TheVicar

I had trouble at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane. There's a real bitch on the desk there. She leafed through my passport and noted I had gotten visas from Thai embassies and consulates in Indonesia and Malaysia. Without prompting, indeed without my saying anything, she said, "Anyone can get visas there!" in a very harsh and unfriendly manner while glaring at me like I was a criminal.. She then gave me a dirty look like it was my fault! I've never heard of a consular official in one country complaining in such a fashion about the same governments work at two other places.

There was one page left on my passport; it clearly said it was for visas and the Laos had used it to stamp their entry permit into it (taking up little space too). She told me my passport was full. When I pointed out that the Laos had used the last page and there was plenty of space, she said full of malice, "Thailand is not Laos!" She refused to discuss the matter further and refused to give me her name (she wore no badge). I asked to see her supervisor (who also wore no name badge; in fact, I saw him take it off before he met me) but she had a lengthy talk with him before he "saw" me and he did not even listen to what I said, instead calling security to have me taken away. His attitude was, "How dare you question one of my people."

I had to buy a ticket and fly back into Bangkok for the 30 days, and of course, the immigration people at the airport used the last page for their stamp, no questions asked, and no complaints!

Since then, I've used Penang. It's much better. Your hotel can arrange the visa for you within the same day if you get them your passport early in the morning. You just fill out the application form and give them 2 passport pics and R 140 (R 110 for the embassy; R 30 for the service)

By the way, if you think Laos is cheap think again; prices there have doubled in the last 3-4 years and there is noting to do but eat and drink at nighttime.

1.5million is your budget?...... you will get nothing but a basic lump of concrete on a tiny plot of land in a noisy unpleasant Hood.

Good Luck.....

Total rubbish.

For example, in certain parts of Hang Dong, near the police station, it is possible to buy a nice plot of land almost half a rai in size for about 400 to 500 thousand baht and have a fair sized home built that you can design yourself for approx 700 to 800 thousand baht, maybe cheaper depending on the quality of building materials used. That’s exactly what my wife’s cousin done who is married to an Irish guy, only 8 months ago and I very much don`t that the prices have increased since then.

Avoid the rip-off farang priced real estate agents and those advertised in the classifieds, as most of them are well over priced.

Once you find a desirable plot of land, it is always easy to find the local builders.

A very sensible post but I think you can actually buy one rai of land for around B 350,000. As others have indicated, the best way to do this is to drive around yourself and identify either land or houses (signs in Thai will give you better prices) preferably with a Thai speaking native. Prices go way up with real estate agents because you are paying them a huge commission. I'm not sure that having "conversations" with locals, as one person suggested, is such a good idea because if you go and ask people at random about land, they too will expect a commission and since you are not a local by definition the prices will be outlandish (sorry for the bad pun). Best is to deal directly and only with the land owners and do this through your Thai friend(s) and not be involved.

I saw an ad (on the Internet originally) that had been posted for very cheap land in the countryside (I think it was 25 rai for B 9 million), called and it turned out it was a realty agency. They said the ad was a "mistake" at first, then they changed their story and said it was a "misprint" and then they said that the land never really existed at all! The ad was just a means of getting people to call them, as far as I could tell. They had, of course, much more expensive land to sell me elsewhere.

I also know of people who have done this (bought land and built their own place) and spent about B 750,000 on building a house which turned out really nice for them. So total cost could be around B 1 million to B 1.5 million; so any homes priced above B 3.5 million (some with very little land which is the most expensive part of building here) are out of line and B 10 million are really, really overpriced.

Interesting thread about what the dish actually is because I never knew what made bolognese bolognese. At the same time the point seems to have been forgotten, and that is the effort to recreate a dish on the other side of the world with the available ingredients. Forgive me but I don't think the heart of bolognese is the meat, meaning if you are doing the sauce right then you can probably substitute to some degree. I mean, look at what passes for pizza these days.

I come from close to New Orleans, LA and am always frustrated by restaurants in other parts of the world that call their food Cajun but that fail miserably in their attempts to make it. What spoils it for me isn't specific ingredients so much as a complete failure to understand what is at the core of the dish. What makes it what it is. I mean, without gulf seafood, you'll never get the flavor exactly right but that doesn't mean you quit trying.

Though this is a thread on an Italian restaurant that morphed into one about Italian food I can't pass up the opportunity to comment on the Cajun and/or Creole Food. Nothing is more misrepresented, even in America, of this cuisine! Of course just burning/carbonizing some spicy sugar coating on a chicken is not blackened but it's the flavor profile beginning with the use of the "holy trinity" of aromatic vegetables (onion, celery and green pepper) or the proper roux and to understand the food, it's history etc. I moved to NO to learn flavoring and cooked in the French Quarter and forever have a deep romance with the food from there. I'm with you brother!!

Oh, I mentioned the source of the food stuffs earlier in this topic so I agree with you on this too

About 15 years or so ago, I was in Singapore, walked into an uber expensive hotel to have lunch there and saw an enormous farang chef, with a natty golf-type hat and salt and pepper Van Dyke style of beard, preparing Cajun food and giving a lecture on it. I had no idea who he was but it was immediately clear that he was an authority on food and especially Cajun food which I knew nothing about. His talk and food preparation of a special menu for this occasion was extraordinary (and he had a showman flair about him too; good sense of humor and excellent speaking skills).

