Gang Warily

Gosh, you're up early Andrew. Presumably, the children are keeping you honest!

Coldest night of the year coming up I see in Caledonia but if you have any sense you should be somewhat south of the Watford Gap. The weather here is perfect with Thailand's own version of the "cold" still prevailing.

Cigarette prices are a shocker, ain't they?

Yes. Weather here good. Cigarettes cheap, But am giving them up - and will be south of Watford let alone the Gap

Drummond can't write to save himself - that was clearly evident from his early blog efforts. His newspaper reputation was saved by his desk editors and sub editors, poor bustards, who pulled his raw, rough and rambling copy together and turned it into readable prose. On his blog, he did not have that luxury until recent times. To parody Drummond's style of writing, you could say that if you gave him a gun, the safest place to be around him would be right in front. He sprays words every which way and with no sense of direction or coherence. His saving grace was his doggedness and fearless approach. That reputation was such that people felt compelled to go to him with information - which he then assessed and followed up. Considering where that information often lead him, he was indeed a brave man. I wonder just how many people have been saved from the scammers - the sorry-assed fake lawyers, developers, boiler room filth - because of his efforts? How many more will not have such luck now that he is gone?

"His newspaper reputation was saved by his desk editors and sub editors, poor bustards, who pulled his raw, rough and rambling copy together and turned it into readable prose. " Since you know this, you then must know the names of the editors, etc. the publications involved, etc. So please supply them ere we think you're spewing rubbish.

You can't be serious! Apart from the fact that you failed to detect my little humourous dig at Andrew, who IS a sub editor's nightmare (you can trust me on that), and that you have chosen to ignore my otherwise praiseworthy words, do you really think there are that many sub editors who are known to the public? The publications are already noted on his website. Lighten up, my selective friend.

All reporters were sub editors' nightmares Watawitawat. But that's what they are paid for. Reporters blame sub editors for changing the accuracy of the stories.Its not so much that I cannot spell. I can. Sometimes I cannot see the errors. Comes from the old days of writing at speed and throwing the copy page by page up a shute. The subs wanted the copy quick rather than perfect.

(When I first wrote this i wrote shoot but i would have been detected instantly) Most stuff gets corrected. To the person who wrote I never correct errors the answer is I always correct errors on request if that is what they are.

He mightn't be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would dearly love to know how Tim Ward has maintained a current visa for so many years while others have been shown the door. As for opinions, he's never short in that department - I could only shake my head when one of my Thai associates told me her brother thinks he's 'cool' after his tirade at the Pattaya cop shop.

Off-topic, but what happened with the Tim Ward case? I thought I'd seen a headline about it being settled, but I didn't look at the time and now can't find anything.

I'm just being nosey, no invested reasons.

Think he got a phone call that straightened him out, as he suddenly became very contrite

and said it was all a big mistake...

I did?

Slowly but surely we are moving towards the general acceptance of the guilt of the two Burmese as a certainty.

So over 90% of our expatriate community will have to decide a public apology or be silent forever.

I await the moment with relish.

But finally, I'll bet they will not do neither the one nor the other...

Yes I guess you will have to wait Hisseho Especially while the Burmese are debriefed, while a witness or third party is in affect in custody - and while the 'third man remains undetected!m and while despite the press conference today the world is not convinced. How could that be?

Very well expressed, NCFC..........excellent post.

Sorry I dont agree on with one word ,,,,,, Most I think is concocted bull.....The only way,,, And I mean the Key is Sean Sean do this for your consceince Get of your ass and come clean, It will only get worse for you.

So If you want a boot in the backside I for one think you did it,and I am sure a lot of other people do as well. So now prove me ( us ) wrong.

I agree with NCFC and I don't agree with green job about Sean. If he was guilty of something serious, he wouldn't have voluntarily put himself in the middle of the whirlwind. He would have laid as low as possible. He may not be the kind of guy you'd want babysitting your daughters, but that's beside the point. It's not a popularity contest. It's about arresting, trying, convicting and punishing the rapists/killers. I do hope he gives testimony, even if it's in absentia.

