PaullyW

I speak decent Thai (read, write OK as well). Once you have the language patterns/grammar down, much is simply knowing vocabulary...

Anyway, I put in time to become OK (not fluent, perhaps) in Thai, but it was largely not worth it in my opinion.

Of a certain age (beyond my teens and early 20s), I am sufficiently comfortable in my being and sufficiently different and lack much in common with the average Thai. Most of the people who would have anything interesting to say to me speak --- English well enough to converse. So, Thai, for me, is largely a dead language. Of almost no value whatsoever. Biggest benefit is simply the cool factor and impressing women (who are easily impressed).

The news papers in Thai - waste.

The news in Thai - waste.

Literature in Thai - largely non-existent.

Save your time, folks. It's not worth it.

Learning Thai does not make much available to us.

Congratulations... This may be one of the most biased and negative posts ever.

It's a trite comment but true: his stated view says loads about him and little if anything about Thais or Thai.

Personally, I have had, and regularly do have, meaningful and enlightening conversations about religion, politics, social issues, quality cinema, literature, relationships, travel, family, psychology, and business and on and on...not a week goes by where I don't have some good conversation in Thai (with Thais from backgrounds ranging from taxi driver to PhD holding colleagues and everywhere between). And that's been the case for decades.

Surely they do exist.

What I should have said is that such people (in any country) are often a great deal of work to find. Thailand, with the education system killing intellectually curiosity in many Thais and then teaching the non-confrontational nature as well, it's really hard to find suitable friends/family members/coworkers/etc. and doubly also quite difficult to have open conversations with them when there is disagreement.

I have lost Thai friends in the past over simple disagreements about esoteric topics.

All to say that, in such a case, learning Thai has dubious value if you 1) can't find suitable conversation partners, 2) even among conversation partners who find topics of discussion interesting, you fear for expressing differing views about a topic.

I never reply to these things, but something should be cleared up (some posters have, but here I go again): most Thais, like 99% of them can speak and understand standard Thai. Even the long neck ladies out in the boonies in the North can. I have been to all the regions and never once run into someone who just didn't speak Thai (unless they were actually immigrants from another country) and I have definitely been to out-of-the-way places in all the regions. Never learned any of the Northern or Southern dialects. Just spoke Thai to them.

As for staying longer, you can just use standard Thai and people will slowly point out the local variants to you. Of course, they can and will code switch, so you just have to get used to that. But if someone really wants to talk to you, they can easily just switch back to Thai.

I cannot imagine how it would be to live here without learning Thai. It changes the way people see you and interact with you. Several times, somewhere in the countryside, I have had the same experience: sit down for a coke or a beer. Order in Thai. The shopkeeper, who had been kind of apprehensive about my presence, suddenly would do a 180 and just be so happy to talk to us. Neighbors get called over. Then, invariably, after they finish freaking out about me speaking Thai, they start in about the Falang in the area, no matter where he is from, who has been there for 10-15 years or whatever and can't speak a word of Thai. It irks them. They don't say they hate the guy, but the resentment is clear.

But for me, beyond how others see me, it is just about enjoying being here. I can't imagine not being able to make small talk in a store, get things I want without a babysitter, etc. Granted, sometimes I turn out to be that babysitter for recent arrivals, but I don't mind. I just wouldn't want to do that here for years. Many of the negative reactions to foreigners just disappear when you can have basic conversations.

That leads to another point. A lot of posters are saying it is too difficult. Well, it all depends on what you want to do. It would probably take me several more years to ever even dream about taking a university class in Thai, but I don't want to. On the other hand, I can sit down with a beer/whiskey/meal and have a group conversation and get along understanding most of what it said and I can even contribute to the conversation. Most conversations here are not about rocket science--they are about people and things happening now.

Of course, it is difficult at the beginning, but, having learned other Asian languages, I remember starting out and mispronouncing words so badly that people couldn't understand me. Now, I can't even remember how I mispronounced them. It's a matter of time, practice and persistence.

Learn what you need to learn to enjoy living here more.

Good post. That is one side of things.

The other side might be me. I don't get any enjoyment at all from making small talk to people (in any language). The world is bleak. Life is largely arbitrary and short. There is no god or afterlife. People, for the most part, care only about themselves and will not think much of you when you are no longer here.

