durhamboy

My Thai wife was recently granted a settlement visa to the UK under the new rules i.e. for 33 months after which she must then apply for Further Leave to Remain (FLR) and get another 30 months.

What are the requirements for FLR? - presumably they are the same as for settlement - income, accommodation etc plus that we have lived together over the previous period.

My main question is on the English Language Requirement and what exactly is required for FLR. Is it the same level (i.e. minimum A1) as for the settlement visa and, if so, are the passes she got for the settlement visa still valid or does she have to do new tests? Interestingly the passes she already got are valid for 2 years and therefore would have expired by the time she appies for FLR.

My understanding is that she does not need to pass the Life in the UK test for FLR but would have to pass it for ILR. Is that correct? If after the expiry of the first FLR she could not pass the Life in the UK test would she then have to apply for another FLR and so on until she passed the Life test?

Apologies if this all sounds a bit convoluted. I tried to find out the info on the UKBA website and I also looked at the Immigration Rules but it was a clear of mud especially with all these new rules.

Thanks

7x7 - you are not understanding what I have said. Let me say it again - in order to pass the speaking test the candidate needs to READ some of the questions that are IN the speaking test e.g. the first question in the speaking test is reading a passage aloud. I am NOT talking about the reading exam here which you rightly say has to be taken but doesn't need to be passed. Now is that clear?

As I understand it 7x7 your wife never had to take the English Test so you have no practical experience of it. Therefore I dont think that you should be posting comments on how easy you think the test is without having gone through it yourself with your wife. In our personal case the English Test was the biggest obstacle that we faced to get the settlement visa. It took about 6 months of pretty hard graft.

Part of that problem was that we made a mistake in choosing CPA over Vantage initially. CPA were a shambles and she failed there. We then switched to Vantage (who run the BULATS test) and they were very good hence my "fulsome praise". I do wish you would get your facts right before questioning why I recommend a company.

7x7 you say that "The language requirement for the initial spouse visa is A1 of the CEFR in English speaking and listening. This is a very basic level and, as said before, if your Thai partner can carry out a basic conversation with you in English then they should have no trouble in passing this."

Whilst this is true for listening where the answers are multiple choice i.e. pick answer a, b, c, or d and even if you dont know any English if you just guess every answer you will probably pass. This is because the pass mark is around 12% and simply by guessing you should, on a chance basis, get around 25%.

However what you say is not true about the speaking test. One reason for this is that in order to answer some of the questions the candidate has to READ the question. This is not easy for Thai people who have their own script and are unfamilar with our roman script. Also the pass mark is twice as high (around 25%) for speaking.

My wife can hold basic English language conversations. She is highly intelligent, worked abroad in 2 different countries where she learnt the language of each country and she has also run 3 businesses in Thailand. She failed the speaking exam first time - one reason was that she wasnt "miked up" properly for the first 10 minutes or so of the exam and didnt realise it partly because she was a bit nervous and also because she was sitting in an open plan room with about 40 other people all jabbering away!

So please stop telling people that A1 English is easy - it really isnt. The whole system is an absolute shambles and before anyone starts saying that people who come to the UK should speak English (ideally yes) did we learn much of the local languages in places like India and Africa in the old days. How many Brits living in Thailand could pass an equivalent Thai exam? Very few.

_{Thanks Tony. I do recall reading somewhere in the official published guidance to ECOs (I think) that any settlement applications that involve human rights (or humanitarian grounds) should be referred to this RCU in London. So if that is the case then the ECO would have reason to refer it. I may be wrong.}

Situations change don't they? And I think it's a very valid point, what if those points were true, where would we be expected to live? What if I lost my job? We would be forced to be apart! Our child isn't even born yet and so it will be adaptable to live here, but how is that okay without it's Father here???

Can't believe how pessimistic some of you guys are, it's pretty obvious that none of you are going through this, so why come in here and comment so negatively? Should be supportive.You say Good Luck, but not sure how sincere that is.

Kate - I think everyone in this forum is sincere in wishing you success. Some of them are a little prickly when Thailand is criticised but people have different reasons for living in Thailand and what suits one person doesnt always suit another. In your position I would definitely choose the UK over Thailand.

Also, it is true everyone here hasn't gone through what you are going through. However they are quite correct to play "Devil's Advocate" because collectively we have a lot of experience of the rules, the way they are applied and how the UKBA thinks. If things go wrong for you it will be very emotional and expensive. I think you have a good case but people are quite right to point out possible pitfalls especially as there are no known precedents for Article 8.

