sonnyJ

There's a stamp collector's shop at the Don Mueang International Airport. Ground floor near the elevators between terminals 1 and 2.

What about the chains of time.

I say, tomorrow never happens, it's all the same xxxxing day.

There's a new publication (April, 2005) by Chris Baker, Pasuk Phongpaichit:

A History of Thailand. ISBN: 0521016479. It should be about the last three centuries, hopefully including more recent history too. Wyatts: Short History is good but ends in 1980's.

Usually these guys write economical stuff about Thailand like, politics, corruption, prostitution and drugs trade, and economics. I have read few of these later books and liked them, very informative works.

..maybe I'm a cynic but in this world freedom don't come from within but from MONEY...

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Thats why I study business, but I will never give out the hope. The world of my dreams. It will be a dream always. But it gives me hope.

Freedom is the greatest gift anybody/thing can give to you.

But actually nobody can give it.

We can give the credit to many beings, but freedom can't be classified.

It comes from within.

What does freedom mean to you?

Maybe I should refrase.

Is there anything the loved Royal Thai Police could do even better? To improve it's efficiency and practices?

OK You got me.

One last time 1155 The tourist police let them act for you!

Cool man.

I asked him that too, but he didn't know.

359 views, 16 votes.

Come on people let's vote!

I don't know whats wrong with you guys. Maybe I just explained things in a difficult way. Every thai I told about this thing thinks it's a sure robbery, it's not a real law anyway. Only on certain areas where the are signs. The policeman wouldn't write me a fine, he wouldn't present his ID to proof he's a police officer, he didn't want to go to the station to clear it out, also he didn't have any authority. Last time I demanded him to give me a ticket he refused, so I just rip my passport of his hand and left. He already wasted 20 minutes of my time. And I could see on his face, he lost. He had no case. Last thing he said,, are you really a student?

OP,

Get real, you threw your butt on the ground. There was a trash can nearby. You're a litterbug. $2000 in NZ, about 500Quid in the UK.

Basically your lazy. And you're a polluter.

Giving your passport, you're in the category for xxxx award.

How many signs are there that say don't litter? Throw your butts in your own lounge room. Another sob story [snip. /meadish].

MP5 Out

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Please try to read the original text again. Kinda missing the point here.

And there are no signs to prohibit littering where I live. Come on man, it's a thai neighborhood. Have you ever seen one? I would be more concearned about fire hazards than hazards of smoking, both leathal but the otherone way faster.

I dont live in a 50,000 baht per month condo.

You have no business to start to insult me. What do you have against me anyway?

If you want to talk about lifestyles, open a new topic. I can join if I wish.

Police in Thailand are like Police anywhere, if you treat them with respect they may cut you a break.

Some problems that Farangs have are all down to the fact that farangs think they are so superior to Thais, including Thai Authority, with that attitude, it's no wonder some Farangs have problems.

If you break laws, expect to get busted, no matter what country you are in, if you are nice to the guy that busts you, you may  have a chance of walking away, if you have a typical farang, ( I am superior to Thai ) attitude and treat the Police bad, you're nicked, same goes for every country.

By the way, you deserved to be fined 2000 baht for littering, it's the law.

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Police is same in Thailand and everywhere: Are you serious? What a joke.

I think you have missed the point of topic completely.

And I paid nothing to this thief. If there's a law that cannot be implemented, there's a problem. The guy was just looking for some extra money. He was treating me bad, he wouldn't even sign me a ticket. He was all buffalocrap man.

For example, if this would be a real law, like murder is illegal right. And there are lot of people breaking this law all the time, smoking and littering follows. Wouldn't it be kinda small propability to accuse farang of this crime? There's lots of locals around, right. If you need more proof you can go see whats going on near central world plaza, or many locations on sukhumvit. And you will find out, that the law doesnt apply to everybody.

I think you should get down from the superiority and stop the generalisations

Friends.  Why do you think that littering is permissible, whether you're in your neighborhood, or not?  I'm with you - don't show them your passport the next time, and you can spend a night in jail.

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I don't consider smoking littering. The problem is elsewhere.

This litter-so-you-get-fined thing could maybe work, if it would be applied everywhere. But it's not.

Actually I dont believe in such kind of forcing to learn approaches,, but well, you never know..

Main thing is that it's ALL about MONEY what the cops do on this matter.

About passports and police or what ever, I'm just trying to create some awareness, that I'm sure many have got already.

Be careful!

