durhamboy

Far be it for me to contradict OG but I thought that self-employed income could not be combined with any other income. That certainly used to be the case for the initial settlement visa and further leave to remain. Maybe things have changed.

If this covid-19 lockdown continues for a longer period there must be a lot of people who might be struggling to fulfil the financial requirements for spouse/partner uk visa and extensions etc.

Thanks rasg, that is very interesting. I was thinking that it could be that you get more if you apply near the expiry date so you have confirmed that might well be the case.

You also raise another interesting issue i.e. does that mean that while the extension is being processed is the applicant technically staying without a visa? On the face of it that would seem to be a moot point except, as you go on to say, that may affect your application for ILR after 5 years. The cases you describe seem very harsh to me but somehow don't surprise me. Just another example of this awful spouse visa system and the ineptitude of the home office.

Ok so it would seem no one in the forum is aware of the inner workings of the Home Office on this topic. Fair enough, it is often extremely difficult to fathom how they do things. Quite the worst organisation I have ever come across and they would never survive in the business world.

Anyway word of advice to those of you that need to make FLR applications. Check the dates they give you as it could be they give applicants less than 2 1/2 years in some cases. Guess we were lucky and got more than 2 1/2 years.

Has anyone here noticed that when the Home Office grants FLR they give slightly more than 2 1/2 years?

When my wife got her initial visa in Thailand in 2013 she was correctly given exactly 2 years 9 months. However, when she did her FLR in 2015 the expiry date was 27 days longer than it should have been. I thought this might have been resolved when she did her next FLR. It wasn't and she was given a further 1 month and 7 days extra. So in total she has been given 2 months and 4 days extra.

This makes quite a big difference in our case because she will most probably qualify for ILR when she is 65 - LITUK being too difficult for her. So by my calculations she will require 1 less FLR than if the exact dates had been maintained by the Home Office. This would save us about £2,000.

Anyone noticed this anomaly or does anyone know exactly how the Home Office calculates the dates? Does it depend on the date the FLR application is submitted - it shouldn't but it's a bit of a mystery. Maybe we have just been a bit lucky for once!

Rep. of Ireland is not in the schengen area so I don't think a schengen visa applies in this case. 

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/visa-waiver-programme-oct2016.pdf/Files/visa-waiver-programme-oct2016.pdf

It appears that if you have a short-stay UK visa (i.e. less than 180 days) you do not need a visa to visit Eire. However, if you have a long-stay UK visa you do need a visa. Can anyone explain this craziness?

Also, how does all this square with EU Directive 2004/38 concerning free movement in the EU?

Modo, well done on standing firm on your rights and getting the expedited visa. Interesting that there was no service charge although the courier fee looks a little excessive - more than twice the courier fee I paid for our Belgian schengen.

One thing puzzles me. I thought this process was for visas up to 90 days. You wanted and got a 2 year visa. If you don't mind my question - why did you want a 2 year one? Thanks.

Can definitely be done. My wife had more than 2 years left and she easily got another one. I think the Thais are happy to do it as it gives them more income. For us, it saves a trip to the Embassy in London which I think is mandatory now if you apply in the UK.

rasg, I think you may be wrong. The advice given is that you apply to the country where you are spending the most time. I suppose you could apply where you will be arriving and they may grant it but they might not and may then refer you to the country where the most time is spent. That would mean more delay and expense (may be a free visa but there are other costs involved). 

The country where you spend the most time cannot decline the application because it is made to the wrong country.

I think what the OP was told by the Dutch authorities in his original post is correct, i.e. it is the country where she will be staying the longest that she should apply to.

Norway is not in the EU but is in the schengen area. Therefore she gets the visa from Norway but is stamped in at Amsterdam. I don't think it makes any difference if she steps foot in Norway or not. She will be on the ship which will be in Norwegian waters for most of the trip.