If Thai officials were serious about apprehending the culprits (which doesn't appear clear they are, at this time) then they would send some officials to do a video-taped interview with Sean. If he's spooked by any Thais searching for him, it's completely understandable. Perhaps they could set up an interview at the British embassy somewhere. At the least, he should send a sworn affidavit to officials. In the US, they call something like that; "friend of the court." If so, he should also send a copy to the press corps, because Thai officials might act like they never received it - because it won't likely be pleasing for island VIPs.

Sean McAnna has already spoken to Embassy officials. If the Thais want to proceed against him (They could have stopped him leaving btw) then British police would have to do the interview - not Thai police. The British police should also, if they have not done so, request the DNA results on the suspected killers. It appears the independent forensic analysts are not being told the names of the people they are DNA testing. That puts the power into the hands of the local police.

One thing concerns me about this case.

How come the Scottish guy Sean and the other friends of the deceased, who have already left the island, either not come out and made public announcements about what happened with the alleged confrontations in the bar. Why have none of the investigative journalists who were originally involved on the island, not sought these people out to get their side of the story?

Its as though they have been warned off by the British Embassy not to stick the fly in the ointment11

Surely somebody who was with the deceased before their untimely deaths, would have valuable info?

Why no newspaper interviews? Why has it all gone quiet from these journalists who were there and for sure know what the majority of people on this board suspect to be true.

Yet day after day more ridiculous and sublime statements are coming from the Police which are completely unchallenged.

The Scottish guy has made a statement. The British Embassy as a matter of course tells all relatives of victims etc not to talk to the press. Friends of Hannah and David have made statements which have been passed on to police in Thailand. I understand it has not been 'valuable info'. The British Embassy has not warned off journalists. That would require them actually talking to journalists.

Newsdesks have considered sending journalists to visit McAnna in Milan. They probably see it as bad investment. If he has anything to do with the murder, which is unlikely he can be found soon enough. 'Untimely deaths' is a bit weak. Hannah was hacked to death with a garden hoe. I have rarely seen such crazed brutality or what the killer(s) did to her body afterwards. There is no conspiracy of silence among journalists ( which in any case would be a contradiction in terms). There is of course the usual: 'Its more than my life's worth' cry among the foreigners on the island. Plus ca change.

After reading various news articles and comments I have come to reconize that many of the foreigners here on TV that make comments are doing so without seeing another side of the news reports and comments that are written in Thai. I'm not really sure why that is but the Thai folks seem to know about things days before the foreigner. Example: I have read many times about the CCTV picture that captured the Thai running and only wearing shorts. One story I read said that this Thai man was wearing David's (the victim's) shorts. And that this Thai person must have mistakenly put on the victim's shorts and left his shorts there on the beach. Then written in Thai, the news said that this Thai guy's name in Mon, and the reason that he is running is because since the murders occurred around his area he was made aware of it by the police. He apparently quickly hurried to put only his shorts on and ran to the crime scene to see what happened.

Another example: Sean, the guy that quickly attempted to get off the island and fly back to his country because he felt threatened.

His story seemed very solid, even taking photos. Most foreigners that read about Sean believed him and then began focusing on the two Thai guys (Mon and the other guy which is a policeman).

Written and reported in Thai provided so much more and different information about Sean. The story about the two Thai men were much different than what Sean had portrayed. The Thai news suggests that they have witnesses that not only saw Sean with Blood all over him the night of the murder but they actually helps him clean-up himself. When questioned by locals that helped Sean, he said that he had been in a motorbike accident. Another story suggested that he told someone that he was in a fight with someone.

There has been a lot of focus on Sean. Based on what has been reported in Thai, there are many suggesting that Sean was involved in this gruesome murder.