He was so big, maybe 150 kilos, that he could not stand up, so he sat in a kind of specially-made chair that he could zip around in while he made food for those in attendance while talking about it. He looked like a bear in a wheelchair. After his demo was over and having eaten the food he prepared (which had 10 zillion calories in it especially a tasty dessert he made with ice cream and 3 or 4 different liquors, sauces and nuts and whipped cream), I went and talked with him. Most of the other guests there at the hotel where Chinese and they avoided the strange looking farang, so we had a long conversation.

He was very lively, very animated, loved food and talking about it, even to non experts. He was extraordinarily friendly and humble. And he was an encyclopedia on food! This was Paul Prudhomme, master Cajun chef, author of maybe a dozen cookbooks on the topic. The hotel, one of the best in Singapore, had brought him over for a weekend as their guest chef. So the only Cajun meal I have ever eaten was specially prepared by none other than Paul Prudhomme. It was food unlike any I've ever eaten: unmistakeably of French origins but with zing!

One of the nicest experiences I've had with a person from the famous set. The only other person of fame who I've met who was so humble was none other than M. Ali, who I once met on a beach in California.

Most imported foods are at least the same price as back home.

Can't agree with you here.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Imported foods would usually be at least the same price as OZ, but often more. It has been that way ever since I first came here. I don't like it, but that is how it is.

I've only been to Oz once but they are making some very good dairy products and cheeses these days. Ditto for Wisconsin in the USA.

I know that Oz has a sizable group of people of Italian descent so maybe that explains it? Such products are expensive here because of transport and taxes and because the Thais as a whole do not have this food group as part of their native cuisine. When I first came to Thailand over 20 years ago, I recall there was really no fresh milk in the stores, let alone cheese. Most Thais do not like the taste of cheese especially sharp, tangy ones (they think the mold and blueness of it, for instance, means it is unhealthy).

As someone who would take only cheese (and wine!) if I was to be stranded on a desert island for the rest of my life, I take a close personal interest in where to get cheese....and where not to get cheese in Chiang Mai. So, a few ideas and tips, hope these are helpful

1. Dont buy cheese at Tops or Dacheeso (or whatever its called). Tops is expensive and unoriginal, Dacheeso is just terrible lumps of vaguely cheesy tasting stuff which I ve tried and wouldnt touch again!!

2. Best value for money right now is Makro, Hang Dong Road. Go to the deli area, left side as you enter, just near the wine counter and there are quite a few good flavoured cheeses mostly at very reasonable prices, eg, Cheddars, Gorgonzola, Emmenthal, Gouda, Brie, etc.....check the price per 100 gram, most are reasonable but a few are still too expensive for me such as Danish Blue and Blue Stilton. Most cheeses in that area are around 100 Baht per 100 grams, give or take, and they are imported cheeses with good condition and good flavour.

3. For good and more unusual French cheeses, go to Big C Extra (the former Carrefour) on the super highway. They have a tie up with a French supermarket called Casino, and have quite a few genuine and unusual French cheeses most at reasonable prices, but a bit more expensive than Makro.

4. If you want a Camembert type cheese from Rimping, look for a locally made one in a circular box called Hapico. Its made right here in Chiang Mai, and from my experience, its a very good alternative to and half the price of the other Camembert type cheeses in Rimping. You ve got to be a bit rich or desperate to pay the four to five hundred baht you often see on the imported French cheeses in Rimping!!

I dont know why I ve posted this. I probably wont be able to get my favourite cheeses now!!! Anyway, good luck, fellow cheesophiles!!!

1. Great post. I completely agree on Decheeso being unappealing (and expensive for what you get, which is a 3rd rate product).

2. Check out Makro again for their Danish blue. It's pretty inexpensive (they have cut it off from a large block and a fairly large portion is only about B 150). It's my favorite and especially good in salad dressings.

3. Rimping's soft cheeses are very, very good (and quite fresh because of heavy turnover). Agree that they are expensive, though, because they're imported from France.

4. Yok has wholesale sizes of butter at very cheap prices. Great store! Try it.

Decent cheddar and gouda available at Makro. But you need to buy the block, 1-4 Kgs. That's the catch.

Otherwise Rimping have a good selection, though on the pricey side.

You are not in Kansas (Sydney) anymore Toto.

1) This is wrong. As Terminatorchiangmai correctly notes, you can buy lots of very good cheeses at Makro and it is not necessary to buy it in such large amounts. At least the Makro out by the airport where I shop frequently. It's my go-to store. They have a friendly worker on hand, by the way, who will cut off your order to your request from a larger block of cheese if necessary. So if you want only 200 g., ask for it. They also have an excellent refrigerated case full of cheeses of small sizes; I especially like their Danish blue which is reasonably priced. They also have a good ricotta cheese (from Australia, I think) which comes in a small tub. Excellent cheese selection at perhaps the best prices in town. Rimping is also good but far pricier; they have an especially good selection of soft cheeses (like Brie).

2) Yok, a large supermarket that caters to restaurants and to bakers (opposite Big C Extra) also has very good prices on cheeses (and on butter which you can buy in large sizes). I recall seeing a nice Danish Feta cheese there. Smaller selection than Makro, though, but terrific for baking supplies of all kinds. This is a fascinating store that has surprisingly few farang customers. It is large, clean, and very well stocked with items that other places do not have.

