durhamboy

Apparently, there is a Judicial Review hearing in the Upper Tribunal of the Appeal court next week. It is a challenge to the new requirements, along the lines of :

The legal challenge on 7 November 2012

The Court is asked to do the following

1 Declare that appendix FM and HC 194 of the immigration rules are not sufficient to satisfy the requirements of article 8 ECHR.

2 Do not have the effect of primary legislation

3 Must be read down so as to defer to the case law on Article 8 by ECHR and the obligations of the tribunal under primary legislation.

In addition, the government has just had a setback in the IAT on the "scope and meaning" of Article 8 private and family life in the rules introduced in July. The relevant determination is MF (Article 8 – new rules) Nigeria[2012] UKUT 00393 (IAC).

Hopefully the JR hearing next week will produce a similar result.

VisaPlus - do you know what happened at the Judicial Revue?

Thanks

Justiceft96 - for what it's worth I used to be a commercial lawyer and about 10 years ago I sued the Home Office over a spouse visa issue. I personally took them to the County Court and lost and had to pay costs. The judge said that whilst she sympathised with my case the Home Office did not owe a "duty of care" either to me or my then wife. Therefore it seems that the Home Office can do what the hell it likes and you have no recourse in the UK courts.

It would seem that the only way to get justice is the European Court of Human Rights - I think Article 8 is the relevant one about the right to family life. In my opinion I think on the face of it you may have a case as you are being prevented from living as a family in your own country (which is obviously within Europe). However, that is only my opinion and others may differ with me (as above). Going to Europe I'm sure would not be easy and it may be that you would have to sue in the UK courts first to establish a legal refusal by the UK Government. It probably is a minefield and may be very costly (especially if you lose). I really wish someone sometime actually does it and kicks the UK Government from here to eternity.

I wish you the best of luck.

"I don't know what further explanation can be given beyond what I said in posts #52 and #75, and VisaPlus' very detailed exposition in post #76 of why the airlines will not carry passengers who are not properly documented. If you think it's worth trying otherwise, go ahead, let us know how it works out."

It will probably be at least 2 years before I even think about a trip to Europe but when I do I will try to get responses from the carrier and embassy about the fact there is no need for a visa. It strikes me that as this directive has been around for 8 years it is because people have not been asserting their rights that there is so much ignorance about this issue. There must be thousands (probably into the tens of thousands) of trips to Europe where a visa is not required. Let you know in 2 years!

I'm still rather confused by this. 7x7 (a very respected member) here says a spouse does not need a visa. Is that 100% true? If so, is everyone just getting these visas for the sake of protecting their travel arrangements to prevent being held up or refused at borders? If so, then surely a couple of emails (one to the carrier one to the respective consulate) would be worth trying first.......maybe I've missed the point somewhere.

Latest figures on settlement visa processing times from UKBA for applications in Thailand for month of September 2012 are

Within 40 days = 5%

Within 60 days = 100%

Total Decisions made = 20

Remarkably few decisions - anyone have any idea why there were so few applications? Is it the new rule changes and everyone rushed to get applications in before 9th July so now there are very few?

When they say days I think they mean a working day i.e. 5 = 1 week so 40 days is 8 weeks lapsed time.

It would seem from the figures that the "average" wait time for a decision was about 50 days or 10 weeks. Maximum wait time was 60 days or 12 weeks.

Correct - Listening is 60 out of 495 and Speaking is 50 out of 200 which means that Speaking is harder to pass.

I heard somewhere that UKBA will accept genuine scorecards. In our case my wife also got a certificate from BULATS so I submitted that plus the scorecards.

She shouldnt need the test in the UK. Even though the TB Cert is only valid for 6 months it would have been valid when you entered the UK. Probably the UK hospital is unaware of the TB requirements now in force for UK settlement. Previously there was no requirements and tests were done in the UK (usually at Heathrow) but I dont know when this changed.

It's worth remembering that strictly speaking, if she is traveling with or to join you, she actually doesn't need a visa at all!

The European Commission sitesays

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It's always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by any means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

Some countries may fail to apply EU law correctly, and your family members may be denied their rights. If your family members are having difficulties getting a visa, you can contact our assistance services.

So arriving at an EU entry point with you, your passport and your marriage certificate and they should let her in.

However, to avoid possible delays while immigration staff check I would advise getting a visa beforehand.

Note that the freedom of movement regulations, and therefore the above, does not apply if entering the country of which the EU/EEA national is a citizen; except in certain circumstances such as the Surinder Singh ruling.

