Bryan in Isaan

Bryan, I take it that you are ironic (or sarcastic) when you say "interesting clear arguments" from sushiman? To me it means a long drawn out discourse, riddled with spelling and grammar errors, and some errors of jugement as well. I don't normally worry about the former if I get the meaning (and I am also guilty from time to time), but this was gross.

I agree that in a modern, first world country, the VOTE (why capitals btw, is it holy or what?) is the only way to go. But here, where votes are for sale for a pittance (using taxpayers money to boot), and the majority of voters are illiterate and have no idea about what is going on, perhaps in this case there might be a third way, by royal intervention, but as an interim measure, and only to get a proper election organised. But I can see that I am arguing against myself here, so I will stop here. I just feel so sorry for this country, but it is for the Thais to clean up the mess they have put themselves in...

I agree that Sushiman's post is a little long. I just noticed that he uses a list of items with some actual substance, whether or not I agree, but better than some other posts around the forum.

I do agree that some voters are uninformed and there is corruption, probably more so here in the villages. My wife had to practically fight off some group of local politicians who were trying to give her a 500B bill for her vote. She didn't take the money and voted for the other guy. Another poster talked about the 30B health care system. Also in terrible shape. I wouldn't go to my local hospital unless I was bleeding to death. If my wife or I need real care we would go to a private hospital in a city like Khon Kaen. However, the villagers dont' have that option. They go to the local hospital on the tuk-tuk with their 30B. If they slip the staff a few hundred more the level of care improves. It is still better than nothing. School system also pathetic here, but now with compulsary education extended a few years, and now a few native English speakers teaching English, the students have some opportunity they didn't have a couple of years ago. They say, "We have the budget now." They almost talked me into teaching at the High School, but I didn't have the nerve. Still a mess, but getting better slowly. I wouldn't be against royal intervention. HM the King will get involved as he sees the need. So far he is allowing the system to work, for the most part.

My wife's family is from Phayao and Chiang Rai. They are not dirt farmers and they are not uneducated, other than Ma, they all have degrees. Of the 6 family members 5 like what Thaksin has done for the country even though they think he's a crook, they will vote for him for free. I'm sure if TRT offered them a few baht they'd take it, they know how the system works.

My wife on the other hand was educated away from the family in an urban environment and has totally different views. Although you could not bribe her to vote for TRT, she would probably take the money and run to the gold shop.

You really can't blame someone that makes 5000Bt a month and supports a family to jump at the chance to have a weekend in the big city on someone else and come home with a few bucks in their pocket, it's only human nature.

It would not surprise me in the least to see the same people at rallies for opposite groups. This should be a big tax free month for a lot of people in Thailand and maybe spreading some of wealth around to the poor is really not all that bad.

Good responses everyone. I don't KNOW that some of the attendees of Thaksin's rally were not paid. There are eyewitness testamonies all over the forum about how someone's brother-in-laws/neighbors/etc.. were getting paid XXX number of baht by either Thaksin or the opposition for attending rallies over the past few weeks. I still doubt that 300M was paid out for the Friday rally though.

Good point Lukamar. People here in the villages do take advantage of these opportunities. These rides to Bangkok do require money and organizing effort. The typical villager is not just going to pack his sticky rice basket in his yam, round trip bus fare (about 800B from here), money for food and lodging, showers, laundry, etc. Many people up here didn't even have spare money to go to town, buy a postcard and a stamp for the postcard mailing. Having said that, support for Thaksin is strong here, paid trips to BKK or not.

Another point. People are implying that voters here in the villages are all for sale. See the previous paragraphs - they DO take the money. The main monetary benefits here are the programs. Now we have the million baht village funds, 30B medical care etc. I have no problem with that. In any country, the government distributes money among the constituents. In Bangkok you have billions of baht going to Skytrains, subways, tax breaks/deals for businesses, etc. Now we have a few billion baht going to the farmers in the villages. Some of that village money is going to waste through corruption or whiskey money, as it always has in BKK, but much of it really does go to improve lives through farm subsidies, new farm equipment, fertilizer, land loans, starting businesses, etc. Things have gotten much better over the past five years for the villagers. I have to give some credit to Thaksin and the TRT for that. I don't blame them for wanting to vote for Thaksin.

