Gang Warily

English girl raped and murdered in 2008 by fishermen

I was on a ship anchored off Koh Samui in 2008, I think that was the year, when an English girl was raped and murdered by two fishermen, who had swum ashore from their boat, which was sheltering from bad weather, the same as our ship was. They raped her then killed her, swam back to their fishing boat and told all the other people on board. Fortunately the skipper radioed the authorities and the culprits were arrested. They were initially given the death sentence and presumably it was going to be carried out, even though they admitted doing it. It was reported at the time that they were to be made an example of by executing them to warn any other people of the consequences of carrrying out such barbaric crimes. I never knew until I researched after this latest double murder, that their sentences were commuted to life imprisonment. Which as from my knowledge of prison in Thailand, through the media, you'd probably be better getting executed. So I was wondering if the police had thought about the possibility that maybe there were fishing vessels just off the island and that some of the crew could of come ashore and been responsible for this outrage? Just a thought!

You are joking of course! No skipper radioed the authorities. The investigation had to be taken out of the hands of the Samui Police and handed over to a team from Bangkok. Samui police were arresting all and sundry foreigners and Burmese,. The culprits were Thai. They did swim back to their boat and they told other crew what they had done, describing the woman as 'roi' southern Thai abbreviation for 'aroi' - delicious. None of the crew told anyone else about it - until they were confronted by police I suspect in a very forceful way. It simply would not have occurred to them to go to police.

The mother has NEVER STATED to Andrew Drummond that her son was 'incredibly intoxicated'. The evidence is totally to the contrary. The family is not connected to the Australian Embassy. Knowing a friend of a friend who works there is 'no connected'. At any rate the Embassy have said the usual we can do 'sweet fa'. Three punches? Two punches? Actually the story has been consistent. How do you manage to make up so much stuff in so few words? There is no evidence of any fight. There is evidence of an ambush.

The mother wants blood. Blood is different than justice. Justice would be justified. And this is simply not. The mother also stated in a public letter that was published on an Andrew Drummond article admitting that her son was "incredibly intoxicated." The family is also connected to the Australian Embassy, as stated in almost every article surrounding this case. Although it may not be blatantly stated, who WOULDN'T try and use their connections to get what they believe they deserve. I also was never saying that the roids suggestion came from the family, I was replying to a different user as you can see. I do not actually believe the family has been sticking to the facts they were given, as they say it was 3 punches while it actually was only 2. The boys aren't devils. This story is completely one sided, and has been one sided since it began. I have full sympathy towards BOTH parties.

Roids? Really? The two boys could be athletes, or could simply just enjoy living a healthy life by going to the gym from time to time. It is inconsiderate to make assumptions about people who you do not even know. I do not either, but I am trying to make some sense out of these two boys. The boy was drunk and probably does not even remember what happened that night. Everyone has been mentioning the amount of money that the Chang's have, but nothing about the Wang's. It is possible that Raymond Chang is very wealthy, but do not assume the same of Ryan Wang just because he is acquainted with Raymond. None of the articles have stated that Ryan is just as wealthy, and since there is no proof to that you cannot assume that this will breeze by for them.

ilove bangkok11,

If it had been a bar room punch up that had gone a bit over the top, I could understand your desire to remind is that there are always 2 (or more) sides to any story. Possibly even the news guy shoved his microphone into the old man's face with the intention of provoking a response. Who knows?

BUT, these 2 lads gave the Ozzie kid a serious going over. He wears a mask as he awaits another year or more of surgery! And of course we can't see the psychological scars. And the picture of those two guys does suggest some 'roids at work. So, sorry, no sympathy. And fines mean nothing if you have plenty of cash, as has been pointed out. I would love to see a prison sentence, however brief. But I doubt it will happen, even with the support of the NCPO.

PS I am still so impressed with the NCPO. I now tune in each Friday night to see what new stuff they have uncovered or turned their attention to. If you ever want a country lifted up by its bootlaces, these are the guys to do it.

