PaullyW

I'll turn out the lights.

Will they refrigerate the food on the trains or let it sit in the heat and fester like they do with food on the busses (even upscale ones)?

Would not trust it as Thais are good at many things, but, quite the opposite of the Japanese, food safety is NOT one of them.

The "only 3 posters are reading this topic, so I'm going to hold off on all my witty posts until a better time" brigade.

Again, I think discussing value is more interesting and useful than discussing price.

It can be argued that Thailand, at the lower end of the price continuum, provides good value in a host of areas. Food is certainly one. Intimate attention is another. Thailand does this reasonably well because a much larger percentage of the population looks for value at this price point. Example: you can have what many would call a great meal at just over 1 USD. However, if you look for value at the upper end, say, a great quality and well prepared steak in a seaside venue, like, say Miami Beach, then you will not often find great value here.

Countries like the US and OZ, it can be argued, provide exceptional (but perhaps dwindling) value at the middle. Large middle classes, so no wonder. Also, one of the of great qualities of a large and strong middle class -- something Thailand is completely lacking -- is the price pressure the class puts on both the lower and upper ends of the price continuum. In Thailand you have no pressures at the top, and especially because of the wealth stratification here and the fact that the upper end is very far and away from the low. One result of this is that prices are grossly inflated you might say at the top. Luxury items here (with the exception of the hotels industry in Thailand which is arguably still a very good value) are hardly ever a good value.

Just simple market economics really.

The "I only post when I think I can come across as wise" brigade.

The "I take as truth everything I see/read/listen to on the net" brigade.

Isn’t it funny that many expats come to Thailand because it’s so much cheaper than back home? But once they are here, they just start complaining… “why is it not like the west in “this” and “that”?”

Well if Thailand is like where you all came from, then many of you wouldn’t be able to afford living here anyway.

I’m sure many thais are also wondering….if you don’t like it so much, why don’t you go back home?, where you can be a fully legal resident, no more extension or visa run, work in any job you want, have properties in your own name, organized traffic, better education for your kids.. etcs.

So why are many of you still putting up with things you don’t like so much here?

And it’s so ironic to hear many here complaining so much of… many things that are broken and know how to fix just about everything/issues in thailand, while their country is falling apart as we speak LOL. Why don’t you all go back and try to fix your country first, before picking on someone else country?

Don’t you know that many thais would give up the sun and the moon, and would love to have the opportunity to be in your country? ….’cause they think the grass is sure greener over there LOL.

I know who are you talking about here, and I get the sentiment. BUT, not really...

What I complain about most are things that are purely stupid. A place being cheap should not require rampant stupidity and danger.

Most of the Thais I work with, more than half of whom have lived abroad and been partially educated abroad (most in fully developed countries, and even those who have lived and studied in China) have much in common with us bitching and moaning expats. Sure, they are slightly less biased perhaps because they have seen the Thai side thoroughly, and they sometimes seem to criticise Thailand slightly less harshly for this reason, but they bitch and moan as well.

Which Western or developed Eastern countries are falling apart? Much of the developed world economy is experiencing challenges, but you simply cannot really equate that to what is happening in Thailand. It's not a fair equation. Thailand is lacking deeply fundamental structures (like the rule of law rather than rule of man, respect for human life and dignity) and ideals of most of the developed world. Respect for education and a desire to integrate (even a little) and learn from and share experiences with the world community. They are lacking. They are lacking curiosity about the world around them, something most of the developed world moved beyond many centuries ago. When you find Thais who do have some understanding of right and wrong, they are most often lacking in any courage to take a stand on the issue. Rather, they allow fear of negative consequences rule them and cower away.

These are not things that can be fixed easily or quickly. Some of them are things that will likely require generations of Thais to improve upon, least they install a ruler who wants to move them forward quickly in one generation ala China.

The developed country issues are most heavily at the moment those which are transient (economics) by comparison and can be fixed relatively quickly.

Then how come, that "we" from a developed country, with all our educational advantages, our feeling for social fairplay in society and our curiosity for the world around us, still make the choice to move here in the first place??

It is not like the information about the negative sides to Thailand is not out there.

When I moved here more than 10 years ago, I knew all about the nonexistant rule of law, the social injustice and the rampant corruption. Still made the decission to move here, but I don't complain about the state of affairs here, as I am here by choice.

When 90% of Thais think that corruption is part of (and accepted) normal business-practice, who am I to teach them otherwise?

There are all kinds of reasons why people are here.

