MrWorldwide

FunFon, let a male teacher from PI hear you refer to him as a 'Filipina'. Please.

neversure, the 'scared of their shadows' bit is wearing seriously thin - especially after you posted that graph (at least twice by my count) to show us all that there are more gun-related deaths in Thailand than Ecuador which, of course, is supposed to show us how much more dangerous the Thailand is than Ecuador. For all the 'road carnage' you allude to - and I dont deny that Thailand's roads are dangerous - how many Farang casualties do you personally know of ? Expecting us to believe that the roads in South America are somehow magically 'safe' boggles the mind when we both know that the road toll is an ongoing problem in almost every developed country on earth.

All of that is irrelevant when it comes to the fact that you dont seem to be willing to practise what you preach. If Ecuador is so magnificent, why havent you moved there years ago ?

Originally, there were four main gold shops on the 'Golden Road': Seng Heng Li, Hua Seng Heng, Tung Jin Aeng and Tang To Kang . Now there are more than 130 gold shops with new ones starting up continually on both sides of the road. Most shops are members of the Gold Merchants Association. Gold products here are of high standard and quality; many are hand-made and of beautiful intricacy.

2 shops where you will never be cheated are:

Hua Seng Heng - to find your way to this shop print out this map, and give it to the taxi driver.

Tang To Kang - the oldest gold shop in Bangkok. It was founded by Tohkang Saetang, a Chinese immigrant, in the 1880s. It was the only gold shop in the Sampheng areas during the reign of Rama VI to be granted a royal appointment to use the Garuda emblem in 1921.

The shop has a high reputation for quality and craftsmanship and will repurchase any piece for not more than 1% lower than the prevailing market price of gold. Some shops maintain a margin of up to 5% on repurchased items.

This shop is to shortly start franchising its business. It should be noted that at the moment there is only one shop and other shops using the Tang To Kang name are doing so illegally.

The best way to get to Yaowarat to take the subway to Hualampong and then get a taxi to Yaowarat (pronounced Yaowaraat). A motorcyle is faster but more dangerous.

You can have jewelry custom made for you. The cost will depend very much on your bargaining skills and the amount of work involved.

Virtually all the gold shops in Thailand are Chinese owned. To find traditional Thai gold designs, you will have to go to the town of Petchburi. One visitor to this site writes: "If your looking for high quality hand made gold, beautiful workmanship, some pieces with enameling, or even dragon bracelets go to Petchaburi. Lots of shops near the market. Well known to Thais, who come shopping here on the weekends from Bangkok. Jae Ju 1 & 2 are my personal favorite shops."

http://gold.yabz.com/where_to_buy_gold.htm

I've only ever seen Yaowarat Road when gold was in high demand, and both of those shops resembled scenes from Slumdog Millionaire. Have no idea what they are like in the current market, but I would choose one of those two over the dodgy gold shops I've seen in other parts of BKK.

Yes, i have spent that kind of money myself, and more, but it is not only on myself, i.e lots went on gogo-girls,

and it is optional.

wrt meatballs: man i thought i had tuff luck in life

Forceps delivery ?

Interesting that not *one* of the rants I've read here re the baht mentioned the importance of the THB-JPY relationship - not one - even if the 'make exports more competitive' line seems like classic spin doctor material. It may just be that one or two of the people running the show in Thailand actually did something at Harvard other than lie on the lawn dreaming of fat Wall St bonuses. Or posting page-long rants on internet forums ....

Thailand is just not cheap anymore. Accommodation? It's only cheap because it's low quality and/or really small. Nothing is cheap here anymore.

Also, I just checked expatistan & numbeo and the costs are about the same now. The days of cheap Thailand are finished. This place is downright expensive.

Then why the hell are you here on a board that is dedicated to life in Thailand ? I could argue much the same as you have for Malaysia and Indonesia (that goes double for Jakarta and KL), but what does that do to my retirement dream in 2014 ? Do I, lemming-like, rush off to Cambo only to find that prices are being pushed up by a sudden intake of Farang from Nakhon Nowhere ?

When you do find your 'Utopia' - whether its Burma (!) or Belize - my sincere advice is not to broadcast it to the rest of the world. As soon as they arrive, you can kiss that paradise goodbye. If anything, Thailand is a victim of its own success - if you want cheap, you need to find a backwater.

Summary - get on a plane, do it now, and stop bitching. Absolutely nothing will change simply because Thailand no longer suits some Farang who want cheap beer / food / women.