So what evidence do you have to say the 'boy was drunk'?. What evidence do you have to say the Hansel-Bartel's are 'connected' to the Australian Embassy, and if so why such inaction by the Australian Embassy? And what has Wang's wealth or lack of got to do with it. His parents obviously had to pay to send him to Shanghai American School, but in any case Chang senior is representing both his son and Wang. Well except for one occasion where it is alleged he offered 5 mill on the proviso that JHB withdraw the case against his son - leaving Wang to face it all. The mother has refused all 'conditional' financial offers. She merely wants to see justice done in a system where it can be perverted. Is that so very odd? The roids suggestion does not come from the Aussie family btw - who stick rigidly to the evidence they have been given. This story is only one-sided in respect of the Aussie family doing nothing illegal to pervert the system.

Roids? Really? The two boys could be athletes, or could simply just enjoy living a healthy life by going to the gym from time to time. It is inconsiderate to make assumptions about people who you do not even know. I do not either, but I am trying to make some sense out of these two boys. The boy was drunk and probably does not even remember what happened that night. Everyone has been mentioning the amount of money that the Chang's have, but nothing about the Wang's. It is possible that Raymond Chang is very wealthy, but do not assume the same of Ryan Wang just because he is acquainted with Raymond. None of the articles have stated that Ryan is just as wealthy, and since there is no proof to that you cannot assume that this will breeze by for them.

ilove bangkok11,

If it had been a bar room punch up that had gone a bit over the top, I could understand your desire to remind is that there are always 2 (or more) sides to any story. Possibly even the news guy shoved his microphone into the old man's face with the intention of provoking a response. Who knows?

BUT, these 2 lads gave the Ozzie kid a serious going over. He wears a mask as he awaits another year or more of surgery! And of course we can't see the psychological scars. And the picture of those two guys does suggest some 'roids at work. So, sorry, no sympathy. And fines mean nothing if you have plenty of cash, as has been pointed out. I would love to see a prison sentence, however brief. But I doubt it will happen, even with the support of the NCPO.

PS I am still so impressed with the NCPO. I now tune in each Friday night to see what new stuff they have uncovered or turned their attention to. If you ever want a country lifted up by its bootlaces, these are the guys to do it.

So what evidence do you have to say the 'boy was drunk'?. What evidence do you have to say the Hansel-Bartel's are 'connected' to the Australian Embassy, and if so why such inaction by the Australian Embassy? And what has Wang's wealth or lack of got to do with it. His parents obviously had to pay to send him to Shanghai American School, but in any case Chang senior is representing both his son and Wang. Well except for one occasion where it is alleged he offered 5 mill on the proviso that JHB withdraw the case against his son - leaving Wang to face it all. The mother has refused all 'conditional' financial offers. She merely wants to see justice done in a system where it can be perverted. Is that so very odd? The roids suggestion does not come from the Aussie family btw - who stick rigidly to the evidence they have been given. This story is only one-sided in respect of the Aussie family doing nothing illegal to pervert the system.

This case has two sides to the story. Although I am not connected to either of the sides of this case and am simply a curious reader like many of you, I do believe that people should consider how Ryan Wang and Raymond Chang feel. If it were myself, I would feel remorse but would not think that jail is the answer. Remember that this occurred at a night club where these teens were consuming alcohol. This is simply a drunken club fight against teenagers who do not know better. Ryan and Raymond are not innocent in this situation, but Jack is not either. The two boys from China would not randomly punch a boy, do you not think that Jack would have provoked them in some way?

I just want to remind the people on this forum, as well as others reading, that this is simply one side of the story. I am fully aware that the Australian teen must undergo serious surgery and I am completely sympathetic, however it does not give people the right to say that Raymond Chang is a bad person. If you were a father of a teen that was being charged, it would clearly be a stressful time for him and his family. What he said in the video is justified; what does give the news caster a right to film him and his son?

Jack's family is also very connected in Thailand and Australia, giving them a large advantage in this case. In my opinion, this would not even be this large of a deal if the family was not connected. I believe that the two Chinese boys should pay the medical bill since they caused the harm, however attempting to put them in jail is a bit dramatic.

