RubberSideDown

I'm not sure that your point is, Dave- I responded to a post that said it's the fault of the driver behind 100% of the time- that's not the case, and I noted an example. Yes, it's almost always that driver's fault, but there are cicumstances where the driver in front bears some, most, or all of the responsibility.

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License issues aside, in the US it depends on several factors- it's a case of 'comparative negligence'- I've looked into this before when it was brought up on another site, and the driver in front has a duty to the driver behind as far as care is concerned- if the accident could have been avoided if the driver in front hadn't needlessly jammed on his brakes, he bears a high degree of responsibility for what happened as this counts as negligence. If brake lights weren't working or the driver slowed for a turn without signaling, he's liable even if struck by a following car. There are several law-based websites that give examples.

My point is that it's not always 100% the fault of the driver behind (though is usually is)- the driver in front can be at fault.

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It has a range of adjustability, but that doesn't mean it will suit the rider's needs- the stock spring is adjustable as well, but that didn't help, did it? Compressing it too much limits the travel, which makes for a harder ride, and not giving it enough compression (in the case of a too-heavy spring) could lead to a pogo-stick effect.

The maximum rating is one thing- it's the minimum that you need to be concerned with with a 105 N/mm-150kg spring- if it's in the acceptable range (which it may well be) great, but a bit of research is required before installation.

Actually, the person following you has the right to a reasonable expectation of your driving behavior- by that, I mean that if you jam on your brakes both without warning and reason and are hit by the person behind you, it's your fault.

There was a good example in the legal section of 'Fast Bikes' recently- a man teaching his daughter how to drive wanted her to feel the ABS, so he instructed her to brake as hard as possible on a dual-carriage way without checking behind first, causing a bike to crash- the driver was found liable. In a non-emergency situation, the brakes have to be applied with respect to road conditions.

There's also the popular road-rage-inspired 'brake-check'.

It's also possible for the bike to be over-sprung if you go for a spring that's too heavy (meaning your body-weight wouldn't be able to compress it enough to be in the optimal range). If you ride primarily two-up, the heavier spring would likely be the best choice, but if not, the lighter one would be the one to go for. The guy I mentioned specifically noted the heavier spring as being too much as he rides mostly solo- he weighs ~105kg.

Research it a bit more before making your final choice- the Ducati web boards must have some info- I would toss up a thread over there if I were you.

The H2 is the street version, and it's got 200hp- the 300hp version is track-only and is the H2R.

On a track it's a bit heavy and likely wouldn't do as well against a supercar as the Panigale or S1000RR did- in a straight line, the results would be typical, in that the bike rules up to about150mph or so, when aerodynamics take over and the car would begin to gain (and pass if there's enough road).

How do you sit on the bike with it upright, off the stand, motionless, and with both feet on the pegs and do that?

Stick my arm out and hold against the wall.

If the ounces - if that - not resting on the bike suspension makes any difference, in a rider weight w/gear of close to 100kg, I would be surprised.

Then you're not in your proper riding position and front/rear bias is affected- this is critical on a sportbike, though not as much on a cruiser. If 'close enough' if what you want, fine, but why not get it as close to perfect as possible?

This is a good video (part of a series on setting up motorcycle suspension) for finding the correct sag measurements:

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How do you sit on the bike with it upright, off the stand, motionless, and with both feet on the pegs and do that? You need a couple seconds for the bike to balance while you sit on it- pulling your feet off the ground momentarily won't give you an accurate measurement as it needs to properly settle into position. To do it right you need assistance.

You might be able to get somewhat close, but when millimeters count, accuracy is important.

It's very difficult to do by yourself. You need to get the unladen numbers first before setting anything (which means wheels off the ground so the suspension is completely unloaded), and you'll need an assistant (one that's strong enough to hold the bike up while you sit on it) so the measurement can be taken of the amount of laden sag (and you'll need someone else to take the readings).

This article gives the basics of setting your bike up within the proper parameters.

Oops- edited- forget to link the article: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/suspension-setup-101-part-i-setting-sag

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still, i feel it is not fair RSD.

I see your point- for that kind of money, a rider should be able to get a bike suited for him, but I can also see how it's not feasible for the manufacturer to set up a bike differently on the production line- at least there's a fix that's not crazy expensive.

