RubberSideDown

Which manufacturers leave their fueling and ignition maps unencrypted and exposed? I don't think Honda would do that on any CBR model- I know that the CBR1000RR, for example, took a lot of work to crack. Even most dealers don't have the ability to read an ECU beyond engine diagnostics, and they have to send customer ECUs out for reflashing. For warranty reasons Honda wants to keep unauthorized people out of their ECUs. The new R1 is supposed to offer some user accessibility, but I don't know of any others that do that. I'd be interested to know of some, though- I think it's a good idea from an owner perspective, but I can see why manufacturers wouldn't do it.

If the CBR650 has easy access, there would be information on it somewhere- I can't find anything beyond the shop mentioned in the OP.

Basically, there's only one way to reflash an ECU- the ECU first has to be hacked so the original map can be accessed and downloaded- changes are made as the tuner deems necessary, and the new map (which is an altered version of the original- if it's not, it won't work) is uploaded- there's no simpler way to make changes to it. You've either got the entire map, or none of it.

Fueling can be changed via a Power Commander or similar unit (though not timing and other settings), but the ECU remains unchanged.

My point is that unless you've fully hacked your way into an ECU and can access the stock map, you can't make any changes to it, basic or otherwise- it's not like fitting a blind piggy-back unit like a Power Commander into the process, where it's basically hit-or-miss guesswork where fuel is added or subtracted and the actual value being altered is never known (in fact, a PC can be obviated entirely with a full ECU tune- I'm considering dumping mine). With full ECU access, the tuner knows exactly what's being changed, and an experienced tuner can look at the stock map and see where the most good can likely be done before he alters anything.

As far as ignition timing goes, that's were you can really screw up a bike by making incorrect changes- seeing the original values is really important for doing it properly, and it's why you have to be careful using just any reflash

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The maps will be basically the same in the sense that they're calculated using RPM and throttle position- the increments can of course be less fine than what I posted above, but even if there were half or a third as many values to deal with, it's still a fairly sophisticated process involving hundreds of cells and possible changes.

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If there's a 'canned map' (meaning a pre-existing one instead of a custom one) for your particular bike with the same (and I mean exactly the same, i.e. using the same brand and model of exhaust) mods, then there's no reason not to use it- there might be very slight differences related to temperature or elevation, but not enough to worry about unless you live at the top of a mountain. My bike was actually tuned by a tuner in Canada- he personally owns the same bike wi the same exhaust system and is running the same PC map as me, so I used his map with some slight changes for the local environment, and it's spot-on- I doubt a local tuner could have custom-made something better.

Not only do you need to fully hack into an ECU to do a reflash, you also need the stock .bin files to make changes (these files have been accessed with Kawasaki, which is why it's easy to work on a new map for one- Honda so far has been more difficult, and it's why people who wanted to upgrade the restricted CBR1000RR models they bought at Big Wing had to buy new ECUs instead of flashing the existing unit).

Here's the stock 1st gear secondary throttle plate opening sequence map for my bike for the low power mode- note there are maps for the five other gears (plus a completely different map to deal with for high power mode), plus maps for fueling and ignition, as well as settings for rev limit, top-speed limit, traction control settings, etc- unless the tuner has full access to the stock map, he's not going to be able to make proper changes. It's way more involved than than you think- each separate value on this map has to be modified (or at least checked) to do it properly. Also, there was a power-limiting 'safety mode' in my ECU that had to be overwritten, and without a full hack into the ECU it couldn't have been done.

This is a reading directly from my ECU- there are over 700 values which can be modified for first gear alone (though the gearing maps can be unified)- then there are over 700 for fueling (which can remain stock if you use a Power Commander, which I do), and then over 700 for ignition- you get the idea;)- proper ECU tuning is a fairly difficult process compared to setting up a fueling map on a PC:

I'm not sure- I agree it's confusing. It might actually be some instructions for the mechanic doing the swap as it specifically mentions 'recommended assembly' rather than recommended settings. I would be surprised if they expect anyone to run with zero pre-load.

