RubberSideDown

Yes, you should definitely have checked before taking your bike back, but that's incredibly gross incompetence from a tire shop, even for LOS- I'd make sure I talked to the manager or owner.

^^

I want performance combined with reliability- I want my bike to start every time, I don't want to hear new, worrying noises at regular intervals, and I want everything to line up and run perfectly from the factory, especially if I'm spending about twice (in LOS) what the bike costs in other countries.

Unless it's a classic or a highly-modified machine (like a race bike), I don't think there's any 'cool factor' in hoping your bike holds together.

You mentioned price not being a big factor- I would probably try to come up with the additional money for the 899 Panigale if I wanted Italian exotica (the one I saw at sat on looked great).

^

I understand your point, but anyone who buys something other than a mid-sized standard bike is going with their 'heart'- I didn't pick my bike for its practicality, and it sure isn't 'mainstream' or 'common'.

I think Kawasaki sells more bikes because they offer way more value in terms of quality and performance than other brands (though Honda is coming out with some cool stuff as well, but they need to do a bit more to catch up- the restricted CBR1000RR isn't enough).

I don't like the idea of 'issues' in terms of negatives that mean potential problems- the changes I made to my bike (exhaust, ECU flash, etc) weren't because they represented possible future faults- the stock hardware was up to the job, but I wanted to drop weight and add power. When it comes to being 'better', it's more than perception - reliability isn't something in the eye of the beholder. I'm basing this on what I saw and not on actual experience, of course, but I have a decent eye, and I was just underwhelmed by what I saw as it seemed to be not up-to-par as far as fit-and-finish were concerned.

I was a bit disappointed by what Benelli had to show me- if I were to go Italian, I think I'd have to buy a Ducati (I looked at the Panigale but I couldn't get comfortable on it). Maybe what I saw at the Expo were pre-production units and the quality has improved.

Best of luck with your bike, though- hopefully you won't have any of the issues you might be expecting.

^

That post was to show the visual difference- for the price disparity between those two models, I would hope the Benelli would offer something more.

I wouldn't buy a Benelli due to the fit-and-finish I had the chance to see first-hand- if you want to compare bikes closer in price, would you buy a Benelli 899 for 550K or a Z1000 for 600K? I'd take the Kawi in a heartbeat (in fact I did buy a Kawi, though not the Z1000).

^

Yup- 375K- typo on my part.

The reason I went to the show was to see the BMW bikes, and I was disappointed as well. I went to Barcelona Motors right after, and they happened to have the HP4 on the floor, which (judging from your experience) was pretty lucky.

Not the greatest pic, but it looked brand new- I don't think it was a customer's bike:

Who cares about trains?

When I was at the Bike Show I took a really close look at the Benelli display- I saw poor fit-and-finish and the beginnings of rust spots at exhaust system welds- the Kawasaki display was a night-and-day difference- if that was an example of their best available craftsmanship (everybody wants to put out their best at a show), I was unimpressed.

499K and it didn't look nicely put together at all:

image.jpg

275K and it looked fantastic:

image.jpg

The Benelli Tre in the picture is manufactured at the Benelli factory in Italy.

Then I would say Benelli has some problems if that's the best they can manage from Italy. Their other bikes on display were of similar quality- 499K for the bike in the pic seemed extremely excessive considering the other bikes (from other manufacturers) in the same price ballpark.

Who cares about trains?

When I was at the Bike Show I took a really close look at the Benelli display- I saw poor fit-and-finish and the beginnings of rust spots at exhaust system welds- the Kawasaki display was a night-and-day difference- if that was an example of their best available craftsmanship (everybody wants to put out their best at a show), I was unimpressed.

499K and it didn't look nicely put together at all:

275K and it looked fantastic:

This is something I would look hard at if I were buying high end here.

What is the level of after sale competency

RSD: how does it look for BMW bikes here in Thailand?