Where does the 'middle class' start in Thailand ? My guess is that it's somewhere around the 100K baht combined household income per month - before dismissing that figure, feel free to provide your own. It's not that long ago that 100K per month was considered quite a good expat salary in BKK - again, feel free to laugh, but that figure was routinely thrown around on another board in 2002. You could double that now and some would still mock you - seems that BKK is full of expat zillionaires !

Yes, I know there are Western-style billionaires in Bangkok - I read the same lists you do - but for the 'average' Thai 100K a month must seem like a complete fantasy. Happy to hear otherwise.

(btw, I consider anyone who can afford to buy a BMW outright in Thailand 'rich' - if that is where your middle-class starts, then clearly 100K just isnt going to cut it ...)

No way do the middle class earn 100k per month.. I have 2 Teachers as my neighbours and their combined salary wont be anymore than 60k..

I just don't see anyone who relies on a government pay packet in Thailand as 'middle class', (other than politicians and top-level bureaucrats) - its one of the reasons there is so much corruption. By my definition of 'middle-class', we are talking management in private companies, doctors and folk with their own businesses - a very large chunk of Bangkok would fit into the group we term the 'working poor' in Australia, and that's based purely on how little disposable income one would have on 20K a month in a city like BKK. Even assuming 4K rent, its a pittance when you look at the cost of living in that city. Thais survive courtesy of the extended family and their ability to share : how many Farang will split a 120-baht meal 3 ways ? Private schools and universities pay teachers more, and married teachers in that market could well be pulling in that 100K combined figure, particularly if they have private students in addition to their monthly paypacket.

If the figure isn't 100K, its very close. Middle class families in most countries have a motor vehicle and, at the very least, some prospect of owning their own home : increasingly tough in cities like Sydney, but its one of the characteristics of the group I consider 'middle class'. I dont know that BKK needs too many more cars (!), but I'm sure its high on the 'want list' - you dont make the payments on a car on 30K a month income.

Not sure what parts of the thread you're referring to, my interpretation scanning the past few pages of this one seems to show a consensus that people are far more in favor of advocating staying than leaving.

Not sure what parts of the thread I'm referring to ? How about neversure and his 'move to South America - it rocks !' buddies ? How about people recommending countries where kidnapping&ransom are considered valid career choices ? Give me a freaking break - you are reading what you want to read.

Everybody has a reason for staying or leaving. Are you saying we should just hear the ones who wants to stay and think this is a paradise on earth or do you think everybody has a right to express their opinions?

I'd be considerably more interested in said opinions if they were actually being dispensed from Colombia / Brazil / Ecuador - its the equivalent of me telling TVers they should go and live in Malaysia or Indonesia when my only experience of those countries is as a part-timer. Telling people that Colombia is now 'safe' takes the cake - it's the equivalent of me telling people that nothing bad has ever happened to me in Jakarta, therefore I don't expect anything bad will happen to them. There are opinions and there is life experience - I'll go with the folks who have actually lived in a given location for at least a year before telling us what a paradise it is. We expect no less of someone reporting from Nakhon Nowhere, but suddenly its possible to be an expert on South America without living there ?

Not sure what parts of the thread you're referring to, my interpretation scanning the past few pages of this one seems to show a consensus that people are far more in favor of advocating staying than leaving.

Not sure what parts of the thread I'm referring to ? How about neversure and his 'move to South America - it rocks !' buddies ? How about people recommending countries where kidnapping&ransom are considered valid career choices ? Give me a freaking break - you are reading what you want to read.

Would those who are so hellbent on convincing others to leave Thailand please get on a plane and put your money where your big mouths are ? Talk is cheaper than anything else discussed in this thread, and seemingly in great abundance. Time to put up or shut up.

mccw, I just dont see how that is 'good' ? A run on deposits will inevitably mean those banks collapse - in some cases, probably an inevitability, but I'm not sure that could be considered 'good' ....

No need to throw in the towel - short of oil supplies completely drying up, I expect that I'll always be able to put myself within minibus-range of the Thai border !

Wanna live a lot cheaper in Thailand? Then get out of BKK, Chiang Mai, Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui and all other big cities and tourist places, and get out into the countryside. Even so ... Thailand is still a bargain when compared to USA, Oz/NZ, Europe. Yeah there are places significantly cheaper than Thailand but you don't generally get the same quality of life.

What I find amusing is all the Thai bashers on TV who constantly complain about Thais, Thai culture, and the prices .... and yet still freely choose to be here. I'm guessing that these people would bitch and be unhappy where ever they are, so it's not really Thailand they're complaining about ... it's themselves and their life they really hate.

Yep - Naam, myself and a few others have made exactly that point in several threads. Might as well run headlong at brick walls for all the good it will do.