About 10 years ago I sued the Home Office (now UKBA) over a settlement visa issue. I lost. The Judge said that whilst she sympathised with my case the Home Office owed "no duty of care" to myself or my then wife. I also thought I was morally right but it got thrown out AND I had to pay costs.

Btw, I take it from the lack of posts that no one has heard of this RCU - Referred Casework Unit I posted about earlier?

Penang has loads of hotels from dirt cheap to filthy rich. You can stay in town or at the beach (Batu Ferringhi). Presonally Hotel Malaysia (in town) at RM 100 a night (incl. taxes and buffet b'fast) seems to be quite good but it's a long time since I stayed there.

I found sample tests difficult to find. I think you can download them online but I found it difficult to know exactly what test they were talking about. It's really shambolic how this whole system has been operated. The one good thing about CPA was that they do quite a good leaflet containing a sample test and if you go to their offices in Soi Asok off Sukhumvit in BKK you can pick one up for free. However I would not recommend using them because of so many other bad points about their service. The BULATS test is not the same as CPA so the leaflet only gives you an idea.

Kevin at BULATS will run your wife through their test if she would like. Also they do 4 days intensive training before the test which really helps. If you do the test and training with BULATS it costs B14,950 in total.

Yes its certainly true that B1 is not 1000 times more difficult than A1. However the basic point made by gleeglee is that it is much more difficult to pass. A lot of people that attain A1 standard (which as I have pointed out is not that easy to pass in itself) will find it very hard to achieve B1. There may be lots of problems in the future when people go for ILR.

I may be wrong but there is a department at the UKBA in London called the Referred Casework Unit (RCU) and I thought that any settlement applications which involved the possibiity of denial of human rights (particularly under Article 8) has (or should) be referred to them. Obviously this hasnt been done in this case by the ECO and they just gave an outright refusal.

Nobody in this forum has mentioned the RCU so I am kind of thinking this procedure may have been scrapped but does anyone know about the RCU and what I an talking about?

Btw, I think that the ECO saying that the OP can live in Thailand is a pretty poor excuse to say human rights are not being denied. How do they know that a Thai visa will not be denied? The OP and her child when born are British and they are being denied the right to live as a family in the UK. What if the OP was North Korean - would the ECO say the same thing.

Also, living conditions in Thailand are not the same as the UK. A child is more than twice as likely to die before the age of 5 in Thailand than the UK - 12 deaths per 1000 in Thailand and 5 in the UK.

- Source : World Bank 2011 figures.

thanks heaps eveyone, aappreciate yr advice.

can i reserve a train 35 berth at udon but pay for it when i arrive at Hualomphong station

were you able to book return from penang/butterworthds at a thai station or only fom malaysian railway website..

ok offtopic quet...do u do yr electronic shopping in /alay to save on duty

can anyone recommend where to buy android tablet and ipod in malaysia?

cheers

Not sure if you can book at one station and pay at another in Thailand.....I would imagine you can't.

I booked my return through the Malaysian Railways website (KTM) and sent them an email which they responded to within a couple of days. I dont think you can book the Penang-BKK from anywhere in Thailand.

Btw, book a LOWER berth sleeper seat - the lights are on all night and those in the upper berth get it in their eyes!

The test is valid for 2 years. Whilst she only needs to pass speaking and listening she wouls also have to take reading and writing as there is NO Tailor Made test for the UK Settelement Visa. I would recommend the BULATS test run by a company called Vantage in Bangkok - MD is an American Kevin Cullen (?) who is very hands on. There are 3 test centres in Bangkok (CPA and Pearsons being the other two) and only one other outside Bangkok (in Chiang Mai)

I started a thread on this topic about 6 months ago and there is a lot of info there about the tests if you can find it. Actually passing it is not quite as easy as people say - for example whilst you dont need to pass reading you have to read some of the questions to pass speaking and listening!!!!!

I'm not sure if the UK Settlement visa test is changing in Summer to include reading and writing. I thought that might be for ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain) but I may be wrong.

Wildly off-topic I know, but I also was thinking about doing the same trip on that service #35. However, the Thai Railways website didn't seem userfriendly when it comes to actually booking. I think I read somewhere that the 1st-Class sleeper berths get booked up a long time in advance. Any hints on the best way to book without actually having to go to Bangkok?