I talked with their head motorcycle tech who was supposed to have attended overseas training sessions- I came prepared with some questions (that I already knew the answers to) regarding technical aspects specific to the bike I want- I got satisfactory answers, which made me feel a bit better about buying a bike that relies so heavily on electronics, but I can only speak as to their words, not their actions.

Bottom line is that I believe there's at least one guy in town who knows his stuff as far as BMW is concerned. Note that there was a single Thai Kawasaki tech (at least when I was getting my bike set up in July) who had attended the training session for the ZX-14R in Japan, and he was the only one who really knew the bike, and fortunately the dealership persuaded him to take a look at it before delivering it (and it did arrive in perfect condition)- even if a model is available through the authorized manufacturer in LOS, if there aren't too many of them around, it won't be easy to find someone familiar with it, as opposed to a more popular model that they probably see several times per week.

A little more info- Consumer Reports didn't get enough of a sample size to include Yamaha or Triumph, but the numbers they did get suggested that Yamaha was in line with the other Japanese brands, and Triumph was below average.

^

To be fair re: the S1000RR, the 2014 (new colors- no word on options yet) is on the way (supposedly this month) and I'm not surprised the sold the floor model (they sold their entire allotment)- they had very little in the showroom (three bikes, I believe, and one was a scooter) when I was there last month.

They did have an HP4 on the floor in early December, but I still don't know if it was a customer's bike (I hadn't made my decision at that point and didn't ask- it looked brand-new, and they let me sit on it- no test-rides were discussed).

The thing is that BMW worldwide sells more touring, dual-sport motorcycles than all manufacturers combined. So without a real breakdown of the numbers, its like I can say we have more people complaining about the Honda Wave 125 than the Keeway RKV200....

With that the Honda Wave 125 sells probably 1000 times, maybe even more than that, better than the Keeway RKV200... But without the breakdown of owners, buyers and who complains its is absolute useless information.

I can say I ride the best and most advanced bike in Thailand, and I can say with absolute honestly that all owners of the bike I ride will support me when I say that the MV Agusta F4RR is the best wonder on two wheels ( less than 20 sold in Thailand). Is that a statistical fact? Absolutely not... Its is just I love my bike and tell you shit, no the F4RR is really the best bike... but it cost the best price also...

I have two BMW bikes and I have nothing to complain about....for 6 years... fact

The numbers represent the percentage of bike owners who had to bring their motorcycles back to the dealer for some sort of problem- it's not simply about 'complaints', and it's hardly 'useless information'.

Your anecdotal experience means nothing in the face of these numbers- even with a BMW, there is still a 70% chance that you wouldn't experience an issue, but the reality is that a fairly high percentage of owners do- fact (and that fact is giving me second thoughts about buying a pricey BMW in Thailand). Your straw man fallacy regarding your MV is a silly addition to this thread.

^

Yeah- I had questions about enabling the DDC for the front fork (via a pricey sensor) and never got the promised info- they're going to have to work a bit to reassure me.

^

I also haven't heard from them in a while re: the HP4 I have a deposit on- as I'm hoping to delay taking delivery until March I'm OK with it, but they said they would be contacting me the beginning of February and no word yet- it's a bit of a concern, and with bike prices dropping steadily, I'm looking around a bit.

This survey would have polled North American motorcycle owners (where proper factory-authorized service wouldn't be a problem), so the problems that plague Thailand and other similar countries wouldn't enter into it as far as repairs go- the article did mention that accessories are a major factor, so that could explain some of the BMW discrepancy (many owners of their bikes trick them out quite a bit).

I knew they didn't have the best rep for quality control, but the new article from Consumer Reports is pretty damning:

Interesting how Kawi and Yamaha finished ahead of Honda (no mention of Suzuki):

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx

What price are we presented with for a Super Duke?

The Super Duke R is the dogs <deleted>.

A couple grand shy of 1.4mil (1.397mil, I believe)- it's way more than double US MSRP- KTM is really taking advantage on the SD- for ~1.1mil it would at least be in the same import tariff ballpark as other big bikes (except Ducati, who also gouges on their superbikes).