So, against that backdrop, I really don't want any small talk. I like to have 'more meaningful' (what is meaningful to me) conversations with people. However, even in Western countries, among rather educated populace, most people don't want to have deeper conversations. It's more comfortable to just gossip or to find other ways of creating likeness and forming and nurturing human bonds. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't really need much of it. When I want that feeling of connectedness, I can just do as I'm sure many do and find a young thing to spend some short time with.

Thailand is a place that is particularly hard to find a deeper conversation. You will not find many Thais who wish to discuss (in Thai or English and with Thais or non-Thais) any serious issues such as cultural, economy, politics, violence, religion. Even the most elite are mostly interested in talking about the 'new' Som Tam place and other, innocent current events. That's also beautiful in itself -- to be so simple, but some of us just don't enjoy that I'm gathering. I don't. I can have similar conversations with young children...

EDIT

And, I'm fine just like this. And, would have been just fine if I'd not learned.

But I wasn't complete honest in my earlier post, or, rather just forgot to mention something. One of the things that does make being able to read Thai useful is being able to read (for the most part) food-related stuff that is not apparent from simply looking at a dish/item. Of course, the labels often don't mention half the stuff in the food anyway!

Sorry, but Thais never learn anything. They don't learn in classrooms, they learn nothing from repeated political violence and carnage, and they will never learn anything from road toll figures.

Nothing like damning a while nation with scorn and judgement !.... Are you sure 'They all' don't learn anything ?... My Wife learns, Oh, wrong thread for the 'she's different comment'...

Thailand is developing and as it develops issues such as road safety will improve. If we were to look back at our own history we can see the drink driving, seat belt and helmet laws all coming into effect and meeting resistance. Thai's are learning, they are probably learning at the same pace we did, but it takes a generation or two for it to really sink in as it did in the West.

i.e. I never had a child seat or rear seat belts in the 70's when I was a child. My father probably had a few glasses of wine when driving home from a friends after dinner etc... it was the norm, we were simply not as aware of safety back then as we are now.

In a few generations time (20 years perhaps) many of these issues will / might be nailed out if the government chooses to educate the public and correctly enforce regulations... change is slow but it will happen.

Thailand in many cases appears to be 30 years or so behind the West regarding many issues. Hopefully, while society develops it can also avoid many of the negative aspects we have pick up in the West (such as loss of community, riots, random violence, confrontationalsim etc)...

Of course they are slowly moving forward. But, if they are indeed learning as slowly as we did, that's concerning because we had to learn everything from 'scratch'. It was all new to us. The cars, the highways, the traffic, etc. If Thailand never looks outward with any seriousness, it will have to make all the same mistakes and perhaps others that could have been avoided.

I speak decent Thai (read, write OK as well). Once you have the language patterns/grammar down, much is simply knowing vocabulary...

Anyway, I put in time to become OK (not fluent, perhaps) in Thai, but it was largely not worth it in my opinion.

Of a certain age (beyond my teens and early 20s), I am sufficiently comfortable in my being and sufficiently different and lack much in common with the average Thai. Most of the people who would have anything interesting to say to me speak --- English well enough to converse. So, Thai, for me, is largely a dead language. Of almost no value whatsoever. Biggest benefit is simply the cool factor and impressing women (who are easily impressed).

The news papers in Thai - waste.

The news in Thai - waste.

Literature in Thai - largely non-existent.

Save your time, folks. It's not worth it.

Learning Thai does not make much available to us.

7. But even so, the fact that nearly 40 per cent of this year's accidents involved neither alcohol or speeding remains unsettling. The next thing we learn, though, may offer some explanation.

8. More than 222,000 motorists were charged with driving without a license during Songkran. Some may have "forgotten" their licenses at home, but there must have been a fair number of amateur drivers or riders out there who didn't need to be drunk or speeding to be involved in accidents.

This just identifies that the driving standards are poor. The fact that 222,000 motorists were charged for driving without a licence tells us that there is a huge number of un-trained drivers / riders on the road. Not just in Songkran, but all year round.

The solutions are simple: The current licensing procedures are comically simple. Improve the quality of training and testing and the accident stats should also reduce automatically.