I am sorry if this post makes people feel uncomfortable since the previous posts seem to all be pro-Jack. I just want to bring somewhat of a counter opinion to this case to remind people that every story has another side.

Why should this post make any body feel uncomfortable. You are merely spouting off assuming without any wherewithal to back it up that Jack provoked these two Chinese Americans. What right does the newscaster? (I assume you men cameraman) have to film a news event? Jack/s family connected? Where are you getting all this rubbish from? Sounds like you are just having a lonely day.

This Shanghai American School Alumni should shut the **** up.

Whole article goes on about preserving the reputation of some school, which we never asked and don't care about. And who are you to speak? Mind your own business.

After reading the article, I have more hatred on this alumni and their school than if I never read it. Thanks for bringing it up.

It really shows the character of these kids. It's all about face, and they will do anything to keep it. A sincere apology and care about the victim would have been enough, and it shows the public how good hearted this alumni is. BUT NO, it's so obvious, "ohhhhh I come from a prestigious rich school, I just want to let you know, we are not all like that, I just need to maintain my school's good reputation, so people will think highly of me" SPOILED BRAT! think about others!!

Sorry, but I think that you are being a bit harsh on the guy that wrote the apology.

Maybe, just maybe, that like us he feels that what happened was wrong. I could be mistaken, but I would give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

A we can see from some of the later posts, there is a lot of angst about 'rich kids/spoilt brats' etc. But - not everyone is the same.

If I understand the latest situation, the NCPO has had the charges against Jack dropped, the suspects have had their passports taken and their lawyer has had his wrist slapped for being a naughty boy. Surely this is positive stuff.

The NCPO has not had the charged dropped. He has been charged with (1) a misdemeanor and (2) assault. There is no medical evidence of any assault.

The fine for a misdemeanor is usually 500 baht. assault not causing injury maybe 1-2000. The cost for the Samui policeman to fly to Bangkok and back 10,000 min. Now Mrs Hansen has to raise cash for a full trial! - Thai justice.

"Fundraising is continuing to help pay for legal costs and Mr Pickles’ care." Things must  be different here. I thought lawyers for prosecution are for paid by the state. Good for fundraising for care, but legal costs? Can someone explain this part please?

The family can prosecute alongside the police. This often helps justice along. i have never heard of the High Court in Bangkok though and if it has been transferred to Bangkok Criminal Court there has to be a good reason.

Change some on arrival at the airport for immediate needs. Change the rest in HH as needed. Don't walk around with wads of cash or leave it in your room/apt/house.

Expect some rain.

For heaven's sake be very ware of changing cash in Hua Hin. And on no account try to change any UK fifty pound notes there - there has been a scam running where they 'discover' a fake note (they have one or two in stock) and they will call Tourist police by pre-arrangement - then on to the city police - Cost one couple near on a million baht. As a rule its best never to deal in foreign currency notes in Thailand - I have even been given forged US dollars by a Thai bank!

Kipper, Arbroath smokies, Loch Fyne prawns (langoustines) Angus beef, any cold water fish, grapefruit, fresh blackberries, cock-a-leekie!

Btw, 'Andrea Drummond'???

Was Andrew going by an alias back then?

Any thing ANDREA DRUMMOND prints is subject to suspicion. Remember the Downtown Hotel 4 deaths and he had it up in the area of 5 plus a couple more in another hotel down south years before.

Four deaths in the Downtown Inn one of which which would not have been revealed had not Drummond found a witness to them carrying the bodies out. The deaths down south were two on Phi Phi island. They were not connected - but were similarly unexplained.

More like 7..

sounds about right

Btw, 'Andrea Drummond'???

Was Andrew going by an alias back then?

Any thing ANDREA DRUMMOND prints is subject to suspicion. Remember the Downtown Hotel 4 deaths and he had it up in the area of 5 plus a couple more in another hotel down south years before.

Four deaths in the Downtown Inn one of which which would not have been revealed had not Drummond found a witness to them carrying the bodies out. The deaths down south were two on Phi Phi island. They were not connected - but were similarly unexplained.

Btw, 'Andrea Drummond'???