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Again, years ago in Canada, driving back from camping, took my friends past our old family house in a town on the way (after a stop at Mcdonalds). We pulled up at the Ferry terminal baout 80 kms later and when we stopped, a guy came and banged on the window. He asked if I liked the town we'd just come from- I replied sure, i used to live there. He then dumped a pile of MCy D's wrappers on me and said "Keep it clean then!". Turns out someone in the back had littered...

Fast fwd to a trip to Isaan country- my friend's GF threw out the plastic and wrappers when finished eating- I stopped the car and said, how would you like it if someone threw that garbage in front of your house? To which she replied "Not my house, bi raos!".

Point being, littering is ignorant. Don't litter, don't pay fine. Nuff said?

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Exactly.

It's the 3 Rs. Reduce Reuse Recycle.

I agree completely. But I'm hooked man. I can't stop smoking.

What can I do? I think it's just unfair to pick me up when there are 100 thais smoking around me.

I also am not getting involved in this one because i have quite a few friends who are Thai policemen

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It's always nice to have few friends from police.

But the topic was not about are they nice guys. It's about how do they do their job. And what are their jobs anyway?

Police protects the society and implements the laws legisted.

Right?

Friends.  Why do you think that littering is permissible, whether you're in your neighborhood, or not?  I'm with you - don't show them your passport the next time, and you can spend a night in jail.

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I don't consider smoking littering. The problem is elsewhere.

This litter-so-you-get-fined thing could maybe work, if it would be applied everywhere. But it's not.

Actually I dont believe in such kind of forcing to learn approaches,, but well, you never know..

Main thing is that it's ALL about MONEY what the cops do on this matter.

About passports and police or what ever, I'm just trying to create some awareness, that I'm sure many have got already.

Be careful!

There are so many things but propably the warm heartedness of the people. The most amazing experience happend to me about three years ago.

I was kicked out from Burma, officials said I had broken some traditional law. Still I'm not quite sure what was my wrong doing.

I had been staying there for few months in a monastery on a religious visa, and was on a few weeks leave. They local agents checked my papers and, since I had a religious visa I was taken to Yangon airport and sent to Bangkok. 20 usd in my pocket. Most of my bags were left in Burma.

First night in Bangkok I somehow ended up in a restaurant on Surawong, opposite PatPong, after one of the vaitresses forced me in. Propably cos I looked kinda funny, wearing a burmese pasoo, kind of a sarong, cos I only got one pair of pants with me. She ended up taking care of me and paying my living for three weeks out of her 300-400 baht/day salary, untill I got my monetary situation fixed and a flight back home. Now she's married and living in Italy. Happily I hope.

Today, around Saphan Khwaai, BKK, I was walking out my home soi heading to 7/11, threw out my cigaret on the soi like everybody does, after I came out, placed my receit and the cap of my drink in the trash can, the officer was waiting for me.

He tried to pull out the trashing fine scheme, and asked if I had a passport. I had it with me, for the first time this year. Usually I never carry it with me. He took it and started to walk away to cross the road to his post, in front of the gold shop in the corner of Pradipat and Pahonyothin. So, I had to follow him.

Over there he said 2,000 baht and pointed out the sign. Over 200 meters away from the place where he spotted me across the road. I told him come on I live here for almost 2 years now. He wasnt interested. Then he shows some old receit of 1000 b and blah, blah. I said write me a ticket and I will pay it later at the police station, I'm busy, I need to go. He wasn't interested.

So I called my thai friend, her mom wanted to talk with him. When she asked his name the guy hanged up. His name tag said Tawii Chetawin. Wouldn't show any ID when I asked for proof.

My friend told that almost everything this guy did was illegal.

In Finland I have learned to have some respect for the police. But this problem was resolved easily. He just kept saying wait here but I just took my passport off his hand and walked away.

My thai friend was wery concearned that don't let him touch you, maybe he'll place some drugs on you. Don't follow him to anyplace where theres nobody to see what's happening. This is how at least some thais see the police. I wouldn't have ever imagined that.

From now on I will never hand on my passport to police again.

It's better to go to the station. Not everybody is croocked there.

Don't get me wrong here. I have some experience of the Thai police doing their job, as I would expect police to do.

But as in my latest example. It's propably close what most of the tourists visiting Thailand will see.

Anyway, I'm sure we farang get the easy way anyway.

QUOTE(Eman @ 2005-06-13 13:23:45)

I know this is a bit off topic, but this picture of a vending machine reminded me...

I can't remember seeing any vending machines in Thailand.

Just curious as to why ?

Vandalism and tampering?

And maybe it's cheaper to hire a sales clerk than to buy a machine.

Thai people would easily figure out a way to cheat those machines.