1. some were sent here by their companies

2. some have sacrificed to move here to make their loved ones happy

3. some are interested in learning and know that learning / experiencing something new is not always fun or will provide us more comfort than our previous lives/locales

4. some who complain incessantly may not much like it here or anywhere else in the world they've been- some are simply not impressed with the world

5. others who complain about Thailand incessantly actually like more about the place than they dislike but why should it stop them from sharing their opinions?

As for your question concern who you are to tell them otherwise, I imagine you are someone who is selfish, like me, and doesn't care much abou them at all. If you did care, your position might be different.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if TVers who can read Thai stumbled on a Thai board dedicated almost entirely to bitching about foreigners, there would be a huge outcry. Kicking, screaming and gnashing of teeth. Cries of 'they dont want us !'.

News flash - they dont HAVE to want anyone - it's their country. Might be different if you have a Thai passport, but how many here have such a passport ? Oz doesnt recognise 'dual citizenship', so it would mean handing over my blue passport for a green one - how many of us have the balls to make that committment ?

Time to harden up, Princesses.

As of 4 April 2002, there are no restrictions (under Australian law) on Australians holding the citizenship of another country. My wife & stepson have Thai & Oz citizenship with passports & perfectly legal in Oz and Thailand. I hold citizenship for three countries, including Australia. It's the "other" country that may have restrictions for holding dual citizenship

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/dual_citizenship/

You'd think that a person who is truly worldwide with business interests across the globe would know something so fundamental like that...

The real question is what guys like OP think is so special about themselves, besides having won the birth lottery and gotten on an airplane.

Ah yes, the birth lottery - Malcom Gladwell and others have elaborated on this. I don't know what's special about me. How would you define special, and I'll think on it and get back to you.

What I find attractive is that I can have a slender 30's age woman with beautiful skin, great body and is a willing partner who looks as good in the morning as she does the rest of the day.

Being realistic, to get that back home I'd have to be loaded or 20 years younger.

Their black hair, white teeth, brown eyes and the colour of their skin ..... scrumptious!!

They taste good too

They do indeed taste just about right. I think it's all the sour and salty stuff they eat that makes them taste nice if a bit on the tangy side.

Isn’t it funny that many expats come to Thailand because it’s so much cheaper than back home? But once they are here, they just start complaining… “why is it not like the west in “this” and “that”?”

Well if Thailand is like where you all came from, then many of you wouldn’t be able to afford living here anyway.

I’m sure many thais are also wondering….if you don’t like it so much, why don’t you go back home?, where you can be a fully legal resident, no more extension or visa run, work in any job you want, have properties in your own name, organized traffic, better education for your kids.. etcs.

So why are many of you still putting up with things you don’t like so much here?

And it’s so ironic to hear many here complaining so much of… many things that are broken and know how to fix just about everything/issues in thailand, while their country is falling apart as we speak LOL. Why don’t you all go back and try to fix your country first, before picking on someone else country?

Don’t you know that many thais would give up the sun and the moon, and would love to have the opportunity to be in your country? ….’cause they think the grass is sure greener over there LOL.

I know who are you talking about here, and I get the sentiment. BUT, not really...

What I complain about most are things that are purely stupid. A place being cheap should not require rampant stupidity and danger.

Most of the Thais I work with, more than half of whom have lived abroad and been partially educated abroad (most in fully developed countries, and even those who have lived and studied in China) have much in common with us bitching and moaning expats. Sure, they are slightly less biased perhaps because they have seen the Thai side thoroughly, and they sometimes seem to criticise Thailand slightly less harshly for this reason, but they bitch and moan as well.

Which Western or developed Eastern countries are falling apart? Much of the developed world economy is experiencing challenges, but you simply cannot really equate that to what is happening in Thailand. It's not a fair equation. Thailand is lacking deeply fundamental structures (like the rule of law rather than rule of man, respect for human life and dignity) and ideals of most of the developed world. Respect for education and a desire to integrate (even a little) and learn from and share experiences with the world community. They are lacking. They are lacking curiosity about the world around them, something most of the developed world moved beyond many centuries ago. When you find Thais who do have some understanding of right and wrong, they are most often lacking in any courage to take a stand on the issue. Rather, they allow fear of negative consequences rule them and cower away.

These are not things that can be fixed easily or quickly. Some of them are things that will likely require generations of Thais to improve upon, least they install a ruler who wants to move them forward quickly in one generation ala China.

The developed country issues are most heavily at the moment those which are transient (economics) by comparison and can be fixed relatively quickly.

Language is difficult no doubt.