Was Andrew going by an alias back then?

Any thing ANDREA DRUMMOND prints is subject to suspicion. Remember the Downtown Hotel 4 deaths and he had it up in the area of 5 plus a couple more in another hotel down south years before.

No.

Wow! Bangkok needs more shopping areas for the Central Group and CP Group to rake in a higher percentage of Thailand's money stream.

Pity they can't run a railway

Think about it though. A man's weenie is the most important thing to him. It is how he exerts his power (for some), and it is what gives him pleasure and as well, literally, the drive for living. For a woman to cut off a man's hot dog is in a sense worse than killing him. If he has been abusing the wife, sleeping around, or acting macho and stupid, then this is the ultimate punishment, and in a sense it solves all the woman's problems.

On the other hand Andrew Drummond's view on this is that is a load of old b-$-l-l-$cks and you've all been had.

Further information today from the Ayling family; as Paul died in the UK as a result of the injuries sustained in the attack in Thailand, a murder incident room has been opened by Hertfordshire police. There will also be a coroner's inquest held in the UK and his body cannot be released for a funeral until this reaches a verdict. It is unknown how long this may take, but it is likely that the verdict may have to wait for the UK police's investigations - apparently if death occurs in the UK caused by an incident abroad, the UK police have the power to investigate in the country where the incident occurred. In this case that power is being exercised and contact is being made via the British Embassy to the Thai police, as well as the raising of the matter with the Thai Prime Minister's office. One would assume that the British police will request copies of all investigations made and evidence retrieved so far by the Thai police. The reward on offer from the family for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the culprits still stands and amounts to 200,000 baht.

I am sorry you are mistaken there. UK Police have no power to investigate in Thailand. This is solely a matter for the Royal Thai Police. The RTP can invite British police to come along as advisors if they so choose but Brit police have of course no powers of arrest. The story was on the Drummond site yesterday.

Pilot killed in Plane Crash at Pattaya Port during Memorial service

Pattaya: On Saturday late afternoon, Police were notifed of a small microlight aircraft having collided with the pier of a new bridge at Bali Hai during a memorial service, as its occupants scattered the ashes of a friend over the bay

Pattaya police and emergency services raced to the scene, they found local construction workers attempting to rescue two foreigners from the oil stained waters. 57 year old British man, Thomas David Grieve, said to have been the pilot, was reported to have suffered from broken ribs and a punctured lung and his 31 year old passenger, Scotsman Eric Esser a broken arm, as they were rushed to Pattaya Memorial hospital for emergency treatment, The Pilot died later in hospital.

Witenesses stated that the yellow micro lite aircraft had been circling the new construction site several times before, on its third approach, the engine seemed to cut out. The plane itself sunk, but the two men were assisted to the shoreline. They had beenin the process of scattering ashes over the bay as numerous small boats watched in respect of the occasion.

The remains of the microlite were recovered and brought to the shore as police took care to keep the public at a distance, to protect the 4 stroke 100 HP plane for forensic experts to establish the cause of the accident and the British Embassy has been informed.

Full story:http://www.pattaya10...morial-service/

--Pattaya 103 FM 2012-11-18

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Interview with survivor on the drummond site

I couldn't see any of the offending pics. I didn't look too long, these set shot pictures kind of bore me

http://www.maxim.com/

http://www.facebook....=ts&fref=ts

Just looked at the Baan Muang paper on line and it has the pics.

That would make sense. Lets be shocked . Bit of a non story. Few people would have noticed.

Looks like the Krabi police have released pictures of the rapist and victim. Public relations trumps police investigations any time in the Magic Kingdom. While this may work in Thailand, the audience is in europe and the world and they might find this new video freakingly abhorently ugly.

Major faceloss for the Boys in Brown

I agree. They have identifed the victim twice and from viewing the still alone it looks like they are now giving the impression she was up for it. Its very much tit for tat. This one will not go viral. They should have sung it perhaps. (No thats a joke. no comments please)

Amras there seem to be a few basic things you do not understand, but first the fact that the guy handed himself in and confessed was information given to the father I understand through the Netherlands Embassy or Andrew Drummond and came from police in Krabi who then were confident of a successful prosecution..