Bryan

Sushiman -

Interesting clear arguments, I would like to study them point by point later. However, this whole business of whether or not Thaksin is to remain as PM is decided by the vote, not by a few thousand people standing around Victory Monument, or by a few academic types "DEMANDING" his resignation (<deleted>??). Its the VOTE. Even Abhisit said something about democracy being not just the vote. It IS just the vote. The voters are the judge, jury and executioner. If those of you in the opposition can come up with clear, coherant, positive ideas and get them out to the people, you will have a chance to implement those ideas.

Bryan

Thai PM gambles on poll results

Source: BBC

Mr Thaksin's rural support appears to be holding firm

Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has said he will resign if his party does not win at least 50% of the vote in upcoming elections.</quote>

If Thai Rak Thai are the only party in the election then he must be on a pretty sure thing - or am I missing something?

It is not a sure thing as I understand it. If he doesn't get at least half of the 19 million votes, he will resign. If there are enough people who support the opposition and abstain from voting he will get less than 50%. As I recall, there is even something like an "abstain" choice on the ballot in Thailand.

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets most if not all of the 19 million votes. His support is very strong upcountry.

bb

Thaksin accused of spending Bt300 million to organise Friday rally

Sondhi Limthongkul, a leading member of the PAD, said Thaksin spent Bt100 million to hire 3,000 buses and 5,000 vans to transport people from provinces to Sanam Luang on Friday and spent another Bt200 million to hire the people to attend the rally.

--The Nation 2006-03-04

200M? Thats about 1000 Baht per person? What a crock of sh*t. I wonder how many people really believe that. It sounds like Mr. Sonti is getting desperate. I don't know about other places, but the villagers up here don't need any money to support Thaksin. I suppose Thaksin sent all those postcards to himself too.

bb

Great topic guys! I was just about to do a search on Dell Thailand to shop for a complete system and here it is on the front page.

One of the great things about buying a Dell system back in the states is their interactive, informative website and the ease of shopping in the comfort of one's own home - and no smiling saleperson standing next to me. Especially here, where I can't even communicate very well with the sales person. That in addition to Dell's great pricing and quality. Although I'm sure someone can put me in touch with a agent, it sounds like I can't have the same comfortable shopping experience I am used to back home. I might have to go to the computer shops and get a generic one. Too bad. I hope Dell Thailand/Malaysia will get their website up to speed. I have 60k cash burning a hole in my pocket.

I will do some more searching and checking of my own and check back on this thread from time to time.

Thanks,

Bryan

Don't you dare to assume that the topic title and description suggest that I am pro-Thaksin. I need to make that perfectly clear for those who don't read everything.

My question stems from not having any experience or knowledge of other governments that came and went before Thaksin became prime minister. Since I know there's quite a few farang out there who have been in Thailand for quite many years I'm curious as to how they would compare Thaksin's regime to that of others. Better or worse?

Granted that may be a hard comparison since I've read that Thaksin is the first premier to serve a full four-year term since 1932. Which is a rather astounding fact. But I'm sure comparisons could be made. What were the reasons that caused the ouster of so many other prime minister's? Is history continually repeating itself in the sense that resolutions to long term problems have yet to be found?

While I'm not pro-Thaksin the question now is who will fill his shoes? Is this a potential case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire?" I imagine that since no one has a crystal ball only time will tell. Perhaps the mere hope of a more capable individual taking control is better than the alternative of keeping an individual known to be corrupt.

Then again, my views on politics is not very optimistic. Especially coming from the U.S. where Bush unbelievably and sadly, in IMHO, won a second term. I don't see too many great leaders anywhere in the world. By 'great' I mean people who possess exceptional wisdom and vision to help guide and sustain them in an increasingly complex political arena where business interests seem to influence policies more so than any other group. After all, most politicians are business people. And people will always tend to look after their own interests.

As for as Thaksin's shrewd move to extend his political longevity I don't believe it will be long lasting regardless of whether or not he wins a re-election. As long as his antics remain the same it will only be a matter of time. Give a man enough rope and he'll eventually hang himself.