I know a Thai guy who went to Holland and said that a 10 baht coin worked in the vending machines there. He went with heaps of them and got heaps of cheap stuff. I can't remember how much they were worth, maybe 1 euro??

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I can recall two occasions of using vending machines in Bangkok. These were occupied with a wide variety of soft drinks. Once at the Ramathibodi Hospital at (Rama V ?, not sure), the other at an appartment building Peninsula, soi 15, Rama VI.

Yes. 10 baht coins are almost identical to 2 euro coins and can be used in many older not so high tech vending machines in Europe.

Hey I don’t know all the facts for sure but I see Thailand as having a few problems here as well!

At least I hear in Burma there are no KFCs, Burger Kings and Mc Donalds etc allowed.

I think those types of places and many more are destroying Thailand from the inside out and much more dangerous if you ask me regarding the general health of the population.

Also such things as the cell phone microwave signals and other toxic transmitters (not to mention all the toxic sprays and poisons which Thais liberally cover this country with day in and day out) which are blasting us all, 24 /7, theses are quite upsetting to me too.

Maybe worse for us and Thailand than Hitler’s projects which only killed 4-5 million I was informed.

So what about you, are you supporting such places and projects here in Thailand, directly or indirectly?

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Sure, there's many problems in Thailand.

But you go to far, bunch of buffalo crap to me.

I'm sounding like the advice in the tour guide, "Let's Go Thailand" but - you can't travel that much in Mayanmar without contributing a substantial amount of your own money to one of the most despotic governments in the world.  Would you have visited Germany in 1939 if you'd known what the Nazis were doing, and that your money went to them?  That's almost a fair analogy.

Up to you.

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You can travel a lot and cheap, there's many restricted zones which you will need a permition and a gov. guide, thats a different story and more expensive.

(This is 2002).

Great scenery on mountains in Shan states.

Have a great time.

Your thinking makes lots of sense and it's interesting to read about. Then some don't. You have many historical references. What is your source and reference? Please quote that atleast.

Do you think people will buy your rewriting of history just like that???

In the contects you dont make much sense. Not a single stated date?

We all have right for opinions. And that's great, but lets not call opinions stated history.

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Much greater detail is available in my published books (available through Asia Books, DK Books etc and a number of larger independant stores depending on where you live).

They contain full date and bibliographical data, plus lists of source documents and their original languages and countries of origin. If you wish to know more detail, then please put your hand in your wallet and buy the books - I did not add academic style footnote cross references to my post, as it is inappropriate for an Internet forum, I attempted to use easy to follow logic - sorry if it leaves you unconvinced and that you will have to buy something (instead of getting it free) in order to satisfy your curiosity.

In general, my sources are of two type - the modern writings of distinguished academics (as opposed to the TAT pulp fiction promulgated and repeated daily), and the medieval and earlier chronicles written in a variety of languages and locations. The Kunming Institute of Ethnic Minority Studies has been invaluable to me in researching the inter-relationships between the Dtai, Tai, and Syam peoples of past and present - you may want to visit them sometime as their archives are vast and the staff speak excellent English. Additionally, Sri Lankan temple chronicles have a lot of information about pre-13th Century AD "Thailand".

For contextual clarification .....

Mon Dvaravati Culture of the Siamese central plains was supplanted around 600-700 AD by emergent cultures and conquered by Angkor Khmers during the 9th & 10th centuries

Angkor sprang from the former Chenla (Southern tip of modern Laos) to supplant the former Fonan kingdom (existed 1st - 6th C AD) but it was not until Suriyavaraman II took control in 802AD that Angkor extended its realm as far as the 3 Pagodas Pass and north to the SipSongPanNa of Yunnan, although north of Chiang Saen was more likely to have been tributary states rather than conquered lands.

NanChao (the southern Prince) gave way to Nanchao (the southern princedom) with Beijing's blessing around the 8th C AD (I don't have dates to hand as I type this) and the repeated Chinese "Expeditions of Authority" led to Nanchao citizens migrating west and south - the Dtai began entering upper Thailand and from this sprang kingdoms like Phayao (which together with Sukhothai allied with Mengrai's LanNa in the 1280's AD to "resist the Mongols")

By the early 1200s, Angkor was suffering internal strifes and losing its grip on frontier provinces. This allowed the revolt in Sukhothai that led to Ramkhamhaeng's grandfather establishing himself as king. The Chiang Saen and Ngoern Yang regions of extreme upper modern Thailand follwed and being cut off from Angkor, regions north of them followed suit until the middle Mekhong area was a mass of independant village and township kingdoms. They were united under Mengrai of LanNa during his campaigns beginning in the 1250s through to the 1280s by which time he had established his capital in the former Mon-Khmer location of Wieng Kum Kam. from WKK he launched his Dtai and Tai unifying expeditions into Martaban, Pegu, Shan States, SipSongPanNa, Kentung, LanChang (Louang Phrabang), VienChang (Vientiane) and formed his alliance with Sukhothai and Nandapuri (Nan). He had already received allegiance from the Vietnamese Dtai in the Black and Red River valleys while still at Chiang Rai in the previous decade.