1. Comparing rape statistics between Thailand and the US is absurd. Very few people report rape to police in Thailand and go thru the courts. Its a matter settled locally.

2. Its not a matter of Thais accepting their lot. They have to. They have no choice the way the system works - unless they are influencial.

3. Very little here is transparent except some ministerial statements.

4. Thailand has the ability to 'express' court proceedings and did so in the case of the rape and murder of Katherine Horton on Koh Samui.

5. The Thai government has been promising for years to speed up its court system so justice delayed is not justice denied. It has failed to do so. At the moment if you are charged with a crime and go to trial - that trial could last several years if you plead not guilty - the record is I believe 22 years in a trial during which several lawyers, witnesses and defendants died before its conclusion.

The info about the tour guide confessing comes from the andrew drummond site. In the light of the tour guide pleading not guilty that confession may now be irrelevant and confessions made in police stations should be treated with caution. The latest story is now updated with the following.

UPDATE: The young woman's father said from Amsterdam tonight that in the light of a 'hallucinatory' statement made at Ministry level in Thailand he was now seeking advice from his own government which has been monitoring the case. He had been invited to take part in a major programme in Holland early next week and was now considering it. While his own government had not taken action, he said, he had been informed that the Swedish government was issuing a travel warning in relation to Krabi.

And finally Nisa is correct on one point. The father has not complained about police. He has complained about the justice system. And his daughter has already given evidence in court, as did Carly Reisig about the murder of Leo Del Pinto in Pai, Mae Hong Son Province.

Unfortunately unless it is in a report somewhere, it's considered hearsay. Second hand information get's twisted, not saying it has, but it can be. Is there any report anywhere that states he confessed to it originally? I haven't seen it (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would just like to read it). If I'm missing information all well and good. I'm not defending the actions at all, please don't think I am.

1. And I would of course count that most low income and regional occurrences don't get included (and occurs to Thais). My point was simply that in that figure it would include high profile (ie Bangkok) and tourist cases. My point was that this horrible thing happens everywhere and even in a civilized western country like the US it isn't/can't be stopped and happens extremely frequently. Thailand's still behind in many ways, we all know that, yet no one's up in arms about the fact the US has such a bad record of rape as well. If they can't fix it, or stop such a prevalence of it, how can anyone expect the "behind/backward" authorities in Thailand to be able to? That's the reality. Where's the magical solution. He hasn't got off it yet, he hasn't escaped trial or punishment. He only received bail. Jumping to conclusions (no matter what has happened in the past) is premature in this particular case. Is it not?

2. Thai's don't have to accept it, it's just that they do. I never said change would be easy, but it's happened with many countries before, it just needs more people to give a dam_n to get critical mass where it makes an impact.

3. I'd disagree. Corruption is blatant and obvious in all facets of Thai society. That's what I mean by transparent. Everyone know's what goes on and how it works. The same stuff happens elsewhere, however it is covered up much better that most people don't even see it, unless you dig.

4. Fair enough, however murder is a different situation to rape. Both bad, just clearly one is a completely different and worse matter than the other.

5. Yep and our politicians promise many things as well. What are the reasons for the long delays? Too many cases, inefficient court procedures. It's a huge system to fix and we all know how things are that need complete overhauls here. Change is slow.

As to the alleged confession. There is no 'evidence' in the strictest sense of the word of that. One journalist with an unamed source as 'police said'. If that is all there is to go on, I would say it is worth very little in any court of law. If it is in fact documented but has not been released, it's a different matter.

People do and are allowed to change their pleas in all democratic societies prior to appearing before a judge though.

I agree that he probably is guilty, but he has not been released or acquitted of any charges. The charges are still outstanding and it's been 6 weeks since he appeared in court. It isn't that long ago and it could still happen sooner than anyone thinks for his trial date to come up.

Maybe we should wait until something further happens before slamming down on this specific case as another failed case of the Thai justice system.?