For myself, I'll always look forward to a brighter future.

Good objective post, whether you are for or against Thaksin.

I happen to have a good impression of Thaksin, but I have only lived in Thailand for about four years. I am learning a lot every day from the news and from info that is posted on this forum, so I look forward to seeing some answers to your questions in this thread.

I think the opposition has no choice right now but to comply to the democratic process. Undoubtably the PM will be reelected, good or bad. The opposition doesn't have time to organize a political campaign in such a short time. In reality, political opponents have three years to come up with constructive solutions and candidates and solid support. That three years also subjects them to scrutiny, which is only fair. Refusing to comply to this "reelection", in reality a vote of confidence, as the opposition is talking about, could lead to violence and anarchy.

Follow the legal process. Then, as they say - "May the best man win", the one who can lead the country into the "brighter future".

Bryan

There he goes again - up to his old tricks again. Now he's pulling that old democracy stuff - have a vote. Yeah right - hear that before - get the mandate from the people....Woo the illiterate peasants living outside of Bangkok...buy votes...Bla Bla Bla....

Come on guys. Give it a break. What is Thaksin supposed to do? A few political opponents go into a tizzy, raise up a mob - not even a substantial mob, get a few signatures from a university and then DEMAND that he step down. What right does Sonti and his little group have to demand anything? Or run the country even if they had any alternative leaders? They know they don't have a chance in any legal process such as the upcoming vote. They are a powerless minority, full of hot air but no substance. It's time for them to make a graceful exit and come up with some constructive ideas, real support and perhaps some candidates over the next three years between now and the election. And while they're at it - get rid of those goofy looking headbands.

Bryan

I would guess that Mr. Sondhi's group needs to create the appearance that he has supporters in Isaan, "grassroots supporters", as PM Thaksin has, and thus can put together these little paid "tours".

Granted, I don't have all the details behind this, and who exactly is bankrolling all these "protestors", but it may be that both sides occasionally engage in this practice. TIT.

Bryan

Interesting. I really wonder who is bankrolling all this. As far as I know, Sondhi's company is still "under rehabilitation" according to the Stock Exchange of Thailand, though I remember he formally exited bankruptcy 2-3 years back. Anyone out there have any ideas?

I don't have the answer, but the amounts would be relatively small, maybe a few million for a protestor group like those from Kalasin. So, a few TV spots like this from either side would be cheap. As a previous poster said "the opposition is not monolithic". Neither side is. Support could be coming from anywhere.

Bryan

Protesters call for Thai PM to quit, but rally turnout low

15,000 demonstrators down from 50,000 at the royal square a week ago

Make that 100,000 last week, and a good turnout this time also, despite many protesters being turned away by the police again.

But the low turnout is likely to be seen as indication that the anti-government movement is losing steam.

Repeat after Me : I believe everything I am told on government-controlled TV

Meanwhile, several pro-Thaksin rallies were held in the country's rural north and northeast, drawing several thousand people at each.

At our local one, the inducement was rumoured to be a free song-thaew ride into Chiang-Mai, 100 Baht in cash, and a free meal afterwards. Having driven past during the meeting, it looked sparsely-attended, to me. Perhaps because the payment is going down ?

As someone told me, who had been at last Saturday's rally, "We all go for free, and pay our own travel-costs, because we hate Thaksin. He has to pay people to go, or give away free cars & houses & money."

2006-02-12 AFP

What?!? only 100 baht?? Sondhi pays much better. A couple of relatives got paid well over 1000B and a ride to Khon Kaen from Kalasin. One of them got cold feet and came home, he had been told by the recruiter that he was going to a political meeting, not a protest. The other relative is continuing to travel with Sondhi's road show and making quite a good living. Good work if you can get it. Remember the footage of the 200 "anti-Thaksin" protestors from Kalasin? That was them. The regional organizers - those recruiting Mr. Sondhi's "anti-Thaksin" protesters from the villages are getting paid much, much more than that.

I would guess that Mr. Sondhi's group needs to create the appearance that he has supporters in Isaan, "grassroots supporters", as PM Thaksin has, and thus can put together these little paid "tours" to create TV footage. Propaganda.