A couple problems with Thai in particular are

1) Thais often don't speak Thai well - don't forget, many are not terribly educated here, so when the machine tries to translate, it's often hindered by 'incorrect' Thai

2) Thailand lacks many computer engineers who are interested in this technology -- you can't write the code engines without well-educated (in Thai) usually native speakers

3) Thai has a very 'flowery' history of making its communications purposefully obscure (same as ancient sanscrit) which Thais find pleasurable and beautiful about their language (for example, many alternative endings/spellings for words)

4) number 3 leads to an overuse of idiom in Thai which can only be translated by complete idiomatic reference and not word by word

5) an extremely complex, ancient Pali and Sanscrit written/reading rule base which is only followed about 50% of the time requiring not only complex language decision trees but also a very long list of exception handling built in

At any rate, when a text is written in 'proper' middle (Bangkok) Thai, without heavy use of idiom and other forms of regional expression, the translation engines tend to do OK, IMO

EDIT:

6) Thai is a very contextual language that does not lend itself well to objective writing as many things are often omitted and left for readers/listeners to interpret. English and other Germanic/Latin languages, by contrast, are the exact opposite. Very direct and 'wordy' with little usually left to interpretation unless purposefully done so for specific purpose. How does a language engine cope with such a phenomenon?

There's the "I can equate everything that happens in Thailand with things that happen in the US in equal amounts and degree because Thailand the US are perfectly alike, after all" brigade.

Some might argue Cambo women are not only cheaper but often more attractive as well, especially when you get one of those with some French blood and the nice pink nipp.... you know.

others might argue that those who use expressions such as "Cambo women" are

Is it derogatory? If so, I didn't know.

You would need to meet at least two or three hundred from each country and know them intimately before you could comment on their 'mentally' with any real pertinence.

I personally find the way they can cheer me up on a bad day, a very attractive quality.

Perhaps it is their 'childish' outlook that puts a pleasant slant on an increasingly grey and dull serious mentality held by many Westerners.

I have never considered their place in the world of beautiful women, who really cares about such a crass classification?

Must be a slow Sunday for some of us

Not so sure your statistical approach is really necessary. Some people are better than others and some worse than others at judging these kinds of broad, common characteristics. Some might need far fewer and some far more intimate interactions to come of a correct generalisation.

Many do enjoy the childish outlook. I do too when I'm being physically intimate, but not when I'm talking about finances or home ownership or career choice or the safety of family. Sadly, most of my time is not spent between the sheets being intimate.

I only care about this because I find human decision making fascinating.

Not sure if someone already mentioned it, but LOS women are pretty cheap still.

-

Lots of guys would disagree, but of course they're not doing it right.

Some claim to have real relationships that end up costing very little or even where she pays her own way!

And a very select few (most likely young and hansum if not also hi-class and/or wealthy) actually marry into very big money.

So horses for courses. . .

Yep, true. Many would indeed disagree, I fear. Perhaps I should have commented that women in LOS are still a good value at the hourly rate. The lifetime fee is probably not as great a value. Diminishing returns and all that.

Yeah, just personal preference I suppose. Thailand is like a constant, perpetual childlike gathering. I have to seek Thais nearly twice my age to have more serious interactions. But, I'm a serious guy; they are typically not. Fine.

-

If you want to be serious, definitely in the wrong place, considered mental illness here.

I prefer my silliness as a bit of slap and tickle in privacy rather than out in the streets, but with playmates twice my age? I think not.

Ha! Twice my age is still with the living, thankfully. But, I can be silly, just not all the time which Thais tend to be.

Bump.

Anyone know of any Chinese style massage places in BKK? Tuina I think it's called.

I've tried FedEx (bad experience - rip-off on taxes), DHL (worst experience - rip-off on taxes), Thai Post (not bad - usually not taxed aggressively), and, most recently TNT (surprisingly very good experience - only minor, reasonable taxes)

You can contact them and ask how much they will charge you for the shipment.

Good luck

T : 66 2 257 6464
F : 66 2 134 6005

TNT Express Worldwide (Thailand) Co., Ltd.
Suvarnabhumi International Airport, Customs Free Zone, T 201, WFS-PG Cargo Terminal, 999 Moo 7, Rachethewa, Bangphli, Samutprakarn 10540
Thailand’s Standard Official Hours : Mon-Fri 8:00 AM-17:00 PM (GMT+7)
THAILAND
www.tnt.com

Like most Thai festivals, group activities of any type, Songkran leans on the intensely childish side seemingly more appropriate for adolescents than any other age group. Hard for the typically more adult-like personalities of Westerners to enjoy such childishness. It would be akin to adults getting as amped up as the children to go Easter egg hunting. Quite silly by all Western standards.

On the other side, I have no gripes about Thais enjoying it. They certainly do know how to be 'sanook' as it is fundamentally important in their laid back culture.