First class is only available Bkk-Haad Yai-Bkk. For BKK-Penang I think it's all 2nd class sleeper which happens to be quite good.

Best website is Seat61 - loads of info and photos.

You can book 60 days in advance from a Thai railway station. I did it at Hualomphong in Bangkok and it was easy.

Regarding demand for tickets it's hard to be sure but I believe you can even get a ticket on the day - my friend did that.

Actually i am doing the same thing in a few days time - train to Penang although I have made a return booking which, btw, you dont have to pay for until you pick up the ticket at Butterworth. So if you dont pick it up they would simply cancel it and sell to someone else and it wont cost you a penny. Suggest you do that.

Btw, I think it is extremely unlikely that they will ask for an onward ticket when you enter Malaysia - I've never been asked and I've entered M'sia many times.

7by7 - We discussed this before in a previous thread. In this context the relevant exception that the UK Govt. would rely on, as you say, is probably "the economic well-being of the country" i.e. that the family might claim benefits that they would not have got had they not been granted a UK visa.

Personally I think that that interpretation would be hogwash. I really cannot imagine that an Article on Human Rights would be so petty as to exclude people's rights for the sake of a few benefits. As I said in the previous thread I reckon that the thinking behind this exception when it was drafted was that people who had major criminal convictions in their own country e.g. for credit card fraud, bank robbery etc could be excluded. Yet to be tested in the Court.

Yes we did, in order to appeal the decision we had to apply initially. I was weary at first but my parents were in contact with Kings Chambers lawyers who advised us on the best way to go about getting my husband a visa.

They are based in the UK and plan to hire a big shot immigration QC, i forget his name, to appeal the case. The lawyers did say there was "a slight" chance that we could get it first time around, but we're not getting our hopes up.

Thanks for your kind words, we are in for a crazy few months think.Thanks also for bringing attention to the Parliamentary review, it looks very promising. I sent out my evidence today. Here's hoping we get somewhere!

We applied on the 16th October, i got an e-mail through on Monday saying they had looked into it (as they had gone over the 12 weeks) and found the decision has been made, my husband is on stand by in Thailand waiting for his passport now.

It seems like your lawyers might be looking ahead to going to the European courts on human rights grounds. They would indeed need to have the application refused in order to do that, I think. Good for you, and very brave to submit an application knowing that it might be refused. But, an expensive exercise for you in the long run, unless you can get legal aid, I would guess.

Good luck !

Yes Tony I was thinking that as well. I really hope that they grant the visa on humanitarian grounds but I think that is very unlikely - I'm not even sure that ECOs can make such a decision. So it would seem that, regretfully, the application will fail on the financial grounds. Likewise any appeal will likely fail on the same grounds which then leaves the European Court of Human Rights and, in particular, Article 8 concerning the right to respect for private and family life.- subject to some quite wide ranging exceptions which I dont believe have ever been tested in this context. It would likely be a very expensive exercise and could really only be afforded by people on legal aid or have +62k in the bank (in which case you would get the visa anyway!)

I wish you the very best of luck and please keep us updated on events if you can.

Visa granted!

Wow I just got an email saying that the decision has been made!!!!!!!!!! They say I can pick it up in 2 working days - now as today is Wednesday would that be Friday or Monday?

Dec figures now up, only 7 applications. 1 was done within 3 days, 1 was done within 15 days & the remaining 5 took took 60 days.

Makes you wonder why a few on here are still waiting when they are near the 12/13 week mark.

Studying these seem to reveal that the ECOs are not working on a first in first out basis.

At the beginning of December we know that they had applications from me, Kiggs and Steve dating back to October.

2 decisions were made in December that must have been from applications submitted November at the earliest i.e. :-

a) 1 decision made in 3 days - so if decision made 1st December then earliest date application submitted is late November.

1 decision made in 15 days - so if decision made 1st December then earliest date application submitted is mid-November.

I can only think that there only possible excuse is that somehow these were emergencies.

Kiggs, Saturday will be 19th January i.e. 3 months and we can email the embassy via VFS. I suggest if we dont hear by then we both send them an email making this point.

Steve - can I ask you what date you submitted your application so I can work out what will be the 60th working day for me. Thanks.

Btw, it is another public holiday here in Thailand of sorts - schools seem to be closed but businesses open. Not sure if it counts as an embassy working day.