Granted, I don't have all the details behind this, and who exactly is bankrolling all these "protestors", but it may be that both sides occasionally engage in this practice. TIT.

Bryan

Bobcat, you beat me by about 30 seconds - read read read. I am not nearly as far along as you all in my Thai studies, but I'm hoping this method works for me. I am out here in the villages, where there are no language schools and people speak Lao, so I am doing must of my Thai studies by reading. It helped me a great deal in my own native language, English. I read a lot when I was a kid. Now I can spell better than average without using spell check or anything like that. Maybe no big deal for my own language, but I really believe it helped. Now, if I can only stop doing typos and cut and paste errors...

Bryan

Good work, Tingnonnoi and Bobcat!

Interesting about the Japanese. I wonder what they think about studying Thai, and how their experiences compare to those of westerners. As I recall, like Thai, Japanese also has good phonetic alphabets - two of them, and short and long vowels. Like western languages, theirs is not tonal. It would be interesting to hear from some of the Japanese who are studying Thai.

Bryan

Amarka and Plus, the two most sensible posts i've read all year.

I've rarely seen a government as active as this one in trying to make Thailand better. Not all of their policies are sound (in fact many are not fully thought through), but most of them are consistent with a desire to move the country forward. To me, any government that tries this hard deserves credit.

People on this board find every excuse to ridicule and put them down and accuse them of corruption. People don't see that this government has played a good hand in economic management, paying down the IMF loans 2 years ahead of schedule, which led to sovereign rating upgrades, allowing the finance sector to free up liquidity to reinvest, proactively clamping down on consumer credit growth, promoting growth of FDIs in key industries such as Autos and electronics, actively managing the property growth cycle, sustaining GDP growth despite the many hard hits last year, record employment rates presently, raising minimum wage levels, making inroads with China, championing regional trade and Asean growth, corporatisation of large and inefficient state agencies, finally getting the airport built, expanding urban infrastructure while managing public debt to below 2% of GDP, etc etc.

Most people here are just parroting what they hear and read in the media, and the Thai media is one of the most childish and unprofessional i have ever come across. They talk about corruption and oppression and abuse of power because scandal sells papers, not because they really have the public interests at heart.

Thaksin may be filthy rich, he may be politically shrewd, he may be autocratic, a few of his cronies may even be on the take, but i personally do not believe him to be an evil person. I'm sure that he didn't acquire his wealth by being a thug, in his business environment, he would have had to please many more people for each toe he stepped on in order to get to where he did. The truth is the Thai people want a strong leader, i would even say that due to their very forgiving/tolerant culture, they need a strong leader. But the Thai people value their freedom even more, and the threat of losing it is what the media is preying on.

The media has cooked up such a fervour of distrust and hatred that i see people ridiculing him for innocent things such as encouraging children to read. And whats wrong with announcing that you want everything to be a hub? A statement of intent is a powerful message even if it does nothing more than motivate people into thinking that they can be bigger and better than before. All i seem to hear from the mob here is cynicism and negativity. I'm glad there are still a few lonely voices here who are able to see things with reason and objectivity.

Great Post. Also, I have been wondering what it was that Thaksin is supposed to have said against or disrespectful of HM the King or royal family or whatever. I heard that charge a couple of times, but never with any examples or instances. It looks to me like Thaksin and the King have a close relationship, more so than previous PMs. In the King's speeches he sometimes gives gentle rebukes or guidance, but always seems to speak of the PM fondly. Someone tell me if I am missing something.

Bryan

....

I think I mentioned it before but the book "The Far Country" gives a good albeit sentimental portrait of the Kalasin area in the late 50s.

I am curious about that book, "The Far Country". Do you have an authors name, ID number or anything? I might want to track down a copy. Another decent one is "Child of the Northeast" (I don't have the rest of the info at the moment). It is a story about a family in a village back in the 30's or 40's. It is centered around the Roi Et area. Part of it takes place around the Chi river.