A lot also depends on your riding style- speed obviously has much to do with it, but the bottom line is that the bike is somewhat under-sprung for bigger guys- I'd order the beefier spring if I had a Diavel, and as I mentioned my friend said it feels like a completely different bike after the swap and he's very happy he did it.

My bike is an import made for the American market (meaning more 'full-figured' riders;))- the suspension suits my ~92kg-with-gear frame, though I've read on the various boards that guys over 100kg are at the point of being let down a bit by it, and over 110kg necessitates a change if it's going to be ridden hard through the twisties. I also know a guy who has a 14R that weighs 65kg with gear (maybe), and he complains that it's not very compliant for him as he cant compress it enough (though he's been saying that about various bikes for the 15 years I've known him:)).

Yes- their 'solution' was to use cheaper, softer suspension (though it's still decent quality like Showa, but it's not their top stuff) that's geared more toward comfort and which can accommodate a broader range of riders, but doesn't offer the high performance levels that Ducati is trying to offer (higher-end suspension has a narrower range of adjustment). All the bikes you mentioned let the rider down at speed compared to something like a super-sport 600cc or literbike, and all will exhibit the same issues that the Diavel has with a heavier rider.

I.e., this is what RideApart said about the 500:

Whats Bad:

The suspension is under damped for truly fast riding. Having said that, this is not intended to be a smaller CBR600RR-style race replica thats only good for canyon carving. Its an everyday fun, pretty quick bike that the vast majority of riders will actually be able to ride quickly thanks to its accessible nature.

Ground clearance is also somewhat lacking if youre really pressing on. The payoff is the kind of comfort more focused bikes can only dream of.

They also talk about the shortcomings of the 650 suspension in their review of it, and nearly every review of the ER6N mentions the relatively weak suspension. These are very good bikes for their intended purpose and price-point, but they don't come close to suiting riders from 40kg-120kg when the speed increases- no bikes do as there just isn't enough adjustment available. To properly accommodate heavier riders, Ducati Thailand would have to use components that wouldn't work optimally for the majority of the (lighter) people buying their bikes.

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I believe that was a common complaint.

Thais on average weigh 59kg (this includes both men and women- while the average for only men would be higher, my guess is that the disparity when compared to men of western countries would be greater)- Americans weigh 82kg- that's a pretty big variation, and it would be impossible to set up a single suspension component that would be suitable for the majority of both rider populations, especially with a bike that has a low seat height (which further limits the amount of adjustability and travel).

Apparently (according to Ducati) the stock spring for the Asian market is set for a rider that's a max of 80kg geared up, so you definitely max it out.

so the spring is set for an 80 kg rider but can be adjusted for a heavier rider,not a case of the Asian market getting a completely different spring from the rest of the world,

I'm not sure- I don't own the bike and got my info from someone who went through Ducati- it might be sprung on the soft side regardless of where it's sold.

A rear suspension has a limited range of adjustability- a rule-of-thumb is that the spring will compress about one inch (25mm) per 100lbs (45kg) of rider weight, and there's a point where it will be maxed out as obviously it's not infinite in travel length- what I was told (and which is borne out by two riders of Diavels in LOS) is that the stock spring isn't set up to be properly adjusted for a rider who weighs over 80kg geared-up, as a rider above this weight compresses the spring to the point where travel is limited and the bike rides hard and bottoms out on rough road.

Sure, it would be great if everyone could be accommodated by a single suspension component regardless of their weight, but it would be impossible due to the limited space and the fact that riders will vary in weight from ~50kg to way over 100kg- in order to put a custom spring on prior to delivery, either the bike would have to be set up with it on the assembly line (not impossible, but I don't know of any manufacturer that offers this option as far as mass-produced bikes go)- that leaves a buyer who's out of the weight-range of the stock suspension to have it set p for himself, which can be done for less that 15K and is the only current option.

A suspension set up specifically for heavier riders can also leave out lighter riders in the sense that they don't have the weight to compress it properly to give the suspension the correct amount of sag- I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some manufacturers use different springs for different regions.

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A spring will cover a fairly broad range, but it can't cover everybody- Thais and other Asians that weigh 80kg or more are definitely on the upper-end of the scale, and the way it's currently delivered likely accommodates at least 90% of the domestic market, though it comes up short for much of the Westerrer market- if I worked at Ducati and made the decision for how the bike would be sprung, I think I'd have gone for the way it's currently set up for Thailand.