3) I find Decheeso's products to be disappointing and to be avoided. They are almost the same price as imported products that are much tastier and much better. Yolanda, a Thai yoghurt , makes a far better plain yoghurt than their product and it is available at Tops, Rimping and Makro (B 51 for a large size here).

Here is the recipe prepared by prominent Chef Mario Caramella for the "Gruppo Virtuale Cuochi Italiani (GVCI), an international organization and network of culinary professionals dedicated to authentic Italian cuisine, which annually organizes and promotes an "International Day of Italian Cuisines" (IDIC). This recipe served as the basis for the organization's January, 2010 event (450 chefs participating in 50 countries) for which Tagliatelle alla Ragu Bolognese was the signature dish. Media coverage often misidentified this group and this recipe for that of the l'Accademia Italiana della Cucina (see Wikipedia article referenced above).

" Tagliatelle with ragù Bolognese sauce, Tagliatelle al Ragù alla Bolognese by Mario Caramella

In Italy, there are several traditional recipes of Tagliatelle al ragù alla Bolognese with more or less slight variations and far too many individual interpretations of it. This recipe has been tailored mainly for all those non Italian chefs who aim at serving this traditional Italian dish abroad in a correct and professional way. The recipe however may be useful also to the many Italian chefs in Italy, as well as abroad, who are just as confused about it. It takes into account the basics of the various streams of the Italian tradition as well as the experience of many talented chefs, including many GVCI associates. I hope it will give you a clear direction and help you achieve a good result.

Mario Caramella

Ingredients per person

100 gm dry, egg dough tagliatelle

200 gm Bolognese ragù (see recipe ahead)

Grana Padano or Parmigiano Reggiano cheese freshly grated

Procedure

• Cook the pasta in salted boiling water, strain when al dente, and place it in a hot pasta bowl or plate
  
• Bring the sauce to boil and if too thick add little water from the pasta
  
• Spoon the hot sauce over the steaming and fragrant tagliatelle and serve with the freshly grated cheese on the side
  
• Put a spoon and a fork so the guests can mix their own pasta and put the right amount of grated cheese. This is the real and better way to enjoy this dish. The alternative is to sauté the pasta and the sauce in the kitchen and then serve it.
  
• Do not decorate with basil leaves or chopped parsley, or even more gross with garlic bread on the side
  

* * *

Bolognese ragù sauce

To achieve a great result, this sauce should be made fresh every morning and be served within a few hours or the same day

Ingredients for 2 kg (approx) of Bolognese Ragù

600gm coarsely ground lean beef

400gm coarsely ground lean pork

200gm pancetta diced or chopped

100gm chopped onion

100gm carrot diced

100gm celery diced

1kg tomato peeled (canned)

300ml dry white wine

500ml fresh milk

3 pc bay leaves

Black pepper and salt to taste

Procedure

• Place the pancetta in a thick base large stainless steal saucepot (cm30x20) stir and cook over low flame until the fat is melted, add the onion and keep stirring until the onion is translucent
  
• Add the carrot and celery and the bay leaves and keep cooking until the vegetables start to soften and get some colour,
  
• Raise the flame to very high and add the ground meats, previously mixed and seasoned with salt and black pepper and mixed well, by hand ( wearing gloves!)
  
• Keep cooking and stirring with a wooden spoon until the meat is well done
  
• Pour in the white wine and keep cooking until the wine has evaporated
  
• Process briefly the peeled tomatoes in the food mill and add to the pot and continue cooking slowly over a low flame for at least 2 hours, if it becomes too dry add some beef stock
  
• Add some milk and some chicken stock, stir and leave to slow boiling at low flame
  
• Keep going with the milk and the stock for 60 minutes at low flame
  
• Season to taste and leave to rest
  

Notes

The traditional pasta that goes with Bolognese sauce are the tagliatelle, serving spaghetti with Bolognese sauce is actually a sign of mediocrity in the understanding of Italian cuisine"

Source: http://www.itchefs-g...=585&Itemid=975

The Vicar's take on this witty and lovely recipe is: it is actually better if refrigerated and kept a day or so. That is my only disagreement with the above chef, but he's a master and I'm not.

I've been to La Fontana a few times now. Good date restaurant. Also a nice place to meet and catch up with friends. I enjoy the garden and open restaurant design. Good Food, too !

I get a 30% discount every time I go there.... 'cause I buy those restaurant vouchers off the Dining Guide CM guy. That doesn't hurt. I've mentioned that you can get these things for a few of the top resto's in town before and alot of people went off on the Cheap Charlie trick. If anyone wants more info about those I'll repost.

I get a kick out of ordering a Caesar salad (a Mex invention) at Fontana. Theirs is a good interpretation with thick shavings of parmesan and nice big pieces of bacon. Bacon ? Like I said, it's their interpretation.

Last time there my friend got the mushroom raviolis in a cream sauce. So good ! Pasta with a red sauce is my usual thing in an Italian place, but those ravioli are killer. Might have to get those for myself next time.

A good post with some nice info and it brings the thread back to the topic of the restaurant. But to add some other fire here to the hot sidetrack topic on bolognese sauce, the actual origins of the Caesar Salad aren't so clear either. Some people say it was invented in Tijuana by a chef called Caesar, but James Beard, a giant in cooking, says it is a "West coast salad" and a "California salad". How does that old saying go, success has many fathers but failure is an orphan. That probably is in play with the origins of Caesar salad.