I have been reading this thread with great interest. It seems that many people dont know that they can travel freely around Europe with their Thai/Foreign spouses and families. This must be happening thousands of times a year and people are applying for and paying for unnecessary visas plus putting up with the admin nightmare.

The first problem is whether the carrier (airline/boat co.) would accept a Thai passenger without a visa.

May I make a sugestion. Could someone send an email to some of the major carriers and destinations e.g. :-

BA to Barcelona

Air France to Paris

Lufthansa to Frankfurt

Alitalia to Rome

KLM to Amsterdam

Eurostar to Brussels

Norfolkline to Dunkirk (from Dover)

and say something on the lines of "I would like to take my Thai wife on a vacation to ................. on your carrier. I understand from the EU Directive issued in 2004 (Quote exact reference) that she is entitled to travel to said destination without a visa. Could you please confirm that if I were to purchase tickets that you would not deny her boarding your carrier for reasons of not having a visa. We will of course be bringing along a copy of our marriage certificate as proof of our relationship"

See what they come back with. Then if any of them say that a visa is required then send a follow up email saying that they would be in breach of European Law and make themselves likely to be sued for denying someone's right to free movement in the EU. Again see what they say.

When positive replies have been obtained from the carriers then send an email to the embassies/consulates of the countries concerned posing the same question.

Anyone up for doing that? I would do it myself but I am in Thailand right now and just applied for the UK spouse visa.

Many thanks TVE. I will keep the photocopies separately filed.

You say that VFS remove copy of marriage cert - do you mean photocopy of marriage cert or original?

You also say that they remove passport copy - presumably that is my UK passport photocopy rather than my Thai wife's passport?

Thanks again.

Sorry guys but could you please help me with another naff questions. When my wife goes to VFS to present all her documents in a nice neat folder should all the photocopies be in a separate section on their own or with each relevant original or does it matter?

My inclination is that for clarity to put each copy with the relevant original but I seem to recall reading somewhere that VFS insist they be in a separate section on their own.

Sorry to ask such a basic question but I really dont want her to get there and have to re-sort out all the photocopies from originals especially as I understand that I cannot go into the VFS offices with her.

Thanks a lot!

Ok did the online application and got an appointment for submission at VFS.

They directed me back to the UKBA for the Appendix 2 regarding the financial requirement etc. I printed off the form "Appendix 2 (VAF 4A August 2012)". Am I right that my wife should complete this form manually and submit it rather than some sort of online process?

Many thanks in advance.

Thanks TVE - saves a bit of photocopying blank pages.

Yes my funds are in my name and under my control for +6 months in an instant access account.

Many thanks to all posters - here goes!!!!!!!

Thanks O.G.

Fortunately I qualify with savings over 62,500 so no need to show employment status.

Btw, TVE what do you do about copies of UK passports for your clients - do you submit copies of all the blank pages?

Cheers!

Just got married to my Thai fiancee last Friday and sometime this month I will make the UK Spouse Settlement Visa application to VAF - noting that the price has gone up yet again because of the exchange rate!

Anyway, I have a few queries regarding the required documents :-

1. Is it really necessary to submit my and my wife's birth certificates? I would have thought that as birth dates are in our passports then that is sufficient.

2. We are both divorced and will submit original divorce certificates. We do not have the marriage certificates relating to those divorces. Anyone see that as a problem?

3. It says on the UKBA website that I need to submit a full copy of my passport. I presume that is the bio data page and the stamped pages but does it also include the blank pages?

4. I read in a previous post here that all the documents (of which there are many!) can be submitted in a folder and VAF must accept this, Can someone confirm this please?

Many thanks.

Is PTE Pearsons?

BULATS has more business like questions than TOEIC but one of the main BULATS selling points is that the questions are computer adaptive which means as the candidate progressively gets answers wrong the questions get progressively easier until the candidates ability level matches the questions. Also with regard to Speaking for some reason the A1 pass with Bulats is only about 10% whereas with TOEIC it is 25% - just shows what a shambles this whole thing is really!

Bulats is slightly more expensive but worth it in my opinion - I believe most visa agents recommend Bulats to their clients.

Hi Gerry,

Your fiancee needs an A1 pass in Listening and Speaking but please refer to the topic I started recently :-

Toeic - English Language Test; Uk

Started by durhamboy, 2012-06-13

You should get most of the details there.