There is much more that was written in Thai. My only point is that if many of the TV members were aware of many of the stories that have been written in Thai, I think that many of the comments, opinions and anger would be directly somewhat differently.

The only thing that I can suggest is that most should try to refrain from making comments where they are so sure of what took place. There has been so much about the headsman and these Thai guys. So many have gone way out there on a limb stating that they are so corrupt and that they are the guilty ones.

I think very soon within the next couple days or so, more information that was written in Thai will start to be filtered in a way that will be better written and understood by the TV community.

For those that believe that the two or three Thai guys working at AC's bar/club carried out the murder, and are totally guilty, and that it will all be covered up by the authorities, will have a hard pill to swallow when later they catch-up on the news that most all Thai's know about days in advance. Just understand that when you hear what evidence they have, know that it was already reported in Thai before you becomes aware of it.

Also don't be surprised if the focus of attention turns to Sean. There is still much to be said because many fingers point to him.

Having monitored the Thai newspapers I can confirm they are 99 per cent garbage on this. You really should know better.

Where is Sean now?

I'm very very surprised that he was allowed to go free so quickly. Not casting any aspersions here, but for the sake of the victims and solving this crime, he should surely have to go undergo DNA testing too?

Murder cases are always complex, it's never going to be a cut and dried scenario - this is not manslaughter, this is a complex situation with multiple factors, and there has to be at least 2 people involved, due to the rape factor and the magnitude of the injuries involved, which ultimately culminated in a gruesome murder.

We are inching closer, but the police on all sides need to keep the pressure up.

I am sure that if Sean is in the UK, he will be questioned by the forces there and will probably have to undergo DNA testing.

"I am sure that if Sean is in the UK, he will be questioned by the forces there and will probably have to undergo DNA testing."

Under want pretense and UK law?

According to a report yest he had already been dna tested

Chiang Mai is 'THE' place to live or vacation. Good nightlife, few crimes, cheap housing, many tourist attractions, good hospitals (Bangkok General and RAM to name 2 of them), Labor extremely cheap (2 hours at my house to fix a water leak - $3), cooler weather, mountains but no ocean, large lake, etc.

And only the occasional rape and murder of backpacker which cannot be solved - not forgetting mysterious hotel deaths - but yes its cheaper

With these increasing rewards it will be worth for a wittness to wait a while ...

Not long it seems. Arrest reported this morning of son of well connected island family - after friend of Miller resident foreigner reported on FB his life was in danger and named who he said was killer. Not confirmed by police.

Where was this arrest reported? I haven't seen anything about this except for that FB post stating he ( a foreigner) was in danger.

Running on Channel 3 but only 'helping with enquiries' reported to be local on ya ba - not well connected

With these increasing rewards it will be worth for a wittness to wait a while ...

Not long it seems. Arrest reported this morning of son of well connected island family - after friend of Miller resident foreigner reported on FB his life was in danger and named who he said was killer. Not confirmed by police.

English girl raped and murdered in 2008 by fishermen

I was on a ship anchored off Koh Samui in 2008, I think that was the year, when an English girl was raped and murdered by two fishermen, who had swum ashore from their boat, which was sheltering from bad weather, the same as our ship was. They raped her then killed her, swam back to their fishing boat and told all the other people on board. Fortunately the skipper radioed the authorities and the culprits were arrested. They were initially given the death sentence and presumably it was going to be carried out, even though they admitted doing it. It was reported at the time that they were to be made an example of by executing them to warn any other people of the consequences of carrrying out such barbaric crimes. I never knew until I researched after this latest double murder, that their sentences were commuted to life imprisonment. Which as from my knowledge of prison in Thailand, through the media, you'd probably be better getting executed. So I was wondering if the police had thought about the possibility that maybe there were fishing vessels just off the island and that some of the crew could of come ashore and been responsible for this outrage? Just a thought!