If you're a lot bigger than the average Thai and want to ride a Ducati in LOS, at least there's a fix for it.

Apparently (according to Ducati) the stock spring for the Asian market is set for a rider that's a max of 80kg geared up, so you definitely max it out.

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Not a bad idea with the Honda H.I.S.S. security system- the guy I sold my old Honda to promptly lost the only key and ended up swapping out the ignition system as he couldn't source a replacement. Even in a case where Honda can supply a replacement key they're stupidly expensive.

I talked to a friend who owns a Diavel today- he swapped out the stock rear spring for a heavier one (he's a big guy) yesterday, and he said it transformed the ride for him. He couldn't remember the rating, but he said its the next heavier one (there's one more that's probably geared for riders who usually go two-up).

It was less than 10K through Ducati Thailnd, plus another 3K (which sounded cheap) to the shop that swapped it out (not through Ducati, but done by a local wrench who specializes in them)- it's probably your cheapest option for setting up the bike for your weight.

I'm there at the moment and will likely be on the bike this weekend- if you were in town I'd keep an eye out for you.

Are you in CM at the moment?

I commuted through Tokyo traffic for years on 250kg bikes- obviously Bangkok traffic has a different dynamic, but there are basic similarities- if you're riding a bike strictly to save time in heavy, stop-and-go traffic and competing in the stop-light rally, a smaller bike will get you to your destination faster than a 'big' (which in this example means anything larger than a 125cc scooter) bike, and it will take less effort as far as rider input goes- if you have stretches where the road opens up during your commute and cars and larger bikrs are passing scooters at will, then you'd likely be better off sticking with what you've got. If you want to ride a motorcycle, the clutch and shifter are a fact of life unless you go for one of the auto-shifting bikes already mentioned- if it's bothering you now, it will likely continue to bother you. What others might find acceptable is food-for-thought, but everybody is different in that area.

Frankly, I think your experience has already supplied you with the answer you're looking for.

The dealer offers the remapping free, but once done it can't be reversed so I am a bit reluctant. I have got used to the quick throttle response now, always used to long for a quick action throttle for the Street Triple so undecided.

The bike has also been recalled to change part of the wiring loom. Not got around to it yet.

Think I will keep the throttle the way it is until I read more reports.

Cheers

Why can't it be reversed? It's just an upload of a different ECU map- if they have the tools to change it, they can also change it back. I've got several maps for my bike and can change them at will (Kawasaki and Yamaha use a similar interface), and I don't have the resources of a dealer.

Is it a warranty restriction? If it's not a recall, it shouldn't be a problem.

The point is that I had a completely different experience at BMW- they had a bike (HP4) ready for me to view, the salesman was knowledgable about it and either knew the information I needed or had it readily available, and they brought the head mechanic out front so I could talk to him and find out if he knew what he was doing (based on our conversation, he did- I quizzed him on the optional 2D front sensor, and was surprised when he had information on it- as getting the DDC worked on in the event of a failure was my biggest worry, it really set my mind at ease as far as service was concerned), and they showed me the service area- I even met with the GM, who doesn't ordinarily get too involved in the bike side of the business but sat down to work out a couple options I was interested in- it was the complete opposite of my experience at Ducati, which is why I have a 50K deposit on file at BMW (which will likely go toward an S1000RR if they can get me one with all the options- I passed on the HP4, but the back issues I was having have been resolved and I can handle the ergonomics of a literbike now). I could possibly be persuaded by the new Panigale, but I'm not going to kiss their ass to be accommodated at the dealership.

I remember when you went to BMW- it was at the end of the year when all their 2013 models were sold and their 2014 models weren't due until February- I'm not shocked they didn't follow up if you dealt with a particular salesman who's no longer there- I looked and sat on an S1000RR owned by one of their employees, and it was fine with him, and perhaps that's the bike they were going to show you. I don't think what may have happened a few years ago is still relevant, and they've improved their service.

In any case, this shows why the initial experience is so important, and it sounds like BMW screwed up with you, as Ducati did with me- I rode up to Ducati CM on a decent bike, dressed in quality gear, and asked about their flagship motorcycle (and I approached them with a friendly demeanor, which is important as a customer- I want to seem like someone who's easy to deal with, which I basically am, and all I want is some professionalism from the staff)- if I worked there, the other salesman would have had footprints on their backs as I would have run over them to get to me- as it was, they couldn't have cared less.