The idea that these articles (and Police or whomever else comments) tries to blame alcohol, speeding, no helmets etc is all mute point. It is the current driving culture which must be blamed. It is the people involved with permitting the masses to drive untrained and without care of concept of consequence for their thoughtless actions (for the most part).

Attempting to lower next years Songkran stats is simply not realistic, especially when attempting simplistic and publicity grabbing crack downs which do very little other than create a photo opportunity. These 'simplistic' measures show that the authorities really don't care a great deal, there is no long term effort to improve this situation. The response and yearly crack down is typically lazy and lacks thought.

Improvement can start now - but it has to be intelligent improvement. By Intelligent improvement I am talking about a re-vamp of the licensing structure. With improvements in driver education, testing and licensing the next generations will reap the benefits in reduced stats, not just over a headline hungry 6 days, but throughout the year.

In the short term: If Policing was able to make inroads into ensuring more drivers / riders were correctly licensed, that might help reduce accident numbers but until the 'masses' i.e. the majority of drivers / riders themselves change, change won't take place and we won't see any improvement.

Agree.

Drivers need to change (both culturally - maibenrai doesn't work on the road as well as technical skill).

But, also the roads and traffic engineering need to change. You have all kinds of problems with the roads here. Lack of traffic lights and people executing u-turns on highways. Very poorly paved, maintained roads with holes in them which drivers will try to avoid by swerving into other lanes. Lack of road lights illuminating the road - it's pitch black along most roads in Thailand. The crazy, sudden and sharp inclines and declines on the roads where the road is built over Khlongs. Etc.

Thailand really does have a long way to go. Almost everything is wrong.

Law enforcement - lacking.

Culture of responsibility to safety of others - lacking.

Defensive driving - lacking, replaced by Asian mentality of 'you watch out for me because you don't want to get hurt'.

Traffic engineering/road quality - lacking.

Alleviating heavy commercial traffic on roads by shifting higher burden to rail - lacking.

Sure, why not. You?

You have to admit some have some (they think unique ways) of getting tips.

I have seen them postpone giving change, if the change will be a worth while tip

Some forget to bring the change and if asked, say 'I thought it was tip'

Some will ask if change is a tip

Some will just ask for a tip

Some will ask for a drink for themselves, from your change, made for food/drink

At school start up times, they tell how their kid need new shoes/uniform, etc

Then there are those who will short change to top up earnings

those who ask of the tip left "is this for me" so they bypass tip box/share

I just take all things, the service, meal/drinks into account, and do what I feel is fair for the situation.

I think ensuring it bypasses the tip box is a possible. Some restaurants separate the service from the money, ie the person bringing the tab, returning with the change and hanging about to see it a tip is forthcoming is different than the one who took care of you. I like to think the tip is going into a tip-box and equally shared, but I bet not.

I don't like when tips are shared amongst the other workers. It means that a few hard working, service-minded people have to share with the lazy ones. If the others are waiters as well, they could work for their own tip. The only one that perhaps should get some part of it, is the cook, as he/ she does not get in touch with the customers. Though, a better option would be a tipping box at the door specifically for the cook.

To answer the question of the OP. I can't recall any situation where the waiter was waiting for a tip, but I don't live in a touristy area. Well, actually I do, but 99% are Thai tourists. So, that might answer the question if they do the same with Thais.

However, I do have to say that I usually skip the expensive restaurants, maybe it's more common practise in these places.

I agree, but we won't soon change the sharing thing. It's a very Thai cultural thing. They share everything, for better or worse. Sometimes I admire it; sometimes I detest it. Usually depends on whether I've had any recently.

Chanel wife beater. Pathetic. Typical.

Fashion Note: It is not a wife beater if the following conditions are met:

The wearer is;

1. Young, i.e. under the age of 25

2. Good looking and in good physical shape with muscle tone.

3. Wearing a a clean garment of the appropriate size.

4. Not covered in tacky tattoos and/ or distinguished by a fat gut.

Sorry, but the attire is acceptable for a 17 year old in a hot climate.

I believe a great many of the comments in this thread are motivated by petty jealousy spat out by ugly old men that envy the kid's youthful physique and ability to attract the ladies (or perhaps the boys as he was at RCA).