You are joking of course! No skipper radioed the authorities. The investigation had to be taken out of the hands of the Samui Police and handed over to a team from Bangkok. Samui police were arresting all and sundry foreigners and Burmese,. The culprits were Thai. They did swim back to their boat and they told other crew what they had done, describing the woman as 'roi' southern Thai abbreviation for 'aroi' - delicious. None of the crew told anyone else about it - until they were confronted by police I suspect in a very forceful way. It simply would not have occurred to them to go to police.

The mother has NEVER STATED to Andrew Drummond that her son was 'incredibly intoxicated'. The evidence is totally to the contrary. The family is not connected to the Australian Embassy. Knowing a friend of a friend who works there is 'no connected'. At any rate the Embassy have said the usual we can do 'sweet fa'. Three punches? Two punches? Actually the story has been consistent. How do you manage to make up so much stuff in so few words? There is no evidence of any fight. There is evidence of an ambush.

The mother wants blood. Blood is different than justice. Justice would be justified. And this is simply not. The mother also stated in a public letter that was published on an Andrew Drummond article admitting that her son was "incredibly intoxicated." The family is also connected to the Australian Embassy, as stated in almost every article surrounding this case. Although it may not be blatantly stated, who WOULDN'T try and use their connections to get what they believe they deserve. I also was never saying that the roids suggestion came from the family, I was replying to a different user as you can see. I do not actually believe the family has been sticking to the facts they were given, as they say it was 3 punches while it actually was only 2. The boys aren't devils. This story is completely one sided, and has been one sided since it began. I have full sympathy towards BOTH parties.

Roids? Really? The two boys could be athletes, or could simply just enjoy living a healthy life by going to the gym from time to time. It is inconsiderate to make assumptions about people who you do not even know. I do not either, but I am trying to make some sense out of these two boys. The boy was drunk and probably does not even remember what happened that night. Everyone has been mentioning the amount of money that the Chang's have, but nothing about the Wang's. It is possible that Raymond Chang is very wealthy, but do not assume the same of Ryan Wang just because he is acquainted with Raymond. None of the articles have stated that Ryan is just as wealthy, and since there is no proof to that you cannot assume that this will breeze by for them.

ilove bangkok11,

If it had been a bar room punch up that had gone a bit over the top, I could understand your desire to remind is that there are always 2 (or more) sides to any story. Possibly even the news guy shoved his microphone into the old man's face with the intention of provoking a response. Who knows?

BUT, these 2 lads gave the Ozzie kid a serious going over. He wears a mask as he awaits another year or more of surgery! And of course we can't see the psychological scars. And the picture of those two guys does suggest some 'roids at work. So, sorry, no sympathy. And fines mean nothing if you have plenty of cash, as has been pointed out. I would love to see a prison sentence, however brief. But I doubt it will happen, even with the support of the NCPO.

PS I am still so impressed with the NCPO. I now tune in each Friday night to see what new stuff they have uncovered or turned their attention to. If you ever want a country lifted up by its bootlaces, these are the guys to do it.

So what evidence do you have to say the 'boy was drunk'?. What evidence do you have to say the Hansel-Bartel's are 'connected' to the Australian Embassy, and if so why such inaction by the Australian Embassy? And what has Wang's wealth or lack of got to do with it. His parents obviously had to pay to send him to Shanghai American School, but in any case Chang senior is representing both his son and Wang. Well except for one occasion where it is alleged he offered 5 mill on the proviso that JHB withdraw the case against his son - leaving Wang to face it all. The mother has refused all 'conditional' financial offers. She merely wants to see justice done in a system where it can be perverted. Is that so very odd? The roids suggestion does not come from the Aussie family btw - who stick rigidly to the evidence they have been given. This story is only one-sided in respect of the Aussie family doing nothing illegal to pervert the system.

