments all the time? It's illegal for him to have any interest in that company. If Taksin's link can be proved, he's out.

His lawers might have made a few mistakes here and there and didn't cover all the tracks but it's not them who owned a company.

my 2 cents?

Fake money.

Now I think I got the quotes right.

I must be really getting to you if you have to make attempts to insult me. hehehe.

my 5 cents...

I had this argument the other day with this anti-american guy. he said that quote, "america has one of the highest prison populations in the world. that is an indication of how evil america is."

my reply was quote, "the reason why america has such a high prison population is because they don't immediately kill their felons."

so, the next obvious question is - how big is the prison population here in thailand?

on the subject of thaksin and his hired help...

if I hired thaivisa to process my 1 year visa, and then, they messed up. who is to blame? should I be penalized for the mistake that thaivisa made? I mean, I did hire them for their expertise? in the states, I would be entitled to sue thaivisa for any losses incurred because of any mistakes they made.

let's look at it another way...

supposing I bought a house through a real estate broker. he tells me that the house he is representing is lien free. so, I buy it based on his assertions. later, I find that he lied. can I hold the real estate broker liable for my financial losses? of course.

if you hire a doctor to perform a surgery on you, and he lied about his qualifications on doing such a surgery, can that doctor be held liable for any injury to you? I hope so.

if thaksin hired an accountant to do his taxes, and that accountant messes up, the accountant should be held accountable. not thaksin.

nuff said.

About ten years ago a young German man staying at the bungalow resort next door ate his breakfast, walked out the door and hanged himself from a tree in the forest. And it was most definitely a suicide.

Why eat breakfast? No one knows what is going on in the mind of a suicide but the person himself. Logic dictates not killing oneself hence it would be very nearly impossible to find logical explanations for the water etc.

And I have read of suicides hanging themselves with plastic bags over their heads because they want to ensure they die, it is not that uncommon.

Also could be some weird autoerotic asphyxia thing going on, that is not too uncommon either. Didn't some British MP die that way a few years back?

in the 12 years that I have been coming here to thailand, I have talked to literally thousands of different people. and during some of the discussions, I see, in my mind, "suicide" imprinted on the foreheads of many people.

there are a lot of disturbed people out there - both farang and thai.

broken hearts is one of the biggest contributors to suicides.

..and rookies seemed to be the most inclined to take the plunge.

[

I replied, "what laws did he change?" (we have yet to get an answer from the OP.)

Because the OP has to sleep as well. Which he did. And now he got up. Have patience please. The OP has life outside the internet.

The latest change of laws, only one of a long series was done hush hush before the the sale of shin corp, that only enabled him to sell shin corp. Before foreign ownership of Thai telekom businesses was restricted to 25% ownership, he amended the law to 49% permitted. There still area few problems though, as you would have seen the situation with Thai Air Asia, which through the sale of Shin Corp suddenly turned into majority Foreign ownership.

The first amendment i can remember was about 5 years ago, soon after he won the asset concealment case. I can't remember exactly, but it was a change in telekom licensing fees that primarily benefitted shin corps, and lost the government vast amounts in licensing fees.

As to your answer on the drug issue you posted in another thread:

No, it was not a friend of my wife, and i don't know what that has to do with anything. It was a man already shot in the leg, unarmed, who was calmy executed by a police officer with one shot in the head from close range.

And if you prefer to believe police officers, then i would advise you to learn Thai, get to know some officers, and then ask them what happened during the drugwar. You will be surprised how many officers do not agree with what happened in those two months, and are rather open about it. You will also be able to meet officers who took part in the killings and are rather open about it.

There is a wealth of information available about the drugwar murders, you just gotta make the effort and read archived files of newpapers, studies etc.

And yes, i have been at several scenes of those killings just after the shootings, and all of them stunk. Sloppy, or no investigation. Drugs being planted rather openly on victims, conflicting witness accounts to what the police were saying. Disappearance of incriminating evidence.

And no, i do not blame Thaksin for the Tsunami, what i can blame him though is that it took 4 days until the government, army, and police made an appearance in Takua Pa district (including Khao Lak) - the heaviest hit district in Thailand. While Thaksin talked rubbish in the 100Km distant Phuket, only about 200 unequipped local rescue volonteers had to deal with more than 10 000 corpses in Takua Pa. I do blame him as well for still surpressing the true number of dead, which is several times of what is officially admitted . And i know that because i was there in those 4 days clearing up the corpses. Hardly any sleep, barely enough food, knee deep in gore.

Anyhow, please read through this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=59741

on the subject of the amended laws...

I just read an article in the bangkok post regarding the series of events leading to the the approval of the "changed" laws.

it seems a proposal was presented to the government to increase foreign ownership from 25% to 49%.

the argument used to justify this change was the fact that most large foreign countries have their foreign ownership limits pegged at 49%. so, the proposal was made to set thailand standards with those of other foreign nations.

this proposal was then placed before the house to decide upon. the house took about 2 years to decide in favor of the proposal.

after the house approved it, the proposal was then passed onto to the senate to decide upon. the senate then also approved the proposal. (but the article did not say how long the senate looked at the proposal.)

if these series of events actually occurred as depicted by the bangkok post, then, how can you say thaksin "changed" the laws?

as I see it between the house and the senate, there are over 500 politicians involved in the approval process.

many of those politicians are not even TRT.

to make an accusation like that "general" did about thaksin "changing" the laws. well, it was basically slander. call it a lie - if you will.

