RubberSideDown

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You brought up the topic, and you also said that the statistics don't favor my argument, when indeed they do- you haven't posted any statistics of your own to support your point, though. If statistics don't mean anything, perhaps you shouldn't continually reference them (the only reason I first checked them was because you said they disproved what I had to say).

We're not talking about cars/trucks- that's another straw man fallacy- you need to stick to the point-at-hand to make a coherent argument. Yes, bikes are more dangerous than cars- how is that relevant to your point?

The point of the slow-motion accident was brought up by you, in reference to your wife's incident on a muddy road (which didn't support your side in any way)- regardless, you can reach speeds of 100kph on most scooters, and you don't need skill to ride at that speed- you do, however, need skill to stay as safe as possible at any speed. Unskilled riders get in over their heads with speed- skilled riders do that as well, but with skill comes a higher ability to save yourself. Your wife could just as easily been riding 40mph regardless of her skill level- the throttle doesn't know who's twisting it.

An 'accident' on a bike would be defined as a mishap requiring some degree of first aid or medical attention, where the injury requires at least a few days to heal- you can't dismiss anything short of a broken bone as 'insignificant'- any degree of serious road rash or heavy bruising or straining of extremities definitely counts- either can send you to the emergency room and require follow-up treatment. You wouldn't consider the incident described in the OP (including a pic of the injury) to be a 'significant accident'? I certainly would- that injury will be disabling in the short-term and will take quite a while to heal.

Senna was paid specifically for both his skills AND his willingness to drive in an extremely high-risk fashion- why you think his example is relevant to this topic is a mystery- a skilled rider obeys the rule-of-thumb of using about 7/10ths of his riding skill level on the street (and 10/10ths of his safety skill)- Senna was on a track driving at 100% doing 190mph when he went off.

While I can usually see both sides of an argument, in your case all I see is a continually shifting defense of an untenable point. Yes, driving slowly is generally safer than riding too fast, but regardless of your speed, greater skill will always work to your benefit. A skilled rider will always be safer than an unskilled rider at a given speed- it is NOT a 'conundrum'.

Most motorcycle accidents are relatively minor when compared to permanent incapacitation or death.

You keep drawing a new line in the sand for your argument (now it's not 'accidents' but 'severity of accidents'- again, the vast majority of road deaths in Thailand are on scooters, which are of course the predominant two-wheeled vehicle). If you spent time on any of the Thai-based big-bike forums, you'd know what a relative rarity a death on a large-displacement bike is, where on scooters it's a dozens-or-times-everyday occurrence. When you're not wearing any safety gear, an accident at any speed can be significant in terms of injury- a tip-over in the mud at a virtual stand-still is another straw man fallacy (as is the example of Senna, who was paid millions of dollars to push it to the absolute limit, which is hardly 'irrelevant')- a low-side at 30kph has the capacity rip you up or break your bones (or kill you if you're not wearing a helmet).

'Shouting' at you and posting in caps to make sure you actually read a point (which it seems you often don't before responding) are two different things.

Again, you misquote statistics- regarding women, they tend to have a disproportionate percentage of accidents, even though they make up a lower percentage of riders (though males might die at a greater rate- there were no numbers so it's only speculation)- see below:

19. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly over-represented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly under represented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycle riders are significantly over represented in the accident statistics.

The bottom line is that skilled riders crash less often than unskilled riders- your claims regarding 'skill-free' riders not having accidents (you claimed the vast majority go through their live injury-free on their bikes, which isn't even close to true) are utterly without any basis in fact.

Your best option to stay safe on the road is to increase your skills as a rider- riding around unskilled means that not only are the other people on the road potential hazards, but you have the increased risk of being a hazard to yourself. Increased skills don't mean you'll drive too fast or with less caution- they mean you'll have a better chance to avoid an accident because you'll be more in control of both the bike and yourself.

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Now you're becoming desperate- you have no statistics to back you up so you disparage mine, and yet you claimed that statistics didn't support my position in previous posts (when they clearly do)- now you're just making up numbers with absolutely no basis in fact. Do statistics have validity only if they support your argument, but mean nothing in support of anyone else's? You can't have it both ways- you brought statistics into it- mine are real, yours are fabricated.

Read this carefully:

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS ARE UNSKILLED RIDERS. RIDER TRAINING HAS PROVEN TO REDUCE THE INCIDENCE OF ACCIDENTS.

In other words, good riders crash less often than poor riders.

The rider errors that tend to cause accidents are rookie mistakes- braking error, errors made in turns, etc- sure, experienced riders have accidents and well, but, as they know how to avoid these errors, they are inherently safer.

If your claim had any validity, the above wouldn't be the case.