Roids? Really? The two boys could be athletes, or could simply just enjoy living a healthy life by going to the gym from time to time. It is inconsiderate to make assumptions about people who you do not even know. I do not either, but I am trying to make some sense out of these two boys. The boy was drunk and probably does not even remember what happened that night. Everyone has been mentioning the amount of money that the Chang's have, but nothing about the Wang's. It is possible that Raymond Chang is very wealthy, but do not assume the same of Ryan Wang just because he is acquainted with Raymond. None of the articles have stated that Ryan is just as wealthy, and since there is no proof to that you cannot assume that this will breeze by for them.

ilove bangkok11,

If it had been a bar room punch up that had gone a bit over the top, I could understand your desire to remind is that there are always 2 (or more) sides to any story. Possibly even the news guy shoved his microphone into the old man's face with the intention of provoking a response. Who knows?

BUT, these 2 lads gave the Ozzie kid a serious going over. He wears a mask as he awaits another year or more of surgery! And of course we can't see the psychological scars. And the picture of those two guys does suggest some 'roids at work. So, sorry, no sympathy. And fines mean nothing if you have plenty of cash, as has been pointed out. I would love to see a prison sentence, however brief. But I doubt it will happen, even with the support of the NCPO.

PS I am still so impressed with the NCPO. I now tune in each Friday night to see what new stuff they have uncovered or turned their attention to. If you ever want a country lifted up by its bootlaces, these are the guys to do it.

So what evidence do you have to say the 'boy was drunk'?. What evidence do you have to say the Hansel-Bartel's are 'connected' to the Australian Embassy, and if so why such inaction by the Australian Embassy? And what has Wang's wealth or lack of got to do with it. His parents obviously had to pay to send him to Shanghai American School, but in any case Chang senior is representing both his son and Wang. Well except for one occasion where it is alleged he offered 5 mill on the proviso that JHB withdraw the case against his son - leaving Wang to face it all. The mother has refused all 'conditional' financial offers. She merely wants to see justice done in a system where it can be perverted. Is that so very odd? The roids suggestion does not come from the Aussie family btw - who stick rigidly to the evidence they have been given. This story is only one-sided in respect of the Aussie family doing nothing illegal to pervert the system.

This case has two sides to the story. Although I am not connected to either of the sides of this case and am simply a curious reader like many of you, I do believe that people should consider how Ryan Wang and Raymond Chang feel. If it were myself, I would feel remorse but would not think that jail is the answer. Remember that this occurred at a night club where these teens were consuming alcohol. This is simply a drunken club fight against teenagers who do not know better. Ryan and Raymond are not innocent in this situation, but Jack is not either. The two boys from China would not randomly punch a boy, do you not think that Jack would have provoked them in some way?

I just want to remind the people on this forum, as well as others reading, that this is simply one side of the story. I am fully aware that the Australian teen must undergo serious surgery and I am completely sympathetic, however it does not give people the right to say that Raymond Chang is a bad person. If you were a father of a teen that was being charged, it would clearly be a stressful time for him and his family. What he said in the video is justified; what does give the news caster a right to film him and his son?

Jack's family is also very connected in Thailand and Australia, giving them a large advantage in this case. In my opinion, this would not even be this large of a deal if the family was not connected. I believe that the two Chinese boys should pay the medical bill since they caused the harm, however attempting to put them in jail is a bit dramatic.

I am sorry if this post makes people feel uncomfortable since the previous posts seem to all be pro-Jack. I just want to bring somewhat of a counter opinion to this case to remind people that every story has another side.

Why should this post make any body feel uncomfortable. You are merely spouting off assuming without any wherewithal to back it up that Jack provoked these two Chinese Americans. What right does the newscaster? (I assume you men cameraman) have to film a news event? Jack/s family connected? Where are you getting all this rubbish from? Sounds like you are just having a lonely day.

This Shanghai American School Alumni should shut the **** up.

Whole article goes on about preserving the reputation of some school, which we never asked and don't care about. And who are you to speak? Mind your own business.