Fine - but I have not described this case as 'another failed case of the Thai justice system'. Nor have I given any weight to the guide's confession.Further the woman in question was interview by a woman police ofiicer and this case was indeed expressed or fast tracked as a court session was arranged so she could give evidence before returning home.

The argument that horrible things happen elsewhere is neither here not there.But it would be fairer if you compared statistics with Holland and the culture the woman comes from!

If the police as they say firmly objected to bail - then the fault is with the Thai justice system. To criticise a judge in Thailand is on a par with criticising the main institution. The penalties are severe.

The fact is that unless these cases are raised to a high profile level they can go very very badly wrong.

General comments about Thailand and or western values in this context are all piffle. Female victims are as a rule disadvanted in Thailand hence the low rape reports. There are good organisations our there fighting for women's rights, victim's rights etc.

I would be much more alarmed about Thaksin, the police chief down in Krabi who says 'All these rapes are giving my men a headache'.

It's easy to get all upset by a comment like "this case cannot be considered rape", and assume that it's because Thai's don't believe in rape.. etc etc.

Well, lets look at it for a western perspective. A few years ago, if this sort of thing happened in the west it WOULD NOT be called rape, ii would be labeled "DATE RAPE"... sounds the same, but adding the word DATE in front of the word RAPE changes the meaning quite substantially, not only in name but in many cases in the form of punishment IF a perpetrator was found guilty.

I AM NOT SAYING that she was not raped, and I'm certainly NOT suggesting for one moment that the crime was any less heinous just because she had dinner with him and possible went back to his place, or invited him to hers..

What I AM SAYING is that when you translate a word into Thai you have to accept that meanings can differ, in the same way that meanings differed in the west 30 years ago to some extent. If you accept that in the west (in some countries) we have a DIFFERENT expression that we call "Date Rape", then it's understandable that when you translate just the word RAPE that a Thai can say "this case cannot be considered rape". Defense lawyers in the west SAY THE SAME THING under circumstances where both parties had been drinking and they go into a bedroom environment of their own free will. I AM NOT SAYING that what happened is not rape, I just don't know what happened, and neither does anyone except the man and woman in the room at the time.

Also, for the record. The suggestion that bail was inappropriate is a difficult call. Bail is often given in the west to people accused of similar offences under similar circumstances.. remember he's a suspect and an alleged rapist that has not been given the opportunity yet to defend himself in a court of law. He may be an evil man, I just don't know and neither I suggest do you.

Useless drivel from village idiot. I AM NOT SAYING YOUR A VILLAGE IDIOT. I am just saying I'm not saying.

I agree. This guy is totally off the wall. Where does the date come into it? Where does the bedroom come into it. The woman accepted a lift from a friendly Thai back to her accommodation. She never got there. She demanded to get off the bike when she realised he was going in the wrong direction. he beat her and dragged her off the road side. Some date. Some bedroom.

Finally its a Minister of Tourism speaking. The Ministry has deep problems if he cannot understand English - the major language of tourism,

Again I ask, as it seems people NEGLECT THIS SINGLE FACT.

WHERE does it say he has been found not guilty or acquitted of any charges against him? I have not seen, or read that anywhere.

As someone above me posted...the initial injuries were claimed as a motorbike accident...why wouldn't she have claimed someone just assaulted her.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. But none of us know the full story, only the small fragments in the media reports.

Or is everyone just outraged that a foreigner was attacked and that's it, no trial, no court, guilty.

According to the initial report, he did not plead guilty, rather he stated it was consensual and not rape.

See how facts get twisted.....................................

How about let the system do what it's supposed to do.......which seems like it was being done anyway.

The whole minister and tourism blocking thing, is a separate issue.

No we don't know all the facts do we? But I don't know of many people who would admit to a rape if they didn't do it and the perpetrator is said to admitted his rape, giving his excuses and then later changed his mind and said it was consentual. The mindset in this place is exposed wonderfully by the spokeman saying it can't be considered rape because she had dinner with the guy. It is beyond pathetic it is sickening.