What was the last straw was when Thaksin violated the constitution by muffling Sondhi and suing him for ###### knows billions of baht. Right there he should have been impeached. Abuse of power.

my 2 cents..

freedom of speech is something I also believe in. but that does not mean I believe in slander.

if someone makes untrue accusations about someone without any evidence to back up their claims, that is slander. slander is lying.

the spirit of freedom of speech is the spread of "truth" - not "lies".

if sondhi said things about thaksin that were basically lies, then, he is guilty of slander. in the states, you can sue someone for doing that.

the freedom of speech does not give someone the right to tarnish another persons reputation through the use of lying.

on another thread in this forum, someone made a claim that quote, "thaksin changed the laws so that he could quadruple his weatlh."

I replied, "what laws did he change?" (we have yet to get an answer from the OP.)

this is a perfect example of slander.

if I was thaksin, and sondhi truly did try to slander him, I would have sued sondhi until he was broke.

Hasn't every gov't that Thailand has ever had (in modern times) been corrupt?

Isn't the usual procedure that when a group of politicians want to kick out a ruling gov't what they do is talk about how corrupt the existing gov't is and how they will clean our this corruption....and then the ALWAYS create a new corrupt gov't?

If this is true then why do people think that kicking Toxin out will do away with corruption?

I think that it will not do away with corruption it will just change the people who will receive the benefits of the corruption.

I think that no matter what the gov't becomes that basically it will be the same group of rich people and their family members that will run the gov't and reap the benefits of corruption..the names will change but the game stays the same.

Can someone please explain why it will be different this time?

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I,ll try with my take on the situation without critisizing yours.

Now Thais are at last starting to understand what is at stake and are not prepared to give a

mai pen rai attitude anymore.

You have to look into the future to see the long term benefits of what after all has only just begun.

Look back at past protests and the authoritarian actions taken by the powers of the day,

If you compare then to now there is a world of difference in attitude for reform.

Now the middle classes and all the respected institutions are well and truly affected and cannot easily be brushed aside either from there opposition of the government.

Getting rid of The Kamoy in chief and his cronies is only the start of changing the things you highlight.

Remember they are influencing and blackmailing many other TRT moderates who are not in any position at the moment to change the inbedded corruption that we are all familiar with.

Do not think there isn,t unrest within the TRT at this time just because there is no adverse publicity

coming out.

Finally in my humble opinion,

If things do not change the future is very bleak for Thai assets which will all be sold off and then no one will have any future or control of Thailand.

Do not forget the TRT when it was formed promised to be a party of the people and everyone including most of us foreigners, thought they really where different and truly modern and where going to change

what most people are now witnessing now. " wolves in sheeps clothing " i think is the quote.

marshbags

I was reading where the muslims like to use propaganda to influence the way people think in countries. they would distort the way things are to make that country weak.

could it be we are in the mist of such an attack?

it is well known that some terrorist are operating in southern thailand. confusing the country with these anti-thaksin themes is one good way to divert attention from the murders happening on a regular basis there.

somebody suggested I read this thread. so, I did..

my 2 cents?

who would take the blame in that sort of scenario?

...wouldn't it be the tax accountant? or the lawyers?

it would be the person who signed on the dotted line.... Pin and Pan

in the states, if you hire a tax accountant to do your taxes, and they mess up, they pay for the damages - not you. the same goes for title insurance companies, if they mess up on their side when you buy some property, they are liable.

if thaivisa messed up your one year visa, who should be blamed?

on the subject of drug dealers..

it seems to me that it is a well known fact that dealing in drugs carries the death penalty here in thailand. wouldn't it be logical for a drug dealer to try to resist arrest when confronted by the police knowing that he is for certain going to be executed?

.. my guess is that many did, and as a result forced the police to take them down.

I don't expect a police officer to risk his life for someone who is a drug dealer. if the drug dealer pulled out a gun, I would expect the police officer to shoot him dead. wouldn't you?

There's a wealth of death information available online about the slaughter of thousands. Suggest you read up a bit more on the many cases of people shot in the back, killed in a hail of first-strike attacks, etc.

If the situation was as you describe, I don't think many would object, but since it wasn't as you described, many many people and organizations HAVE objected.

I wasn't at the scene when these "executions" occurred, so, I can't comment about them. your wife may have witnessed one. but in your own words, thousands occurred. since you weren't there at most of them, how can you comment on them? ..just curious, was this drug dealer that your wife witness get slain a friend or someone she knew?

I'm more inclined to believe a police officer over a drug dealer. maybe I'm naive, but I don't believe all police officers here in thailand are corrupt.