As for the raging topic of beef in Bolognese sauce, it should be noted that ragu alla Bolognese is the Italian name for Bolognese sauce and ragu comes from the French "ragout" or meat stew. One of the foremost Italian chefs in the world, Antonio Carluccio, the owner of the Neal St. Restaurant in London's Covent Garden and the author of at least 8 Italian cookbooks, several of them bestsellers, who has had two highly successful television series, gives in his recipe for Tagliatelle al Ragu Bolognese (he emphasizes that this recipe should be made with tagliatelle, which has thicker noodles, and NOT spaghetti) "minced lean veal or beef" in addition to "minced lean pork" . See A. Carluccio, Complete Italian Food at p. 163. Similarly, in his recipe for Ragu alla Napoletana Con Penne he starts with beef seasoned in salt and pepper. Parma ham fat is also used in this recipe.

Another award winning Italian cookbook author, Sophie Braimbridge in her Simply Italian at page 40 (gold medal winner of the 2003 Jacob's Creek World Food Media Awards), calls for minced beef AND minced pork in her Bolognese sauce (she agrees with Carluccio that this sauce should NEVER be used with spaghetti but only with tagliatelle.

Wikipedia (in a wonderful article with 23 detailed citations) also indicates that Bolognese ragu is made with meat. The person who is thought to have originated the recipe, Pellegrino Artusi, in the his cookbook published in 1891, called for lean vean fillet. However, Wikipedia's article on Bolognese sauce gives a very nice history of the evolution of this recipe. It includes the following from the Italian Academy of Cuisine (which contradicts what one person writes above):

"In 1982 the Italian Academy of Cuisine (Accademia Italiana della Cucina), an organization dedicated to preserving the culinary heritage of Italy, recorded and deposited a recipe for "classic Bolognese ragù" with the Bologna Chamber of Commerce (La Camera di Commercio di Bologna).^[4][5][6] A version of the academy's recipe for American kitchens was also published.^[1] The academy's recipe confines the ingredients to beef from the plate section (cartella di manzo), fresh, unsmoked pancetta (pancetta di maiale distesa), onions, carrot, celery, passata (or tomato purée), meat broth, dry wine (red or white, not sparkling), milk, salt and pepper. The option of adding a small amount of cream at the end of the preparation is recommended." Indeed, I have looked at the Italian wording of the Academy and the person in a post above (or his translator) mistranslates "cartella di manzo" which definitely means beef from a certain section of the animal.

What does all this mean? Although there may not be a debate about the beef (all the authorities I cite above call for it) unless one goes with the "original" recipe which called for veal (proving again that recipes do evolve with time), there is no doubt that just about all authorities agree that Spaghetti Bolognese is a no-no!

Here's the link to a very good article in Wikipedia on Bolognese sauce and its evolution (along with a pic of what it looks like!):

http://en.wikipedia....Bolognese_sauce

A snippet from that article:

"Ragù alla bolognese is a complex sauce which involves a variety of cooking techniques, including sweating, sautéing and braising. As such, it lends itself well to interpretation and adaptation by professional chefs and home cooks alike. Common sources of differences include which meats to use (beef, pork or veal) and their relative quantities, the possible inclusion of either cured meats or offal, which fats are used in the sauté phases (rendered pork fat, butter, olive or vegetable oil), what form of tomato is employed (fresh, canned or paste), the makeup of the cooking liquids (wine, milk, tomato juices, or broth) and their specific sequence of addition."

..."The many variations tend to be based on a common theme. For instance, garlic is absent from all of the recipes referenced above, as are herbs other than a parsimonious use of bay leaves by some. Seasoning is limited to salt, pepper and the occasional pinch of nutmeg. In all of the recipes meats dominate as the principal ingredient, while tomatoes, in one form or another, are only an auxiliary ingredient."

And: "Gruppo Virtuale Cuochi Italiani (GVCI), an international organization and network of culinary professionals dedicated to authentic Italian cuisine, annually organizes and promotes an "International Day of Italian Cuisines" (IDIC). In 2010 tagliatelle al ragu alla bolognese was the official dish for IDIC.^[18] The event, held on January 17, 2010, included participation by 450 professional chefs in 50 countries who prepared the signature dish according to “an authentic” recipe provided by chef Mario Caramella.^[9] Media coverage was broad internationally,^[19] but reports often incorrectly identified the recipe followed as that of l'Accademia Italiana della Cucina, and some included stock photographs of spaghetti Bolognese."

Who said cooking is not controversial and fascinating?

I've been to La Fontana a few times now. Good date restaurant. Also a nice place to meet and catch up with friends. I enjoy the garden and open restaurant design. Good Food, too !

I get a 30% discount every time I go there.... 'cause I buy those restaurant vouchers off the Dining Guide CM guy. That doesn't hurt. I've mentioned that you can get these things for a few of the top resto's in town before and alot of people went off on the Cheap Charlie trick. If anyone wants more info about those I'll repost.

I get a kick out of ordering a Caesar salad (a Mex invention) at Fontana. Theirs is a good interpretation with thick shavings of parmesan and nice big pieces of bacon. Bacon ? Like I said, it's their interpretation.

Last time there my friend got the mushroom raviolis in a cream sauce. So good ! Pasta with a red sauce is my usual thing in an Italian place, but those ravioli are killer. Might have to get those for myself next time.