The fact that people can defend what has been said is equally sickening. Yes everyone should be innocent until proven guilty (doesn't seem to be that way in dafamation cases for some reason maybe because it suits the ruling elite that way and makes it a more effective weapon for them but I move off point). If someone admits guilt then the balance turns against him. Yes there are cases where confessions are coerced but admission and later retracting everything as the scent you might get off because a foreigner is involved happens too many times here for that argument to hold much weight either - and why coerce a person to admit rape and hurt your country. I dont believe coercions are that widespread! And besides Thais are just not like that and hurting their country is the last thing they want to do because of the loss of face to themselves that would occur socially in the process. The only time that is acceptable is in the case where you stand to gain mightily financially - then you can commit treason by stealing money from the nations coffers through corruption and not lose a wink of sleep at the thought that you might be hurting the precious country. Give me a break Thais are all about loss of face; and their selfishness is astounding.

Time for so many changes here. The justice system needs to be rid of corruption and speeded up - a lot! Too much adjourn this adjourn that for the slightest reason. In cases involving foreigners there needs to be a special procedure because the victim cannot be expected to return to Thailand for every hearing at shoulder the travel costs involved in that. It is not acceptable to just let everyone off just because the person is not here anymore because anarchy will eventually result where people can assault and injure or murder tourists and just get away with it because the victim is either dead or cannot afford 20 return flights to Thailand while the courts pick their noses.

I don't have all the answers but there has to be a better way and the increasing criminality in this wonderful country has to be arrested before it gets out of control - it very nearly is in Phuket already - seems it's spreading.

No we don't know all the facts. I still haven't seen the original source that says he admitted to the rape. Could you provide it? (I honestly want to see it, not being an arse). The spokesman is a douche bag, in any nationality or country (remember there are people in the west that think exactly the same as him as well, ie provocative dressing invites rape etc). These people are everywhere, it's not a Thai thing.

You also seems to forget one major issue...regardless of our ideals, or whether or not we think Thailand needs to improve, in what ever regard........this is not OUR country.

If the Thai's want to accept this as the universal being for growing up in Thailand (corrupt police (not all), corruption in the government, an average court and judicial system), that is honestly their prerogative. Because the truth is, most of us are not citizens so don't inherit the rights that come along with citizenship, no matter how backwards we believe many things are in Thailand.

Can you imagine say the Chinese moving to Australia or the US and saying, wow you guys have to much freedom of expression, that needs to be changed now! Regardless of who we think is right or wrong it is up to the people of that nation to effect change. Not the visitors to it. After all, we have a choice to come here and accept all risks associated with it. Want to be 'safe', stay home where you know your rights. (I'm being the devils advocate here, as people seem to be emotionally charged to think only one sided).

There are many cases of implied guilt, confessions or coercion's, likely here and definitely back home in the west. It happens for many reasons. Not saying this is the case here, but it does happen.

I don't believe any country has an express judicial proceedings for crimes against visitors or tourists. I haven't seen it as most people can be on trial with the witness in absentia, if circumstances are required. Don't forget it is a criminal act, not civil. So they are prosecuted with the prosecution being the state (not the victim).

Not that it justifies it, but this also happens around the world, not just in Thailand, like so many posters here give the impression. It is not an idealistic west, vs the barbaric Thailand. There were 85,000 recorded cases on rape in 2010 in the US, at 29 per 100,000 people (Thailand had 4500 with a ratio of 7 per 100,000), according to the UN. Obviously these stats are hard to relate to actual figures, but it gives an indication that as a westerner you are 4 times more likely to be rapped in the US than in Thailand (most non reported rapes in Thailand would be low income, regional areas and against Thai's etc etc).

My point is, too many people jump on the Thailand is evil bandwagon and any chance they can get, yet forget all this stuff happens back home, but goes un-reported in the media, or gets very little coverage. Or we selectively forget that this stuff also happens back home, because many come here with a superiority complex about how they can fix Thailand and how much better there 'enlightened' way of thinking is.

Everything is Thailand is just so transparent, to see the stuff that goes on in the west, you need to dig below the surface. Most people don't so think it's all peachy. That just isn't the case.