The OP was not comparing living here with the UK but asking where else in Thailand is cheaper or cheapest to live. The pound is virtually at an all time low. Rent and property has gone up. So whete in Thailand can you still get a good deal fun place and no Smog!!

That depends on your definition of a 'fun place'. I'm told Saphan Kwai is *much* cheaper than the Farang bar areas - both in terms of drinks and company - but nothing I've read about the place has ever motivated me to go there. Also not a fan of hanging out in dark karaoke bars drinking Thai whiskey with an almost 100% Thai crowd, but I could definitely save some serious cash by doing exactly that - even in a tourist trap like Hua Hin. Most Thais simply wont - and in many cases, can't - pay the prices we pay.

Where does the 'middle class' start in Thailand ? My guess is that it's somewhere around the 100K baht combined household income per month - before dismissing that figure, feel free to provide your own. It's not that long ago that 100K per month was considered quite a good expat salary in BKK - again, feel free to laugh, but that figure was routinely thrown around on another board in 2002. You could double that now and some would still mock you - seems that BKK is full of expat zillionaires !

Yes, I know there are Western-style billionaires in Bangkok - I read the same lists you do - but for the 'average' Thai 100K a month must seem like a complete fantasy. Happy to hear otherwise.

(btw, I consider anyone who can afford to buy a BMW outright in Thailand 'rich' - if that is where your middle-class starts, then clearly 100K just isnt going to cut it ...)

Ask anyone in the tourism industry here in Oz what a strong currency has done to their business .... the difference is that we were an expensive destination before our dollar shot up above parity with the USD - Thailand was much cheaper. I don't blame anyone in Asia or Eastern Russia for choosing Thailand over Oz - from the airfare to hotels to food, it's so much cheaper. I lived in Cairns for 8 months in 2008 and even back then tourism operators were constantly bitching about the drop in tourism numbers : I just cant imagine why any sane Japanese family would choose Cairns over Guam or Phuket / Langkawi / Singapore unless they had a burning desire to see a coral reef and go to a small casino. Big woop.

For those wondering why it's so much cheaper for many things in the US, it's because you have giant corporations like Wal-Mart who hold a gun to their suppliers heads and tell them 'Right, THIS is the price, and this is the quantity, and if you don't like it we'll go to the next guy'. How many suppliers can afford to lose a contract like that ? I could rant about Wal-Mart's longterm impact on small communities, but we have our own monopolies here - suffice to say that anytime a retailer can dictate terms, your checkout price has to be lower. If it isn't, they risk losing your custom to their competitors - I wouldn't drive/fly to another state to buy a car, but I expect that some here would.

I dont know how that works with a Carrefour/Tesco in Thailand, but its obvious that the costs of importing 'Corn Flakes' or whatever will be reflected in the final product - I don't think they even grow corn or wheat in Thailand - anyone ? Someone told me they have dairy cattle in Isaan (Khon Kaen ?), but I've always thought the milk in Thailand tastes different to Oz - ours is much better. Given that I need both ingredients for a 'cereal', I'm better off eating what the locals eat ....

I was referring to somtampet's earlier post re lady drinks - nothing to get your knickers in a twist over.

Obviously, that should have read 'Queens Park' - apologies for ruining your day.

Disagree - I absolutely want the Australian dollar to drop back to parity with the USD. We lose jobs every time one of your exporters goes down the gurgler courtesy of the strong Aussie dollar, and for what ? So a few tourists can buy more fake Prada bags in Kuta and MBK ? For a 'success story', plenty of people in Oz are hurting ATM, and a lot of it is courtesy of our exchange rate. Anyone here who is doing cartwheels at the prospect of it going higher needs to remember the 80s in Oz, the first time we had a million unemployed - things were so bad I joined the Army. Unless they reinstate 'Dad's Army', I wont have that option this time around

I am going to have to cut down on the bangers and mash.

'Bangers', eh ? I think the politically correct term is 'whores'.

Again, I've seen so many graphs over the last 3 weeks that I'm beginning to wonder when I started that economics course - and whether I can get my tuition fees back ....

A bar owner on Soi 22 once told me he is very happy to see people drinking Coke, as his profit on soft drinks is much higher than what he makes on alcohol. I just dont know too many guys who

- drink 5 cokes,ring the bell, buy the entire bar a round of drinks

- order pizza, have another 5 cokes, get into a loud argument with some guy trying to play pool

- hand the pizza delivery guy a 200-baht tip, demolish said pizza while downing another 5 cokes

- barfine 2 'girls', much to the delight of others in the bar, particularly the aforementioned pool player

- end the evening slumped on the floor outside his apartment with chunks of pizza sprayed all over his shirt and jeans

I'm guessing that Kings Park wasnt built on the back of soft drink sales

I could handle living in Rayong for 5000 baht a month rent - Nakhon Nowhere would be a much tougher call. There is a point where the distance between my posterior and the bright lights really gets me down, and I found that point in Chumphon. The thought of living in the north-eastern equivalent would have me climbing the walls.