The boy's father is scum. Ok, but that hardly gives anyone an excuse to pick on the boy. The kid did not do anything wrong despite someone saying that his wife thinks so. Personally, I wish I had been able to hit the clubs at 17. Unfortunately, I was young for my age and too busy with school. Some of my classmates used to do that and they are no worse for wear.

If you think that he has muscle tone for a 17 year old and you think a Chanel (albeit fake) shirt of that type is acceptable for any young man, and you think he is good looking, then I will have to leave you to your own opinions as they are quite different from mine.

What I mean by my comment is that his choice of shirt is typical of rich kids who would love to think they are tough. Rich is not tough. Powerful is not necessarily tough. There are truly tough Thai guys aplenty around this country, but you would not catch most of them in a Chanel lady shirt.

Hitachino Nest! That's great stuff. Hope you can get some Red Rice Ale...

Chanel wife beater. Pathetic. Typical.

I think it's safe to say that most of living here in Thailand will hope for them to lose. Anything to help the country grow up is good. If not destructive war, then perhaps at least a major international defeat on to lose substantial FACE

I think you should publicise your views in Thai language on a T-shirt and wear it for a week.

And some people call Thais two-faced...

I think you should publicise my views in Thai language on a T-shirt and wear it for a week.

And, also, I'm telling mom that you ate ice-cream before finishing your vegetables. You're in trouble now!

My Thai girlfriend says Bangkok is the centre of the world and Thailand leads the world in most things. She is completely brainwashed and stupid.

My Thai girlfriend says Bangkok is the centre of the world and Thailand leads the world in most things. She is completely brainwashed and stupid.

But, I bet she is hot, hot!

It is a bit aggravating to go into a restaurant and be handed a menu with over 200 items on it and have the waiter standing there waiting for you to order. They do it to everybody, both Thai and Farang. I just ask them to give me some time to look at the menu and will call them back over when I'm ready to order. Works fine for me with no problems. Hasn't anything to do with tips so I don't know how the thread got of on that tangent so fast!

They are used to doing that because Asians (including Thais) are consensus builders/collectivists and as such have learned from birth and later in life require assistance with nearly everything they do. Have to ask the waitress a thousand questions about Som Tam they've been eating their entire lives... It's cute to see them do it but highly annoying for thinking Westerners who can handle making the choice between Som Tam and Phad Thai alone.

Being completely facetious here.....

The next Mega project; Move all the vendors 10m from the walkways, then move all the walkway structures ,bus stops and trees a further 7 metres away from the roads ( as recently suggested by the Road traffic accident chap ) !

Nah , I say let them be .It all adds to the mystique and character of Bangkok.It's not really a major danger to anyone and in a masochistic way it's good fun for the tourists (and gives them something to talk about back home).

Heaven forbid they turn Bangkok into the sterile Hi-so city that Singapore is !

It doesn't have to be Singapore (which is nice but exceedingly boring). But, there is a better balance between function/safety/and character. Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and certain Chinese cities all spring to mind. Being Thailand doesn't mean doing everything (stupid, without thought) which is totally against modern progress and comfort, safety, is it? Is that what will define Thailand as Thai? Sad, if that's the case.

You have your view that some share and others do not. No troubles.

Whatever you said of your view on the subject does not make what others have said here untrue. Whether you like something or not has no impact on the truth of corruption/financial success/how poorly planned and executed the project is.

Some blokes have pitifully low standards, and particularly blokes (many who led cheap and unsubstantial lives in their home countries) who end up old and cheap and over here in Thailand, and there are plenty of Western countries and cities and projects which too are poorly planned and executed and rubbish, so your anecdotal experiences in your hometown are too largely irrelevant.

Whether we like it or not has much to do with things which, by their very nature, are self-serving, selfish. You like it because it serves you well. Problem is that it might not serve many other people as well as it should or be as inexpensive as it should be or as convenient as it should be or as good for the Thai people or Thai's image as it should be. Most of us judge things according only to our selfish ambitions.

Cheers

My anecdotal experiences? As a user of the system what other experiences can I possibly have other than first hand anecdotal experiences? I don't need to scientifically analyse the system to know if as a user I find it adequate. I do like it because it serves me well, and clearly another 50,000 passengers a day agree with me.

Like I said PaullYW: As a system, not comparing to others, it functions fine and is reasonably priced.