A little sillyness is good every now and then

Yeah, just personal preference I suppose. Thailand is like a constant, perpetual childlike gathering. I have to seek Thais nearly twice my age to have more serious interactions. But, I'm a serious guy; they are typically not. Fine.

If you take make-up and attractive cothing awy from women pretty much everywhere, they would be much less attractive, but, in general, Thais would still stand out if all were equal.

Really?

Well, it's really a complex thing, beauty.

But, what I think is that what many, many of us Westerners often find most attractive about Thai girls is

1. that there is a glut of them at an average age that is significantly younger than average in many Western countries (ok fair, but how many of us are looking at older, 35 and above Thai women to draw our conclusions...?)

2. We tend to favor the ones (sometimes secretly and sometimes frustratingly) the Thais (Thai-Chinese) with the more Chinese phenotype (not truly Thai, perse, but predominantly Chinese)

3. The fact that Thailand is a tropical country where people wear less clothing (starting taking clothes off Chinese women in Shanghai or Japan)

4. The made up looks that are so ubiquitous that we take it as naturally occurring (like the faked lighter skin, fake pretty eyes, etc.) -- like thinking that all South Koreans look like their little girl bands because so many get surgery...

Personally, what I find most unattractive about most Thai women (even the so-called elite class of typically Thai-Chinese girls) is that they are most often entirely without mentally. Absolutely, staggeringly uninteresting.

Now, Chinese girls I've met from mainland, Japanese women (more often than Thai), Latin American women, Brazilian women -- all are more attractive in my opinion.

Through ''your'' eyes, and Thai mentality has something to do with being ''unattractive'', how?.

Yes, perhaps my choice of words may have been a bit off. But, surely you agree that the vast majority of human attraction begins and takes place in the mind and not the pants, right?

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

I like this question because it's far more complex than most understand.

To answer it directly, "we" are members of the world community which, despite the history of nation building, is far less arbitrary than the concept of nation.

If we care about our Thai cousins, then we try to encourage them to improve (yes, from our own perspectives). It's the way the world has been for a long time. We collaborate and teach to each other and learn from each other how to improve our world. In my opinion, it's quite selfish to do the "who are we to try to help them?" thing. Mind you, I am super selfish and cannot be bothered to help them, but it is indeed selfish.

Now, you do have a point that they surely are not obligated to listen. That is their choice. Ours is to express our views just as you have expressed yours.

"(yes, from our own perspectives)". What if "we" are wrong? My feeling is, that the average Somchai is happier than the average Joe in the west. So instead of trying to westernize Asia, maybe we should try the other way around, "Asianize" the west?

Our children, when young, are surely happier than they are as adults, and the same can be said of Thai children vs Thai adults, yet, why is that? It is because most of us agree that life's purpose is more complex and varied than simply seeking blind happiness at the expense of many other important human virtues such as safety and stability.

Wonder how many drunken machete fights will be on the Channel 3 news on the first night.

Yes, now this is always interesting to watch.

If you take make-up and attractive cothing awy from women pretty much everywhere, they would be much less attractive, but, in general, Thais would still stand out if all were equal.

Really?

Well, it's really a complex thing, beauty.

But, what I think is that what many, many of us Westerners often find most attractive about Thai girls is

1. that there is a glut of them at an average age that is significantly younger than average in many Western countries (ok fair, but how many of us are looking at older, 35 and above Thai women to draw our conclusions...?)

2. We tend to favor the ones (sometimes secretly and sometimes frustratingly) the Thais (Thai-Chinese) with the more Chinese phenotype (not truly Thai, perse, but predominantly Chinese)

3. The fact that Thailand is a tropical country where people wear less clothing (starting taking clothes off Chinese women in Shanghai or Japan)

4. The made up looks that are so ubiquitous that we take it as naturally occurring (like the faked lighter skin, fake pretty eyes, etc.) -- like thinking that all South Koreans look like their little girl bands because so many get surgery...

Personally, what I find most unattractive about most Thai women (even the so-called elite class of typically Thai-Chinese girls) is that they are most often entirely without mentally. Absolutely, staggeringly uninteresting.

Now, Chinese girls I've met from mainland, Japanese women (more often than Thai), Latin American women, Brazilian women -- all are more attractive in my opinion.

Like most Thai festivals, group activities of any type, Songkran leans on the intensely childish side seemingly more appropriate for adolescents than any other age group. Hard for the typically more adult-like personalities of Westerners to enjoy such childishness. It would be akin to adults getting as amped up as the children to go Easter egg hunting. Quite silly by all Western standards.

On the other side, I have no gripes about Thais enjoying it. They certainly do know how to be 'sanook' as it is fundamentally important in their laid back culture.