A good post with some nice info and it brings the thread back to the topic of the restaurant. But to add some other fire here to the hot sidetrack topic on bolognese sauce, the actual origins of the Caesar Salad aren't so clear either. Some people say it was invented in Tijuana by a chef called Caesar, but James Beard, a giant in cooking, says it is a "West coast salad" and a "California salad". How does that old saying go, success has many fathers but failure is an orphan. That probably is in play with the origins of Caesar salad.

As for the raging topic of beef in Bolognese sauce, it should be noted that ragu alla Bolognese is the Italian name for Bolognese sauce and ragu comes from the French "ragout" or meat stew. One of the foremost Italian chefs in the world, Antonio Carluccio, the owner of the Neal St. Restaurant in London's Covent Garden and the author of at least 8 Italian cookbooks, several of them bestsellers, who has had two highly successful television series, gives in his recipe for Tagliatelle al Ragu Bolognese (he emphasizes that this recipe should be made with tagliatelle, which has thicker noodles, and NOT spaghetti) "minced lean veal or beef" in addition to "minced lean pork" . See A. Carluccio, Complete Italian Food at p. 163. Similarly, in his recipe for Ragu alla Napoletana Con Penne he starts with beef seasoned in salt and pepper. Parma ham fat is also used in this recipe.

Another award winning Italian cookbook author, Sophie Braimbridge in her Simply Italian at page 40 (gold medal winner of the 2003 Jacob's Creek World Food Media Awards), calls for minced beef AND minced pork in her Bolognese sauce (she agrees with Carluccio that this sauce should NEVER be used with spaghetti but only with tagliatelle.

Wikipedia (in a wonderful article with 23 detailed citations) also indicates that Bolognese ragu is made with meat. The person who is thought to have originated the recipe, Pellegrino Artusi, in the his cookbook published in 1891, called for lean vean fillet. However, Wikipedia's article on Bolognese sauce gives a very nice history of the evolution of this recipe. It includes the following from the Italian Academy of Cuisine (which contradicts what one person writes above):

"In 1982 the Italian Academy of Cuisine (Accademia Italiana della Cucina), an organization dedicated to preserving the culinary heritage of Italy, recorded and deposited a recipe for "classic Bolognese ragù" with the Bologna Chamber of Commerce (La Camera di Commercio di Bologna).^[4][5][6] A version of the academy's recipe for American kitchens was also published.^[1] The academy's recipe confines the ingredients to beef from the plate section (cartella di manzo), fresh, unsmoked pancetta (pancetta di maiale distesa), onions, carrot, celery, passata (or tomato purée), meat broth, dry wine (red or white, not sparkling), milk, salt and pepper. The option of adding a small amount of cream at the end of the preparation is recommended." Indeed, I have looked at the Italian wording of the Academy and the person in a post above (or his translator) mistranslates "cartella di manzo" which definitely means beef from a certain section of the animal.

What does all this mean? Although there may not be a debate about the beef (all the authorities I cite above call for it) unless one goes with the "original" recipe which called for veal (proving again that recipes do evolve with time), there is no doubt that just about all authorities agree that Spaghetti Bolognese is a no-no!

Oh dear, more pai bashing. If you don't like this kind of place then simply don't go back there. The OP liked the countryside, well that IS the main reason for going there. Just keep out of the town. And incidentally there's plenty of places that are less than 800 baht, one just needs to look a bit better. But why stay in the town when the countryside is so nice? Why not stay out there?

Pai certainly attracts the moaning farang. Crikey, how some farang just bloody moan and moan and moan about being here. Places like chiang mai and pai, even as they are developing, are magnificent when compared to so much of the world, yet they just have to be moaned about.

Pai is a truly magnificent place with so many guest houses, so many restaurants and eating places, so many drinking places, so many interesting other kinds of places, excellent walking and cycling, magnificent nature opportunities and so much else to commend it. Yet farang who go there, don't like it, just have to moan about their experience and project that into some kind of objective reality.

Keep away from these places if you don't like them. And as for going at the height of the high season when half of bangkok have left their city is asking for problems for the moaners. There again, perhaps it's the best time to go there if one is a moaner because it provides some class moaning material.

1. I went to around 12 places in Pai and the cheapest one was B 800 and was a dump (mattress on the floor; no aircon, although not needed now; no fan; no fridge; no view) and tiny.

2. I would never call Pai a "magnificent place"; bad restaurants (also overpriced), too many visitors; without the beauty of Chiang Mai.

3. For your information, I also visited many other places at almost the same time and found them to be far more charming and inviting than Pai was. I will not name them because I don't want them to turn into Pais.

Be aware that there is a price to pay for using this sort of doorknob cover. Thieves will know immediately that the apartment is empty. They are very obvious even from a distance. While this may stop local workmen from entering using a key, often a quick hard shoulder can force an ordinary door lock and the thief be inside before any neighbor has time to look out their peep-hole.

There is a small travel lock made to secure doors from inside or out.I've used one for years, and it's quiet effective. You can use it inside or out, and although very strong and secure, it's almost invisible when attached outside, hidden behind the doorknob. There are two different types; one uses a key or padlock and works both inside or out, and the other uses only a squeeze 'ratchet' to be used inside only. The longer bar hooks into the door jam latch opening, then close the door and slide the flat plate down the bar sungly against the door and jam, and lock.

Sadly, dedicated thieves and burglars can get through any lock. I've never had a problem with the door nob cover lock.