Whilst all of this was going on with my wife's schengen visa I booked our flights with a well known airline. Before and after the booking I was in touch with them at some length to try and ascertain if, seeing as my wife is entitled to a visa on arrival, she would be allowed to board the flight at check-in without a visa. I sent a copy of her BRP. 

They refused to answer the question and instead advised me to go to the consulate in question and get written evidence from them regarding passport and visa requirements. I made the point, many times, that this is a situation that must have occurred many times at their check-ins throughout the country and therefore they surely must have a policy about this. I provided all the facts and merely asked what would their check-in do. They steadfastly refused to answer.

I feel that their response is in violation of consumer legal rights. After our journey, I am seriously considering suing the airline via the "small claims" process for the costs we have incurred in obtaining a visa that shouldn't really be necessary. I would be grateful for any thoughts you guys may have. Thanks.

Yes o.g. that is a good point about the 59 month rule. My wife just got her schengen visa from the Belgian Embassy (via the VAC). If, for example, we went to Spain next year can she skip the biometrics when applying to the Spanish authorities? Btw, that is assuming the status quo is maintained i.e. no Brexit. Thanks.

Malct, I have just been through this process so please refer to my recent thread "Visa Free Travel in the EU".

Actually it is not that easy to do for the reasons I detailed in the thread. Your main problem is the time and expense as you live in Cumbria especially if there is no VAC in the North which your wife would have to attend in person for biometrics to be taken etc.

Based on rasg's and Donutz replies, and my own opinion, I did another follow-up email (in my wife's name) to the Belgian Embassy. A very quick reply said the following :-

"You are right, according to the EU Directive 2004/38, a visa should be issued free of charge “as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure”.

This means that, whenever possible, a visa should be issued within 15 days from the date the non-EU family member of an EU citizen appropriately proved that he/she would accompany or join the latter to the EU Member State.

Your visa application was received at the Embassy on 02/07 and your visa issued on 11/07. The full processing time was less than 15 days, which is in compliance with the EU Directive.

Waiting times for an appointment are, unless mistaken, not covered by the EU Directive. We nevertheless strive to give the earliest appointment possible, especially to non-EU family members of EU citizens."

Personally I would have thought that "an accelerated procedure" included waiting times for appointments. Also, I don't know where they get the 15 days from - possibly in some sort of guidance somewhere.

The bottom line is, as we suspect, the Embassies don't want to be bothered with the administration of these visas. They want the outsourced company to do all the work so that they can just stamp the passports.

rasg, I quite agree.

Rasg, one would imagine that they do or should have to make the appointment expeditiously. From memory, I think the EU Directive talks about the process as a whole but doesn't separate out the component parts of the process. Therefore I would say that it implies that they should make the appointment asap.

I emailed the Belgian Embassy (in my wife's name) and, very quickly, got the following response :-

"Dear Madam,

Thank you for your email.

As an EU dependant, you did not pay the £54.00 visa fee, but you did pay a service fee to TLScontact. Whether the visa is free of charge or not, there is a service charge to be paid to the outsourcing company. This is common practice.

This said, our website also mentions that you have the possibility to lodge your application directly at the Embassy.

In accordance with the Visa Code, every visa applicant reserves the right to submit his or her visa application directly at the Belgian Embassy or Consulate competent for his/her place of residence. In order to do so, the applicant is required to schedule an appointment by email with the mission concerned. Please note that waiting times are longer than at the VAC. Appointments may only be made via email on [email protected]

Sincerely,"

It is true that their website does mention having the possibility to apply directly at the Embassy and that waiting times would be longer than at the VAC. That delay seems to fly in the face of the EU Directive requirement to make such visas available expeditiously.

Thanks Modo for your comments. We have now got the visa so I'd like to share the quite onerous process involved in getting it.

This was all done by and through TLSContact which is the company the Belgian embassy has outsourced to. They also handle visas for France & Switzerland.

Firstly complete application form on line and submit - quite easy. Then you can pick the day and time for your submission and for biometrics to be taken - again quite easy and at least gives you the chance to plan your visit.