It was during this time that the Mongols claimed victory over Pagan, but modern theories are that the Syam-Shan actually carried out the defeat.

By 1400 AD, the alliance had broken apart and the Burmans (note - BurmaNs not Burmese) had been ousted from Ava / Mandalay regions by the Shan who now had a king on the throne in Pegu (Dtai-Tai-Syamese royalty once again) instead of a Mon Monarch as previously. Sukhothai was warring regularly with LanNa - usually allied to would-be usurpers from Chiang Rai, and Ayutthaya was ascendant but embroiled with quelling Khmer resurgence in the east, as well as pacifying (but conquering) the Malay Sultanates (nothing's changed there). It was also during this period that large numbers of Lao were brought into Issaan, and large numbers of Chinese into LanNa to expand the OTOP principle established by Mengrai as an extension of the former Mon system of specialised villages. Thus Ming porcelain fragments are found at most archaeological sites in the north.

...... best stop here before I turn this into a new book

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Gaz Chiangmai, we may agree with somethings but not all, like about the history science.

Please reveal your name so we can buy the books. And the places of publishing.

I dont intend to do research on history of Thailand, just to find good publications on the matter. Some Wyatt's books are familiar to me. What else would you suggest?

Ah......does this come under the heading of a "Thailand" massage...

......or a "Siamese" massage?

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เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่วให้หลิ่วตาตาม

Enter the town squinting causes you to squint afterwards

What does it actually mean?

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You can't literally translate it as it's sort of a fable. More like = if you go somewhere you have to do as the local people there do. If they squint you squint.

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People in Thailand make sense after all. When u go to Rome do as the romans do. What about when u go to Burma? Well, maybe u dont go to Burma. Anyway...

TRT main agenda, remove poverty, on the second term now. That's khii khwaai to me. What do they do? Something like this. Name of the country will make all the difference. C'mon... I don't want to be a racist, but this government just makes me phuke.

Too many quotes from previous posters I'd like to use, therefore I'll just drop the relevant references into the following -

The primary reason given for the post-WW2 name change to Thailand was that "Siam" was a name imposed by foreigners.  The Siamese capital of KrungThep, as a successor to Ayutthaya, reinforced this in the eyes of foreigners as the kingdom of Ayutthaya no longer technically existed.  Following the imposed rule of WW2 Japan, the kingdom needed a new purpose of identity, and a unifying rally-call, thus was the name change justified by the government.

When Ayutthaya, the city, capital, and kingdom existed, the central plains kingdom was called Ayutthaya by its citzens, and not Siam - the name used by foreigners.  At the same period, other portions of modern Thailand were seperate and independant kingdoms - LanNa (suffering heavily from Burmese occupation), LanChang, SipSongPanNa (formerly part of LanNa) and the southern Sultanates to name a few.

Prior to the Dtai arriving through the northern valleys, the Souvannaphoum region was a mixture of Mon, Malay, Lawa and other ethnicities each ruling independently of the other (this was also pre-Khmer dominance).  Note the spelling "Dtai" - it is the correct Anglo-phonetic spelling for the "Southerners" who came out of South West China during the late 1st Millennium AD.  They were the forerunners to the more common spelling of Tai, who were an admixture of northern Thai ethnic groups - Lawa, Wa Daeng, Mrabri, Lao, Lolo, Akha/Hani, Shan, Chinese etc but with the distinct languages and cultures we now refer to as the Thai and Laos Hill Tribes.

The first use of the name Syam (See-am) was by the Han Chinese, in the early centuries AD, referring to a dark skinned people in west Yunnan who lived "beyond the mountain pass" = Syam in Chinese and it is generally believed they are what are now referred to as the Shan, and were the enemies of early NanChao and later Nanchao (mid-word capitalisation denotes word separation prior to transliteration).  Angkor records talk of units of Syam-Kok in their armies (Chiang Rai Dtai?)

Interestingly, Megrai was Lawa-Dtai as the result of marriage between a Lawa King and a Shan princess from Kentung.  The first king of Ayutthaya was also Dtai.