I agree on La Fontana. Very good food. It used to be owned by Stefano. Sebastiano managed Da Stefano for many years before buying La Fontana after it had been opened for a short time.

IMO, they serve some of the best Italian style pizza in town, but plenty of other nice dishes as well.

Thanks for those insights; the lineage explains the good results!

Sounds great. Thanks for the review but please tell me where the restaurant is.

The address of the restaurant is at the bottom of the review. Their telephone number is also there. Centrally located, near the Sunday walking street. Enjoy!

You can buy a metal lock that covers your door knob and which has a large padlock hanging below it. The whole thing is very heavy and provides you with extra protection; easy to use. You can buy these at almost any of the large stores like Makro, Big C, Lotus etc. for around 300-500 baht. You'll find them where they sell padlocks.

But I'd suggest moving, given the facts you've provided.

This review follows a series of restaurant reviews posted here on Italian restaurants and pizzerias. Some good news for the holidays. This is a good place to eat. I was first introduced to La Fontana by a European friend a few weeks ago. I went back again last night and even though it was a crowded Sunday night (the restaurant is not far from the walking streets) the food was excellent and service exceptional (they've obviously been well trained). Oddly enough, my second visit was prompted by poor service at another Italian place, the newly opened Colleseo, on the walking street: we ordered some pizza there, our order was taken and we were told 15 minutes of waiting later that they had run out of pizza. So off to the nearby La Fontana which might have been a blessing in disguise.

La Fontana is a medium sized, open air type restaurant with about 15 tables. White tablecloths and white cloth napkins. Nicely decorated with some Thai paintings and a painting of what appeared to be the Amalfi coast. The tables are well separated and most on different levels so you have intimacy and privacy. It also means that even when the restaurant is busy, you have a nice, fairly quiet table in a lovely setting. The owner is an Italian, Sebastiano Berardi, and he was present, overlooked the staff, circled around the tables and I saw him supervising the Thais making pizzas.

The first time I went, I had lasagne. Good but not great. A trifle too overcooked so that the noodles were a bit gooey but still with pleasing flavors. The second time I went, even on a busy Sunday night, the food was excellent. You get bread sticks and a dip free as a starter which is a nice touch. A friend and I shared a large Greek salad: it was huge and easily could have fed 3 people. Lots of nice onions, feta cheese, olives and with a superbly made dressing (with mustard base). Excellent value at B 120. We also shared a pizza (parma ham; rocket salad) which had a perfect thin, crisp crust. And lots of parma ham (each single slice had a large piece of parma ham). The price was a reasonable B 220 (this was one of the more expensive options of pizza, there are many) for a size large enough for two. The waitress also provided some extra Parmesan grated cheese (ask for it) and some condiments including hot sauce. My only suggestion (a minor one) would be to also provide a shaker with oregano. This was the best pizza I've had in Chiang Mai. The service was attentive and friendly (our waitress stopped by twice to ask how everything was). The padrone also came by and asked how the food was.

Overall, highly recommended and a tip of the hat to the proprietor who has a place that serves very good Italian cuisine at a reasonable price in a lovely setting with quality service. So far, this place has the best pizza I've eaten in CM. This is also a centrally located restaurant so all in the Chiang Mai area should have an easy time getting there.

Ambiance: 4 stars (out of 5)

Service: 5 stars (out of 5)

Food: 4 stars (out of 5)

Value: 4 stars (out of 5)

La Fontana Italian Restaurant & Pizzeria

39/7-8 Ratchamankha Rd.

Tel. 053-207091

PS. I have no connection with this restaurant, or its owner(s).

Pai changed dramatically over the course of one year. I lived there in 2005 and you could still drive down all the streets with speed because there were no street vendors. After they made that stupid love movie (which I suffered painfully through) I think the government allocated an increased tourism budget and began advertising. The next year it was totally overrun with Bangkok folks and street vendors, which is the state it remains in today. It's a total carnival for suburban city dwellers now and 100% tourism oriented which makes it really uncomfortable to do even simple things.

The weather in winter is great though if you like it cold like me. It's a total shame it can't be enjoyed though anymore...

Good post. Completely agree with this!

I've never really understood the attraction to Pai. Chiang Dao is more scenic, closer, less crowded, cheaper. To my way of thinking it beats Pai in every way yet it's never captured the popularity of Pai .

The recent Thai invasion in Pai has to do with a film saome frieds of my wife made. Oddly enough they own land in Chiang Dao and not Pai. I asked the husband and wife producer/director, knowing what you know now about your films affect on Thai awareness of Pai, would you ever make aq film featuring Chiang Dao? They said NEVER!

I completely agree with this post. While lots of people responding here have said that it is foolish visiting Pai during the holidays, i visited many other parts of Thailand at almost the same time (within a day or so) and saw much nicer places. Pai to me was little more than a dump. Yes, beautiful countryside surrounds it, but the town itself? Way, way over hyped.

Just spent 2 nights and 3 days in Pai. Granted, the countryside around is magnificent: beautiful mountain scenery and clean air.

But the town? Ragged, crowded, terribly expensive (I looked at more than 15 hotels and guesthouses; the cheapest was B 800 a night; some were horrible, just a mattress on the floor, no t.v., no fridge, tiny, paper walls). And the restaurants? Went to a German-Thai restaurant at the beginning of the walking street and had to wait so long, we ended up buying Thai food at the walking street (as did other customers). The German food, when it finally came, looked nothing liked the pictures and was expensive and a small portion. The Thai food never came. Several people walked out because the service was so bad. Finally, tried a large Thai restaurant in the walking street: same result, maybe worse. I saw at least 2 groups walk out (both without paying; a large Thai party did not even touch their food which looked awful).