Take all documents, both passports, marriage certs and certified translation, brp, copies of hotel and flights bookings etc.

250 mile journey to London, stay in hotel (plus 250 miles back again).

Go to TLSContact which is near Olympia - not that easy to get to - we walked from Earls Court which took about 20 mins.

Get there to find only my wife is allowed in. I had to give her all the docs. etc and wait in a waiting room. Waited 2 hours not really knowing what was happening. No mobile phones allowed by my wife. One lady told her that we had gone to the wrong country as we were arriving in France. Eventually realised her mistake because you go to the country you are spending longest in which in our case was Belgium.

Wife had to pay £26 service charge plus £15 courier fee. This was supposed to be a free visa (and the £56 visa fee was waived) but would have been totally free if the Belgian embassy had not outsourced. I will take this up with the Belgian embassy.

TLSContact - kept my wife's passport and all the copies of the hotel and travel bookings (these were not returned with her passport and therefore I need to reprint them all). Passport took 2 weeks to be returned.

Visa was issued for 1 month with a stay of 15 days.

Total cost to obtain this visa (travel, 2 nights hotel, meals etc) c. £400 to £500.

Needless to say that future trips to Europe will be few and far between.

Ok I finally got some responses from [email protected].

The first response said :-

"With regards to your email attachment of the resident permit, you
spouse needs to apply for the visa to visit schengen countries even if
she is travelling along with you.
 
She is eligible to apply under the EEA/EU national family member
category.
 
She needs to apply for the visa to the country where she is going to
stay more number of days."

I then followed up with another email asking them to confirm that she would be entitled to a free visa on arrival. After about 2 weeks and a couple of reminders they came back and said :-

"In regards to your below query, kindly note that there is no free visa on arrival. You will have to apply for a visa before travelling to Netherlands. For Belgium, you'll have to check with the Embassy, as VFS doesn't deal with Belgium.

So, if they are correct, my wife has to have a visa and, at least as far as The Netherlands is concerned, there is no visa on arrival free or otherwise.

Personally I have decided to bite the bullet and go to London and get a visa. The whole thing is just so convoluted that it simply isn't worth the aggro and risk a rejection at the airport. Good luck to anyone that tries it.

Dear oh dear 7by7 here you go again. Please read my posts. I said at least 3 times that I suspect you and others are correct. I was prepared to leave it at that but you obviously are not.

As you have chosen to continue this and make comments that I do not accept the answers given everytime I come here for advice then I shall make the following comments which have only become necessary to make because you have, as previously, thrown your toys out of the pram :-

1. I decided not to continue in this forum about 3 years ago solely due to your petulance. Please see my final PM to you sent at that time.

2. It is totally ridiculous, and something of a slur, to say that I wont accept answers given and refuse to accept advice etc. I have taken advice in this forum many times and been grateful for it. I thanked you for confirming that my wife would be entitled to a visa on arrival.

3. Whilst your advice in this forum is generally very good you have made mistakes in the past. I am particularly thinking about the acceptance of an English Test certicate for FLR that is more than 2 years old. So therefore I don't necessarily accept things you say just because you have said them. For example you highlighted the the advice given in an advisory EU website "They have a residence card as an EU family member, issued under EU rules by any EU country (except the country you are a national of), ...." (your quote above with your highlighting). When I informed you that these words were not in the actual EU Directive you said you can not be "assed" to take a look. So why should I accept your advice just because you say something but cannot be assed to back it up? Btw, a simple phrase search of the whole Directive reveals this phrase is not there.

4. Interestingly no one in this forum has posted that they have been refused entry to the EU when taking their foreign spouse there for a holiday without a visa. Rasg knew of one couple that successfully went without a visa. So why is that when, according to you, everything is so clear cut?

You say that I can't take no for an answer but I have said, more than once, that you are probably right. So it is actually you who can't take yes for an answer.