Bryan

Thaksin does indeed have the power, influence and money to win against Sondhi. He is after all, the PM, head of the police and armed forces. Mr. Thaksin may be somewhat heavy handed, but that does not mean the entire country is against him. Sondhi has some interesting criticisms but he did himself a huge disservice to talk of violence rather than continuing to put forth ideas and maybe continuing to gain support. When one thinks of the 1973 uprising, bloodshed comes to mind. Most people don't want that or see it as necessary at this time, even if they are strongly against Thaksin. As Bulmerke said, Sondhi does indeed have the right to petition the King. That is one of the legal recourses he could have taken. After his recent statements he might not have as much standing before the King and might even get reprimanded. That would not be good for him politically.

Bryan

....

As a result, money from the Thai gov't, as well as the American gov't came pouring in to build good highways and other improvements; for defense and to try and "win back" the Isaan people....

59 squadron Royal engineers built roads and bridges in the Ubon , Mukdaharn area between 1962 and 1968, brought the first power and new wells to many villages in the area,only americans in the Muk area at that time was the sneaky pete outfit up on Phu mhu, were plenty of USAAF and RAAF in Ubon, there were the odd groups of special forces in the area were also boys from bradbury lines enjoying the wildlife too nignoy

The inlaws tell us the highway between Kalasin and SakonNakon was built with the help of American engineers. That's the one that goes up the hill with all the switchbacks. I'm not sure about the roads around Muk.

Bryan

Good info, and thanks everyone for the clarifications. I think there was a lot of activity along the Mekong, especially in Mukdahan province, as was mentioned in an earlier post. We are in Kalasin, where there were a few attacks, but not as many as in Mukdahan. It's been said that the Thai government was neglectful of the Isaan people and therefore the Isaan was easily infiltrated by groups like the CPT. As a result, money from the Thai gov't, as well as the American gov't came pouring in to build good highways and other improvements; for defense and to try and "win back" the Isaan people. There are some parallels between the situations in Isaan in the 60'/70's and the present situation in the south. Lets hope there will be some resolution to the problems in the south, as there was in the Isaan.

Bryan

Media firebrand plans rally at Sanam Luang on Feb 4

...

''It will be the first and last time I will mobilise the people. I alone will lead and make decisions. The people can trust me. And please, all of you who love and care for the country, please join the rally and make the Oct 14, 1973 uprising look like child's play.

''I'll mobilise 'squatters and drifters' across the nation to oust the erratic government that has robbed the country,'' he said, referring to remarks from government leaders that his supporters who turned up at his weekly talk show were largely squatters and homeless people.

...

Source: Bangkok Post - Saturday January 21, 2006

It sounds like Mr. Sondhi is losing it. At some point he will be whisked away by the men with the white jackets.

If he is planning to start a bloody revolution similar to Oct14,1973, I don't think his support base will be as strong as he thinks it is. What he said already ought to be enough to get him thrown in prison. Several times he has mentioned petitioning the king. If he has the audacity to actually do that, I think it will be his undoing.

Bryan

The Viet Cong were very active in NE Thailand. They killed monks, teachers and puyaibans (sound familiar?), blew up bridges and destroyed villages who would not submit to them.

I don't think there were any VC in NE Thailand then (or ever). A few Vietnamese cadres (also Lao and Chinese) perhaps, but she's probably referring to Thai communists, specifically the People's Liberation Army of Thailand, whose ranks grew to around 10,000 armed insurgents during their late 70s peak.

There were no vietcong in ne thailand in the early 60,s but there were lots of Viet minh indoctrinated pathet laos and their sympathisers operating all along the little muddy from Chaiburi down to south of ubon, the mukdaharn area was a favourite place for them to cross , hence the US sneaky pete outfit at Phu Mhu which later became a radar and radio listening post, this is all documented in Britains Small wars, Nignoy

Interesting. You guys might have information more specific than I do. I'm not an expert in this area. I'll ask my wife again about this, and how the locals referred to them. She describes them as outsiders. They came into villages and and took over, using terrorism. Are VC specifically Vietnamese reporting to Ho Chi Mihn, as opposed to other types of communists?

Bryan

It is very hard for the English, paractically impossible for most Americans and better we not speak about the Ozzies

Actually in my nine years experience it's the Brits and Aussies that speak it the best.

Hence, the old joke:

What do they call someone who speaks two languages? - - - Bilingual.