After reading the article, I have more hatred on this alumni and their school than if I never read it. Thanks for bringing it up.

It really shows the character of these kids. It's all about face, and they will do anything to keep it. A sincere apology and care about the victim would have been enough, and it shows the public how good hearted this alumni is. BUT NO, it's so obvious, "ohhhhh I come from a prestigious rich school, I just want to let you know, we are not all like that, I just need to maintain my school's good reputation, so people will think highly of me" SPOILED BRAT! think about others!!

Sorry, but I think that you are being a bit harsh on the guy that wrote the apology.

Maybe, just maybe, that like us he feels that what happened was wrong. I could be mistaken, but I would give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

A we can see from some of the later posts, there is a lot of angst about 'rich kids/spoilt brats' etc. But - not everyone is the same.

If I understand the latest situation, the NCPO has had the charges against Jack dropped, the suspects have had their passports taken and their lawyer has had his wrist slapped for being a naughty boy. Surely this is positive stuff.

The NCPO has not had the charged dropped. He has been charged with (1) a misdemeanor and (2) assault. There is no medical evidence of any assault.

The fine for a misdemeanor is usually 500 baht. assault not causing injury maybe 1-2000. The cost for the Samui policeman to fly to Bangkok and back 10,000 min. Now Mrs Hansen has to raise cash for a full trial! - Thai justice.

"Fundraising is continuing to help pay for legal costs and Mr Pickles’ care." Things must  be different here. I thought lawyers for prosecution are for paid by the state. Good for fundraising for care, but legal costs? Can someone explain this part please?

The family can prosecute alongside the police. This often helps justice along. i have never heard of the High Court in Bangkok though and if it has been transferred to Bangkok Criminal Court there has to be a good reason.

Change some on arrival at the airport for immediate needs. Change the rest in HH as needed. Don't walk around with wads of cash or leave it in your room/apt/house.

Expect some rain.

For heaven's sake be very ware of changing cash in Hua Hin. And on no account try to change any UK fifty pound notes there - there has been a scam running where they 'discover' a fake note (they have one or two in stock) and they will call Tourist police by pre-arrangement - then on to the city police - Cost one couple near on a million baht. As a rule its best never to deal in foreign currency notes in Thailand - I have even been given forged US dollars by a Thai bank!

Kipper, Arbroath smokies, Loch Fyne prawns (langoustines) Angus beef, any cold water fish, grapefruit, fresh blackberries, cock-a-leekie!

Btw, 'Andrea Drummond'???

Was Andrew going by an alias back then?

Any thing ANDREA DRUMMOND prints is subject to suspicion. Remember the Downtown Hotel 4 deaths and he had it up in the area of 5 plus a couple more in another hotel down south years before.

Four deaths in the Downtown Inn one of which which would not have been revealed had not Drummond found a witness to them carrying the bodies out. The deaths down south were two on Phi Phi island. They were not connected - but were similarly unexplained.

More like 7..

sounds about right

Btw, 'Andrea Drummond'???

Was Andrew going by an alias back then?

Any thing ANDREA DRUMMOND prints is subject to suspicion. Remember the Downtown Hotel 4 deaths and he had it up in the area of 5 plus a couple more in another hotel down south years before.

Four deaths in the Downtown Inn one of which which would not have been revealed had not Drummond found a witness to them carrying the bodies out. The deaths down south were two on Phi Phi island. They were not connected - but were similarly unexplained.

Btw, 'Andrea Drummond'???

Was Andrew going by an alias back then?

Any thing ANDREA DRUMMOND prints is subject to suspicion. Remember the Downtown Hotel 4 deaths and he had it up in the area of 5 plus a couple more in another hotel down south years before.

No.

Wow! Bangkok needs more shopping areas for the Central Group and CP Group to rake in a higher percentage of Thailand's money stream.

Pity they can't run a railway