Dear 7by7, thanks for your comments but I fear that we are, as happened many times before, getting into unnecessary arguments. There are a number of things I could come back to you on but I don't really think that it would serve much purpose so I will just thank you for confirming that my wife would be entitled to a visa on arrival.

I suspect that you are correct about a number of things but, in my opinion, the EU directives and related advice are not clear to me nor, I would venture, would it be clear to 99.9% of the EU/EEA population.

At the end of the day, we just want to go on a 10-day holiday and I am trying to assess my options about my wife's visa. The schengen info helpline I wrote to have written back to me asking for a copy of my wife's BRP which I have now sent. I suspect they will write back confirming your view that it is not acceptable for visa free travel to the EU. I will post what they say so hopefully others in this forum are not as confused as me when wanting to visit the EU. Brexit will no doubt change everything yet again.

Thanks again 7by7. It seems our posts are crossing over and therefore may appear out of sequence.

You say that there is no hidden agenda by anyone. That is a pretty bold statement. I merely suggested that there may be vested interests in play.

You further say that the rules and regulations are there for all to see in the actual directives and guidance. Problem is that the directive (38) and the guidance are not entirely in sync therefore causing confusion. 

Thanks 7by7 for your comments. I would comment further :-

1. You say my wife could be my American cousin (!!!!). Ok probably you meant to say Thai cousin as she has a Thai passport. I would obviously take our marriage certificate with us and an official translation.

2. Yes the guidance you quoted is based upon the directive but it is not the directive itself and the words that you highlighted are, as far as I can see, not in the directive nor are there any similar words.

3. You say "Your wife's FLR residence permit is not a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. It makes no mention of her being so anywhere on it and was issued under the UK's immigration rules, not the EEA regulations."

So what does "Spouse/Partner" mean to you especially when we have the same name and we are travelling together with our marriage cert? Yes her card is issued under UK's immigration rules but isn't that true of all (or perhaps nearly all) cards issued in the EU i.e. they are issued under the immigration rules of the respective countries where they live? By the way, where did you get that sample residence card, from what website?

4. Furthermore you say quite categorically that she needs a visa. So would that also include a visa on arrival?

Btw, my username gives no indication as to where I live and it shouldn't be inferred that it does.

Thanks rasg and donutz for your practical advice. It's certainly true that no one wants to be prevented from embarking at a UK port of departure through not having a visa.

The schengen area has been in existence for 24 years (since 1995) and the EU directive 38 on free movement commenced 15 years ago (2004). So this is obviously not a new thing and therefore you would expect to find a definitive answer quite easily. Could it be that there are vested interests in the UK and/or EU who would prefer not to tell non-EU citizens that they also have the right of free movement when travelling with a family member who is an EU citizen? Just a thought.

7by7 "The directive applies to all EEA members and Switzerland, not just the Schengen states."

My response - yes agreed. The point I was trying to make was that the directive makes no mention of the Schengen states anywhere and therefore there are no exceptions for member states who are not part of the schengen.

7by7 "Donutz does, and he has given his reply."

My response - with great respect to Donutz, what he posted was what some websites say but is at odds with the 2 websites I quoted.

7by7 "Your wife has FLR and so a residence permit issued under the UK immigration rules. Therefore her permit does not say that she is a family member of an EU/EEA national. Only EEA family permits issued under the directive will say that."

My response - Her permit says "Spouse/Partner", she has the same family name as me and we are travelling together. Is that not proof positive that she is a family member of an EU/EEA national?

7by7 "

Thanks rasg, I really appreciate your efforts. 

Interestingly the EU Directive 38 does not even mention the word "schengen". It refers to Member States which the UK still is.

I am wondering if anyone really knows the answer to this question.

I am awaiting a reply from [email protected]. Their automatic response says they try to answer all queries within 48 hours. It's about that now.

Also I called the Belgian visa application centre in London (TLS contact). After about 10 mins with no one picking up the call I was advised that they would call me back and the call was cut-off. Two days later and I'm still waiting!