If you take 10,000,000 riders in Thailand, do you actually believe that only 10,000 of them have had accidents? Are you kidding? Do you really live in LOS? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find that many (with a few years of riding experience) who haven't had an accident.

You don't need skill to ride fast- anyone can do it- you need skill to ride fast safely. There are thousands of kids on scooters right now who have their throttles pinned, and they have no training or skills.

Ayrton Senna was RACING, not riding on the street- do you understand the concept of a straw man fallacy?

No skills mean you are going to get hurt sooner or later- you can have it from here, Allan- your posts speak volumes about your own knowledge and experience (or lack thereof) as far as motorcycling in concerned.

One thing TV has given me is a real insight into why the roads in Thailand are so dangerous, and it sure isn't all the fault of the Thais.

Here are some statistics I found (which are actually on my side):

From a US study analyzing motorcycle accident statistics from 2006 done by the University of Southern California- they point out that lack of rider skill is a major contributing factor:

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

4. In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide out and fall due to over braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

23. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly under represented in the accident data.

26. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would over brake and skid the rear wheel, and under brake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to counter steer and swerve was essentially absent.

33. Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked.

Statistics are really not on you side in this argument.

The vast majority of deaths and serious injuries happen to people with some riding skills, whereas the skill free people who trundle to work every day at 20mph, go their whole lives with no injuries.

The biggest bunch of baloney I have ever read here

I can't even believe you typed that

To me that reads as 'the better a rider you are, the more dangerous a rider you are', which seems a bit incongruous.

There are four international hospitals on the small island of Samui- their stock-in-trade and the main reason for their existence is 'skill-free' foreign riders (many of whom are low-side prodigies in accidents that don't involve another vehicle- leg and arm injuries are a favorite), and the government hospital handles the 'skill-free' Thai riders- the riders who have a bit of skill are much less likely to see the inside of an ER.

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Your point is easy to see- you feel skill/ability = being compelled to ride too fast for road conditions- I feel skill/ability = the ability to stay safer regardless of road conditions or speed.

You'd be very hard-pressed to find a Thai who hasn't had at least one accident in their lives- in fact, I think it would be very difficult for you to find one of your imagined 'tens of millions' (which means nearly every rider in the country) who hasn't had a get-off. Thailand has one of the worst accident rates in the world, and that's mostly due to lack of skill (often combined with alcohol). Few go through their lives with no injuries- that true of most riders and many drivers- if you're on the road long enough, the odds greatly favor your having some sort of accident (though I'd like to see the statistics you say show otherwise).

Hopefully you understand that excessive speed points to lack of ability- as I said before, anyone can twist a throttle- excessive speed is usually what hurts or kills unskilled riders- skilled riders might ride faster, but they attenuate that speed for road conditions- you can be fast and safe- they aren't mutually exclusive.

Riding cautiously is fine, but the skill to overcome 'survival reactions' (where you need to do something counter-intuitive like giving it gas even though hitting the brakes seems like the right thing to do, even though being on the brakes will increase your likelihood of a crash in some scenarios)- you need to have these things in your skill-set, and you need to learn them. Riding slowly with proper riding skills behind you is way safer than plodding along cluelessly.

Your karate analogy is completely misplaced- if you're going 45mph and a car pulls out in front of you, you have no choice but to engage (just riding slowly won't save you from this kind of situation)- you need to know how to best use your brakes, how to find and reach a exit point (if available), etc- your teacher was referring to the alternate possibility of avoiding the problem entirely- well, that often impossible. If you know what to do, your chances of survival increase because sometimes engagement is the only option.

I often ride my Wave in traffic- my skills help keep me off the pavement (and I learned from the accident I had on mine 11 years ago)- I sure don't ride it too fast (maybe 60kph max), but I ride it with the same awareness with which I ride my bigger bike- my skill-set isn't dependent upon my machine.

The same guy I mentioned above said a stock Kawasaki 636 shock will fit, and they run about $50 used on eBay (from people who have upgraded their stock components), and it's way better than what comes with the FZ-09.

A friend in the States has two of them (among so many other bikes you wouldn't believe it...)- he says they need a new shock and forks (or at least heavier fork springs if you want to stick to a budget) as they're sprung a little soft- they also respond well to an ECU re-flash- no complaints about the motor at all- it looks like a great bike.

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You generally don't have much skill or ability when you're 17-21 (not that there aren't those that do)- that's why that age group has such a high insurance rate- that's the time when the learning curve is the steepest.

Ability will serve to save you, not hurt you- riding unsafely for the road conditions is what causes problems.