It's ok; hopefully you remember the Buell motorcycles (Blast, Lightning, Cyclone, 1125©R, Ulysses, Firebolt). Erik Buell had his ties severed with Harley Davidson and started his own company. They had a ton of success last year in AMA racing and will be racing in WSB this year.

Great! Where can we buy one of these American superbikes?

Where can you get any bike model that isn't officially imported into Thailand? You'd have to order one through a grey-market importer- there are several Buells in LOS- no doubt the new EBR bikes will make their way in sooner or later (not that I would buy any bike- American, Italian, Japanese, etc- that didn't have at least a minimal support structure here as getting parts and proper service would be difficult).

Considering how well Ducati and BMW are doing in Thailand, there will probably be a (small) market for another ~1.5m bike.

Actually, the new EBR suoerbike was the first bike I thought of as far as the new breed of American sportbikes go- if you've been keeping up with what's current for the last 18 months or so, you'd know about it- unless you actually make an effort to keep up with what's going on in the world of motorcycles beyond Thai-based forums and media (personally I have online subscriptions to Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Sport Rider, Fast Bikes, and Superbike) you're going to miss quite a bit.

I was given a good point from my father many years ago when I first started driving & riding: "treat every other road user as an idiot and always have an escape plan"

The more miles/kilometers in the saddle, the more your road craft gets honed. Also the reason I do more road skill courses at the track to improve/refresh my handling, time, speed, distance awareness. You're never too old for a refresher course, just to get your mindset right,

Exactly- knowledge is power- for the vast majority of people, once they can drive a car reasonably competently, they're done as far as training is concerned- good motorcyclists constantly strive to become better riders, and hone their roadcraft throughout their riding careers, which only serves to keep them safer on two wheels.

^ &^^

So have your ungraded bikes and increased rider skills worked out to your benefit or detriment as far as your overall safety is concerned? Would you say you're inherently safer than the unskilled locals and tourists who are sharing the road with you due to your knowledge of how to handle an emergency situation, or have your upgraded abilities somehow put you in more danger by encouraging you to ride in a more unsafe manner than you did when you were less skilled?

I wouldn't bother with a 'bike A/C' during a 2-3 hour back-road ride, but for a long touring day (that included stretches of heavy traffic) it could be great- at the moment it looks like it takes up too much precious cargo space, but if it can be made smaller (which might not be possible- I don't know how small an A/C compressor can go and still be effective) it could make a huge difference to the condition of the rider during a big day of traveling.

WOW - when will we see an ashtray?

I've already got the cigarette lighter (well, the plug at any rate;)).

^^

I think you're the one that has a little trouble understanding the argument as far as statistics are concerned, but that's OK. Also, I didn't point out (carefully or otherwise) a delay in your replying- that was another poster who wasn't even referring to you- this again goes to my point that you fail to adequately process the points to which you are responding, or even bother to read entire posts.

'Pushing yourself' isn't dependent on skill level (there are riders with no discernible skill riding way too fast for conditions on every road in LOS), but being a safe rider is wholly dependent on skill level. No one feels '100% safe'- I personally feel safer having worked on my skills than I did when I was an inexperienced rider on the streets of Tokyo- I am most certainly safer than one of your 'skill-free' riders who you seem to think will sail through their riding lives without incident. Your '4-wheeled miles' mean next-to-nothing in the context of motorcycling (as do mine, or anyone's).

I agree there's a lot of crap (macho or otherwise) on this forum- there's quite a bit of it on this thread (though I'm sure we'd disagree on the source...)

I didn't see anyone 'merely quoting accident statistics'- in fact, you were the one who brought up statistics in the first place- I used them to support my points- you had nothing to support yours.

As far as 'Enough!' goes, I'll post and reply as I see fit- please feel free to attenuate yourself (or not) though.

Wow- it sure looks strange (and it's not cheap at the equivalent of 45K baht before the import tax hit) but it's a great idea- no doubt the units will get smaller over time (if this one proves to be popular)- a black hose would sure be a lot less noticeable...

Good find.