To all you guys that say a Thai 1 year driving licence is not a FULL licence - HOW DO YOU KNOW?

It says on the license, in Thai, that it's a temporary license.

The DVLA cannot answer the question so I really cannot see how you know.

Does it really come as any surprise that the UK DVLA can't asnwer a question about a Thai drivers license that is written in Thai!

It says Temporary NOT Provisional. Therefore it is only limited by time as many FULL licences are. The real fact is that neither you, nor anyone else in this forum knows the answer. It is quite a leap from saying "I dont think it is a full licence" (which is a fair enough comment) to "It isnt a full licence". If you are going to make statements of fact then be sure of your facts before you do so.

Furthermore the DVLA dont know when they should know. Their website has specific sections for the validity of foreign licences and also specific queries on foreign licences. There they just say that a Thai licence is valid for a resident to use and they dont differentiate between 1 year and 5 year licences.

As for you other guys having a pop at Thai driving abilities. Well you are probably right that the standard of driving is not as good as UK but you can say that for a lot of countries where licences are issued without time limit and they can then go and drive on UK roads (as visitors or residents). Yes the number of accidents here in Thailand is horrendous but I think that a very large percentage of those involve motor bikes. The actual standard of driving cars is not that bad in my opinion.

Anyway I've decided to take the advice of 7x7 and not "let her loose" on the UK roads with a 1 year Thai licence. So thanks for the advice.

The UK Border Agency has made a decision on your visa application: AUTOMATED EMAIL PLEASE DO NOT REPLY (Ref: 658643)

Steve - good luck. Do you know if the decision was made on the 60th working day?

Figures for December are pathetic and obviously what these figures dont show is those in the pipeline (i.e. no decision made yet) which includes you and me!

To all you guys that say a Thai 1 year driving licence is not a FULL licence - HOW DO YOU KNOW?

The DVLA cannot answer the question so I really cannot see how you know.

I think the real answer is that no one knows and it would probably take a court case before a decision on it was made.

Btw, a couple of other points :-

1. I got a number of insurance quotes on line with my wife as an additional driver.

2. I am not going to say why my wife hasnt got a Thai licence but many Thais do not bother getting one because the law is not enforced and if they are stopped then a few baht normally does the trick. Don't blame the drivers (why should they be the only ones in step!) blame a corrupt police force and a society that allows this nonsense. I see kids as young as 10 driving motorscooters while the police do nothing and pull over the farangs for no crash helmets.

Yes I can drive thanks and I will do most, if not all, of the driving. My current thinking is that probably this is more trouble than it is worth because :-

1. She would only be able to drive for 1 year after which she would have to take the UK test.

2. The insurance quote was more than double for just me.

3. I dont want my wife to be the first one taken to Court - although I think we would have a very robust defence.

Goose - it's really difficult to say when a visa will be ready. What you said is true about recent waiting times. Currently there are 3 of us in this forum at the 60 day mark. Sorry cant be more help. Good luck.

Isnt it disgusting that we get charged c.900 quid for a visa and VFS want to charge us an extra 75 baht for a couple of 2 baht SMS texts! I believe you just get 2 text messages - one when it goes to the embassy and one when the decision has been made.

Also their "Tracking" system is a joke - only 2 messages and the same as the SMS - one tells you it has gone to the embassy and + 3months later it might tell you it has come back when you would have had an SMS and email to tell you this anyway. So what purpose does it serve?

Once again 7x7 you are assuming knowledge about a situation where you do not know the full facts! My wife has actually driven for many years without incident so I am not putting a novice driver on UK roads.

It dam_n well does make a difference if the alleged words "Type Temporary Car" are in English or Thai. First of all if she had to produce her licence in the UK and the words are in Thai then almost certainly no one could understand it so there would not be an issue.

Secondly, if it is in English (I am currently trying to find someone here with a 1 year licence so I can see) then what does "Type Temporary Car" really mean. Is it a 100% correct translation? If you really analyse it as it is then the only contentious word is "Temporary" . This means limited by time and, in this respect, a 10 year UK licence is no different from the Thai licence as they are both "Temporary".

I dont make the rules and I have tried to find out about them. I sent 3 emails to DVLA who finally came back and said basically that I must decide. I therefore have evidence that I have gone the extra mile (no pun intended) to be aware and follow the rules. Now in that case do you really think an application for FLR/ILR would be refused? I think you are the one that must be crazy if that is what you think.