From your post you don't seem to find anything good about the system. You complain of long walks to platforms and 'hidden' escalators, tursnstiles too small, abhorrent signage...

I suspect that you are a man who is not easily pleased with any facet of his life Paully.

Hmmm, seems the point was lost on you. The point is not to suggest that you could have any other experiences than your own. Rather, the point is that your experiences are only your own.

50,000 people riding doesn't mean that the system serves their purposes as well as it should/could. Do you get that? Perhaps it is the best option among all poor options. Do you get that?

Yes, I think that as a new project of its type in a country that is allegedly recently industrialised, it is rather poorly planned and executed. But, to evaluate such matters, one might benefit from some type of engineering, or large scale project management, or transportation-related experience. Someone who is judging the system from the point of view of "well, it gets me to where I'm going, and I like it just fine" is not likely the kind of person who would be sophisticated enough to properly evaluate such a mega project from a business perspective.

As for your guess about me, yes, I find much to complain about, but I am happy with a good portion of my life. Mostly though, it has to do with money and sex. Is that acceptable?

Cheers and have a great afternoon. Found a wonderful Thai-manufactured cream liquor that I think I like better than Baileys (and others I've tried in the US). Great stuff.

You only have to look at Hong Kong and Singapore to see examples where eradication of wholesale corruption has had enormous social benefits in raising living standards of the general public. It is no coincidence that both share impeccable public transport systems and airport links. Both airports are superb (Changi almost to a fault) and both easily accessible by rail link from nearly anywhere.

In stark contrast, Thailand has an airport which even when built couldn't cope with the volume of traffic it was expected to handle, has had numerous problems including; corruption on an incredible scale from the land to the building right down to the escalators, fire trucks and scanners, Duty Free concessions involving corruption, criminal activity, and it is widely acknowledged to be under the control of not the Airport Authority, but of three 'mafia' families.

Three wheels on my wagon and I'm still rolling along.

the airport is good. getting good rankings in international comparison.

it is not Changi, yes. If you like Singapore more why don't go work over there.

I'll join in on this. It's fun.

If you are Chinese, why don't you go back there?

i worked in Singapore. Now i am in Bangkok. it is not perfect here. but not that bad that i would complain all the time.

if i dislike a place or dislike a job i would not stay but move.

if you not work here but are just a tourists - move too. China is recommended for having a visit, a lot of nice places there.

life is too short for boring moans. be happy.

I work all over Asia and the US. I am in Bangkok, too. It's not perfect anywhere. I like to complain about all the places I go.

If I dislike a place or dislike a job, I would stay and complain.

Life is too short for boring people who don't complain. Complaining makes me happy.

See how that works? Your view is not the same as my view. And, your thought process is rather juvenile.

Listen to some of you guys

I like the airport trains. The express is fine (and plenty of luggage space) and reasonably priced to take you to the downtown area. The all stops service is also handy (and cheap) if you are staying around Ramkhamhaeng area, or other stations inbetween. Out of peak times it is hardly crowded

If you have a LOT of luggage then a taxi might suit you better, or if you are in a group, you might save a few baht also, but with just one bag or two the train is fine. Unlike the taxi you don't have the same risk of injury or worse in a traffic accident, Due to erratic driving and drivers suffering fatigue or under the influence of something. Nor do you have to sit stuck in traffic for interminable amounts of time.

When I get on/off at the other end in Sydney the 'airport' train is a regular commuter train, in peak hours much like the BTS at peak times. Try getting your luggage and yourself on that. You could take a taxi but that would cost you a bomb a fortune in Sydney.

As a system, not comparing to others, it functions fine and is reasonably priced. Comparing with my hometown it works great

You have your view that some share and others do not. No troubles.

Whatever you said of your view on the subject does not make what others have said here untrue. Whether you like something or not has no impact on the truth of corruption/financial success/how poorly planned and executed the project is.

Some blokes have pitifully low standards, and particularly blokes (many who led cheap and unsubstantial lives in their home countries) who end up old and cheap and over here in Thailand, and there are plenty of Western countries and cities and projects which too are poorly planned and executed and rubbish, so your anecdotal experiences in your hometown are too largely irrelevant.