It also might be to let the user know that he'll still have full adjustability after making the change.

No one on the Ducati board knows the deal?

Well, you started the disagreement, Dave- all I did was cite an example that showed the driver to the rear isn't always at fault, and you wanted to argue the point. As far as how many of these cases go to court in LOS, it's probably 'zero' as it would likely be settled by insurance companies or privately, even in the case of a fatality. That said, I never mentioned my example being specifically relevant to the Thai system (which it may or may not be) as the poster who brought it up didn't mention Thailand and his comment seemed more general, but, rather, I used it to show that you can't say the driver behind is always 100% in the wrong. In a court case in LOS, though, evidence showing that one driver acted negligently would certainly be admissible and worthy of consideration.

I searched through some legal websites and all said basically the same thing, which was that the driver in front can be found liable in a rear-end collision even in cases where malice (like a brake-check) wasn't an issue. You and I can speak from what we 'know', but we (or at least I) will concede that people in the legal profession have an opinion that counts for more than ours as far as this subject goes, and they formed the basis of my posts.

That's it for me- I'm done with it.

Being cited at the scene and being found guilty/liable in court are two very different things.

I also noted 'comparative negligence', as the driver in front can indeed be found to be to some degree liable for what caused the accident. Yes, the general rule is that the driver behind should be at a safe following distance, but the driver in front also has a responsibility to the drivers behind him- even if a driver is following too closely, it's the responsibility of the driver ahead to take note of this and act appropriately.

Every legal site I checked gives the example of brake light failure or stopping in the middle of the road (in the case of a flat tire or other minor problem that doesn't necessitate coming to an immediate stop) as being examples of the driver who was struck from behind being liable.

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What about the point I noted of brake-lights being out? Is that the fault of the driver behind if he didn't receive the appropriate warning that the brakes had been engaged? What about a driver suddenly turning without signaling? There's no intent to cause harm in either case, but, rather, they're either equipment failures that could easily escape notice or driver error/carelessness.

As I said, there are examples noted on legal websites, and likely other case studies if you care to search for them- I already provided an example (which also wasn't an attempt to cause mischief by the driver in front- it was an error in judgement), and there will certainly be others- it's up to you to search for them if you're curious, though.

I'm not sure that your point is, Dave- I responded to a post that said it's the fault of the driver behind 100% of the time- that's not the case, and I noted an example. Yes, it's almost always that driver's fault, but there are cicumstances where the driver in front bears some, most, or all of the responsibility.

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License issues aside, in the US it depends on several factors- it's a case of 'comparative negligence'- I've looked into this before when it was brought up on another site, and the driver in front has a duty to the driver behind as far as care is concerned- if the accident could have been avoided if the driver in front hadn't needlessly jammed on his brakes, he bears a high degree of responsibility for what happened as this counts as negligence. If brake lights weren't working or the driver slowed for a turn without signaling, he's liable even if struck by a following car. There are several law-based websites that give examples.

My point is that it's not always 100% the fault of the driver behind (though is usually is)- the driver in front can be at fault.

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It has a range of adjustability, but that doesn't mean it will suit the rider's needs- the stock spring is adjustable as well, but that didn't help, did it? Compressing it too much limits the travel, which makes for a harder ride, and not giving it enough compression (in the case of a too-heavy spring) could lead to a pogo-stick effect.

The maximum rating is one thing- it's the minimum that you need to be concerned with with a 105 N/mm-150kg spring- if it's in the acceptable range (which it may well be) great, but a bit of research is required before installation.

Maybe- I wasn't referring to current Chinese bikes, but rather I was noting that the general opinion of early Japanese bikes did indeed have a basis-in-fact- certainly the Chinese bikes are likely better now than they were ten years ago.