I don't know what caused the previous government to not get reelected, but if your prognosis is correct. ..and they are still NOT visible in the villiages like the TRT are.

why would you even consider them as an option to replace thaksin?

if they don't give a s##t enough about the villagers/people out there to spend the time to talk to them, why?

so, do you think they are going to do a better job than thaksin?

thaksin is the best man for the job no matter what his faults.

as for serious consequences, do you really think the country would be better off with the other guys?

most of the problems as I see it was not the fault of thaksin. he has no control over oil prices, guys like soros, or the situation with the poor which has been a problem for ages.

the fastest way out is not a change in government, it is with foreign investment.

it is working with china and india, and it can work here in thailand.

in less than 20 years (I was in china in 1985), china has progressed from a country that looked like cambodia now to their present state which is in many ways like the usa. incredible. ..mostly because of foreign investment.

look at the differences between north and south korea. it is like night and day.

I see you have still not taken the time to read the other threads, nor did you inform yourself any further.

There is a lot of things you appearantly do not know. Why then do you take sides?

To answer your question - being not visible in the villages and doing a better job in managing the country are somehwhat two different matters.

Just because TRT is visible in the village does not mean that he does a better job. For christ's sake - do i have to cut and paste my posts about his catastrophic large scale agricultural schemes so that you can take time to read them.

As to Soros, yes, there is a lot he has to do with him. Just look at the government which was at power at the time Soros was exploiting Thailand's weaknesses, and see where Thaksin was at the time. He was a deputy prime minister, i believe, of exactly that government.

Yes, i seriously think Thailand would be far better off with a government formed by the Democrats. So far, the times the Democrats formed the government, Thailand had the most stable times even with all the inherent faults of Thai politics.

Anyhow, that should be my last post to you here as long as you do not have the decency to stop repeating ad absurdum your uninformed blather, and ask questions that are already answered in threads that were pointed out to you several times by several posters.

Thank you.

Thaksin really hasn't done anything that bad.

Other than having several thousand Thais summarily executed within two months?

Changing laws so that his personal business almost quadriples in worth since the beginning of his tenure?

etc...

so what laws did he change?

as I see it, AIS didn't need any intervention for it to thrive, it was just public demand.

on the matter of several thousand Thais summarily executed within 2 months, refer to my posting in "Ample Rich" something.

on soros.... my guess is you would also blame thaksin for the tsunami, and the problems with the water shortage in the country. right?

on your opinion of the democratic party here. if they are so good, why don't I hear their party implementing anything beneficial to the country in the news? something like "the democrats are helping villagers discover ways to improve water conservation." or maybe "the democrats are working with TRT to find ways to solve the traffic problem in bangkok."

..all I hear about the democrats in the news here is their complaining about thaksin and the trt.

as I see it, if they truly wants to present themselves as an alternative to thaksin and the trt, they should be showing their contributions to the country in the form of deeds.

thaksin is the right man for the job right now because he is the one trying to do things.

many of the things may not be the right things, but then, he is trying.

many people don't even try. all they do is complain.

I read in the newspaper that the king and thaksin are inviting foreign folks over for visits. that's great news because that tells me they are trying to encourage foreign investments into the country.

if sondhi and guys like him really cared about the country, they should stop denouncing foreign investors and encourage them to come into the country.

at the same time, they should help thaksin promote education, and tackle other projects to improve the country.

I have yet to hear one positive thought from them. all they do is complain about thaksin. even I could do that. it doesn't take a genius to do that.

on the other hand, it takes guts and character to try to find solutions to problems.

some of you think thaksin is a dictator like hitler. my reply to that is - you wouldn't be alive if hitler heard you complaining about him back in the 30's.

why don't you go to some of those muslim countries and debate the cartoons with some of those guys, and see where you will end up. probably not too far, wouldn't you agree?

Are they actually denouncing foreign investors or people here who are selling to foreign investors?

it seems to me the general sentiment is the same - they don't want foreign investors here.

somebody suggested I read this thread. so, I did..

my 2 cents?

offshore companies are legit. if they weren't, people would make laws to change them.

of course, if laws were broken intentionally, then, some form of punishment should be given in the way of a fine and/or imprisonment.

on the other hand, if the law was untentionally broken, then, some leniency would be appropriate.

frankly, most of the rich people I know hire tax accountants, and lawyers to take care of their finances. especially when they are really wealthy. there are just too many laws to deal with for a regular person to comprehend, or for that matter, to come up with an effective financial plan.

has anyone ever considered that maybe the people who thaksin hired to take care of his finances are the ones to blame for these current mishaps?

who would take the blame in that sort of scenario?

...wouldn't it be the tax accountant? or the lawyers?

on the subject of drug dealers..

it seems to me that it is a well known fact that dealing in drugs carries the death penalty here in thailand. wouldn't it be logical for a drug dealer to try to resist arrest when confronted by the police knowing that he is for certain going to be executed?

.. my guess is that many did, and as a result forced the police to take them down.

I don't expect a police officer to risk his life for someone who is a drug dealer. if the drug dealer pulled out a gun, I would expect the police officer to shoot him dead. wouldn't you?