Ecuador ?

http://www.ecuador-travel.net/information.safety.htm

Guayaquil
major port and biggest city in Ecuador with more than 2 million inhabitants.

Guayaquil has a serious crime problem with violent crimes, like assault with weapons and also rape and murder are not uncommon. There exist also lots of petty crimes, like car robbery, pick-pocketing, break and entering and so on. Because of the crime increases, a few years ago it was put under state of emergency with military checks and curfew but those measures were lifted later on without much results. Avoid the poor areas of the city like El Guasmo completely and be watchful in the rest of the city.

The same with lesser degrees also applies to other bigger towns of the coast, like Manta, Esmeraldas, Babahoyo, Santo Domingo, Machala and others.

Quito
second biggest city and capital of Ecuador.

not as bad as Guayaquil but nevertheless robbery, pick pocketing, etc and even violent crimes are on the increase.

Old Colonial Center
is a part of the city, where poor people live. Avoid the center at night and in the daytime, watch out for pickpockets. If possible take as little as possible with you. If you take a backpack, carry it in front of you. Keep cameras in your hand and not hanging around your neck. Watch that you will not find yourself in crowds as that often is an opportunity for pickpockets.

Modern City Center (Mariscal area)
this area is dangerous late at night. Do not walk alone or in small groups but take a taxi if you have to get somewhere. Beware of drug dealers and do not buy from them. In the country exist harsh penalties for possession of drugs, even in small amounts (few years in crowded and not very comfortable jails). In the last years also there were violent robberies in popular bars of the area. Masked men with guns entered the nightspots and robbed customers and owners of all their belongings.

Trole Bus and Public City Transport
especially on the Trole Bus system there are pickpockets operating. Always keep your hand on your money and other documents and do not let yourself get distracted.

Traveling by Long Distance Buses

When traveling long-distance, do not get the cheapest buses but pay a dollar or two more for your own personal safety. Apart from being more comfortable, the more important things are that the more expensive buses are in better mechanical conditions and the drivers are better trained in conducting. Bus accidents are common due to bad and reckless driving and to the bad mechanical condition of especially older buses (faulty brakes, etc..)

At the bus terminals, always keep an eye on your belongings. Do not let yourself get distracted by anyone as that is often a ruse to snag your bags. Make sure that your bags will be stored inside the bus compartments and not on the roof.

Inside the bus keep an eye on your smaller belongings. Do not leave bags up on the rack or below your seats. Keep everything on your lap.

Special Warnings

Armed Robbery - Do not hike alone or in small groups in certain regions

This is one of the most unfortunate aspect of the rising crime in Ecuador as hikers sometimes get robbed at gunpoint in the middle of seemingly nowhere with even cases of rapes of women. The regions most dangerous for that are the ones around Otavalo, Lagunas Mojanda and Cuicocha and around Quito, especially the Pichincha area. There are also reports about assaults in the Chimborazo area. It is very difficult to predict what area to avoid as the criminals seem to move around and concentrate at certain regions for a period of time. So be aware that it can happen anywhere. Do not expect any help from police as in those areas there are not any.

Kidnapping - Northern Amazon region bordering Colombia

This region is becoming now more problematic in terms of your personal safety. With the introduction of the 1.4 billion US sponsored Colombia Drug Plan, Putumayo, the Colombian province just north of Ecuador became one of the main targets of the eradication of coca plants. Putumayo is also becoming more and more a battleground between leftist FARC guerrillas, rightwing paramilitary units and regular Colombian military forces. All this has a spillover effect into Ecuador. FARC guerrillas and paramilitary fighters are using this part of the Ecuadorian Amazon basin since years as safe heavens and bases. Lago Agrio, also called Nueva Loja, the main town in the area is a major supply center for those forces. The first signs of safety problems were the kidnapping of mainly Canadian oil workers and later another 10 people, involved in the oil business got kidnapped. Some tourists followed later. Kidnapping is a huge business in Colombia and also has its hold in Ecuador. So be advised that those problems exist in this area along the Colombian border if you have the intention of visiting Lago Agrio and Cuyabeno National Park.

For a first-hand experience of a armed robbery in Cuyabeno click to forum.robbery.

Note: Those problems as described above are becoming now reality in other border areas of the country as well. Kidnapping was reported from Carchi province in the mountains and Esmeraldas on the coastal western side