What do they call someone who speaks three languages? - - Trilingual.

What do they call someone who speaks one language? - - - - American.

Bryan (an American)

......

One comment that deserves comment is the reference here to the now ancient myth that American GIs brought sex and drugs to devout Thailand. Sorry, gents, but it was all here in the prewar sixties in almost exactly the same form as present.

In the villages you could pick marijuana by any roadside for free. It was interesting to see how and when the villagers would choose their intoxicant du jour. Nam kaow (which used to mean rice beer), ganja, and "mekong" which is the same pleasant rum-like stuff you see everywhere now were the usual choices. I don't remember lao kaow but I suppose it was there. too.

Since marijuana seemed so exciting in those days I once asked one of the locals why he didn't smoke that instead paying to drink alcohol.

"I don't like."

"Why?"

"Make me feel very small."

My wife has lots of interesting stories from the early 60's where she grew up in a small village in the Isaan. One is about a GI who came looking around for some pot. You're right, it was everywhere. There was a little girl who sold a large plant to him, probably for a few cents. Another time, my wife had some older releatives who kept their bong in a farm shelter. For a joke, she rubbed charcoal around the mouth of the bong and had a good laugh later when they used it.

The Viet Cong were very active in NE Thailand. They killed monks, teachers and puyaibans (sound familiar?), blew up bridges and destroyed villages who would not submit to them.

She tells of jungles everywhere, with large trees, tigers (or some kind of large cat), wild elephants, large lizards which lived in trees and a king cobra which her father fought with and lost one eye. And the soil was fertile. That was before the irrigation canals. Now it is all flat rice fields, the soil is lousy and there is no wild game larger than the field rats.

She tells how people from the village were more honest, innocent and content. Very few women went away to the go-go bars in the big city. I don't think TV has helped much in this area.

Later she got scholarships and ended up attending high school in Bangkok. She also has some stories of the 1973 student uprising, and getting blood on her uniform.

Things have changed a lot, both in Bangkok and in the villages. Being a newby - and a wimp, I do appreciate the good highways, airports, department stores in the major Isaan cities and internet access.

Bryan

.......

In my earlier days of attempting Thai, we had an apparently major religious master (with a cluster of doting followers in trail) visit our home and something I attempted to say in Thai had my wife racing from the kitchen shouting, "No, NO Ken, NO!! The devotees in tow were in total shock but fortunately a sense of humor prevailed and I was let off the hook.

The second event was at a rather classy restaurant here in CM and when I attemped to order breakfast in Thai, not only did the waitress race off as though I was the devil himself, every Thai person sitting at the surrounding tables either looked at me in stunned silence or moved to more removed seats. That was more than two years ago and to this day, my wife of five years will still not tell me what I said/ordered... "It is okay Ken, no need worry about learn Thai..."

It is a bitch being a lost cause, ain't it...?

Soooo.... What was it you were trying to say to the religious master and the waitress? And what did you actually say? Come on, you can tell us.

I've heard variations on these stories and I am waiting for that bomb to fall someday for me too. However, strangely enough, I think the Thais actually understand me sometimes. They prove it by answering or commenting according to what I said. Other times they just smile, nod and quickly walk away, thus proving that they didn't understand what I said.

Bryan

I think that disclaimer the foreign spouse signs might eliminate his/her chances to inherit the property. It would then be up for grabs by the deceased Thai citizen's family. This country isn't very

investment friendly, is it?

Bryan

...

Correct me if i'm wrong, this seem to be part of a yearly trend. I recall the same margin about 1 year ago. but if i'm wrong, the good life will soom be over for this humble retiree

Just from the trends, I don't think you are wrong. This has happened for the past three years - every year about this time, just before we make a small transfer, US to Thai. Again, we will get about about 5% less baht.

Don't worry about your retirement. The dollar will cycle back to 40 or 41 in a few months.

Bryan

....

I suppose I could always ask for assistance from a nubile, long-legged, tight-skirted, small-breasted, pouting-lipped, exoticingly sensuous female university student at the shopping mall.........but I doubt she'll have a pair of scissors handy.

Just for contrast, this is an example of GOOD packaging in Thailand.

Bryan