The only nice thing about Pai, in my opinion, was the walking street. Charming if less handicrafts being sold there and less entertainment than in CM's version. And the traffic coming and going: horrific, with vans passing on mountain curves.

So what exactly is the attraction of this place?

We did it 4 years ago. The driver handled all the paper work. We were booked with a tour fellow there and he had to back out at the last moment. He got a friend to take us. We were in there for three nights. We drove all the way to Monglar on the Chinese border. We spent one night there and then came back. Both coming and going we spent a night each way in Kengtong.

The driver handled all the paper work we just sat outside waiting for him. They had several stops on the way in and out to check the paper work we just sat in the vehicle while the driver did the negotiating. In Monglar all they would take was Chinese money and in Kengtong the hotel insisted on Thai money going in and I got them to accept Burmese money on the way out.

I don't know if they are still in operation now. We were at a hotel travel agency called Monkey Island. It was on the river just before you get to the bridge take the road on the left hand side that goes down to the river and turns left. It has been a long time. I believe it was about a half a kilometer up not sure.

A friend went to Kengtong on the bus and the bus driver handled all the paper work

Good Luck it is beautiful country. One stretch of road about 30 meters was one lane. They were drying coffee beans on the other lane.

Good insights, HelloDolly. I assume you hired a rented car? I was thinking of taking my own and going to Kengtung.

I'll be making a quick visa run to Mae Sai soon. Is it possible to drive into Burma for a few days with a Thai registered car driven by a Thai? Anyone done this before? Recommendations?

thanks!

Lots of info here on visa runs to Mae Sai.

My question: is it possible to do a visa run (for 15 cross border crossing) to the Mae Hong Song area?

Thanks for your input and help.

I've lived in Italy, by the way, and know what good Italian food is.

There lies the problem here. Many of us come from, or have lived in Europe or America where good Italian food is everywhere. But here you are getting food made with locally sourced ingredients. You will never get the real thing here unless you go somewhere that imports everything and you will pay a very high price for it. Good tomato sauce needs San Marzano and Pienolo tomatoes, cheese needs to be Grana Padano, mozzarela di bufala, etc., etc. One Italian restaurant here, mentioned often in this forum, uses pieces of chopped up Thai hot dogs on their "sausage" pizza. Many places use olive oil from Makro or Big C; although imported, not close to the grade used in Europe. But some places do a pretty good job with the local ingredients. You just have to try a few of them and see what works for you.

You will never find something like this here (where I used to go twice a week for years when I lived in Europe).

1. This is less true today than it was in the past. 20 years ago, for instance, it was difficult to find good bread here or any fresh dairy products. All that has pretty much changed.

2. Excellent dried Italian pasta is available readily here in Thailand and it is about the same price as it would be in Europe or America.

3. I agree with you on the cheeses; they ARE much more expensive here (although good cheese from Australia is slightly less than that from Europe). This is also true of wines because of the high taxes imposed on them here.

4. I don't agree with you on the tomato paste. Mica brand (local) is excellent and quite inexpensive.

5. And let's also remember, that some locally grown products (basil, bay leaves, rosemary, nutmeg, pepper, most meats --chicken, pork--and most fish, for instance) are cheaper here than they would be in Europe and so are the rents and electricity and labor.

6. In large part, I don't think it's the resources/ingredients for cooking that are lacking (or so much more expensive that they make Italian food here expensive) I think it is the cooking expertise and ownership. There are some people who have marginal cooking skills who come from abroad and think they can set up a successful restaurant here because no one will notice the difference. They also think they can easily train Thais to do such cooking and sit back and enjoy the profits. Or, they are not really cooks and not trained to be cooks but have a different occupation that they cannot pursue in Thailand; so they think, well, I can cook Italian, or Hungarian or whatever even if I cannot follow my real profession. That too is not easy. There is lots of competition even in the foreign food outlets here (especially Italian, see UG's points on this) and some are good but in my opinion, most are not. The restaurant reviewed here falls in the latter category (not good). Why they are charging such high prices when they are in essentially a shop house on the edge of the city (where rents are not as expensive as in the center of the city) is beyond me. And note it is not just my opinion but that of others who found their prices high and portions on the small side.

7. The olive oil sold in Makro and elsewhere here that is Extra Virgin comes from reputable brands. It is no different quality-wise than extra virgin olive oil sold in Europe or America. In fact, the EU has regulatory agencies to overlook the quality of olive oil and that applies to oil bottled for export. There does exist (especially in Italy) a huge cheating ring that makes obscene profits off of cheap (fraudulent; mixed using low grade oil from N. Africa) olive oil; but that junk is sold everywhere, including in Europe!

8. Some Thai hot dogs/sausages are very good. Many are made by companies with German or Swiss partners and are as good as anything made in Europe. I personally know a Bavarian cook renowned for his homemade sausage who once told me he thought the sausages sold by 7-11 were fantastic.

I am one of those who agrees with you. A visit to this restaurant was supposed to be a treat but didn't really turn out that way. Could you recommend what you consider to be a cheaper and better Italian restaurant so I can check it out next time? Thanks a lot.