The number one cause of motorcycle accidents (by a very wide margin) is rider error- the situations you're referring to are brought on due to a lack of good judgment, not a surplus of ability, but any rider can get into that sort of situation. I completely disagree that a high level of skill won't help you in Thailand (or anywhere)- do you really believe that? Knowing how to make the best use of your brakes, honing your sense of looking where you want to go rather than target fixating on the object in your path, being able to read the possible actions of motorists, etc are all the things that make up the skill set that will keep you alive. Most riders (certainly not all) who get killed did something stupid, and that doesn't point to ability. Go to Phuket or Samui, and you'll see some of the worst, most dangerous riders in Thailand, and none of them have a scrap of ability.

Basically, you're saying that being a good rider makes you a dangerous rider, when exactly the opposite is true- high ability doesn't push you into doing something dangerous, but rather it lets you know how to avoid that danger- at whatever speed you now ride, if your skills improve, you'll be safer- it wouldn't mean you would have to push yourself beyond what's prudent- a good rider has control of himself.

Schumacher isn't a good example- he got in over his head on the non-groomed snow between runs, where he had no business being - if he had more ability or judgment (instead of just thinking he did), he very well wouldn't have had his accident, but he went beyond his skill level- the lower your skill level, the more likely it is that you'll exceed it- the better (which goes hand-in-hand with smarter) rider you are, the less likely you'll have a problem (though not everything is within our control, which is why we should gear-up).

I've been riding a long time, and my main goal is always to improve my skills and ability (not to ride 'faster', but to ride safer)- it was my primary focus the first time I swung a leg over a bike, and it remains so today more than two decades later- I practice braking drills, run the same turns in different ways to find the best way through them, read books and watch videos on technique, and I've had instruction at a track and would really like to do so again someday soon- if you don't want to be a better rider, then you probably shouldn't be on a motorcycle in the first place.

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You have to take into account that your bike wasn't much of a handler and had mediocre brakes the day it rolled off the line- it certainly hasn't improved with age (I rode a very similar bike in Japan- it's actually what I learned to ride on nearly 25 years ago), and you can't compare it to a more modern bike- I have no doubt you would be amazed at how well you can maneuver (and in how short a distance you can stop) with a newer bike.

A sportbike is a totally different animal- it's made to be ridden hard- when you approach the edge (of either the bike's capabilities or your riding skills) bad things can happen- it's certainly up to the rider to know all limits, but you need to know the limits of whatever bike you're on, Wave or superbike. That said, you still need to gear up decently regardless of the bike you ride- a 45mph accident can completely destroy or kill you. That doesn't mean you need to wear a full leather suit on the way to 7/11 aboard your Click, but you need to at least take a minimum of precautions.

'Ability' certainly isn't anyone's downfall- you can exhibit excellent ability regardless of what you ride, from tiny scooter on up- that ability will serve to save you in many scenarios- what ends up hurting you is either riding beyond your abilities or getting into a situation through which there is no escape- higher ability increases this 'escape margin', though. No argument that higher speed decreases that margin, but so do poor brakes and suspension.

BTW- everyone rides differently in the rain or in slick conditions- if I'm caught in it, I actually have a 'rain mode' traction control setting.

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I'm not that hairy, but I screamed and cursed at least as much.

That's a big problem with scooters- they don't get much respect, but they can bite really hard.

My worst get-off was when I was riding my Wave- wound debridement is exactly as much fun as you would expect...

Can imagine what you went through. I'll take a broken bone over road rash any day of the week.

It compares favorably with getting your chest waxed (which I experienced when a friend who opened a spa needed a test-pilot to try out a package aimed at couples- my wife got an herbal scrub, and I got tortured)- it was like getting struck by lightning forty or fifty times in the same spot (the fact the girl forgot to apply a numbing cream first didn't help).

Frankly, I can't recommend either one- I learned a lesson about gear with the first, and a lesson about listening to my wife with the second- 'Come on- it will be fun'.

That's a big problem with scooters- they don't get much respect, but they can bite really hard.

My worst get-off was when I was riding my Wave- wound debridement is exactly as much fun as you would expect...

Is anyone going to be attending this event over the weekend on Koh Samui (though it looks like more of an HD crowd rather than sportbikes):

It's not illegal to import motorcycle parts for the purpose of building a motorcycle- riding that bike on public roads might not be completely legitimate, of course, but you can bring in and build whatever you want as far as bikes go- the OP is not describing any sort of illegal activity.

I find it hard to believe he would ride without a helmet as well (though if he wasn't wearing one, the helmet might be in the intact pannier, which could be why it's not visible in the photos)- as said before, he could also have been wearing a less-protective 3/4 helmet- it's also possible he was struck when he was off the bike- we'll probably never know for sure.

It's a sad situation regardless.

Note it's been reported he was identified and his family had been notified.

Apparently the rider was from Switzerland, and was based in (or at least started his ride from) Chiang Mai.

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Probably not with all other gear (including gloves, which generally go on after a helmet is secured or are removed before it's taken off) in place.