Actually I didnt say I'd spent B20k on TOEIC but the whole thing i.e. :-

TOEIC 5000

BULATS Tuition 8000

BULATS Test 7000

= 20,000

Plus numerous other ad hoc expenses probably making it about B25,000 in total.

However, you are right in that I FEEL ripped off by the whole dam_n process!

Its now $30 at the border and sometimes if you go by bus they try to take you to a Cambodian Consulate on the Thai side (glorified restaurant actually) where they charge you $40 for "express" service.

"With regard to internet banking, we acknowledge the fact that original statements may not be produced and will accept the internet printouts especially if they are backed with other forms of original evidence such as employment contracts and wage slips."

Visa Plus, many thanks for this.

Thought I'd give you an update and share my thoughts about this process.

Well she passed after switching to BULATS after failing TOEIC - Thai Diamond you are right in retrospect my decision was myopic and we should have gone with BULATS first. We did visit both companies before deciding and my fiancee felt a little more comfortable at TOEIC because more Thai people working there and they were able to give us brochures whereas BULATS didn't.

At TOEIC she initially passed Listening (A2) then took Speaking at a later date. TOEIC were extremely bureaucratic with payment for the Speaking test. For Listening we paid by cash on the day but Speaking I had to pay in advance by bank transfer and then have to fax a copy to them of the transfer receipt! Also we tried to change the appointment time - they were running 4 tests on the same day so a switch was easy - then they said that will be one thousand baht fee for changing! I told them that they were being ridiculous! The Speaking test itself was a zoo - so many people all speaking at the same time which was off-putting. Also she was not "miked up" properly for the first couple of questions - her microphone had slipped out of position until she realised - I think this was the reason she failed because she got 40 out of 200 and one comment made by the examiner was "unintelligible answers". TOEIC only run Speaking tests once a month and it has to be sent to USA for marking which takes a further 3 weeks. Therefore a failure can mean a delay of at least 2 months before you take the test again.

Went to BULATS and took their tuition and test package for B14,950. Very good personal service and she got a B1 for Listening and A2 for Speaking. They really made an effort to make sure she was comfortable about everything and that she passed. BULATS test every week and all results are available in a few days.

My overall thoughts about it - take BULATS not TOEIC. I have spent more than B20,000 + numerous trips to Bangkok on this whole process for the sake of satisfying UKBA criteria for a visa. It is all very well to say immigrants should speak English (which they should) but we werent so concerned about things like that when we moved millions of labourers from one country to another for the sake of the British Empire! There are a huge number of practical difficulties with these tests - appalling lack of information about the tests, confusion about what the scores actually mean and differences between testers, not enough test centres and only in Bangkok and Chiang Mai, no tailor-made tests, having to read questions to pass Speaking when Reading is not required to be passed.

Hope future candidates find this useful.

Many thanks for the replies - kinda thought that you couldnt do it. A friend of mine did a visa run to Cambodia and the company he used got his entry in and out of Cambodia (Poipet) without him actually going in!!!!!!! Still had to pay the visa fee though.

I went to Cambodia last time and instead of paying $30 visa fee I had to pay $40 as the bus company took us to a "Cambodian Consulate" on the Thai side (glorified restaurant actually) where they said this is for express service and the border queues are "very long" !!!!!!!!!

Hi, anyone know if it is possible on a visa run to exit Thailand at a land border e.g. Laos and re-enter Thailand without going into Laos thereby saving the ridiculous Laotian visa fee and the hassle of going in.

Thanks

Hi, I'm British, 59 and currently on one of these 1 year visas with visa runs every 90 days. I'm planning on marrying my Thai fiancee soon and I was wondering if I can change my visa to married status and thereby saving the visa run every 90 days.

We are planning to go to UK early next year so I will probably have only 1 more visa run to do so I would only want to change visa status if its easy and doesnt cost much.

Thanks in advance.

Visa Plus - I did pop into your office and spoke with one of your ladies. She wasnt 100% sure about internet accounts but she did say that many of your clients in the UK scan and send original bank statements which your office then prints out for the visa applications. There was never a problem with this. She was very helpful.

Cheers

Thanks guys - Romfordboy you are right that BULATS (which is where my fiancee got her B1 in Listening) does have a 2 year validity but I think this means that they (BULATS) guarantee that level for 2 years. There are many reasons that people do BULATS tests not just UK spouse visas. I also asked the question of Kevin Cullen the MD of Vantage running BULATS tests and he didnt know.

I would have thought that if you achieve B1 before going to UK and then live there for 5 years then you really should not need retesting.......but who knows?

Cheers