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Yeah, but the early 1960s Japanese motorcycles were crap- it took their industry about a decade to reach the standard that was available from US and European manufacturers.

Actually, the person following you has the right to a reasonable expectation of your driving behavior- by that, I mean that if you jam on your brakes both without warning and reason and are hit by the person behind you, it's your fault.

There was a good example in the legal section of 'Fast Bikes' recently- a man teaching his daughter how to drive wanted her to feel the ABS, so he instructed her to brake as hard as possible on a dual-carriage way without checking behind first, causing a bike to crash- the driver was found liable. In a non-emergency situation, the brakes have to be applied with respect to road conditions.

There's also the popular road-rage-inspired 'brake-check'.

It's also possible for the bike to be over-sprung if you go for a spring that's too heavy (meaning your body-weight wouldn't be able to compress it enough to be in the optimal range). If you ride primarily two-up, the heavier spring would likely be the best choice, but if not, the lighter one would be the one to go for. The guy I mentioned specifically noted the heavier spring as being too much as he rides mostly solo- he weighs ~105kg.

Research it a bit more before making your final choice- the Ducati web boards must have some info- I would toss up a thread over there if I were you.

The H2 is the street version, and it's got 200hp- the 300hp version is track-only and is the H2R.

On a track it's a bit heavy and likely wouldn't do as well against a supercar as the Panigale or S1000RR did- in a straight line, the results would be typical, in that the bike rules up to about150mph or so, when aerodynamics take over and the car would begin to gain (and pass if there's enough road).

I use the EBC HH pads- they're worth the money, IMHO- they last pretty long as well.

Have you got a set for a 2013 ZX-14R (ABS) in stock, and how much are they? If you can beat my supplier in the US I might order a set (front and back).

The price is 1,860 per side x 2 = 3,720 Baht - How does this compare, we are the factory distributor for Thailand and provide factory warranty if there were ever any problems.

We would have to order these in as not in stock

It's a bit higher, but not having to pay for overseas shipping (or deal with potential customs hassles) makes it closer.

I'll make an order in a month or so (I don't need them for a while, but I like having them on-hand).

I use the EBC HH pads- they're worth the money, IMHO- they last pretty long as well.

Have you got a set for a 2013 ZX-14R (ABS) in stock, and how much are they? If you can beat my supplier in the US I might order a set (front and back).

How do you sit on the bike with it upright, off the stand, motionless, and with both feet on the pegs and do that?

Stick my arm out and hold against the wall.

If the ounces - if that - not resting on the bike suspension makes any difference, in a rider weight w/gear of close to 100kg, I would be surprised.

Then you're not in your proper riding position and front/rear bias is affected- this is critical on a sportbike, though not as much on a cruiser. If 'close enough' if what you want, fine, but why not get it as close to perfect as possible?

This is a good video (part of a series on setting up motorcycle suspension) for finding the correct sag measurements:

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How do you sit on the bike with it upright, off the stand, motionless, and with both feet on the pegs and do that? You need a couple seconds for the bike to balance while you sit on it- pulling your feet off the ground momentarily won't give you an accurate measurement as it needs to properly settle into position. To do it right you need assistance.

You might be able to get somewhat close, but when millimeters count, accuracy is important.

It's very difficult to do by yourself. You need to get the unladen numbers first before setting anything (which means wheels off the ground so the suspension is completely unloaded), and you'll need an assistant (one that's strong enough to hold the bike up while you sit on it) so the measurement can be taken of the amount of laden sag (and you'll need someone else to take the readings).

This article gives the basics of setting your bike up within the proper parameters.

Oops- edited- forget to link the article: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/suspension-setup-101-part-i-setting-sag

^^^^

still, i feel it is not fair RSD.

I see your point- for that kind of money, a rider should be able to get a bike suited for him, but I can also see how it's not feasible for the manufacturer to set up a bike differently on the production line- at least there's a fix that's not crazy expensive.