Amras there seem to be a few basic things you do not understand, but first the fact that the guy handed himself in and confessed was information given to the father I understand through the Netherlands Embassy or Andrew Drummond and came from police in Krabi who then were confident of a successful prosecution..

1. Comparing rape statistics between Thailand and the US is absurd. Very few people report rape to police in Thailand and go thru the courts. Its a matter settled locally.

2. Its not a matter of Thais accepting their lot. They have to. They have no choice the way the system works - unless they are influencial.

3. Very little here is transparent except some ministerial statements.

4. Thailand has the ability to 'express' court proceedings and did so in the case of the rape and murder of Katherine Horton on Koh Samui.

5. The Thai government has been promising for years to speed up its court system so justice delayed is not justice denied. It has failed to do so. At the moment if you are charged with a crime and go to trial - that trial could last several years if you plead not guilty - the record is I believe 22 years in a trial during which several lawyers, witnesses and defendants died before its conclusion.

The info about the tour guide confessing comes from the andrew drummond site. In the light of the tour guide pleading not guilty that confession may now be irrelevant and confessions made in police stations should be treated with caution. The latest story is now updated with the following.

UPDATE: The young woman's father said from Amsterdam tonight that in the light of a 'hallucinatory' statement made at Ministry level in Thailand he was now seeking advice from his own government which has been monitoring the case. He had been invited to take part in a major programme in Holland early next week and was now considering it. While his own government had not taken action, he said, he had been informed that the Swedish government was issuing a travel warning in relation to Krabi.

And finally Nisa is correct on one point. The father has not complained about police. He has complained about the justice system. And his daughter has already given evidence in court, as did Carly Reisig about the murder of Leo Del Pinto in Pai, Mae Hong Son Province.

The guy is a musician and is expressing his torment in a song how can you ven question the lyric

" Would You Feel The Pain that You Put Inside my child "

that is a father in pain and the only thing he can do is express his feelings in song.

I am with all the fathers here that say they would be serving time and I for one would visit that father and ensure his stay was a comfortable as possible,

Respect to this father.

DK

After the police reaction and the comments by the Minister of Tourism yesterday Andrew Drummond who is speaking to the father predicts another song coming on on his website today

Facebook has a page already https://www.facebook...vilManFromKrabi

and the father has given an interview today on the website of he who cannot be named

Should be shut. Waste of taxpayers money. There's a consulate in Bangkok, so no need for another one so close.

I think the problem is not lack of cash. I am informed income from services topped 350,000 baht a month two consuls ago. It can hardly have gone down - unless incompetence was involved. Assuming you pay the Hon Con or local staff consular officer 100,000 baht a month and deputy 50,000, plus rent 20,000 / utilities - max it means that consulate was more than breaking even quite some time ago.

The real reasons may be:(a) Consular officials do not want to leave Bangkok and go to Pattaya - let the riff raff come to us (2) its a security risk - too much leakage of info (3) nobody ever thought it out and how much extra work it might create and 'we have set a dangerous precedent' (4) having the consulate staffed by a Brit of Thai extraction while politically correct had failed in its application (5) The old system where one did not actually pay the Hon Con more than 8000 baht a month for working like a navvy is tried and tested.

I live on the outskirts of Bangkok. I have to time my trip carefully. Too early and I will spend 2-3 hours in a traffic jam. Too late and i will not make the 11 am closing time. This is because they apply rigid rules - applications am - pick ups in the afternoon.

Much better if they just opened between 3 and 5 pm and took the rest of the short day off. That way Brits and consular officials will have hopefully recovered from their collective hang-overs and can get their application in before heading to the bar - and then the çustomers'can pick 'em up the following day before heading to the bar again. For Pattaya Brits though it will require two hotel night stays. But bulk discounts could be arranged with the Nana Hotel. Sold by the Pattaya Hon Con.

Maybe the Embassy could do three problems for the price of two. Five problems - win a free night at the Nana.

It is a business they are running. There are reasons for those rigid rules preventing overservicing.

Actually if Foreign Secretary William Hague stayed at home - the cost of his latest trip - would probably pay for an office in Phuket too