To my mind, Stephano's (next to Gecko Books down by the TGate) is the best Italian food I've had yet in Chiang Mai. They have a good 3 course meal for B 350 which is really reasonable (the one I had featured a big salad; a chicken dish for the main course; and real Italian ice cream). It was terrific. My guest and I also shared a starter plate of parma ham and melon that was out of this world (and big enough for 2). Big menu that is far more than the usual pizza and one or two pastas. Nice atmosphere and usually crowded. The same family also owns some other places ("Pasta Palace?"). Also good is Prego (Google it for its location); Thai chef/owner but one who lived and worked in Italy for almost a decade. Rated highly at Tripadvisor. Many people also like "Why Not" but I'm not sold on it yet. But it has a very nice atmosphere; lots of outdoor seats and a nice restaurant inside with their own ices.

If you're in Bangkok, and don't mind paying, then try Zanotti (off Silom Road); in my opinion, the best Italian restaurant in Thailand and better than almost anything in Italy. It is expensive though (B 3,000 or so for 5 courses)! The owner is the head of the Italian-Thai Chamber of Commerce and lots of things are imported.

I've lived in Italy, by the way, and know what good Italian food is.

There lies the problem here. Many of us come from, or have lived in Europe or America where good Italian food is everywhere. But here you are getting food made with locally sourced ingredients. You will never get the real thing here unless you go somewhere that imports everything and you will pay a very high price for it. Good tomato sauce needs San Marzano and Pienolo tomatoes, cheese needs to be Grana Padano, mozzarela di bufala, etc., etc. One Italian restaurant here, mentioned often in this forum, uses pieces of chopped up Thai hot dogs on their "sausage" pizza. Many places use olive oil from Makro or Big C; although imported, not close to the grade used in Europe. But some places do a pretty good job with the local ingredients. You just have to try a few of them and see what works for you.

You will never find something like this here (where I used to go twice a week for years when I lived in Europe).

1. This is less true today than it was in the past. 20 years ago, for instance, it was difficult to find good bread here or any fresh dairy products. All that has pretty much changed.

2. Excellent dried Italian pasta is available readily here in Thailand and it is about the same price as it would be in Europe or America.

3. I agree with you on the cheeses; they ARE much more expensive here (although good cheese from Australia is slightly less than that from Europe). This is also true of wines because of the high taxes imposed on them here.

4. I don't agree with you on the tomato paste. Mica brand (local) is excellent and quite inexpensive.

5. And let's also remember, that some locally grown products (basil, bay leaves, rosemary, nutmeg, pepper, most meats --chicken, pork--and most fish, for instance) are cheaper here than they would be in Europe and so are the rents and electricity and labor.

6. In large part, I don't think it's the resources/ingredients for cooking that are lacking (or so much more expensive that they make Italian food here expensive) I think it is the cooking expertise and ownership. There are some people who have marginal cooking skills who come from abroad and think they can set up a successful restaurant here because no one will notice the difference. They also think they can easily train Thais to do such cooking and sit back and enjoy the profits. Or, they are not really cooks and not trained to be cooks but have a different occupation that they cannot pursue in Thailand; so they think, well, I can cook Italian, or Hungarian or whatever even if I cannot follow my real profession. That too is not easy. There is lots of competition even in the foreign food outlets here (especially Italian, see UG's points on this) and some are good but in my opinion, most are not. The restaurant reviewed here falls in the latter category (not good). Why they are charging such high prices when they are in essentially a shop house on the edge of the city (where rents are not as expensive as in the center of the city) is beyond me. And note it is not just my opinion but that of others who found their prices high and portions on the small side.

7. The olive oil sold in Makro and elsewhere here that is Extra Virgin comes from reputable brands. It is no different quality-wise than extra virgin olive oil sold in Europe or America. In fact, the EU has regulatory agencies to overlook the quality of olive oil and that applies to oil bottled for export. There does exist (especially in Italy) a huge cheating ring that makes obscene profits off of cheap (fraudulent; mixed using low grade oil from N. Africa) olive oil; but that junk is sold everywhere, including in Europe!

8. Some Thai hot dogs/sausages are very good. Many are made by companies with German or Swiss partners and are as good as anything made in Europe. I personally know a Bavarian cook renowned for his homemade sausage who once told me he thought the sausages sold by 7-11 were fantastic.

Location? Are there more than one of these?

A real food critic will make at least 2 trips to a rest. before writing a review to eliminate a off night

Huh?

You paying?

I seem to remember that place, in a shophouse right?

The decor said to me "we spent the absolute minimum time and money making this place an Italian rather than a TV aerial shop." it was utterly bland, and suggested the food would be likewise.

As I said a real food critic, they are usually on someone payroll. Also if I felt that strongly about a place to write about here I would visit it twice and pay for it myself. You broke looking for a free meal

I'm not so sure what you mean by a "real" food critic. If I pinch myself, I find I am real. And I actually did do reviews for 3 years for a publication. I know food and I know restaurants. I've lived in Italy, by the way, and know what good Italian food is.

Many times food critics only visit a place once; they might go back later to see if a place has changed (especially if that place gets positive "word of mouth" from the community; this place seems not to have much of a following and you'll note that lots of people here who have visited it agree with my assessment). I think these kind of reviews are helpful to people in the community especially since we really do not have an English language paper for CM and most of the local publications are taking money from the same businesses they are reviewing!