The indegenes of the period (within modern Thailand's boundaries) were not fierce enough to drive out the Khmer without ingress of politically and militarily more capable influences, and as during the Mon Dvaravati period, it took outsiders to command and co-ordinate the locals into an effective population capable of comminities larger than village muangs.  This may explain why Sukhothai lasted such a short period - the early kings were Mon/Khmer-Siamese without Dtai blood.  Additionally it helps to explain the rapid collapse of early Tai-Siamese kingdoms in the north - Nan, Phayao, Mae Hong Son, Tak etc.  They were not aggressive enough to resist the incomers and fell to Mengrai's LanNa very quickly.

Anyways .... the central plains politicoes have generally disliked the Siam/Syam name as it reminded them that they were the indigenous underdogs to invading Sino-Dtais for the golden era of the lands of the current kingdom ....

- When LanNa controlled a crescent from Assam (NE India) through the Shan States to Northern Thailand and down to the Martaban coast, and from the north through Laos to the Vietnamese Black & Red River valleys.

- When Ayutthaya (with its Dtai royal line) controlled the central plains, the Malay peninsula, Issaan and much of Kampuchia (new name after fall of Angkor but pre-Kampuchea name).

Thus it is that in Thailand, we've had governments of the last 60 years ordering the destruction of all pre-Rama V manuscripts and chronicles, a Thai Rak Thai government ordering the rewriting of school history books to play down Burmese aggression towards Ayutthaya and her successors, Nationalism programmes to "bond and unify" the people, and a constant sniping at the integrity of farangs and their suitability as residents of the kingdom (we like accurate history texts and research from other countries records as well).  There are many parallels in history, and many people compare to Germany in the late twenties and early thirties of the last century, as well as to other more recent examples such as Saddam's Iraq or Communist Vietnam and North Korea.

It is best to regard this thread's topic as a growing pain of a "teenage" nation - one that they will grow out of, before recognising that the truth will always out, and that truthful history attracts more tourism than a fabricated one.  In the end, it will be the tourism dollar that decides the course of action in the modification or preservation of this kingdom's recordings of the past.

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Your thinking makes lots of sense and it's interesting to read about. Then some don't. You have many historical references. What is your source and reference? Please quote that atleast.

Do you think people will buy your rewriting of history just like that???

In the contects you dont make much sense. Not a single stated date?

We all have right for opinions. And that's great, but lets not call opinions stated history.

Thailland means the "Land of Thai people".

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it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

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Like **** it does. Find me a credible source for "Thai" meaning "free", without refering to that bizarre factoid. Sometimes I think they just invent bits of historical translation so they can have a laugh at foreigners.

"Thai" is the same word as the linguistic language group, "Tai". It's spelt with a H for the same reason as "Thanon" and every other Thai word beginning with a "proper" T sound. It's correctly pronounced "Tailand". It's a spelling mistake. Another good reason to change it back to Siam...

While we're at it, Charoen Krung doesn't mean New Road.

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From the New Model Thai English dictionary compiled by So Sethaputra.....

ไทย Free, Freedom loving, pertaining to Thailand or the Thai, the Thai language เป็นไทยแก่ตัว to be free, independant.

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On my understanding, thai people คนไทย, khonthai.

Freedom, n., ไท, tai, or อิสรภาพ, itsarapaap also independence, n.

Independence of a country, n. เอกราช, eekgaraat.

Free or liberal, adj. เป็นอิสระ, bpenitsara.

Spelling from eng-thai-eng dic. by Paiboon Publishing.

Spelling is different, so the word is different. It seems to be a word play with land of free and land of thai. Same pronounciation, different spelling.

Linguistics in the western world defines a basic language family, Tai or Tai-Kadai or Kam-Tai. Largest spoken languages of this family are Thai, Lao, Zhuang, Shan, Lanna, Red-Tai, Black-Tai, etc. There are also minority groups living in SE-Asia called Tai, Black Tai, etc. They are not Thai people in etnical sense, even they would live in Thailand.

By the way, Finland is also known as Suomi, at least by the finnish people, in our language. Should we change that to be international? It could be confused with a minority group of northern Finland though, the Saami.

This is all very interesting but I think Thai government should use their time on some more important things like education for the people.

Anyway I woted for Siyam. It sounds cool, but it could result with a confusion with siamese cats....

Hot media story right now:

M.L. Panadda is also the head of Prince Damrong Rajanuparp Museum and Library, where Mrs. Uraiwan and the senior officials visited yesterday.

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

--TNA 2005-05-14

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What about Burma and Myanmar, maybe she just forgot??