Whether we like it or not has much to do with things which, by their very nature, are self-serving, selfish. You like it because it serves you well. Problem is that it might not serve many other people as well as it should or be as inexpensive as it should be or as convenient as it should be or as good for the Thai people or Thai's image as it should be. Most of us judge things according only to our selfish ambitions.

Cheers

You only have to look at Hong Kong and Singapore to see examples where eradication of wholesale corruption has had enormous social benefits in raising living standards of the general public. It is no coincidence that both share impeccable public transport systems and airport links. Both airports are superb (Changi almost to a fault) and both easily accessible by rail link from nearly anywhere.

In stark contrast, Thailand has an airport which even when built couldn't cope with the volume of traffic it was expected to handle, has had numerous problems including; corruption on an incredible scale from the land to the building right down to the escalators, fire trucks and scanners, Duty Free concessions involving corruption, criminal activity, and it is widely acknowledged to be under the control of not the Airport Authority, but of three 'mafia' families.

Three wheels on my wagon and I'm still rolling along.

the airport is good. getting good rankings in international comparison.

it is not Changi, yes. If you like Singapore more why don't go work over there.

I'll join in on this. It's fun.

If you are Chinese, why don't you go back there?

There's the "I can determine from your anonymous profile pic where you are right now because you must change your pic depending on where you are" likely drunker brigade.

It was a white elephant from the moment it was conceived. They have no idea how to implement a project of this magnitude. More to the point, it is not their objective to implement a system designed to benefit the commuter, tourist or traveller, but rather to trouser the cash skimmed off from lucrative contracts and back-handers. Any other considerations are secondary.

The public will use it simply because they do not have any other choice.

It is saddled with billions of Baht worth of debt (same as the BTS and the MRT) that can never be paid off in our lifetimes. It will take 40 years of it working at a profit to make a dent in the debt, which won't happen, as corruption will ensure the money is siphoned off before it ever reaches the creditors.

Ahh, yes, the bigger picture indeed. I do though sometimes wonder how much better things would be even without the pervasive mega corruption. Would things here be only marginally better or much better?

Anyway, what can I do about it. I'm going to spend the next hour thinking about what beer I'm going to buy at Emporium, what Thai snacks I'm going to ge to go with it, which young (as in, 23 - 25) thing of two little hotties who work in HR and marketing depts at my firm I'm going to invite over and then .. what work project we're going to work on.

One is rather stuck up (typical Thammasat grad) but who I find very physically attractive. The other is not stuck up, but I often tire of her discussion about unremarkable food I've been eating for years now here, and she is known to gossip in the office about everything, and not sure I want some of the other blokes knowing my business.

How 7-11 let these scabby vendors block their entrances is also a mystery.

Sometimes you have to step over dogs just to get in and in doing so fear getting bitten.

I don't know about you, but I NEVER have to worry about being bitten by dogs asleep outside 7/11... perhaps that dog is a good judge of character.

Yeah, agree that Thai dogs don't really bite. They, like their other countrymen, don't like confrontation.

And, if you get bitten, it'll be sneakily, without warning from behind, and the dogs won't do it if they are alone. They will sneak you in a pack.

You see any one or two Thai dogs, nothing to worry about. Just ignore them. But do keep an eye out behind and around you.

This rail link is absolute rubbish. Escalators always off. Small escalators. Escalators in totally hidden locations. Extraordinarily long walks to get to platform. Absolutely abhorrent signage. Elevators that you can barely fit normal-sized luggage into. Turnstiles that you often see tourists with normal-sized luggages getting stuck between because they are too small.

Huge gaps between train and platform (not good for luggage).

Very narrow trains carriages (not good for luggage).

It's a Thai-only planned and Thai-only run line for sure. That I am certain.

But, common; it's the best they can do, so maybe we should cut them some slack.

Are there actually any updates on this story? Or has it already all gone forgotten?

Probably forgotten and still not one single word from PM Yingluck, the champion of women's rights and women's empowerment in Thailand. Utterly shameful. I suspect she would have a different attitude if it was her daughter. But hey it's only a low life Karen girl so who cares right?

Champion of Upper-class, Thai-Chinese, Well-connected women's rights, to be clear.

I think it's safe to say that most of living here in Thailand will hope for them to lose. Anything to help the country grow up is good. If not destructive war, then perhaps at least a major international defeat on to lose substantial FACE